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Firewood business...big enough market to run a business?

Started by burnwood, January 09, 2008, 11:11:59 AM

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SwampDonkey

Face cords have been used here, but not suppose to be used as a term for sale of firewood. It even states that in the regulations. But I do know of some people that have been took and likely have no idea about the law. How would they? No one actually sends people a law brochure.  ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

mainiac

I know that here in Maine, a stacked cord is = to 128 cubic ft. 180 cubic ft is also considered a cord if it a tossed cord(not stacked). These are the only legal way of selling firewood and terms of use in Maine according to Maine State Dept of weights and measures.

I had to investigate this a few years back as I felt I got shorted when I bought a truck load of tree length. If I remember correctly,I got 6.5 cord of cut split and stacked out of a 10 cord truck. The driver did right by me as far as giving me back some money, but I was asked not to buy any more from him. Industry standards does allow some shrinkage going from tree length to cut split and stacked, but not that much. The guy I buy from now, I usually get 8.5-9 cord off a 10 cord truck.

Mainiac
Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious.

burnwood

Quote from: mainiac on January 09, 2008, 10:43:18 PM
I know that here in Maine, a stacked cord is = to 128 cubic ft. 180 cubic ft is also considered a cord if it a tossed cord(not stacked). These are the only legal way of selling firewood and terms of use in Maine according to Maine State Dept of weights and measures.

I had to investigate this a few years back as I felt I got shorted when I bought a truck load of tree length. If I remember correctly,I got 6.5 cord of cut split and stacked out of a 10 cord truck. The driver did right by me as far as giving me back some money, but I was asked not to buy any more from him. Industry standards does allow some shrinkage going from tree length to cut split and stacked, but not that much. The guy I buy from now, I usually get 8.5-9 cord off a 10 cord truck.

Mainiac

We've learned that 'loggers' tend to round up when guessing the quantity of firewood on a truck load.  We too ordered 8 cord loads to find out that all said and done it was around five. This is why we have a hard time finding people to delivery wood, we found a really nice guy who is honest and gives us a deal...the only issue with him is he only has wood when he was land cleaning jobs which is not all the time.

Corley5

A cord of logs always cuts to less firewood.  General rule of thumb is 2.5 16" face cords from an average load of hardwood pulp.  Bigger straighter logs will yield almost a full cord.  Smaller crooked logs will yield less.  A sixteen inch face cord equals a 1/3 of a standard cord.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Ron Wenrich

Here's a few numbers to gnaw on.  We have a Multitek processor.  We can produce a trailerload of split wood in about 4 hours if someone is loading logs.  The load holds 13 cords, and sells for $1800 for 14" wood, and a little less for 16".  That is a delivered price to a wholesaler who buys year around.  We also sell log length firewood for about $65/cd.  So, our manufacturing and delivery costs have to be within the $70-75/cd to make it more profitable than delivering logs.

We don't do this all the time.  Equipment and employees that do the processing usually do it when there isn't anything else to do.  So, we don't have some of the overhead you may be looking at.

In addition to the Multitek, we have a self unloading trailer that is also used for mulch, but mostly for firewood.  We also have a log truck and loader for moving logs to the processor. 

The problem I see with your numbers is I don't think you can do it full time on only 250-300 cords, even at retail.  Even at $250/cd, your gross income is only $75,000.  You still have to take out your costs for raw material and operating costs.  You're going to need more volume per employee.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

burnwood

I was just throwing out numbers, if I recall when we actually did the math we would have to product and sell around 2000 cords a year for all of use to work full time.  Producing 2000 is probably not that hard with three guys, delivery it is another story.

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Corley5 on January 10, 2008, 09:00:11 AM
A cord of logs always cuts to less firewood. 

I agree, because it's stacked tighter when split and bucked short.

When we bought tree length from loggers for our own firewood, we paid for 12-14 cords. 12 with self loader, 14 with no loader and we usually came out with 1/4 - 1/2 cord in our favor. By tonnage conversion the loads worked out to 14-16 cords (35,000 - 40,000 kg). You know firewood though, you can stack is 3 times and have different figures each time.  ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ed_K

 In ma. the term cord is used in advertising, when you write out the bill it better be in cubic feet. If you deal in cash and no bill you can get in trouble if a person decide's to hassle you. And here in ma. you deliver some wood you need the commercial license plate,cause dot has fun following pickup's with wood in the back and if it dosen't end up in the plates home of record you going to pay. Also the going fine for over load in a pickup is $250. My 1 ton was registered for11,000# and they where always checking weight and paperwork  >:( .
Ed K

bull

Hey Ed K isn't  Massachusetts wonderful......
We need to know where "burnwood" is from here in the Baystate.

If your in buisness your vehicle has to have commercial tags or if you can get them Farm plates

I got an email from farm bureau today stating that as of November 07 if you're over 10,000 lbs you now need to pay for a federal DOT permit.

diversify you can't live on firewood alone......

beenthere

bull
Go to burnwood's profile, and his pin is on his map...tells you exactly where he is from...if he put it at the right spot... ;D ;D
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

burnwood

Well, we center around Groveland Ma but since it's firewood we delivery all over Ma.  I think our gross weight is under 7500, how can I tell?  We have a small pickup and a dump trailer we use to haul the wood.  When I spoke to the insurance guy about getting a commercial truck he pretty much told me not too because it's so expensive in MA.  He suggested a trailer on a normal truck because we wouldn't need commercial plates and all the insurance that goes along with it.  This is probably wrong advice but having to pay $2000 for insurance, taxes and fees just for commercial stuff put a huge dent in profits.

burnwood

Quote from: bull on January 10, 2008, 09:49:10 PM
Hey Ed K isn't  Massachusetts wonderful......
We need to know where "burnwood" is from here in the Baystate.

If your in buisness your vehicle has to have commercial tags or if you can get them Farm plates

I got an email from farm bureau today stating that as of November 07 if you're over 10,000 lbs you now need to pay for a federal DOT permit.

diversify you can't live on firewood alone......

You don't think a business can survive just on firewood?  I'm assuming once we were up and running we would add on additional things but to start we want to keep it as simple as possible.

Sawyerfortyish

I know one guy around here that gives the wood away . He delivers what he calls about a cord. Then he charges for loading and trucking whatever the going rate for a cord of wood is.
   I also have a multitek processor and will have to agree with those that said its hard to just make it selling firewood. If you have to buy your wood make a living for 3 people and make payments on equipment not to mention all the other things you need and that go wrong thats a lot to bite off and chew

bull

No I don't think you"ll survive on firewood alone.....
Cash flow is a huge issue, sales are very seasonal....  Selling green wood for cash flow is a big mistake, drying firewood is money in the bank, 50% return in 6-8 months just for watching wood dry. You can't get those rates in any bank around here !!!

A decent tractor with a front end loader would be a huge assest to your buisness, Im not sure about a three way partnership for a small startup buisnes...

Furby

I'm positive your gross is well over that.
A truck and trailer have CGVW (Combined Gross Vehicle Weight).
If it's a dump trailer then I'm 99% sure the physical weight of the truck and trailer are at least 7500 pounds, probly more.
You should be able to find the gross rating and CGVW rating of the truck by looking on the driver's door/door frame.
Your trailer should also have a plate listing it's gross weight.

SwampDonkey

Ok, let me get 2000 lbs in here for a ton this time. :D Thanks Ron. ;)


2 cord of  hardwood would be 9000-9600 air dried, 8600 kilned to 12 %, 11000 green. A cord is not a solid 128 ft3 remember.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Wenrich

Cubic foot weights for:

Red oak - 64 (green), 43 (dry)
White oak - 63 (green), 45 (dry)
Hard maple - 56 (green), 44 (dry)
Soft maple - 50 (green), 38 (dry)
Hickory - 64 (green), 50 (dry)
Ash - 48 (green), 42 (dry)
Beech - 54 (green), 45 (dry)
Birch - 57 (green), 43 (dry)
Elm - 54 (green), 35 (dry)

Seems like your giving about 50-60 cu ft of solid wood per cord.  I think I'll buy mine somewhere else.   :D
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

SwampDonkey

Actually about 100 ft3 of solid wood per cord is what I'm allowing. But I forgot to mult by 2000 lbs :D  DOH!
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Wenrich

So, 2 cords of green red oak would weigh 6 tons, and dry would weigh 4 tons.  Your numbers are closer to 1 cord, not 2.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

SwampDonkey

Yup, Ron my brain wasn't working and forgot about mult my 5.5 tons by 2000 lbs  ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

TeaW

Ron,
How many cubic feet to the cord are you allowing. I have seen alot of different charts talking about the weight of wood . I think it varies to different locations. A log trucker told me that there is 1000# difference between southern Ontario and Northen ON, on 1000 bd/ft of logs . Oak grows slower north of here.
I don't go by charts, I cut split, pile and wieght it = 5500 lbs.
But like SD said you could do it 3 times and have that many different answers
TeaW

SwampDonkey

TeaW, did you realize that slow growing oak or ash is actually less dense. Why? The early wood of any species I'm aware of does not change in width, weather it is fast grown or slow grown. The late wood is what matters, and late wood is denser than early wood in ring porous hardwood. Now with hard maple or yellow birch, it wouldn't matter too much, it's diffuse porous, which means the wood pores are uniform throughout the piece. Now with cherry and butternut it's semi-diffuse and does matter somewhat, because the early wood pores are bigger and decrease in size from the beginning of the growth ring toward to end of the late wood.  And wood density varies within a stand of wood, between dominant and suppressed trees. ;) Is this what you had in mind?

Wood moisture changes with the seasons to, don't forget that. It's not a huge difference, but I do know the mills in the past have given a seasonal adjustment for the scale. Don't know if anyone is doing it now, since I have not worked at the marketing board for a few years and have not sold wood. My guess, is it's one price, hopefully averaged. But, in reality, probably forgotten about.

Ron's figures probably come out of Madison, WI and are also published in the  WoodTech Manual. I believe they are standardized figures for weight of wood by species and moisture.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

letsgetitracing

i know for a 100% fact that 8 face cord of dry cut (in august and weighed in october) ash is 8500 lbs we weighed it and stack about 10 loads to check  it had 12 to 15% moisture
Homemade firewood processor, 200 ton log spliter, 322 cat excavator, 966 c cat loader, 3 semis, 11 trailers, 50 ton low boy 12 inch tree chipper 3120xp 394 xp 372 xp 3 365  357 55 rancher 346xp 338xp  stihl 056 mag ms 290 026 echo cs440  4 cs3000's  jonsered 2165 2150

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SwampDonkey

I wasn't far off for 12 % hard maple, yellow birch, beech @ 8600 lbs. ;D Ash and red oak is slightly lighter. ;)

Surprisingly, white ash is lighter when green than hard maple and not so surprising is it doesn't take as long to dry. But air dried wood, I have a hard time grasping that it would be drier than 25%. Might be dry on the surface, but what about deeper inside the stick. And there is a difference in reading end grain versus through the bark. ;)

I would think 12-18% through the bark, and 25-30% on the end grain for air drying. It's wicking through the end grain quicker because that is the most efficient pathway of water if the tree is going to keep from burning up during growth. And as the end dries the flow rate diminished deeper in the stick because of the water saturation point and cell bound water and temperature. And probably some other stuff I haven't thought of. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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