Hanok Style Timber Framed Stable

[bknopf]

Good Evening,

I wanted to start a thread here to showcase a build that I have just begun. Any and all advice and constructive comments are always appreciated. I will also treat this as a sort of introductory thread.

By way of Introduction, I am an ornamental timber framer in the Southern Tier of NY, and have been cutting frames for a number of years. My wife an I just recently bought a small farm that has a horse stable on it. The stable is painfully unusable due to poor design on the previous owner's part. As such, my wife and I decided to gut the entire interior of the barn and redo it.

While I am at it, i decided to go all out and make this frame a highly ornamented frame, because...such things ought to exist and they don't where I live. Go look up Maramures carvings if you want to see what I am aiming at. [edit: This frame is part necessary and part experiment. I am attempting to ascertain the commercial viability of hewing non square timbers for ornamental purposes. In addiation, I am looking to gain a lot more experience with hanok framing so to be able to more effieciently cut and raise such frames.]

Below are some of the initial mockups. The exterior walls are all current and existing. I am just putting the frame inside. There will be floor joists that support a hay loft on top of the beams. Points if you can correctly guess the cultural influences on my framing style. [edit: the style that i am working with is heavily influenced by the hanoks of Korea]

Overhead view without the floor joists: Each Bay is 12' deep x 50' wide Entire frame is Ash (hand hewn or round)


 

View from main entrance of stable:
Height to top of main beam is 10'
Aisle is 14' from interior post to interior post.
each stall has a 6'x12' grooming bay space beteen interior and exterior posts



 

View of post Top connection:
Dimensions as noted
floor has a 50 lb/sqft dead load


 

Post top view for cantileaver:

In order to save material, I am trying to canileaver the hay loft into the middle of the stall for ease of feeding. Hay will be kept back 3' from the edge of the hay loft.

Current Cantileaver is 6' past the end of the post.


 


Current points of concern for me:
do these timber sizinging make sense. (i used the calc, but the calc doesn't have anything for Ash so... I am kind of winging it.
Can I actually pull off a 6' cantileaver? If so how? I am thinking I may need to add another support block on the ends.
What size and spacing of floor joists would work best (attempting to use round logs if possible)?
Is there a way to do this frame without digging piles beneath the frostline for the new posts (I live in NY)? The exterior frame is a pole barn with posts beneath frostline, and conventional wisdom would say I need to do the same for these posts to avoid differential shifting, but I would love to avoid digging all those post holes if I could.

[Don P]

Hi bknopf, Welcome

That is interesting. Without seeing what it is holding up I don't understand it yet. For one point I'll risk Greene and Greene  .

[Tom King]

You asked for comments.  Personally, I wouldn't want all those posts in the aisleway.

We built our aisleway 15 feet wide, and we're glad we did.  15 feet of open space so I could use standard 16' lumber for ceiling joists.

I know most people have a 12' one, but the extra few feet give plenty of room for stuff on the sides, and still plenty of room to drive through.

[Ljohnsaw]

My wife and I (mostly my wife's ideas) planned our new barn back in 1990.  We had been in a lot of barns with 12' isle ways and that is just too narrow.  You cannot have anything against the walls or a horse turning around will knock it over.  We made it 15'+ without any posts.  I did mount a tie ring on each side, and with long leads, could tie up a horse for grooming or the farrier.  The posts you show are gonna leave a lot of scrape marks on the haunches of your horses as they catch their hips!  We (me) also set in stall mats down the center of the barn (concrete floor).  They were 5' wide and I had 5' on each side sloped concrete to the middle so any washing done inside didn't run into the stalls or tack room.  With the 15' wide isle, there was a set of baskets on the tack room wall holding all the grooming supplies - handy but also out of the way.  The farrier really liked the mats down the center - made it easier on his feet!

[bknopf]

Thanks everyone for the comments. I should do some extra explaining.
The stable portion is actually 50x50.
the stalls are 12x12
the aisle is 14 feet wide (from inside post to inside post)
the secondary posts are actually built in to create individual grooming bays in front of each stall. Each bay is 6' x 12' So, in essence, each stall extends from the outside wall in to the interior most posts and the secondary (interor) posts aren't really "in the aisle-way."

The posts are all going to be round columns, which should help cut down on sharp corners for horses to scrape on as well as cribbing(hopefully)

I do like the idea gently sloping the aisle towards the center...We are not using concrete, and will eventually paver the central aisle as we have cash. as well as the matting. My father-in-law is the farrier and he will quite enjoy having something soft to stand on.

[Ljohnsaw]

On the mats for the center of the isle.  We put in 5' x 6' mats with the top edge flush with the side concrete (concrete also under the mats).  About every 4 or 5 months I would have to pull up the mats and scrape out all the dirt and shavings that worked under the edges and the seams between each mat.  It would get to be a tripping hazard.  If we kept that property longer, I would have used some black caulking and sealed it right to the concrete and between each mat.  Another option would be to buy some old rubber belting from a conveyor so it would be one continuous piece down the center.

[Tom King]

I understand what you're thinking, but I still would not want those posts there.

[Tom King]

Here is the only picture I could find easily of our barn.  It's 75 feet from our house.

We started with a lean-to with 12x12 stalls on the left, in ancient history.

I added the Aisleway, and stalls to the right in 1991.  The stalls on the right are 12x16, and four of them have removable partitions between, to convert them to two 16x24 foaling stalls.

We ran a US Pony Club here for years.  While I was perfectly comfortable with 9 to 12 year old, properly trained and skilled girls jumping Cross Country fences, and Fox Hunting, I would not want them handling horses, or ponies around those posts.

We found the 12x16 stalls are actually easier to keep clean than the 12x12's.  They horses stir up a 12x12, but use one corner in the 12x16's, and this was without exception, even if the same horse ended up spending some time in both stall sizes.

The right angle passageway into the barn, to the left of the near gate in the picture, allows kids to go in and out, without having to open, and leave open a gate.  Most of the well fed guys on these Forums couldn't get through there, but they are too small for even foals to get out, and slim folks, and kids can easily use it.

The Clerestory sides over the aisleway are open.  I think it's  18 feet to the bottom of the ceiling joists over it.  The clerestory openings are three feet tall, with four feet of overhang.  Roof is very light colored metal.  Snow may blow in there, but what little we get of that makes no difference.  Even on 100 degree days, it's very pleasant in there, and we've never had a sick horse.

I would extend your stalls all the way to the aisleway.

[bknopf]

Tom, I am not sure I see the difficulty that you see. 

If my aisle is 14' wide,what hazard do those posts pose that they would not pose if I simply walled in the space between the posts(essentially making my stalls 12x18 )? At that point, I would need to have boarders tack up in the aisle way, clogging the aisle way, which causes its own set of hazards. We had originally thought to close in the space between each adjacent grooming bay, but chose to leave them open so that people would have a good space to quickly escape if their horse got frisky.

I'm not trying to be difficult, I just trying to understand.

[bknopf]

Hi bknopf, Welcome

That is interesting. Without seeing what it is holding up I don't understand it yet. For one point I'll risk Greene and Greene  .

Close...I had to look up Greene and Greene, but he does pull a lot of inspiration from the same hemisphere as I do.

[loghorse]

the walls between each stall so they swing flush with outside wall.then if you have one run skidsteer down through all stalls.easier cleaning.unless you have a fork or shovel that really fits your hands.

[Tom King]

This Forum in these Forums is a great one for timber framing.

For advice about horses, I'd recommend joining the Chronicle of the Horse Forums, and post your question there.  The last time I looked, they had 35,000 members.

Feel free to use my name and comments.  The old timers there will remember me.

[bknopf]

To be honest...I was not particularly interested in discussing the horse related side of things; The conversation just seemed to swing that way. Ill post some more detailed pictures and descriptions for the frame later tonight
to jumpstart discussion there.

[1/24/22 10pm Edit: the original post has been updated with more explicit information about the frame. please see that post for more info and some points of concern on my end.]

[hidn45]

Hello bknopf, & welcome to the FF!

Personally I love a lot of the details of the "Eastern" styles, although I'm not craftsman enough to be able to duplicate many of them.  I'm on the western end of the Twin Tiers region (Erie, PA, area), & have in-laws at the eastern end (Binghamton, NY, area), so we spend lots of time running the Expressway back & forth.  Looking forward to seeing more about your timberframe project & learning more about the Hanok style.