I am seriously considering the purchase of a swing blade type sawmill, and have been researching the various Lucas, Peterson, and Brand X models. I have found a lot of good info in the archives here, but still have a few questions. I will be using the mill both stationary and portable.
I like the overall construction of the Peterson, especially the carriage setup, but it looks more difficult to move around than that of the Lucas, especially for one person. Keep in mind I say "looks"- I have not seen any of these mills in person.
The Lucas appeals to me because I can drive over to Bailey's eastern warehouse in Jackson, TN and pick up the smaller model (6"cut, 13hp) for $5000. I wonder if this unit is underpowered, though.
The Brand X looks great as a stationary unit, and with Petersons export prices going way up, the price tag is good for a 8" mill (the size I would ideally like to have). The drive to Montana is a bit much, though.
I guess these are not really questions, but statements I would like some feedback on, and I thank you in advance for such.
George
Look far into the future and see what you will be doing with the mill. I have been doing almost entirely custom sawing and have customers that like 2x12x20, 10x12x22, 8x8x32, etc. These are the higher paying jobs, because few mill can or will do them. I still do a lot of 1x6x8 or 2x4x8 because these are wanted too and are the bread and butter of my operation, but I sur like the option for some gravy jobs too.
Actually, I'm focusing more on the near future. Dewey Robinson's Sawmill has recently shut down, and that is where I, and others used to get poplar dimension lumber for various building projects, Mostly 2x4-2x6,etc. Also, I want to build a kiln and produce dimension stock for further milling as well as select and figured hardwood and turning stock for local woodworkers/cabinet shops and my own woodworking business. The swing blade will allow me to take the dimensions I need right out of the log and not have to rip/resaw for further processing.
How about a used mill?
http://www.sawmillexchange.com/circular.htm
You may also want to consider a dimension type of mill. Get what will fit your needs now, and move up as markets, budget and time dictate.
You can get the Brand X or the Peterson with out tracks. Have either freighted to you and build your own tracks.
I really do like the idea of building my own track for a Brand X
This would optimise the stationary setup I am envisioning, but might limit portability.
How easy is it to move the carraige assembly of the X or the Peterson from the truck to the log and vice versa in comparison to the Lucas carraige?
It may be that I should focus on a stationary swingblade operation and use the chainsaw mill for logs I can't or would rather not move.
Probably supplying my own power unit would further reduce shipping costs and hassles. And come to think of it, I do happen to have a couple 20' lengths of 3" angle iron. Hmmm.
Thanks,
George
When I talked to Brand X, he said he would sell without the tracks and with the plans for the tracks. Looks like you could decide how big of a log you would saw and have one made to fit a band saw like portable frame and you could have it all. ;)
By accident I got to watch the Brand X in competition against Lucas, Woodmeiser's computerized deisel and two other mills--I don't remember their names, in Idaho City, Idaho last summer. I went to Idaho to watch the Fuel Reductions Trials put on by the USFS, not shop for mills. I used free time between shows to watch the mills. At first I basically dismissed the Brand X because he only had a small engine (16 hp I think) and everyone else had 25 to 50 hp, all the bells and whistles. By afternoon though, the Brand X had my attention and the undivided attention of about everyone else.
In short, the size and quality of the lumber piles was obvious. When the FS and lumber broker brass threw out the culls and barkies and tallied the results, the Brand X beat all of the rest bad, and with no culls. He about doubled them on accuracy and about double on the amount of good lumber he got from the same size log.
I'm told he laser aligns his tracks to within .030 of an inch and I'm thinking he is patent or patent pend. on his track and log dogging systems. You might want to check both of those out before you build a track!
By the way a trip to Montana to get one of his mills might be a good excuse for a vacation and a man might learn quite a little bit by spending a few hours with him. He sure opened some eyes and sent some $30,000 mill manufactures back to their thinking chairs from Idaho City.
jollywoodtic,
Do you have a sawmill?
When I talked to Jay Brand of Brand X Sawmill, he mentioned this contest but didn't tell me he had done so good. He did say that although his mill didn't have as big a motor as others, he felt a bigger one was not needed. Guess he knows what he is talking about.
Since you were at the show, do you think the other sawyers there were experienced and it was strictly difference in the mills ability? I, for one, would like to hear more from you about this compitition.
Oh, I see this was your first post on the Forestry Forum. Welcome!
Welcome Jollywoodtic,
Noted from your profile that you are in Cody, Wyoming - Probably among the top ten places in the country I'd consider moving to. I've looked at real estate on the WWW for the Cody area from time to time. Anything with trees and water is out of sight. Anything remotely affordable is literally out of sight some where in the high desert.
Would you happen to know an old busted up cowboy named Chris Besley? His son had a road house and camp grounds up the road from Cody before you get to the Yellowstone Park.
If you're going to supply your own tracks, 3" angle isn't needed with the Peterson. The track on the peterson is stiffer than the Lucas, and the two pieces on the Winch Production Frame are easier to move alone. The All Terrain Sawmills from Peterson are similar to the Lucas, Lucas was the Australian distributor of Peterson before they started to build their own mills (you figure it out!). The Brand X doesn't have the CE safety certification that Peterson has.
The Peterson WPF won the 2002 shootout in Massachusetts, far and above the competition in the under $10,000 category. This mill made a lot of sense to me, I was going to buy a Lucas. The other things that swung me towards the Peterson was the aluminum and stainless construction (I want this thing to last), and also the ability to cut 16" without turning the carriage.
If the Tennessee location for lucas would work for you, check out the Peterson website, they still have an 8" 24hp hi/lo for sale in Maryland. http://www.petersonsawmills.com
Well, I've decided that the Lucas mill's need to reposition the carriage for double width cuts negates its portability as well as its lower price and proximity. :-/
I emailed Mr Brand of Brand X about shipping a mill minus the tracks, and he has apparently run into a snag in this regard. He says he will make a post here soon explaining the particulars, but in short, he is unable to sell the one without the other. :'(
So, unless I turn up a real good deal on a Peterson next few months, I suppose I may take a lil' road trip this summer. Ya know, I've never been to Montana... ;)
Plan a hunt and pick me up on the way through. ;)
Jeff, if I go hunting in Montana you are welcome to come along, but I will be bringing my big gun, 137cc w/31"bar, and maybe the Magnum (046 that is). If we bag us a big ol' ponderosa, we can butcher it with the Brand X. What say?
Yeah, I know, not much of a vacation ::), but maybe I could stop on the way back and work down some of those big owly logs in your yard. :)
Log huntin in Montana sounds like a cool way to spend a vacation, but them look at what I do here for a hobby. (https://forestryforum.com/smile/wacky.gif)
Jeff B.
It's nice to work at a mill and get paid for doing your hobby. ;)
J Beyer, I resemble that remark. :D
Excuse me but where am I getting paid for doing the forum?
Its all that love and respect we send your way. You DonT want dollars instead, do ya? ;D
Nope, never expect or want a dime ever from a member. ;D
I too have been considering my options when going to buy a mill and have thought a great deal about the portable circular mills. The feature on some of these mills that really gets production up is having two horizontal blades to make 2 2X4's in one pass.
Hi all,
Have been lurking here for some time but couldn't resist
on this one. I live in a very isolated town of less than 2000
people that has 7, yeah thats 7 lucasmills. 4-8" and 3-6"
Iv'e had my model 8 for 5 years now and no complaints.
My mill has the older 20hp briggs and still impresses me.
Iv'e put my mill in my boat and hauled it up to 40 miles
away to mill lumber for people or to mill logs that were to
big to haul off the beach. The independent height ajust-
ment is a asset in my opinion as I can ajust for log taper
or uneven ground. The conditions Iv'e milled in have been
harsh to say the least. We get an average 120" rain a year
and it's 45 degrees and raining as I write this. The lack of
stainless on the lucas hs not affected my mill and I cut alot
of logs that have floated in the ocean and also work in the
salt air every day. I can break my mill down and have it
loaded on the truck in 10 min. Iv'e also done some
modifying that allows me to double cut up to 3" thick
without turning the powerhead. I have owned a woodmizer
and much prefer the lucas for the type of cutting i'm
doing now, mostly sitka spruce and western hemlock.
I also cut wash ups of cedar,doug fir and once a big
mahogany that must have done alot of traveling. The
powerhead is very portable and can pushed or pulled
through soft sand with little effort. Just one man's
opinion. Thanks for all the info Iv'e recieved from this
forum.
Swinger
Hi, Swinger. Glad you decided to step out of the shadows. We can use some input from an experienced swing-blade man. :)
The swing-blades are fast becoming an important part of the portable mill industry. What is the biggest swinger on the market, anyway?
As I was reading your response I was thinking that sure sounds like Alaska.
What part of Alaska are you in, I currently live in Fairbanks but have lived in Anchorage. I also spend some of my summer each year on the Yukon between Tannana and Galena at Kokrine Hills Bible Camp.
It's nice to see others from this part of the world, have you planted a tree on the members map?
Joanthan
carhartted,
Cordova, AK. eastern side of Prince William Sound.
Swinger
DanG, as far as I'm aware the biggist is the Peterson 10" in either "ATS" or "PRODUCTION FRAME" form, unlimited length and a 10"x20" capacity cut with an available 27hp.
WOW! 8) Were getting more and more Alaska guys on hear. Welcome swinger! 8) I'm in Palmer Alaska myself. ;D If I could see a way I could make a liveing there I would be in Valdez or Cordova, DanG nice spot. Keep this up and we can start a race with Texas, we alredi out number North Dakota. 8)
Andy
Swinger, thanks for dropping in to reply.
What sort of modifications did you make to double cut?
Keep in mind I have not seen the Lucas mill other than in pictures. I guess they must be better than Alaskan mills if so many Alaskans are using them. :D
thanks,
George
woodbeard,
I made the saftey guards removeable so that in about
5 minutes I can double cut. The lucas engine sits low
and to one side of the blade. When this engine gives up
I'm going to do some more mods so I can double cut
the full 8" thick. I cut mostly framing lumber and don't
have a big need for wide boards. I do have the slabbing
attatchment for really wide stuff and have cut slabs 58"x
10'x3" thick.
swinger
Hey, I'm a little late checking back in with you guys. No, I don't have a saw mill right now. Several years back I partnered on a little band saw mill but found out it was a headache in dirty logs. I grew up in small ranch country where a neighbor had a Belsaw sawmill powered with a G John Deere tractor. In looking back the lumber wasn't real good but everyone hauled logs to him and was the crew to cut them up.
I now follow the highway and bridge reconstruction game and went to Idaho to check out possibilitys for right of way clearing as it pays better with about half the headaches.
Of the mills at Idaho City, the Woodmeiser and the people from Salt Lake (don't remember the mill name) were professional factory reps touring the country, putting on demos. The Lucas guys said they had owned the Lucas for several years and had sawed a lot of lumber ( a tree service in Boise I think) The Brand X guys said it was their first show so they would see how they stacked up. To my mind it's the mill. Logs in one side, rolled 2-3 feet to the middle and sawed without having to turn the log and lumber out the over side. Nothing got tanged up and no mill parts to walk around. They walked on and off of both sides like a Sunday stroll because it set on the ground and was open on both sides. They said it took about 30 minutes to level it up ready to cut.
Don't know, but I think Brand X's secret is terribly good log dogs and close toleranced in his mill. Again I don't know but I think that is why he can cut more and better lumber with way less HP. If I get into a possition where I can own a mill again it will be a Brand X.
I'm headed to another job so I will get back with you guys when I get a good chance.
Just to add, Petersons use a plate with teeth cut out, they are mounted inside cut out sections of the wooden log skids. This is paramount as you don't want the blade cutting into these log dogs that stick up, considering that recovery is an important factor a slab of about 15-25mm thick should be left after sawing, steel log dogs that stick up beyond the log skid is a risk. Circular blade cutting through solid steel could be a little bit scary.
These plates are not patented and work very well, you can also set up multiple sets in your skids so you can up your production to sawing more than ONE log at a time and still have stable logs while cutting. Petersons use these log dogs every year at the shoot out and produce very good results every time. I would be curious to the patentabillity of such log dogs. Just little twist to the train of thought.
Gentlemen, Jay Brand here from Brand X Sawmills. First, I would like to thank the gentleman from Wyoming, who attended the Idaho City Competition for his input. The USFS invited 5 of the 368 miniture sawmill manufacturers to that shindig. We were the only mill to tear into that crooked, knotty, pitchy, bull pine "junk" that left with a smile. And volume, accuracy and recovery numbers that raised the eyebrows of the pros at the Forest Products Labratory in Madison, Wisconsin. We're still smiling--Thanks.
With regard to a trip (vacation) to Montana, I purposely ask purchasers or their operator to pick up their mills here for several reasons, two of which I will mention here. 1. The orientation, milling and safety school we offer requires about 1/5 the time it takes me to tell you how to mill premium lumber over the telephone and it insures us 100% satisfied customers. 2. With no bragging intended, I can teach you more about this mill and fast, accurate, consistent production with it in a long afternoon, than you will probably learn in many months on your own. As a picture is worth a thousand words, guided "hands on" is most valuable to both of us.
With regard to building your own track system: A while back Haytrader inquired on the subject and I told him I would calculate an exact price for the mill head without track system etc. However, shortly thereafter, I confired with other mill manufacturers and legal council and am strongly advised that I would open myself and company to potentially endless and or fatal warranty issues, dissatisfied customers if my mill didn't perform on their track etc... Therefore, in self protection I have swiftly and posatively moved to patent my guide track log rail and dogging system. It is now patent pending with all of the pertinent proofs set to record. I'm sorry if this causes any inconvenience, but trust you will both understand and have to agree with my position by necessity.
Regards,
Lumberman
Lumberman,
It it good that you are CYA WBH. Have to do it in this day and age of lawsuits. Besides, getting a patent on your dogging system protects your business interests.
JB
Very interesting. Who were the pro's at the Forest Products Laboratory that were out in Montana and had their eyebrows raised? ::)
What kind of material were you sawing? Certain sizes? species? Were they part of some program to harvest only small diameter material with a certain classification that wouldn't normally go to a conventional sawing operation? Any particular types of products that you were trying to saw out of this material?
Sorry for all the questions. Didn't realize I had so many but you tweaked my interest with your experience and the "show" in Montana.
Swinger,
I have been to Valdez several times but never made it to Cordova. How thin can you slice with that swinger? When I was up at Fort Greely I wished I could have milled them logs left every year on the banks of the Tanana River. A swinger would be the way to do that.
Have to go brush the snow off the van so we can go to church.
ARKANSAWYER
Arkansawyer
Iv'e just played around a little with the thin wood
thing and cut some thin enough to see light through
but never measured it. Next time I get a nice clear
log I'll give it a try and measure. Next time you're in
valdez hop on the ferry, it's only a five hour ride and
you're here. Cordova looks alot like valdez but we
Cordovans think it is much more pretty and way more
laid back. We don't have the big budgets from the oil.
Cordova is just being discovered by sportfisherman as
a world class destination. As for the river logs most of
the big rivers here are very silty and it gets into every
little crack and knot. Dulls blades very fast and makes
them nice and shiny like 1000 grit sandpaper would.
swinger
I know about the grit that is why I thought a swinger would have been better since you can sharpen them on the saw most quick. We just wanted to flatten them on 3 sides and stack where they could dry some and make cabins from them. It was just a waste to look at them laying there.
We went out by boat to a large island half way to Cordova and caught large Halibutt. We landed several over 100 lbs. Then on the way in we ran ito a large school of salmon and caught several of them.
Trees were a lot larger in Seward then up at Ft Greely.
ARKANSAWYER
JB- I appriciate your present world true prospective. I'm certian Shakespeare ass correct. "First thing that needs to be done is get rid of all the Lawyers/attorneys" Attorney--root word Latin atorn- means: "to turn around" You've got it figured--thanks for the support.
Beenthere: The pros from Madison Wis. consisted of three dpartments (I understand) from Forest Products Labratory, USFS which incompassed raw material production, kiln drying and final recovery (net marketable product) departments. Bare in mind that the USFS nor other government employees can make "recommendations" (play favorites), the legal limit to their reports are the documented facts. I think you can still find the report from the Fuel Reduction Trials at www.theyankeegroup.com.
The man behind the lumber recovery end of the trials was a maverick "intellegent" local forester Leonard Roeber, who set out to show that a viable, marketable lumber product could be realized from the otherwise "tree mulching" that was under research/experiment in reproductive stands or plantations of Ponderosa Pine--Bull Pine and other specie in Idaho and elsewhere. The purpose for the mulching was to thin the timber and reduce forest fire hazard. However, the tree mulching produced 30 to 50 tones per acre of residue that produced "flash fuel", a worse fire hazard than before. AND the extreme cost of machine mulching needed a value/cash exchange to fund the BS--excuse me!--mulching.
The mill demo/test numbers set by our Brand X mill proved to the USFS and private forest plot owners that regen. thinning and harvest is profitable in the first and subsequent stages.
Happy Day--we don't have to burn it all and run the spotted owl ot of ah ome one day too! As we milled from approx. 4" dia. "posts" to 30" x 4" long butt "cobbs" it is evident whose mill will do it all --accurately and quickly.
The first man in Madison to contact is John "Rusty" Dramm at jdramm@fs.fed.us. He will no doubt offer you a conservative "opinion" and direct you to the other appropriate departsments, info or personel if you want more info on the Fuel Reduction Trials. In Idaho City contact lroeber@fs.fed.us.
P.S. We are from Montana, the contest was in Idaho City, Idaho. Just north of Boise. Don't worry about the number of questions. I've heard the only stupid question is the one that wasn't asked.
Jay