Greetings all...
My name is Lee. I joined the forum in March 2010 just after purchasing a 'project' mill. Originally, I bought the mill as a project for my Dad and I. He's a retired diesel mechanic and loves keeping his hands greasy. He also loves anything wood so a sawmill was the perfect remedy to occupy his (and my) idle time. Shortly after making the original purchase, I realized just how deep the rabbit hole goes. None the less, I obtained and read every single resource I could find on the subject. :P
After many months of reading and watching and asking... I'm finally ready to set things in motion. With everyone's permission, I'd like to create this... an ongoing journal of my journey. I've taken hundreds of pictures so far and plan on taking many more. Again, with permission, I'd like to post them here.
I'll start with this:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC01436%7E0.JPG)
This is the original engine and mill that I bought. The mill track is in the back ground. As rough as the engine looks, the track and husk were much, much rougher. This is where it started. Stay tuned for where it ends!
By the way, that's my Dad wearing his favorite plaid shirt.
-lee
Lee,nice to have you and dad here.Setting up an old circular mill is a daunting task,especially if you just have a pile of parts.Anything you want to ask here, have at it,theirs many years of experiance at your finger tips.That 6-71 will have no trouble with the saw,but I'd DanG sure build a doghouse around it.Prehaps your pictures and story will inspire some of the many here with mills in a pile. Frank C.
Thanks Frank,
I did start with a pile of parts. Then I obtained many more parts. Finally, I think I have enough to set up a complete mill. As you said, I hope my story will inspire many others to complete their projects. This task has been daunting to say the least however it has been VERY rewarding.
-lee
Shortly after getting the mill home we started working on the engine. It didn't take long to discover that this wasn't going to be a plug and play operation. We found this:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC01519.JPG)
Then we found this:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC01521.JPG)
And so, a complete rebuild began...
-lee
This will be quite the thread. How many HP is that motor? Good luck with your project. You are a good son.
Lee,your right that old Detroit needs a complete overhaul, that corrosion in the exhaust port often means cracked head.Myself if I was doing it I'd look for anouther 6-71 thats running,you have all the hard to find stuff,the clutch assy,and variable speed governor.Ask at your local fire barn who in your area refurbushes fire trucks,they are always repowering trucks to modern emission standards and 6-71's were popular in the fire service.Many times you can get a runner for little more than scrap value. Frank C.
Lee,
Love this thread. Looking forward to seeing the mill come together.
Tripp
Hi Lee. I'm enjoying your thread already. Please keep it going. Ongoing stories like this are inspiring, educational and entertaining, just to name a few adjectives.
Have you been following lyle's build? It'll be interesting to see how yours evolves/evolved in comparison.
Looking forward to reading and seeing more! 8)
Welcome to the Forum, Lee. I will be watching closely to keep up with your progress. I find myself in a very similar position with my old Frick 00 and it's International UD-14 power unit. My Dad worked a sawmill as a boy, so he was not interested in playing with my mill. My sons won't play with anything that is not connected to the internet, so I am alone on the sawmill project. I caught the bug years ago when I went to the local sawyer to buy some pine lumber. He said he did not have any sawed, but he would saw for me if I would help. I ended up helping him saw, and sawing for him, until he passed away. Let us know where you are located in Carolina. You may have help lurking in the area. Just my observation, but you will find that once you get the mill adjusted and sawing to your satisfaction, sawmilling becomes a material handling problem to be solved. Good Luck, we are watching! Regards, Clark :)
Thanks for the comments and interest guys! I've bored all my co workers to death about this adventure. It would seem that I've found a captive audience now.
Here's a pic of my Dad, the -71 Detroit guru ripping into a well worn 6. I wish you all could have been here to see how happy he was to turn wrenches on a chunk of great American iron, once again!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/Dad%7E0.jpg)
Sorry about the poor quality of these pics. I snapped them with my iPhone.
Here's the block, mostly disassembled, sitting on the new frame that I built.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/engine1.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/engine2.jpg)
Finally, after a thorough cleaning and line bore we have this.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/engine3.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/engine4.jpg)
Quite a difference huh? As good as things are looking, this is where I made a BIG decision and changed directions. Shortly after getting the block back from the machine shop, I discovered that the head, cam and crank were all worn or damaged beyond repair. At this point, rebuilding this engine was going to cost way more than it was worth. After consulting with my Dad and other experts on the subject, we decided to begin a search for an engine that would be more cost effective. My Dad's idea was to simply find an engine that was running, with few or preferably NO problems.
With that, the search began...
-lee
While the search for an engine was underway, a friend of mine came over with his loader to take care of some necessary grading. My plan from the beginning was to pour a concrete pad to set the mill on. He started by pushing an old brush pile out of the way.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC01552.JPG)
It's starting to look a little better now.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC01563.JPG)
After the brush was cleared out, he started setting up a pad. The topsoil here doesn't exactly lend itself as a good base for concrete so he cut it out and filled with better material.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC01571.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC01576.JPG)
I hope you guys are enjoying so far. Stay tuned!
-lee
Welcome to the forum , I'm newer than you just joining this year . I have a friend with a 6-71 in his mill , he solved the noise problem using a barrel buried running the pipe up after it goes into the barrel with baffles . his is really quiet . I put my mill into service last year and have had a great time with it , it's a hobby mill . I put a screw in for dust removal , I'll post some pictures later of that , and use a winch to turn my logs . you may have guessed it I'm no spring chicken . It's an old mill made in 1935 with a minn moline power unit . I'll be much interested in your trip building your mill so keep the pics coming .
Looks like you're making good progress. I know how you feel.
We're in year 6 of our Circle Mill project. I only have a couple weeks per year to work on it and had to skip last year to work on something more urgent.
Good luck with your project. It'll be worth it. :)
Lee,sorry to hear about your engine,sometimes it just doesn't make sence moneywise to bring one back.Ask dad if he's ever heard of a 1-71 detroit they exist but are rare,two's three's and on up are common but ones not so.Older cat diesels are good power but probibly the best is a murphy diesel if you can find one.Clutches are expensive, best to find an engine with one and a variable speed gov.,most highway engines have just a limiting speed gov.Old shovels and cranes have the perfect package on a skid mount.Good luck. Frank C.
You're not boring me one little bit!!! If I was digging like that I would have one BIG pile of rocks and one small pile of dirt.
Frank,
The original engine has HV7 injectors which would make around 120 hp at 1600 rpm. I planned on up grading those to N55's or so to make around 180 hp. After further research (and consultation with the Dad) we decided to set the engine up for 1400 rpm. These two strokes really don't like idling so I knew 1200 was about the lower limit. It's amazing how much reduction in noise there is in just 200 rpm. Though I'm no diesel mechanic, I've worked along side my Dad for over 30 years. Everything from 16v's to the incredibly rare 1-71 that you asked about. (On that subject, I built a bracket for a pair of 1's which were primary and secondary bilge pumps on an old shrimp boat. Dad overhauled both engines. I really should have shot a video of those things running. Sweet music!) Anyway, at this point in the build I thought everything was set. Man was I ever wrong...
ps - It's pretty exciting on my end to finally be able to talk to people whom are actually interested in the topic! Thanks guys.
-lee
Gday
Great story and keep us posted and I know how you feel about having a place to talk about your mill addiction as I felt the same way when I joined Mate ;) ;D 8)
I am tidying up an old portable 40s model Jackson Lumber Harvester Manual and Edger Mill#132 atm I feel your pain on the motor also as I have a 453 and as We took the side covers and Lanny my diesel mechanic said not good as we could push our fingers through the liner we did have high hopes when we looked at the head and blower but that sunk the plan of just throwing a kit in it do have a good rad, clutch and other parts so I will be going to look at a good running 453 tomorrow most likely and found a 253 for the edger localy I will most likely have the mll ready to saw again for the first time in 20 years within the next two weeks then get onto the edger ;)
The fella also has a 671 there but LA might be to far ???
Regards Chris
I have a couple of 6vs I could part with one of them if you would be interested.
how many hp does a 1-71 pump out?
have you guys ever worked on or even seen an aluminum block Detroit?
Don,
Thanks for the offer on the 6V. I really want to stick to an inline configuration. I'll have to talk to my Dad on the hp of a 1. I would guess 25 or so. They are neat little things. I have only read about the aluminum block Detroits. I've never seen one in person. I suppose it was for weight savings? Maybe saltwater corrosion resistance? ???
-lee
I suppose at this point in my build I got side tracked. My day job became very busy for a couple of months so I wasn't able to devote as much time as I would have liked to the mill. Once things at the office cooled down, I found myself back at it. I considered purchasing a portable bandmill for a while and even narrowed that search to a Timberking 2000. My Dad was never too excited about going down this road. He's more of a 'finish what you've got' kind of guy. So, back to the Frick we go!
To bring everyone up to speed... At this point I have a Frick 0 with 51' of track, husk, carriage. All steel and all needing major repairs. I also have a 6-71 Detroit Diesel which will cost more to rebuild that it's worth. Essentially I have a pile of parts. After a long talk with my Dad we decided to finally get serious and make this thing happen.
A good friend of my Dad's decided to retire and sell his mill after almost 50 years of sawing. He had a Frick 0, all steel in nice shape. Originally it was driven by a 4-71, which he sold to someone else. I was able to pick up the mill for MUCH less than it would have cost to rebuild what I had.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC01622.JPG)
My Dad inspecting as usual.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC01601.JPG)
The mill came with a Miner edger and International gas power unit. All in all, not a bad deal. Here's the edger:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02600.JPG)
I going to mount the edger on a steel channel frame at some point.
-lee
Thats the usual senario you buy an old mill that needs alot of work,then you find anouther in better shape and buy that.For a wile I had enough parts to make three or four mills.You can cut your sawyer teeth with the gas engine but it will eat you out of house and home with fuel.Have faith the right diesel will come along.Frank C.
Frank,
The International power unit is for the edger. Its a U4, the same engine found in Farmall H tractors. This one's just stationary with a pto clutch. I think it's around 25 hp or so. It ran the edger before so I don't think I'll have any problems. Well, other than the cracked exhaust manifold. I think I have that solved as I've ordered a new one.
Here's a picture of the International:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02039.JPG)
And a few more of the mill:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC01981.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC01993.JPG)
The 4-71 in the background was sold to another guy. Bummer. It is a newer engine, 4 valve with a single screw rack. Oh well, the search continues...
-lee
Great story. Keep it coming.
What a story it is gentlemen. I've been through one running engine that didn't work out in the end. (that thing was a beast!) Then there is the engine in the pics that didn't work out. I scored a complete 6-71 with a pto that was taken from a crane (I think). It broke a rod and damaged the crank and block however there are PLENTY of good parts left. Did I mention the sawmill graveyard that my shop has become? I picked up a 10C27 sheave and 5 sets of arbor bearings along the way somewhere. A guy gave me two blades that were, "In real good shape." Well, at least they'll make nice wall ornaments in the shed. I managed to pick up an old belt lacing press. I need to put up some pictures, maybe someone can tell me more about it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining in the least. My Dad and I have spent many hours together tinkering with all this stuff and talking about how it's all going to look once things are up and running. We've made some real progress and suffered some set backs along the way. Either way, any time I get to spend with him is time well spent.
I kind of lost sight of the goal for a while. Things are back on track now.
-lee
Quote from: SPD748 on May 13, 2012, 11:43:36 AM
Did I mention the sawmill graveyard that my shop has become?
Now that's something that we all have in common :D If we all scrapped out our boneyards, we could all meet in a tropical place and sip a Mi Tie together. But what fun would that be!!
Thanks for the story. Many of us can totally relate!!!
p.s. good on you for fighting off that itch to buy a band mill 8) ;D
Quote from: dblair on May 10, 2012, 10:23:17 PM
he solved the noise problem using a barrel buried running the pipe up after it goes into the barrel with baffles .
dblair, I'm still running a 6-71 in a crusher and would love to see some pictures or drawings of this setup!! I'm all for quieting it down a bit!!
SPD748, I'm loving this story! One good source for 671's is the marine world...there were alot of them in boats and they're being upgraded quite alot lately...the 6-71's seem to be pretty inexpensive and readily available. Keep up the great job and thanks for sharing!!
John
Quote from: Dave_ on May 13, 2012, 12:03:08 PM
Quote from: SPD748 on May 13, 2012, 11:43:36 AM
Did I mention the sawmill graveyard that my shop has become?
Now that's something that we all have in common :D If we all scrapped out our boneyards, we could all meet in a tropical place and sip a Mi Tie together. But what fun would that be!!
Thanks for the story. Many of us can totally relate!!!
p.s. good on you for fighting off that itch to buy a band mill 8) ;D
I'm sure it wouldn't take long before you were wondering how Palm trees saw out! ;D
John,
It's my understanding that the blower on these engines is a source of some of the noise. "Intake" noise is what i'm told. The marine engines came with an intake silencer however, looking at a picture of one I don't see how an air filter/cleaner could be fitted. If the noise is coming through the air filter/cleaner, would it be possible to run a long intake pipe up away from the engine with an air filter/cleaner at the end? I don't know. I have a length of 5" .083 tube in the shop. If I ever find an engine, I'll try this idea out and see. On that subject, I've been scouring the marine market. So far, the engines that I've come up with have many questions that come along with them. I'm holding out for a runner.
Dave,
That itch you spoke of... it was powerful. I took a trip down to Cooks Saw in AL. I found a very nice product there and great people. The only problem I had with their saw was all the electric over hydraulic controls. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with that type of control. I simply prefer the 'feel' of direct hydraulic controls. Of all the mills I visited or demo'd, the Cooks seemed to be built heaviest. I really liked their log turner. That thing is massive! If Cooks offered an AC-36 with direct hydraulic controls, I'd add one to the stable no questions asked.
I called TimberKing who forwarded me to a local owner. I visited his mill. He was kind enough to allow me to saw up a log. It seemed well built and user friendly. Though I didn't think it was build as heavy as the Cooks, I really preferred the control system. I still plan on adding one to my lineup however I want to complete the Frick first.
-lee
looks good so far where are you in nc i have the same mill with a 3-71 gm if you need any info pm me i'll try to help
i also have a good source for gm parts near marion,nc
I run my three blade edger with an H and a flat belt. Works good but three blades cutting 2" hardwood is too much ;) ;D :) Talladega Machine usually has several 6-71s listed. Your second mill looks really nice 8) 8) 8)
if i had a place big enough id love to get a circle mill with a 671 or similar.
I started rebuilding my PTO yesterday. Man this thing was nasty. Anyway, I pulled the clutch assembly off the main shaft. My puller wasn't big enough so I made a bridge from 1 1/2" square steel:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02737.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02740.JPG)
I piggy-backed my little puller onto the bridge. The two 3/4" bolts screwed into the holes on the clutch face. A few turns of the fine thread screw and bam... clutch popped right off.
Here's a view of he PTO housing minus the clutch:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02721.JPG)
And the clutch its self:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02722.JPG)
I took the PTO to a local shop with a 100 ton press to remove the old pillow block bearing and sheave. They called late yesterday afternoon and said its ready. I'm heading over there in a few minutes to pick it up. Hopefully the tapered roller bearings are good. Wish me luck guys!
-lee
Oh, here is the belt lace press that I mentioned earlier. I can't find any tags or markings on it. Does anyone know who made it and when?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02728.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02730.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02733.JPG)
-lee
the lace press is used for alligator lacing it's a crimpstyle lacing which is ok but I personally would opt for the rivet style as the alligator tends to tear out esp on a belt with more than min tension
Awesome post with picture's. Pretty cool to watch as you move along. Keep em coming.
Lee,its probibly a "Clipper" lacer,I have one thats ment to be used in a large vice its not as wide as yours.You can still find the long cards of laceing clips at industrial/mill supply houses or almost any old engine show.Large diesel farm tractors make good mill power especially if you can find one with poor tires or a transmission problem, that can be had reasonable.Frank C
Great story with pictures! When we moved to Michigans's UP our neighbor had and old DD 6-71 from a saw mill in his back yard. I put it on Craigs List for him where is sat for over six months. He sold it for $350. Check out my gallery picture of the engine. Good luck with your mill.
Thanks for the info on the lace press guys! I picked it up for $20 at a tractor show. I think I made out pretty good, even if I never use it.
-lee
I picked up the PTO from the shop earlier. There is good news and bad news. (as with most things on this journey) The shop was able to separate the PTO parts. Their 100 ton press made quick work of the 'frozen' bearing and sheave. The bad news? Both tapered roller bearings will have to be replaced. A call to my local NAPA determined the bearings and races will cost $235. Oh well, such is life. A dollar here, a dollar there... $235 dollars now! My NAPA guy says they will be here in two days. Until then, here are some pictures of the PTO after a bath in kerosene.
The 3" main shaft:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02745.JPG)
The bell housing:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02747.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02750.JPG)
I'm going to chuck the main shaft in the lathe and clean all the paint and rust off. The pilot was worn by a seized bearing so I have to weld it up and turn it down to size. After repairing the pilot, I'm going to machine a 'wedge' to separate the roller bearings as they are pressed against a collar. Then it's press the new bearings on and assemble the PTO. As always, updates and pics to come...
-lee
SPD748
Might try https://ec.kamandirect.com/us/content/products/bearings/default.asp to get a price on those bearing's. last time I priced NAPA against kaman they where way cheaper.
Quote from: SPD748 on May 13, 2012, 05:25:13 PM
John,
It's my understanding that the blower on these engines is a source of some of the noise. "Intake" noise is what i'm told. The marine engines came with an intake silencer however, looking at a picture of one I don't see how an air filter/cleaner could be fitted. If the noise is coming through the air filter/cleaner, would it be possible to run a long intake pipe up away from the engine with an air filter/cleaner at the end? I don't know. I have a length of 5" .083 tube in the shop. If I ever find an engine, I'll try this idea out and see. -lee
Lee,
My intake is about 16' in the air, then runs through 2 big oil bath air cleaners (about 16" in diameter) in "series". The exhaust is routed to about the same "altitude" then turns horizontal through an elbow (pointed away from the one neighbor that always complains about noise...eventhough he lives on the edge of the hiway).
The engine is noisey enough that you can hear the "drone" of it above the racket of the rock crusher and screen. I have finally gotten the plant down in the pit, about 10' below the level of the berms around it...all for noise abatement. That's why I'd love to find out more about the muffler system mentioned above. The noise isn't really a problem for me, but I do like to try to keep the neighbors happy if at all possible!
One thing about a 6-71...they just RUN!! Basically a zero problem engine for sure, if you can stand the noise....and they're really not too hard on fuel.
John
interesting thread for what its worth I just saw that TRI-STATE AUCTION will be selling a nice 671 might want to check it out
from the looks of your lacer it takes no. 2 and 3 clipper lacing . I have used ones like that many times in the years past . they make a good lace job. Grainger has the lacing you need .
Sorry for the delayed update guys. It's been a busy day here. Today, I machined a few parts for the mill. The first was a riser to mount under the PTO outboard bearing.
First, I cut a block of steel in the saw:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02755.JPG)
Then I squared it up on the bridgeport:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02762.JPG)
Finally I added a few holes:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02774.JPG)
Next I made a cross member for the engine frame. I had to bore the holes to accept the DOM tubing:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02777.JPG)
Then I cut the DOM to length:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02768.JPG)
Finally, I welded the DOM into the crossmember:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02779.JPG)
Stay tuned guys. Hopefully these pics will make sense when I start putting things together. More on that later!
-lee
You sure do have some nice toys tools to play work with.
Herb
Yah that, and you do very nice work!!
John
Very interesting , looks to me you have a great plan and it's coming togather.
Thanks guys! I spent my early adult life chasing a tool makers certificate. After finally obtaining it, the manufacturing jobs in my area all moved to mexico. That shiny-new certificate became worth less than the value of the paper it's printed on. I can't complain though. I picked up a skill that no one can take away, not even NAFTA!
I'm working on the PTO main shaft today. I'll post some pictures later this evening.
-lee
Great progress. Keep it coming.
Good evening all,
I didn't get quite as much accomplished as I would have liked. I did manage to get a little done. The pilot bearing in the original engine locked up at some point. This caused the snout on the PTO shaft to wear. You can see this wear in this photo:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02810.JPG)
Here's a shot of the front half of the shaft:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02806.JPG)
Those tapered roller bearings will be cut off tomorrow. I'll weld up the worn section of the shaft and turn it back to size on the lathe. I'll also finish cleaning the shaft while its on the lathe. Hopefully I'll be able to get that finished tomorrow. Until then...
-lee
Wow nice job so far
The story is inspiring, to say the least :)
Hello all,
I hope everyone had a good weekend. Today was a good day here. I got a little more accomplished that I had hoped. I removed the roller bearings from the PTO shaft and welded the damaged section. Here are some pictures.
I cut the cages and rollers off:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02823.JPG)
I added a little heat (and a drift punch):
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02826.JPG)
And BAM! They're off!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02827.JPG)
I finished the day by welding up the damaged section of the PTO shaft:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02830.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02832.JPG)
I know, its ugly now. I'll clean things up on the lathe. Wish me luck!
-lee
SCORE!!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02674.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02668.JPG)
Finally. 6-71, 4 valve, N65's, single screw rack. Starts easy without a puff of smoke. Gentlemen, we have a winner! I can't wait to get this beast off that skid and onto my frame in the shop. Pictures to follow.
-lee
Looks nice! Complete with the factory twin air cleaners and hydraulic governor! Way to go!
John
What do you guys think about the oil bath air cleaners? I've never been a fan. I have a single intake blower housing and Donaldson air cleaner that I could mount. These oil bath cleaners seem like they allow a lot of dirt/dust into the engine. My Dad hates them however he worked on trucks which operated in very dusty conditions. Compared to that, this engine will be operating in a relativity controlled environment. Thoughts?
-lee
Quote from: SPD748 on May 23, 2012, 12:48:52 PM
What do you guys think about the oil bath air cleaners? I've never been a fan. I have a single intake blower housing and Donaldson air cleaner that I could mount. These oil bath cleaners seem like they allow a lot of dirt/dust into the engine. My Dad hates them however he worked on trucks which operated in very dusty conditions. Compared to that, this engine will be operating in a relativity controlled environment. Thoughts?
-lee
Lee,
I'm no engine expert, desiel or otherwise, but one thing I learned in my career in the Navy:
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!Keep up the good work. I'm having fun following your journey.
Herb
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
This I can understand.
-lee
Lee - I'm really enjoying following your progress; it makes for very interesting reading. I can't offer any helpful advice but I wish you only solid welds, sharp teeth and may your nuts never get rusty! :D
Quote from: The Canuck on May 23, 2012, 01:40:52 PM
Lee - I'm really enjoying following your progress; it makes for very interesting reading. I can't offer any helpful advice but I wish you only solid welds, sharp teeth and may your nuts never get rusty! :D
Thanks my friend!
-lee
Quote from: The Canuck on May 23, 2012, 01:40:52 PM
Lee - I'm really enjoying following your progress; it makes for very interesting reading. I can't offer any helpful advice but I wish you only solid welds, sharp teeth and may your nuts never get rusty! :D
That right there is the best quote I have read in a long time...
Can I use that in my signature...
Great thread, and best wishes for progress :)
I finished the brackets which will hold the engine in place, keeping the belt tight. I'm using tractor top links as the adjustment bar. There will be two, one at each end of the engine frame. I'll use a pair of 20 ton bottle jacks to push the frame, tightening the belt then adjust the top links to hold it in place.
This end will be anchored to the concrete:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02837.JPG)
This end will be welded to the engine frame:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02839.JPG)
Here's the overall view:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02841.JPG)
I'm heading back to the shop this afternoon to mount the engine on the frame and turn the PTO shaft. Hopefully, I can avoid dropping either on my foot. (don't ask).
-lee
Lee, I run a pair of BIG oil baths on the crusher... the air line downstream from them is always spotless. From that, I always figured they work just fine. I also run a "spinner" pre-filter cleaner on the end of the intake. I wouldn't think you'd have any problems with that dual setup..the flow should be more than adequate to give any dust time to fling out of the airstream. It really wouldn't take that much to put a "sock" of foam around the inlet one each of them for a little added protection if you wanted to. (although I think I'd just leave well enough alone too)
John
Quote from: morgoon on May 23, 2012, 02:06:26 PM
Quote from: The Canuck on May 23, 2012, 01:40:52 PM
Lee - I'm really enjoying following your progress; it makes for very interesting reading. I can't offer any helpful advice but I wish you only solid welds, sharp teeth and may your nuts never get rusty! :D
That right there is the best quote I have read in a long time...
Can I use that in my signature...
Be my guest! ;D
Success my friends! I transferred the engine from the original skid to it's new home without injury. I also fab'd a post to mount the fuel filters to since my rear engine mounting brackets won't allow the original rear sheet metal to fit. I turned the PTO shaft pilot to size and made a few "push" plates.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02843.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02864.JPG)
This is the rear engine mount. I'll weld in in place once everything is assembled and aligned.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02861.JPG)
The front engine mount posts:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02852.JPG)
The PTO pilot:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02857.JPG)
Finally, I welded a couple of plates to bolt on the concrete for the bottle jacks to push against while tigntening the belt. I got in too much of a hurry so the weld is a little shaky. No worries, it'll hold for what it does.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02859.JPG)
-lee
Moving along good Lee,those old oil bath air cleaners will be fine especially if theirs some sort of partition between the saw and engine.Consider a little sawdust "solid fuel booster"If you are going to use multiple "V" belts to drive the arbor,a belt adjuster works well.Take a piece of pipe attach a bearing to one end to fit on the arbor shaft the outher end agenst the PTO housing with adjustment in the middle.It will remove alot of belt strain especially on the arbor,and aid your top link adjusters. Frank C.
Thanks Frank. I plan on using a banded 'C' belt, 5 grooves wide. I'll put a 5 groove sheave on the PTO. The arbor has 6 grooves. I'm saving one for a sawdust blower later. Originally the mill ran with 4 individual 'C' belts. I'm told the banded belts run cooler and longer. We'll see.
-lee
I got a little finished around the mill site yesterday. My concrete guy is finally lined up so I went ahead with the forms. The pad will be 70 feet long by 20 feet wide with a notch at one end where the log deck will be installed. I changed my mind on the layout of the pad so the grading from before wasn't quite level on the edges. I had to add some rock screens to level up. I'm REALLY hoping this layout works as it will be kind of permanent. :D I back filled the outside of the forms hoping to keep the screens from washing should it rain before the pad is poured.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/Mill_Site_1.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/Mill_Site_2.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/Mill_Site_3.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/Mill_Site_4.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/Mill_Site_5.JPG)
-lee
Lee,
That is going to be a very nice pad. How do you plan to anchor your Frick to the concrete are you going to set some threaded rod in the concrete?
Charlie,
The track frame and husk will have steel legs with 'foot' plates attached. Each plate will have a .710 hole. After the mill is set out on the pad, I'll drill through these holes into the concrete and use 5/8" anchors to hold everything down. I thought about the threaded rod angle however I didn't think that I'd be able to align that many anchors prior to setting out the frame.
-lee
Lee,
That does sound like a better way to do it.
Fantastic. Looking good Lee. I am really enjoying your trip. Want be long now.
Don't know much about Detroits. Will any thing off the other be spare parts for this one? That one looks real nice. Will defiantly have to have a sound wall between you though. I have heard some of them really scream. Chuck
Chuck,
You are so very correct sir. These 2 stroke DD's talk with an outside voice only! Oh what a sweet song they sing. I have actually accumulated a total of three 6-71's over that past two years. That's not counting the miscellaneous parts I've picked up here and there. I've sold parts off of the cores to help pay for the lot. At the advise of my Dad, I've kept a nice inventory of spare parts for the future. It's getting harder and harder to find good spare parts.
As for the noise... I've been around these engines all my life. That being said, I've never had to work beside one for hours on end. I've heard from many an experienced sawyer that a wall is as required as a steady supply of logs when operating a mill that's DD powered. I foresee some type of enclosure in the mill's future. :)
-lee
SPD748 your and your father are Inspirational.
What an undertaking! I love to see old equipment restored back to it's former glory, especially to such a high standard. As an engineer myself I can really appreciate your craftsmanship, Nice welding and attention to detail.
I have reciently brought an old mill myself and hope that I can bring it up to as high a standard. (just got to make it turn a dollar first)
I will be following with a keen eye.
Nick
If your at sea the drone of a Detroit in the bilge is very reassuring.Ever watch RR maint crews all their equip have Detroits, right on the governor,they must have to wear ear plugs and muffs. Frank C.
Good afternoon guys...
Today I'm working on sorting out the mill's hydraulic system. I'm going to fabricate a mount for a hydraulic pump and weld the mount to the engine frame. I just ordered the pump, sheave and QD bushing. I'll have to wait for those items to arrive before continuing with the design process. I plan on adding a powered offbearing conveyor and chain type log turner as well as a hydraulic log deck some time in the future. I have most of the components for these however I'm going to consentrate on the base mill setup before moving on to adding the hydraulic features. One thing that will have to be installed now is the pump mount as it will be welded to the engine frame prior to powercoat. I'm trying to think ahead to avoid having to grind/cut/modify anything on the engine frame itself. I'll post pictures as soon as possible.
-lee
Lee,if you haven't gone too far yet you can couple a hydraulic pump directly to the DD and eliminate alot of alignment and drive issues.Mayby even an air compressor. Frank C.
Frank,
I looked for a hydraulic pump that would couple to the engine without success. I've already ordered a pump with the required 10gpm output. Actually, I ordered a pump with a capacity much greater than required so I can slow the pump down with the correct sheave. Hopefully the pump will last longer operating at a lower rpm. I'll drive the pump with a pair of A belts directly from the crankshaft. The system pressure will be set at 1000psi so there won't be any great strain on the pump or it's drive.
-lee
Lee
Without knowing any details this comment may be a waste of time, But...
There will be a minimum RPM for your pump, if it doesn't turn fast enough there will not be enough "leak" to lubricate the bearings.
Nick
Quote from: Nick Walkley on June 02, 2012, 03:41:08 AM
Lee
Without knowing any details this comment may be a waste of time, But...
There will be a minimum RPM for your pump, if it doesn't turn fast enough there will not be enough "leak" to lubricate the bearings.
Nick
Nick,
I had a concern about this very thing so I consulted with a friend who designs, among other things, hydraulic systems. He indicated, as you have mentioned, that hydraulic pumps have a minimum as well as a maximum rpm. His opinion is that systems designed around gear type pumps should be operated at approximately 50% of the pumps maximum rpm. The pump I chose is a Prince SP25 which has a maximum rpm of 3000. That being said, I ordered an A27 model which has a displacement of 1.66 in^3 and a flow of 10.27 gpm @ 1500 rpm. The hydraulic additions to my mill will each require 10 gpm or less and none will be operated simultaneously.
-lee
The past few days have been a little slow around the mill. UPS was kind enough to deliver the tapered roller bearings and races for the PTO shaft yesterday. I'm still waiting on the hydraulic pump. I ordered the PTO sheave, bushing and outboard bearing. Those should arrive sometime next week. The concrete pad will be poured next Wednesday or Thursday :). My plan for today is to finish leveling and lay plastic sheeting inside the forms.
-lee
Good Monday morning guys.
After reading xlogger's post about his county's zoning making efforts to shut him down, I spent all of yesterday calling everyone I know to see if my property's zoning would allow a sawmill to be setup and operated. I didn't get an answer however I did learn that one of my day job supervisor's wife works at the county zoning office. (a couple of notes on this: this supervisor and I really get along and... he's been after me to hurry up and start milling because he is in need of some lumber!) I'll be in the zoning office around noon today. Wish me luck!
I tried to stay busy around the mill site in an effort to keep the worry away. I finished leveling up the rock screens inside the concrete forms and added 6 mil plastic sheeting.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02877.JPG)
If all goes well, the concrete will be poured on Wednesday.
I also got the bearings installed on the PTO shaft and assembled the housing and shaft dry. I mounted the PTO on the engine and made the outboard bearing support. The outboard bearing and sheave should be here this week. Once they come in, I'll finish up the engine frame and weld the motor mounts in place. As always, pictures to follow. For now, it's off to county zoning.
-lee
Success!!
County zoning says I can setup and run the mill for personal use as is without permits. If at some point it becomes an official business, I can get a $60 permit and operate as a 'home based business.' Man was I ever worried. So far so good. Now if the rain will hold off long enough to get that concrete poured.
-lee
SPD748, congratulations. Glad it's gone well for you. Ya know, it may not be a bad idea to go ahead and spend the $60 now so if things change in zoning or such, you will be grandfathered in.
I'm enjoying your journey as are others. Thanks for sharing with us.
So, I got a bit of a surprise this morning when my concrete guy calls at 7:30 and says, "Hey, I'm on my way out." Apparently I was thinking he was coming tomorrow and he was thinking he was coming today. I say, "Great, meet you down there." With that, the pour begins.
I got a little rain last night. No problems... the concrete pushed the water out of the forms as we went along.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02881.JPG)
Finally! The first truck arrives.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02882.JPG)
I ordered that new 'green' concrete. I'm told it's better for the environment.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02886.JPG)
That's the concrete guru, Mr. Wilson on the left. A very professional and skilled gentleman.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02890.JPG)
Moving right along.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02915.JPG)
That's a wrap, so to speak. 22 yards of 4000 psi waiting to be finished.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02922.JPG)
We're on lunch break at the moment. Mr. Wilson says he'll start finishing in about an hour. I'll post pictures of the work when we're finished this evening. I keep saying 'we' however he's doing all the work while I kind of stand around. :D
-lee
As promised, pictures of the finished product.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02929.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02934.JPG)
I went with a light brooming to add some texture to the surface. Tomorrow we'll cut in some joints and remove the forms. What do you guys think so far?
-lee
Looks good to me, only thing I see wrong was only 2 guys pouring 22 yards of concrete :D. Glad to see you went green though ;). I helped my old boss pour 55 yards one morning, there were only two of us there also :-\, took a week or two to get my back feeling right again.
Looks good. I like using the machine trowel. Easy to put on a real good finish, and easy on the knees.
However, I don't broom or let the concrete guys do any brooming. Too hard to sweep clean. And I don't find walking on it any more slippery than the broomed. To me, brooming just eliminates the finishers having to "finish" the job. They stop sooner and 'broom' to cover any missed spots. Likely just me.
Is he carrying some fresh concrete in the pail for patch to throw in the missed spots.
Thanks guys! He used the bucket to hold water which he would periodically cast out onto the pad as he passed over it with the power trowel. He made things look so easy I started thinking that I could do it just as good. I quickly came to my senses and remembered why I decided to have a professional handle this portion of my build. I put a lot of thought onto the 'brooming' thing. I went with the light brooming to have a little texture without the aggravation of sweeping a course floor.
-lee
Looks good to me but I don't know anything. ;D
Lee,
I finally got to read this thread cover-to-cover this evening. Very good reading,too! I love it when someone with the skills, tools, and parts brings older equipment back to life. Awesome work! 8) 8) 8)
this is really cool to see progress.
Lee, where in NC are you located??
Lambee,
I'm about an hour west of Charlotte.
The outboard PTO bearing, sheave and QD bushing came in yesterday. I tacked the outboard support in place and mounted the bearing. Originally, the PTO shaft extended beyond the bearing about 8" with a keyed section. To me, this looked dangerous as the offbearer would be walking very close to the shaft. I could just imagine an injury waiting to happen if the end of the shaft grabbed one's shirt. After that mental picture, I cut the shaft so that only about 1/2" extends beyond the bearing. I'll add a guard to the rear of the frame to prevent someone from falling into the rotating shaft/sheave should they lose their balance.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02940.JPG)
I need to make some adjustments to the rear motor mounts so everything will line up straight then I'll weld the mounts in place and finish welding the rear bearing support. I have some caps to weld on which will cover the exposed open ends of the tubing to finish things off. Unless I've missed something, that will complete the engine frame. This thing got heavy... fast! I think it's around 600 lbs now.
I'm heading over to the steel supplier today to pick up the tubing and flat stock to make the legs for the mill frame. I'm hoping to get all the legs fabricated today. I decided to set the mill at a height which will provide for an 8" clearance under the blade. The headblocks will be at 40" from the pad so I'll have to build a platform for the sawyer to stand on. The offbearing rolls will be at ~38" from the pad. This height seems like it will be comfortable to work at. My welding table is 38" tall and I don't have to bend or reach working around it. It's going to be a busy day!
-lee
You definitely have a good concrete man, there's lots of them around but they are a special breed, if you don't believe it then order up 2o yds and give it a go.
Hi all. This post has to be the next best thing to actually doing such a project. Virtual sawmill reality. Perfect.
One question, if i may. Are you planning some vibration control between frame and floor? Or straight bolted down?
All the best Lee and Dad.
Quote from: customsawyer on June 05, 2012, 06:52:37 PM
Looks good to me but I don't know anything. ;D
I've found that life is much less stressful once I finally excepted that.......... :D
What a day! I'm still tired from yesterday and I'm getting ready for a 12 hour shift on my day job at the moment. :( Anyway, it was well worth it. Lets see... where to start. Oh, the vibration thing. I am planning on bolting the mill frame and husk directly to the concrete. I don't think there will be a great vibration issue there. I visited a few commercial mills that were setup this way. I still haven't decided whether or not to set the engine frame directly on the concrete or put something in between. Cedar timbers have been suggested. Any ideas?
Back to yesterday. Dad came over nice and early and we got started. I picked up the required steel, 3" sqr x 1/4" wall tube, 2" sqr x 3/16" wall tube, 1/4" x 6" flat and 1/2" x 4" flat. As usual, the old Wells #8 saw started the fun.
Here I'm cutting the 1/2" x 4" flat stock which will be the feet.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02942.JPG)
Here is one of the 28 legs being cut to length.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02946.JPG)
Dad is a little camera shy. ::) Anyway, he's drilling a .710" hole in the feet for the 5/8" concrete anchors.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02944.JPG)
I set up a little jig on the welding table to glue the feet to the legs.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02951.JPG)
While Dad was busy in the Bridgeport, I finished welding the rear bearing support. I still have to finish capping the frame but that will have to wait until the engine is taken off. I have a little alignment issue that will require some adjustment to the right side, rear motor mount. That shouldn't take long. Once complete, I'll burn the motor mounts in and remove the engine to complete the frame. The jury is still out on the paint vs powercoat debate.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02954.JPG)
Here is one of the legs tacked up and ready for finish welding. As I mentioned before, there are 28 of these along with 8 shorter legs which will go under the husk.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02965.JPG)
The triangles are gussets which will be attached to the upper section of each leg. I didn't quite get that far yesterday before quitting time. I did manage to get all 56 of them cut and deburred. I'll set up another jig to tack those in place.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02963.JPG)
One more day like we had yesterday and I think I can complete all the legs and start welding them to the track frame. Things are finally starting to come together! :)
-lee
Lee,
I'm tuckered out just from reading what you did yesterday...
Keep up the great job.
Herb
Quote from: SPD748 on June 08, 2012, 10:28:37 AM
I am planning on bolting the mill frame and husk directly to the concrete. I don't think there will be a great vibration issue there. I visited a few commercial mills that were setup this way. I still haven't decided whether or not to set the engine frame directly on the concrete or put something in between. Cedar timbers have been suggested. Any ideas?
You're making great progress on the mill and this thread is awesome. I can't answer your question and find myself in the same boat and I am second guessing myself on my decision to lay the tracks out directly on the concrete as the previous owner had it.
They haven't been bolted down yet so I could take a step back and start over. ::)
The main reason why I want to do that now is for the shaft that was driving the cable drum.
The previous owner had cut thru the track timber with a pretty big notch for the shaft.
I have new timbers and am not certain that is the right way to go.
I'm gonna do what you do so make the right decision. :D
Geez Moose, talk about pressure! :D
I ordered a W6 x 16 beam to join the track frame and husk. I'll cut this beam into two ~7' sections. The beam sections will be capped on either end with C7 x 9.8 channel. There will be 8 legs under this assembly to support the structure. I'll bolt the track and husk to the beam sections. As with the frame legs, this assembly's legs will be bolted to the concrete. I think that will keep everything in place. Before I disassembled the mill from it's original location, I measured the bottom of the husk to be 3" higher than the bottom of the track frame. I'll have to make spacers to attach to the top of the beam sections to provide this space.
The beam is supposed to be delivered tomorrow. If so, I can start the assembly process!
-lee
is that wayne gettys mill you bought ? if not it looks just like it set up and all. do your self a favor and go to edmiston hydraulics in ferguson nc , get a log turner and install it while you are setting it up. before my father retired we sawed 100,000 feet a year on a mill just like that the hydraulic turner was the best investment we ever made in our business. you are welcome to come see mine work im only about an hour away.
You are correct sir. I purchased the mill from Wayne. It was originally ran by his father, JO who sadly passed last year. JO and my Dad were good friends. I sent you a PM.
-lee
Good morning guys.
Not much to report today. I had to teach yesterday however I was able to pick up the steel beam that I ordered. I have Friday off and plan on spending the day finishing up the leg sections and hopefully welding them onto the track frame. Man, this day job really gets in the way of the mill progress :)
Here's the beam:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02970.JPG)
That's 2" square tubing beside the beam for scale comparison. I hope everyone has a good day!
-lee
I got sidetracked the past few days however I managed to finish up the legs yesterday. All was going great until the MIG ran out of gas. :( Anyway, here are a few pictures of the legs.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02995.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03006.JPG)
I got a few of the gussets tacked in place before the bottle ran out.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03007.JPG)
I hope everyone has a good weekend!
-lee
Good morning all...
Dad came over yesterday and we celebrated Father's Day by rebuilding my PTO! What better way to celebrate Dad's day than to spend quality time together getting our hands greasy? Everything was going great until I discovered that the i.d. of the clutch disc was .750 too small. I didn't really want to machine the clutch material however I didn't see any option short of sending the disc back for the correct one. Being impatient, I decided to have at it with a boring head.
Here are the various parts including a small selection of hammers :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03009.JPG)
The 14" clutch disc, before machining.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03010.JPG)
The main shaft and clutch fork.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03012.JPG)
I stacked the clutch disc pieces on an angle plate and clamped it using a stronghand clamp. I wasn't sure this setup would hold. I imagined all sorts of bad things happening when the boring bar tore the discs from the clamp. Much to my surprise, the setup held. I took ~.400" from the radius. Not knowing exactly what the disc is made of, I wore a paint mask and used a vacuum to handle the dust.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03013.JPG)
Here is a view of the 'face' of the reassembled clutch.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03015.JPG)
Here is a view of the rear of the assembly.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03016.JPG)
I'll add a little paint to finish things up.
-lee
Hi Lee, I posted the pics of the sawdust chain for you on a few post down. Hope it helps....Lyle
Thanks Lyle. Man, that mill of yours is a beast!
-lee
Hey guys,
I'm not sure if anyone else in the south noticed or not but it was seriously hot yesterday! What a wonderful day to don a leather jacket and welding hood ;D. At least I have a building to work in. My thermometer pegged on 94 around 3 o'clock. I think I went through a case of bottled water. Did I mention that it was hot?
In spite of the heat, I met with some success. I got the legs welded onto the outer track frame sections. I still have the center (longest) section to go.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03023.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03028.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03036.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03037.JPG)
I was set on finishing the center section as well however a couple of dump trucks arrived with the dirt that I ordered to backfill the concrete pad. After spreading the dirt around the pad I discovered that I under estimated the amount of dirt needed. I called and ordered two more loads to be delivered next week.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03055.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03060.JPG)
Thanks for all the support and encouragement along the way guys. Stay tuned and I'll keep the story coming.
-lee
Nice work on the project.
But why dirt? and not some gravel that won't be mud when it rains? Just curious.
I'll put ABC on top of the dirt once everything settles. You're correct, it would be a muddy mess without it. It's much cheaper to backfill with dirt than stone.
-lee
Thought I knew my ABC's, but that one escapes me. ;)
Sorry, the designation for "Crusher Run" or crushed stone with rock screens in my area is "ABC". Its about 60% stone and 40% screens or rock dust. It packs well and resists washing.
-lee
Gotcha!
That is what I prefer to use when I lay down a drive. Thanks for the explanation, and sounds like a good plan.
Its always a little cooler doing your own mill projects than the dreded honeydo list. Frank C.
Around here that sounds like what we call CA6
we call it 304 or 411 mix
Good evening guys.
I got the radiator mounted to the engine frame today. I also finished the bracket to mount the bypass oil filters on. I had all the pieces layed out for some pictures and bam... the camera battery is dead :-\. No really... I did all these things. I know I know, if there isn't a picture it didn't happen. :) Not to worry, the camera is on the charger. I'll post some pictures as soon as possible. Until then, happy sawing everyone!
-lee
Awesome work...
Makes me tired thinkin about all the work... Whew
Oh believe me... I am tired. I just keep focusing on the end result. I think I'm down to days now instead of weeks or months. Keep on keeping on...
-lee
Good morning guys.
Today, I'm welding the rest of the track frame. I hope get it finished though this heat may have other ideas. I was trucking along pretty good this morning until I ran out of wire. Looks like I'll be taking a trip to pick up another roll. I'll post pictures of the progress this evening.
Bring on the ice water!
-lee
Looking forward to pics
Ice water sounds awesome !
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03065.JPG)
I'm afraid this got the best of me. 98 deg inside the shop is just plain HOT, even with a 36" fan running.
I finished the welds on one of the track frame sections before succumbing to the heat yesterday. The last and largest section will have to wait until this heat wave passes. Today, I finished up the radiator supports, fuel filter and bypass oil filter mounts. I think they turned out pretty good.
I made the radiator supports from 1 1/2" x .083" wall tube.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03074.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03080.JPG)
I capped the open end of the tubing and attached a bracket to bolt to the radiator shroud.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03084.JPG)
I used a short section of DOM tube to create a flat surface for a 3/8" bolt.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03085.JPG)
Here is the bypass oil filter mount. I used 1 1/2" x 3/16" tube and capped the open end.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03066.JPG)
I have the hoses cut to length and ready to be crimped. I'll have to take them back to NAPA for that.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03079.JPG)
Finally, here is the fuel filter mount. Both the oil and fuel mounts bolt to the engine frame. The frame tubing is 1/4" thick so I just drilled and tapped 3/8"-16 holes. I'm going to re-route some of the fuel lines to clean up the plumbing a little.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03087.JPG)
Tomorrow I'm going to try and finish the hydraulic pump mount. Until then, I think I'll enjoy the couch and a Sam Adam's light!
-lee
Such good work
Awesome awesome awesome
Quote from: SPD748 on June 30, 2012, 03:54:17 PM
Until then, I think I'll enjoy the couch and a Sam Adam's light!
-lee
And a BBQ Sandwich. Very good pics Lee!
Funny you should mention BBQ David. There is a nice sized slab of pork in the refrigerator that's bound for the grill around 7! I'm no chef however it will have to do until my beloved Bridges reopens :)
-lee
Quote from: SPD748 on June 30, 2012, 05:26:41 PM
Funny you should mention BBQ David. There is a nice sized slab of pork in the refrigerator that's bound for the grill around 7! I'm no chef however it will have to do until my beloved Bridges reopens :)
-lee
Don't put it on the grill.....just lay it outside on foil......It's over 100 outside! ;D
Beautiful work! So much to learn from this thread. Keep it up.
Tripp
Lee,
One thing we ran into in the last couple years was rubber fuel lines swelling up inside. We were using "diesel rated" hose, and it got harder and harder to start, until I was about going nuts, thinking I was chasing an air leak or something along that line. I finally happened to pull a line and cut it, and the whole inside layer was delaminated from the outer layers. I changed to a nylon line that was rated for fuel and air, and haven't had a problem since. I wound up going that way on all our equipment, including my 2 trucks. I've talked to quite a few other guys in the area and we've all had problems...seems something in the fuel is attacking the rubber lines. Just something to keep in the back of your mind.
That sure is a great looking setup you've got going there!
John
John,
Thanks for the tip. I plan on running around 30-50% biodiesel mix in the engine so I'll have to change to Viton lines. The residual alcohol in the biodiesel will attack rubber causing what you have described. The Viton is expensive however it's totally alcohol resistant and will last for years even in direct sunlight.
-lee
This is a fun project to follow and it is a challenge that is being met first hand,awesome job guys and keep the photos coming.
Ok so for the third day in a row it's 100+ degrees. I'm beginning to think the heat has it out for me... and my equipment.
Anyway, I managed to finish the hydraulic pump mount.
I started with a some 1/4" plate:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03094.JPG)
I had to bore the hole for the pump flange:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03095.JPG)
Everything was going great until...POW! The main drive belt on my Bridgeport let go:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03100.JPG)
Thankfully I finished the bore for the pump flange before the belt puked. I had to resort to the trusty saw and grinder to get the rest done.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03103.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03107.JPG)
The pump seems to fit pretty good.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03111.JPG)
I'll bolt the mount to the engine frame after making sure the pulleys are aligned.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03113.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03115.JPG)
I think that's it for today. I'll order the Bridgeport belt tomorrow. I really can't complain, the machine is over 20 years old and that was the original belt. Stay cool guys!
-lee
Lee, I'm really enjoying your journey and appreciate what you are going through. Thanks for your documentation. It will serve others well. Myself included. :)
Good show!
My drive belt let go about a month ago . They are not cheap for a belt that size b ut they do last a long time. Ilike your engineering , that makes for a good setup.
I just noticed in the pix of your mounted hyd pump how close the gap is in getting your radiator hose on .gonna be a bit tight.
Quote from: slider on July 03, 2012, 07:09:28 AM
I just noticed in the pix of your mounted hyd pump how close the gap is in getting your radiator hose on .gonna be a bit tight.
It's a bit of an illusion. I'm not sure if this picture will help or not. There is about 3" of clearance between the pulley and the radiator hose. I may have to go with a larger or smaller pulley to dial the pump flow in later. I have room to go with a 4" larger pulley thus slowing the pump down considerably, though I really don't think I'll need to.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03118.JPG)
On a side note, one of my friends looked at one of the previous pictures and asked about the gap in the radiator hose. I explained that I had to move the radiator forward on the new engine frame versus the old setup. He then replies, "Well, how are you going to keep the water from leaking with that gap?" I couldn't resist the temptation and stated, "You see, these Detroit engines create such great water pressure that the flow will pass from one pipe to the other across the gap without spilling a single drop." I managed to hold it together for a few seconds before having to laugh. I still don't think he understands :)
Have a good day guys!
-lee
Another hot hot hot day guys. I managed to finish the legs on the track frame sections. The next step will be to fabricate the I beam sections that will tie the frame to the husk. I'm waiting to find out what the blade/headblock clearance is before moving forward. I set the frame sections on the concrete pad and took a few pictures.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03131.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03126.JPG)
It's starting to look like something i suppose :)
-lee
And sawdust removal is planned? Blow off into a pit maybe? Or thinking a chain and paddle setup?
Appreciate the pics and am impressed with the design and fabricating talent you have. 8)
One could become envious real fast. ;)
Thanks beenthere. I still haven't decided on dust removal. I'm kind of torn between a conveyor system and the trusty drag chain. I think I'm going to set things up and see where the dust actually lands and accumulates before deciding. I have a conveyor system designed in CAD that I know will remove the majority of the dust however it's a little complicated and would cost way more to construct than a drag chain. We'll see.
-lee
I made a little progress today guys. I had big plans however a thunderstorm moved through and changed all that. Maybe tomorrow...
I cut the I beam sections that will join the track frame and husk. Once again, the 'ole saw started things off.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03134.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03148.JPG)
Next, I clamped the legs to the beam and welded them in place.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03158.JPG)
The finished weld.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03163.JPG)
Finally, the finished (so to speak) beam sections.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03170.JPG)
Hopefully I'll be able to set the sections in place tomorrow and align everything. If so, I'll start bolting things together.
-lee
I'm pretty bummed out today guys. It has been raining on and off all day here. My next step is to finish the frame that will join the husk to the track frame. Once it's finished, it will need to be painted. I'll have to paint the frame outside which I can't do in the rain :(
I shouldn't complain though. We really need the rain around here.
On a positive note, the belt for my Bridgeport came today. It looks like I'll be rebuilding that 2J head tomorrow.
-lee
Very warm here, I have been able to do some sawing tho, I cant stay out in the sun to long I start to leak to much...lol The sawdust pile is growing!
I finally had a day to work on the mill. Today I finished the frame that will join the track to the husk. I started by welding the channel to the beams.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03204.JPG)
Then I fabricated and attached the risers for the husk.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03188.JPG)
Next I drilled the holes for the bolts that will attach the track to this frame.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03207.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03194.JPG)
Then I set the husk on the frame to make sure everything lined up. If you look close, there's the beginnings of a mill in there somewhere :)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03214.JPG)
Finally, I sprayed a little paint. I chose "Ford Gray" from NAPA. It's pre-mixed and available in gallons and spray cans. I chose this color because I can buy a few spray cans to touch up if necessary. I think the gray will look nice.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03225.JPG)
-lee
Lee,your welds are beautiful.....bert
I'll second that motion,excellent welding !
I will third it , i have been watching the welds from the start.just killer.nuf said
Kind of making the rest of us bubblegummers look bad.
You seem to have a bit skill welding than me for sure.
Chris
Keep them coming, I like it.
That is a nice colour choice
Almost as nice as the welds
You do fine fine work
Thanks for the kind words guys. Some of the welds didn't turn out the way I planned however I think they will hold. So far I haven't burned or electrocuted myself so I think I'm on the right track 8)
-lee
My day job called today so all I managed to accomplish was setting the new frame on the concrete pad. Hey... it's progress :)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03226.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03229.JPG)
-lee
Welds that look good, usally are good.What do you use Lee wire or stick.? Frank C.
Good morning Frank,
The process here is MIG. I've found that .035 wire works well for a mix of material thicknesses. Most of the material I used is 1/4" thick though there are a few others in there somewhere. My Dad taught me to weld using an old Lincoln stick machine about 25 years ago. I switched to MIG as soon as I could afford to buy one. Don't get me wrong, stick machines are great and certainly have their place however for the type of work I do, MIG works for me ;D
-lee
Lee,MIG is the way to go I'am an old stick man and too old and stuborn to change.Had a nice MIG welder in my shop at the firehouse but the firefighters were always playing with it, anytime I needed it I'd have to fix it,gave up and got rid of it.Used a 250 amp Hobart motor generator DC one fine welder.When stuff is thin still a tourch welder. Frank C.
looking good lee i'd just go ahead and put an edmiston log turner on it while its still nice and clean we bought one 15 years ago. never a minutes trouble after installation. never a moments regret. takes the slave labor out of the sawyers end we were sawing large white pine dad and i both were down in our backs from turning 30" plus logs best money we ever spent on the mill Edmistons hydraulics ferguson nc great guys to deal with good luck
correction edmistons address is boomer nc phone 336-921-2304
Is the Edmiston log turner a chain or bar type? I can't seem to find any information about it on the web. Do they manufacture the turner or sell another brand? Sorry for all the questions. You are correct, I do want/need to add a hydraulic turner now while things are still in the design stage.
-lee
Really enjoying this thread keep us posted. ;D
chain type just like the meadows (according to them meadows stole the idea from them) these guys aren't the computer type just call them they make them in house also they build live decks,edgers and complete hydraulic mills just some old time sawmillers who had a good idea and acted on it
Good afternoon guys.
I had some domestic chores to do today so I didn't get to work on the mill very long. I decided to use what little time I had to work on the air intake system for the engine. Here's what I came up with.
I've never been a fan of oil bath air cleaners so I decided to mount a more modern paper filter. I chose a 5" outlet Donaldson "ECC"' style filter. This filter is housed in a plastic drum that has a sealed top thus preventing water from entering the engine. Air is drawn into the filter from the bottom. According to Donaldson, this model will flow approximately twice the air required by the engine so it should work nicely.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03241.JPG)
I want to add a "filter minder" to the system to monitor the filter's condition. I had one from another project that had 1/8" npt threads. The Detroit air intake housing that I have has a boss where I decided to drill and tap through for the gauge.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03251.JPG)
The angle of the cast housing was 40 degrees. I wanted to drill and tap the pipe threads through at 45 degrees so the gauge would mount parallel to the filter. I had to clamp the housing on the mill table using a couple of my welding clamps. This was a first for me. I wasn't sure it would hold but as it turns out, things went smoothly. I had to drill through with a carbide spotting drill first because there was a bolt broken off in the housing. The carbide plunged right through. Next, I bored through with a series of endmills. After boring the correct hole diameter, I used a 11/16" endmill to counterbore the hole. Finally I tapped the hole to 1/4" npt.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03248.JPG)
After the machine work was complete, I installed a 1/4" npt to 1/8" npt bushing.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03255.JPG)
I'm going to sandblast the housing and rebuild the linkage that controls the emergency stop flaps before painting the entire assembly.
Have a great day guys!
-lee
I've been promising my Dad that I'd build him a log splitter all summer so I took yesterday off from the mill and glued one together for him. I broke out the sandblaster to clean up a few areas on the splitter before paint and managed to sneak in the air intake housing for my engine.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03256.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03257.JPG)
I picked up a can of Krylon DE1618 "Detroit Diesel Alpine Green" paint. It's very close to the engine color however it's not quite the same. I'm going to take a part from the engine to the paint store and see if they can match it better.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03264.JPG)
Ok, back to the splitter :)
-lee
Way to go Lee for helping your Dad! Even I appreciate that and I know your Dad does.
When do you have time to catch BAD GUYS? It seems you stay busy.
Made a run to Bridges Thursday. Can you do something about all the construction on 74 ? :D
David,
No bad guys this week or next. We're in the middle of firearms qualifications so I'm spending my time out at the range. I'm afraid I can't cull the construction on 74. They've been paving for weeks it seems. I'm glad Bridges was able to recover from that fire in the cook house. Why am I suddenly so hungry?
-lee
Good morning all,
The past few days have been really hectic around here. I've been extremely busy with my day job. As stated before, I've been promising my Dad that I'd build him a log splitter. He has everything (engine, cylinder, pump, etc...) and just needed the splitter frame. It may be a little off topic however here's what I came up with.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03267.JPG)
I had a little grey paint sitting around from another... um... project. I think it turned out pretty nice. Dad's happy with it so I'd say the mission was a success.
Ok, ok... Lyle is charging ahead so I'm back to the mill. Wish me luck!
-lee
Looks like your a pretty good welder and painter too.
Appears to be a VERY good job Lee.
I love L.E. guys that can do things with their minds and hands......keeps them out of the Donut shop! :D
That frame is not big enough for even a small Detroit . Does it have its own chassis?
Is the axle tube also the hydraulic resivoir? (would somebody kindly tell me how to spell that stupid word, I really need a dictionary) I've only been in on one splitter build and all I can say is you can't beef them up enough, very nice job.
:D
We know what you mean. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservoir
I type what I think it is in the "google" search box, and a list comes up of possibles. My search box is in the upper right corner, and not sure if I put it there or it just happens to be there.
On my splitter, the reservoir is in the axle tube. ;)
Hey Lee, I have a log splitter simular to what you are building, I would suggest bringing it up a little higher so a fella isnt always bending over. At least thats the problem I have with mine. I have been threatening to raise it up another 6 to 8 inches.
here is a couple of pics fur ya
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29162/GEDC0749.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29162/GEDC0750.JPG)
The splitter I have is similar, and to gain height I run it up on my car ramps with a taller stand under the tongue. Suppose larger diam tires would/could do the same.
Helps to stage the logs above the splitter on a slight slope so the bucked pieces easily roll down to the splitter, and the split wood is stacked on pallets to be removed and set for drying. Then a canopy is placed if shade is needed.
Bought this splitter in 1984, and logged over 700 hours on it. Original 8 hp B&S, and is operated just above idle.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10180/100_1313_28Large29.JPG)
Hi guys,
Man, this splitter has attracted almost as much attention as my mill :). I set the height of this unit low by design. My Dad is a little... um... vertically challenged :D Ok ok, he towers 5' 5" above the earth's surface so I set the beam height especially for him. I built my own splitter much higher. He's going with a 6hp/11gpm/3.5" cylinder setup. He's in no hurry to split wood and doesn't split anything that won't 'pop' with an axe so this combination will work very well for his needs. At 76 years young I think he's had enough of using an axe to keep is house and shop warm. To be honest, I really don't know how much use his splitter will see. I keep his wood shed full but he's been asking for a splitter of his own. I'll add some pictures of the finished product in a couple of days.
-lee
Lee,a very handy addition if your dad is going to do larger stuff is a hydraulic lifting arm on the outher side of where hes standing that you can roll a chunk on lift it to the wedge and use it as A table so half doesn't fall on the ground. Frank C.
lee
when you have a few spare minutes look at talladega machinery's web site they have several log turners listed. might be something you would be interested in
virgil
Sandyhills,I can't spell it ether thats why I call it a hydraulic tank. Frank C.
Good afternoon all!
Its been a few days since my last post. Sorry about that. I took a day to help a friend replace the clutch in his father-in-law's truck. As fate would have it, the clutch in my little truck let go two days later. The good news is, both trucks are back in service. The bad news is, I can't seem to get this grease cleaned from under my fingernails :D.
During all this clutch business, I managed to pick up a piece of 16" x 1/4" wall round tubing to make a hydraulic tank for my mill. I'm going to cut it to 34" long so, if my math is correct, that's ~27 gallons total capacity. I think I'll go with 20 gallons to allow for thermal expansion. I'm going to mount the tank to the front of the engine frame. I'll add some pictures as soon as I start the fabrication process. For now, I'm off to work. I hope everyone has a great day!
-lee
I found a little time to work on the mill today. I started with a sheet of 1/4" steel.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03268.JPG)
I picked up a piece of 16" od tubing for the hydraulic tank. I needed two ends for the tank. I found a circle jig for my plasma cutter online for $225. I opted for a cheaper version.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03272.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03273.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03275.JPG)
I cut two ends and tacked them in place.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03277.JPG)
Then, I cut holes for the suction and return lines.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03285.JPG)
I'll weld these bungs in place later.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03292.JPG)
Once all the holes were burned through the tank, I welded the seam on the ends.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03286.JPG)
To end the day, I cut a couple of brackets to mount the tank.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03290.JPG)
Ok... that's it for today. More later guys!
-lee
Ok, the American Legion Baseball World Series is finally over (had to work off-duty). I have the weekend off so I'm back to the grind on the mill. I'm going to finish welding a few areas on the track frame then pressure wash and paint everything. Hopefully I'll complete that task tomorrow. If so, I'll be able assemble the mill on Saturday. I have the camera all charged up for the event! Wish me luck.
-lee
Lee,
I've really enjoyed reading through your progress. Can't wait to see the mill running.
Wooo Hooo Im looking forward to this Mate ;) ;D ;D ;D 8) 8) 8)
Also Im sorry I forgot to Add if your looking for a Hyd Turner You cant go past a Mellot 4A turner works like a H/Duty cant hook and they are quicker and easier on the cant than a Chain turner they are best suited for stuff 30" down to 6" dia but Dad and My Uncles used theirs to turn stuff upto 4' dia on a pretty regular basis upto
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17724/2195/gates_sawmil_weddingl_142.jpg)
Ohh alittle History Note ;) Edmistons Sawmills was started by Ex Meadows Mills Staff in the late 60s thats why the Edmiston is a similar size to a Meadows Mill hence why almost everything fits between them and Meadows #2 fit Meadows use to Buy their Hyd components off them untill 82 but I think that was more to support them than compete with Edmistons as they only did Hyd mills where as Meadows Did both Manual and Auto Mills ;)
Regards Chris
Chris,
That's a mean looking turner. I haven't decided which style to go with yet but I'll definitely give that that turner a second look. Thanks for the picture and history info!
-lee
Today? Well, today I worked my DanG rear off! I had 15 tons of ABC gravel along with 17 tons of dirt delivered. After several hours of tractor/boxblade/pulverizer work I came up with this:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03296.JPG)
I back filled the concrete pad, with dirt, on all four sides and put gravel on the front side. It looks like I'll need another load of gravel to finish things out. After grading, I moved the track sections to the shop for final welding.
Welding? Well, that will have to wait until tomorrow. I've had all I can take for one day. Family time calls...
-lee
Nice job :)
Good evening guys. Today, I finished welding the hydraulic tank. Tomorrow, I'm on the track frame. Here are a few pictures of the tank.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03299%7E0.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03302.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03308.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03312.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03317.JPG)
It'll look better with a little paint. Bear with me guys... it's coming along.
-lee
lee
You sure do nice work. A great talent to have and enjoy.
awsome work Lee!!!!!!!!! 8)
great job
Well DanG it Lee! How the heck am I aposta show a pic of me chicken Chit welding now! LOL
Jeeze I have been away from the site for a little bit.
I was saving this thread in the back of my mind to set some time for and get all caught up
Gosh I was hoping for some sawdust :) kidding!
Here is how i know that your welds are top notch.
When I look at the set on the end of the hyd tank..I caught myself swearing under my breath with that super impressed tone.
Those welds give me something to shoot for on my projects
Although I will be posting shots of my welds at a distance, like from the neighbours house for example :)
Wow! I just noticed this thread has over 10k views! :o It looks like more than one person has been paying attention. Thanks for all the kind words and compliments guys! I have to admit that I've become discouraged several times while working on this project. Every time I do, I look back here and re-read every post. Somehow it brings things back into focus for me.
Believe me guys, both my Dad and I are beyond ready to see some sawdust! I've taken all next week off so that Dad and I can get this thing on the road (so to speak). I think we have everything lined up to make it happen. The fabrication is almost complete. I still have to make a tray to fit the 8D battery which I hope to finish today. With a little luck, I'll be able to start painting the track frame today also. As always, pictures to follow. Thanks again for all the attention and support!
-lee
What a day! The track frame is finished and ready for paint. The engine frame and hydraulic tank are ready for paint. I'm pretty sure everything is ready for paint. So... Wednesday I'm painting (weather permitting).
The original track's riser welds were less than adequate so I made a small repair.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03319.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03320.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03322.JPG)
After the riser was glued back in place, I added a new guard.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03326.JPG)
Outside the shop, I cleaned up the area around the concrete pad.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03332.JPG)
That frame sure looks lonely out there. Hopefully, this is the last picture of the pad looking so empty!
-lee
PAINT!!!
I think pictures will say enough.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03343.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03344.JPG)
-lee
I guess ya had ta do sumtin to hide them there welds....Ya know Im just kiddin...lol awsome job like always!!!!!
Quote from: lyle niemi on August 29, 2012, 08:26:22 PM
I guess ya had ta do sumtin to hide them there welds....Ya know Im just kiddin...lol awsome job like always!!!!!
Ha ha ....that right there is funny :)
I can't wait to see this mill run.
I wish my welds looked the nice.
My welds look that nice from Ak. :D
Great job on the mill and keeping us informed.
Sawdust pile!!!!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03372.JPG)
Ok ok... sorry guys. Seriously, I did begin the assembly process today. Once again, I worked my little tractor to death.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03361.JPG)
Looking better...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03365.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03366.JPG)
I set the husk in place.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03369.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03377.JPG) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03375.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03386.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03388.JPG)
All of those weld comments just might increase my self esteem... a little anyway :). For those that seem to think my stringer beads look good I'll include this:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03393.JPG)
So, does the paint make them look better or worse?
-lee
Them dang chinkins seem ta chit everywhere...lol ;D
Ok guys... I'm back from a little vacation and ready to get this thing going. Tomorrow, Dad and I are setting the mill frame in place for the final time (hopefully). The camera is on the charger and the wrenches are clean and ready. Wish us luck!
-lee
Well
Luck to ya's
I'm so glad that a part of this story is the father son aspect, the other part is the inevitable sawdust.... Can't wait to see it!
Lee,luck has little to do with it, you have the mindset and ability to be a top notch sawyer,I know your mill will be right or it won't spin. Frank C.
Frank... I do try and I can not stand for something mechanical to be anything but perfect. My Dad scowls at my idealism from time to time however he certainly appreciates the fruits of my never ending labor :).
I started the day with the goal of aligning everything and installing the cable drum shaft. For those that don't know, if the cable drum shaft is aligned, that means the track and husk are in alignment... a HUGE deal. Dad came over bright and early and we got started. First we had to make some adjustments to the track frame. After sliding the track frame over we set the cable drum shaft in place, again using my little tractor:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03448.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03451.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03454.JPG)
That's my Dad with is trademark hat and cigarette :D
He looked like he needed a little help so I jumped in.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03456.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03457%7E0.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03468.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03474.JPG)
After several hours of prying and beating and hoping... it finally came together.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03477.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03480.JPG)
I had to make some shims to adjust the height of the husk. Hopefully we will be able to install those and bolt the track to the husk tomorrow. If so, we'll move on to bolting the track to the concrete pad and setting the arbor in place.
Boy am I tired. That's all for tonight fellas. Stay tuned for an update tomorrow!
-lee
Be careful Lee.....Don't ring them bolts off with those set of arms ya got. :D :D :D
David,
Dad said, "Bring me a pull bar" to which I replied, "I've got one right here."
He said, "These bolts need to be tightened, not broken." :D
I though about it a second... then smiled and ran to the shop for a pull bar :)
-lee
-lee
Very impressive. And looks like ya did that without the cutting torch by your side. 8)
Quoteif the cable drum shaft is aligned, that means the track and husk are in alignment...
I can't dispute that, but it doesn't ring true in my head.
I hope you are right, but I've not heard alignment explained that way. ;)
Got a flashback just looking at your pictures Lee,everything on an old circular mill is heavy,good work. Frank C.
Quote from: beenthere on September 05, 2012, 08:03:06 PM
-lee
Very impressive. And looks like ya did that without the cutting torch by your side. 8)
Quoteif the cable drum shaft is aligned, that means the track and husk are in alignment...
I can't dispute that, but it doesn't ring true in my head.
I hope you are right, but I've not heard alignment explained that way. ;)
To clarify, I mean aligned longitudinally... that is, the track to the husk. There's still the blade alignment to contend with. That will have to wait for another day.
-lee
Nice job lee. I admire a man of talent. Thanks for the thread. Can't wait to see it flinging sawdust.
Today? Well, today my Dad and I managed to accomplish a little. I say 'little' because I'm too tired to think of an appropriate word. I'll let the pictures tell the story...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03502%7E0.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03504%7E0.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03505%7E0.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03508.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03512.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03516.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03523.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03528.JPG)
That's all for today. Tomorrow is another story...
-lee
My Dad tried to help some today however it was just too hot out in the sun. I sent him home early and worked in the shop until the sun gave way a little. I decided to work on the carriage pulleys a little. The original pulleys were a little less than ideal. One had a bronze bushing installed which was completely worn out. The other one had a steel bushing. That one destroyed the bolt holding it on the track frame. Both pulleys had a lot of wear on the rim, where the cable runs around it. I knew these were pretty much toast from the beginning.
My original mill had two good pulleys which were fitted with sealed roller bearings. Unfortunately, all four bearings were seized. So... yet another 'project within a project' began.
Here are pulleys from the new mill frame.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03550.JPG)
... and the pulleys from my original frame (with the bearings removed)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03552.JPG)
New:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03551.JPG)
Old:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03553.JPG)
Ok, so the 'old' pulleys were of a better design, being fitted with roller bearings. I ordered a new set of bearings from NAPA, which will be here tomorrow morning. In the meantime, I decided to make new spacers.
The original spacers were steel which, in my opinion, should have been something a little more forgiving. I decided to go with bronze. I had some bronze bushings that needed to be modified. I started by sawing them to a rough length.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03558.JPG)
After sawing, I setup my rotary table and lathe chuck on the Bridgeport.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03560.JPG)
Then, I machined the spacers to a finished length.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03564.JPG)
I have to wait until tomorrow to install the new roller bearings and check the installed dimension before finishing the spacers. The last operation will be to cut a snap ring groove in the spacers. To finish out the day, I drilled the rest of the holes in the concrete pad and installed the anchors. Tomorrow there will be a little more machining on the spacers, sandblasting the pulleys, installing the bearings and spacers and painting the entire assembly. Ok... it's nap time.
-lee
how about another update
Good morning guys.
Saturday, I went to pickup the bearings for the cable pulleys. I found out there was a mix up with order and the bearings wouldn't be here until Tuesday :(. This small setback led us to talking about the sawyer's platform and walkway. I've asked about the recommended height of the platform here, on the forum, in the past. I've also researched several old mill books and manuals I've collected. Most of the opinions I came up with were that the headblocks should be around knee height in order to make turning logs and operating the setworks and feedworks comfortable and safe. That being said, my platform would have to be ~21" high.
Here's my idea so far. I'm going to build the platform using 4" x 5.4lb channel. It will be 13'6" long x 4' wide with a center support cross member running the length of the frame. It will have steel legs, bolted to the concrete pad. It will be installed as close as possible to the husk and extend to the right, parallel to the track frame. At 13'6" long, there should be enough room to walk the length of the carriage for dogging and turning. Now for the deck surface: David (POSTONLT40HD) has been gracious enough to offer his milling skills to cut some white oak for the deck surface. I was thinking about having the oak quarter sawn to minimize shrinkage (I think). The planks will be 1 1/2" x 6" x 48" each. (Because of the cross member, they will span 24" and be attached at three points) I'll have the frame built and painted before cutting the oak so it can be installed within 24 hours of being sawn. What do you guys think? The steel, I know how to work... The wood... I'm still learning. Does anyone see potential problems with my idea?
-lee
I dont see a problem with it as long as its quarter-sawn like you said (so the majority of shrinkage is in thickness, not in width) and the boards are not excessively knotty to induce a weak point that might later break.
Lee,i would leave gaps between the oak decking for sawdust /snow/rain or whatever to run through.I like a little spring in the floor,seems less tiring.I would not worry about quartersawing your not building a bowling alley.Oak is half way between wood and steel. Frank C.
Quote from: bandmiller2 on September 10, 2012, 09:07:17 PM
Lee,i would leave gaps between the oak decking for sawdust /snow/rain or whatever to run through.I like a little spring in the floor,seems less tiring.I would not worry about quartersawing your not building a bowling alley.Oak is half way between wood and steel. Frank C.
I made my floor boards with 3/4 inch spacing so the sand mud bark and saw dust can fall through.
Alan
Quote from: steamsawyer on September 10, 2012, 11:41:01 PM
Quote from: bandmiller2 on September 10, 2012, 09:07:17 PM
Lee,i would leave gaps between the oak decking for sawdust /snow/rain or whatever to run through.I like a little spring in the floor,seems less tiring.I would not worry about quartersawing your not building a bowling alley.Oak is half way between wood and steel. Frank C.
I made my floor boards with 3/4 inch spacing so the sand mud bark and saw dust can fall through.
Alan
I can attest to that....I walked on them. 8)
Happy Birthday Alan! You old coot!
Gday
And Happy Birthday Alan hope you had a goodone Mate ;) ;D ;D 8) 8) 8)
Lee You are doing a Top Job and should be Proud Mate ;) ;D ;D 8) the boys have covered the Sawywers stand most of the ones I have done have been full timber heavy timber beam base with the deck screwed to it with the Meadows which should be starting before the end of the year Ill be using 8x6" one way and 10x6" lengthsways with the track with the deck screwed to that Im also using cypress squares under the husk and track ways it worked for My Pappa & Dads Auto Meadows for 20 odd years and they just used pine ;) :D ;D ;D 8) 8)
Regards Chris
First... A huge thanks to David for offering up his mill to help complete mine!!!
Second... Thanks to all who have helped me along the way with very crucial advise. When I first considered this journey, I had no idea just how much time and effort would need to be invested. Believe me guys, I am fully aware now. I am also aware that I could not have made it this far without the support, information and inspiration I have found here :).
Ok, so tomorrow I'm heading to the steel supplier to pick up enough material to build a set of log standards for my trailer and the sawyer's platform. As usual, Dad is coming over to do all the hard work while I supervise. Hey, a young man such as him needs guidance :D :D.
-lee
All your work Lee and you could not have asked for better weather this week in the Carolinas. smiley_thumbsup
I'll agree on the weather David!
-lee
This morning started with a bit of a disappointment. My steel supplier didn't have the material I needed to build the sawyer's platform. I had to settle for enough material to fabricate the standards for my trailer. So... I loaded what they had and headed home.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03573.JPG)
While my Dad was cutting the channel and angle to length:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03587.JPG)
I got busy on the cable pulleys. I had to cut about .150" from each side to make them fit the new bearings.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03588.JPG)
After the pulleys were cut to the proper length, I finished the bronze liners.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03592.JPG)
As I was machining the liners, this little guy came along
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03593.JPG)
So, I picked him up and set him free at the edge of the woods. Now, back to work. Dad cut all the channel and angle needed to fabricate the log standards. I clamped and welded them together.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03598.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03603.JPG)
Here are the standards in place:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03608.JPG)
I'll finish things up tomorrow.
-lee
Looks like your old dad is handier then pockets in your shorts!
Work is the usual awesome standard :)
I wonder if there will soon be a speed trap set up near the mill, and if you don't wanna pay the ticket, you could always off bear at the mill.
"welcome to sawmill county"
He he
This is so exciting to see come together
Some of those last pictures looked like that guy came back from the woods for another visit. :D
But I suppose that was your welder wire on the floor..... ;D
Jim Rogers
I'm curious, why channel and not tubing? I know tubing can be a pain because you have to weld two shim pieces on either side, but I prefer it. Not the price though ($5.65 foot).
Yeah, tubing would have worked also. The stake pockets were 1 5/8" x 3 1/2" so I would have had to weld on shims. My supplier didn't have tubing in 1 1/2" x 3" so I went with channel. At 6 lbs per foot, it's plenty strong enough.
Mr. Rogers,
I just noticed the welding wire on the floor. It does look like my visitor came back for another round :D. The last snake I escorted out of the shop bit me :o. At least this guy wasn't quite so ornery :)
-lee
Quote from: SPD748 on September 15, 2012, 10:41:08 AM
The last snake I escorted out of the shop bit me :o.
-lee
Hiss....Hiss.....Emmmm........taste like chicken. :D
Hi, I'm new to the Forum; I have discovered sawmills and spent all week watching Youtube videos, etc. and I think I may be hooked. Now I found this site, and your awesome work, and I have a complex! I could never work to my own standards, so I have had to learn to proceed despite imperfection.
Can't wait for the next installment! Great work so far!
Good evening guys. Today, my Dad and I did a little logging. A friend took down some pines on his property and offered the logs to us. I promptly hitched up the trailer and moved them to my place. Here's what I came up with.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03623.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03624.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03626.JPG)
There were two loads. This is the first, the other was about the same in size. Each load was a little over 8k lbs. (there is a scale between his house and mine). They're not the best logs but they were free. They came from a wooded area on the property so hopefully there's no metal inside. As soon as I get the mill up and running, we'll see :).
-lee
:D And it has begun.....the logs are coming in. smiley_thumbsup
Great pics....as usual. :)
David,
These small loads taught me a valuable lesson. That is, I'd rather leave the logging to the professionals :D.
-lee
Quote from: SPD748 on September 23, 2012, 07:16:40 PM
David,
These small loads taught me a valuable lesson. That is, I'd rather leave the logging to the professionals :D.
-lee
Logging can be fun...... hurt_smiley smiley_carpenter_hit_thumb smiley_swinging_board smiley_crying smiley_furious3 smiley_sleeping smiley_sleeping smiley_sleeping
So they say. :)
And the crowd chants
Sawdust Sawdust Sawdust! :)
No pressure tho ... He he
Gday
Lookin good Lee smiley_thumbsup smiley_thumbsup Not bad looking logs for the first run once you get use to your mill you will chew through a load like that in about an hour Mate ;) ;D ;D ;D
Regards Chris
Quote from: morgoon on September 23, 2012, 11:19:25 PM
And the crowd chants
Sawdust Sawdust Sawdust! :)
No pressure tho ... He he
I think there are alot of us Eagerly Anticipating Seeing the Big Banger Fire Up ;) ;D ;D ;D 8) 8)
bump..i cant wait to see more
we're anxiously awaiting a status report
Sorry for the loooong delay guys. My day job schedule has been a bit busy lately. I finally had a couple of days to work on the mill. My Dad hasn't been feeling very well lately so I worked on a few things alone. I started by building and painting the sawyers platform.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03706.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03704.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03709.JPG)
After the platform and steps were painted, I finished up the brackets which will secure the cable pulleys to the mill frame.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03698.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03702.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03717.JPG)
Then painted the cable pulleys.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03701.JPG)
... and for my next trick, I'm going to turn this chunk of aluminum into a fan spacer.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03710.JPG)
My engine frame is longer than the original so the radiator mounts farther from the fan. As such, I'll need a longer spacer to take up the extra space. The factory Detroit fan spacers are about 1 1/4" thick and designed to be stacked to attain the proper thickness. I'm sure the stacked spacers would work however I had this piece of aluminum from another project so I decided to use it and make a one piece spacer. That will have to wait. I just looked outside and it would seem the grass needs trimming :(
-lee
your welds are terrible..again :)
I think you could give it all up and be a fabricator...
awesome work!!!!!
Lee, your work looks great!
I know you've been busy......I watch the news. :)
David
David,
I try to avoid watching the news at all costs. It only serves to remind me of human depravity. Hopefully things will calm down a little around here.
I was thinking about the mill today before going to work. It dawned on me that I haven't ironed out a plan for a log deck. I want to build a hydraulic deck with mill chain to advance the logs however I think that will have to wait. I have two pieces of W6 x 15 beam that are 10' long. I could use these beams to construct a log deck. Do you guy think a 10' long deck will be long enough or do I need to build one longer?
-lee
I've found 20' is a good length for us. And I had enough chain to build it. Also 3 runs work better than 2 for me.
with chains on the log deck a long one is good , if no chains short is better as you have big and small ends and straightening them out on the deck is a pain sometimes . I have no chains so a short deck for me. just my opinion .
Quote from: SPD748 on October 13, 2012, 05:53:59 PM
David,
I try to avoid watching the news at all costs. It only serves to remind me of human depravity. Hopefully things will calm down a little around here.
I was thinking about the mill today before going to work. It dawned on me that I haven't ironed out a plan for a log deck. I want to build a hydraulic deck with mill chain to advance the logs however I think that will have to wait. I have two pieces of W6 x 15 beam that are 10' long. I could use these beams to construct a log deck. Do you guy think a 10' long deck will be long enough or do I need to build one longer?
-lee
Lee, I have an idea for your log deck, I call it a skidway BTW.
If you take some square stock, lets say 1x1 and weld it to your log deck beams and then see if you can get some roller chain that fits over the square stock. You then can get a Hyd motor and put a sprocket on it that fits the roller chain, you then would have your self an automatic log feeder system to the carridge. It hard for me to explain but you can always PM me for more info iffin you dont follow me..
Quote from: dblair on October 14, 2012, 08:14:31 AM
with chains on the log deck a long one is good , if no chains short is better as you have big and small ends and straightening them out on the deck is a pain sometimes . I have no chains so a short deck for me. just my opinion .
That's kind of what I was thinking. The longer the deck, the more work involved in rolling logs forward by hand. I have a 20' deck designed in CAD with WR78 mill chain as the moving component however I can't find any used chain. I've checked everywhere I can think of and added a post in the 'wanted' section. New chain would cost in excess of $1000 :o.
Lyle,
I would think it would take at least #120 roller chain if not bigger to survive the conditions of a log deck. I understand your design, that is to use square stock the width of the rollers to guide the chain. #120 would ride on 1" stock. To make a 20' deck, it would require around 90' of chain at ~$13/ft or ~$1200. The mill chain would cost about the same new and is many times more resistant to wear. In my design, the mill chain rides flat on top of a UHMW wear strip and inside of a channel created by 1/4" x 2" plates on both sides of the UHMW.
Long story short: if I can find used chain at a decent price, I could build a deck for less than the price of a used deck. If I can't find used chain, I would be better off buying a used deck.
My thought process was and is to install a manual deck for now. If I can make a little money with the mill, then I can either build or buy a hydraulic deck (along with other hydraulic features such as a turner and off bearing conveyor).
-lee
Could barn guttar cleaner chain be used.?? Frank C.
Hi lee.
I was just wondering if you are planning to put a building over the mill??
Frank,
I just looked at the barn cleaner chain profile. The kind I found had a hook on one end (is this the same you're talking about). I don't think this profile would work because the weight of a log against the hook would upset the travel path of the chain itself. I think I need more of a 'flat top' chain.
Lyle,
I am going to cover the mill. At the moment, I'm torn between a 'pole' style building with a metal truss roof:
http://www.armourmetals.com/pole-barns.html ...or a conventional wood truss roof such as your's. Either way, I'm going with a 12' eave and a metal roof. smiley_smash
On a side note, I checked into having a steel clear span building erected. Everything looked good until... WHOA... How much!? :D I got several quotes on 30' x 80' 'roof only' buildings. The average was ~$15k. I think I can do a pole building either wood or metal truss for around half that. Oh, and permits... My codes department says I would need a permit (and all the inspections that come alone with it) for a steel building. If I build a 'pole barn' (as they put it) that is for agricultural use only (i.e. covering a sawmill) and there is no electrical or plumbing, no permit is required. Before I get started, I'm going to check with them one more time to insure nothing has changed with the permit requirements.
-lee
I had a class today so I didn't get a chance to work on the mill. I drove home from class suffering from withdrawals. I arrived at the front door to quite a surprise!!! It seems the UPS man made a little delivery! The main drive belt has officially arrived:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03743.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03746.JPG)
That's a 195" 'C' section banded belt, 5 grooves wide. Looking at the part number on the belt, it looks like it started out as a 10 groove belt that was cut down.
I also received the rod ends and tubing to make the new connecting link for the feedworks control.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03740.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03742.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03738%7E0.JPG)
I know, I know... it's probably overkill however it just looks cool, right? I'll weld the threaded tube adapters to the DOM tomorrow.
For those that may not know, this connecting link will replace the factory piece seen here
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03721.JPG)
I'm also going to install bronze bushings in all the pivot points of the feedworks. More on that later!
-lee
This thread is starting to get interesting now. :)
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on October 18, 2012, 07:24:04 PM
This thread is starting to get interesting now. :)
That it is Dave ;) ;D Lee your going to have one tight mill when you are done I so use to being givin a machine thats already seen its best days by an owner who could care less and told Im paying you to saw but it always leaves you chasing n fixin/patchin the lill stuff :) :) ::) ::) :-\ thats why I prefer running my own mill over running other peoples problems ;)
Regards Chris
OK LEE, I just got one real important question fur ya, why the heck didnt paint the husk?????lol
Lyle,
That question is something near and dear to my heart. As previously stated, I purchased this mill from the son of a very good friend of my Dad's. The original owner's name was John Oliver or J.O. as he was known to his friends. Sadly, he passed in July of last year. One day while looking at the mill my Dad said, "That green color... that was J.O.'s color. Why don't you leave something on the mill his color?" After hearing that, I remembered that any friend of my Dad's is a friend of mine. The husk and carriage will remain as they were.
-lee
Quote from: SPD748 on October 18, 2012, 08:06:42 PM
Lyle,
That question is something near and dear to my heart. As previously stated, I purchased this mill from the son of a very good friend of my Dad's. The original owner's name was John Oliver or J.O. as he was known to his friends. Sadly, he passed in July of last year. One day while looking at the mill my Dad said, "That green color... that was J.O.'s color. Why don't you leave something on the mill his color?" After hearing that, I remembered that any friend of my Dad's is a friend of mine. The husk and carriage will remain as they were.
-lee
Your a good man Lee, I would do the same
Nice Tribute smiley_beertoast
When I'm gone Lee......put me a little ORANGE spot on your mill. ;D
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on October 18, 2012, 08:18:33 PM
When I'm gone Lee......put me a little ORANGE spot on your mill. ;D
That can certainly be arranged my friend! In fact, stay tuned... I have a little something in mind...
-lee
Quote from: SPD748 on October 18, 2012, 08:22:40 PM
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on October 18, 2012, 08:18:33 PM
When I'm gone Lee......put me a little ORANGE spot on your mill. ;D
That can certainly be arranged my friend!
-lee
WHAT??? Getting rid of me or the Orange spot? :D
That kind of sounded sinister huh? Sorry :D I meant to say, stay tuned for something orange...
-lee
a good tribute to j.o.gettys a master sawmiller and a good honest man!
On having the log deck with a chain feed. I had a thought that with the chain price so high there must be another way. I see trailers with live floors self unload by having parts of the floor move. The same concept could be used for a live deck. Have fixed rails the logs rest on normally and next to the fixed rail have a sliding one that can be raised a couple of inches above the fixed rails and slide forward two feet or so. By lifting and sliding the logs forward you would have the same function but with hyd. cyls. The cost might be less and you would not need chains.
Having a chain feed is an interesting concept, but unless you're going into the 'business', it hardly seems worth the cost/effort to me. My deck (skids) are a couple of I-beams; both are hinged, which is a must when sawing by your lonesome, which is all I do since I quit farming and no longer have employees. When I first got the mill, I used some 4x10 timbers to accomplish the same thing.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13111/sawmill_009.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13111/sawmill_007.jpg)
Help me out a little... What purpose does the hinged sections serve? Does it allow the sawyer to walk the length of the log/carriage for dogging or something else? Thanks!
-lee
Yes they do. ;)
Saves climbing over them all the time.
I see. Follow up question; how close to the carriage should the ends of the beams be when they're folded down?
-lee
any progress on the mill or pics? keep up the good work
Unless your logs are STRAIGHT or unless you don't mind having a BIG slab on one end, one end of the log is gonna have to be 'pinched' out a little to line up the first 2 cuts (initial, plus the next after it's been turned 90°). I've always tried to load the logs so the butt/swell went thru the blade first, 'cause it was more apt to stay on the outfeed rollers. I'm constantly walking back and forth and the hinges allow it; a small log may can be turned from 'my' end, but for a larger one, I have to get to the middle of it. You realize that this is a Belsaw mill and that I'm not a real sawyer; just a (now-retired) dirt farmer/cattleman. Don't know how close the 'skids' are to the carriage 'thout going to look and the mill is about a mile down the road.......probably about 2 inches or a little less. I always flip the hinged parts up before sawing, cause if I don't, there'll occasionally be something on the log (knot, swell, etc) that'll catch/hang. This is a red oak cant from a couple of years ago when I happened to have a camera with me.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13111/red%20oak%20cant.jpg)
Thanks for the information guys! This totally changes the way I'm going to build the deck. I'm definitely going to install a 'dead' deck for now. In all probability, this deck will be all I need. A live deck is one of those 'I'd like to have...' ideas. It may or may not materialize. I just drew up a dead log deck with movable arms in CAD and everything looks great! I'll use 6" channel set on pillow block bearings for the movable arms. The sawyers platform I built last week is 54" wide. I think I can build an extension for the existing platform which would allow me to walk the entire length of the the carriage for dogging/turning purposes. Again, the beams I have are ~10' long. If this turns out to be on the short side, I can add extensions as needed.
I really love the knowledge of my fellow forum members! smiley_clapping
-lee
Lee, i've been thinking bout your chain case.
IIRC, my usual sawyer has a live deck somewhere made out of normal welded chain, like the one you see on chain hoists, and planks atached to it via some U shaped threaded rods, something like a cable tie U shaped piece. You could even leave the ends sticking out. Dismantle few cheap chinese chain hoists and you have the chain and "pinion"
Santa We have alot of decks and light greenchains like that here in OZ the channel the chain rides in is a piece of 2.5 inch wide usually with a piece of hardwood with a key cut into it so every second link is vertical that sits inside it ;) when you getinto that heavy section chain in hi tensile strength it gets dear too :o :)
I have built alot of dead decks with large timbers 6x8 8x8s and they work well Just cut them pine logs up for a start they will last a year or tow easy Lee also you would be able to get away with having them run strait to the carriage as the top will be at about or below knee hight on your end just throw a timber into support it and throw a full deck in it and walk wherever it also keeps bark and rubbish from building up just sweep it strait into the bucket Mate ;) ;D 8)
Regards Chris
Not too bad of an idea to weld some ¼" flat stock on edge to the 6" I beams. I have no idea how high, 2 inches? This will keep the knots from hanging up so easy and any uneven spots too.
I was thinking the very same thing only 1" x 1/4" angle turned 'rooftop' to minimize the contact area between the log and the beam.
-lee
Ok guys, I finally had a day to work on the mill. Dad called and said he was on his way over so I installed the main drive belt for his inspection. He had a look at it and stated, "It looks a little loose." I can't figure out why :).
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03749.JPG)
After a good laugh, we got busy stringing the cable. We installed the new pulley support brackets and cable pulleys then wrapped the cable.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03757.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03760.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03759.JPG)
After the cable was installed, I started machining some of the pieces that make up the feed works control. The casting that the feed handle is attached to was in need of a little care. The original design didn't have a means of lubricating the pivot point. I flycut the sides then installed a grease fitting.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03754%7E0.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03756%7E0.JPG)
I finished out the day by fabricating the control rod.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03752.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03761.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03762.JPG)
-lee
Quote from: SPD748 on October 20, 2012, 07:47:28 PM
He had a look at it and stated, "It looks a little loose." I can't figure out why :).
-lee
:D :D :D :D Call it like you see'm Pop. :D :D :D :D
I really wish I could re-create the moment on here. He walks up and starts looking around. I said, "Hey Dad... what do you think about the belt?" He took a draw from his cigarette and with all seriousness simply said, "It looks a little loose." We both started laughing! Man-o-man, what a journey this has been. I have learned (among other things) that time with my Dad is priceless!
-lee
Lee, be careful how many wraps of cable you put on the drum. It looks like you've got eight. If you get too many it will walk itself right off as the carriage travels to the extremes. Three is usually plenty and leaves room for travel on the drum.
Greg
Been away from the forum for a few weeks, and checking in on this thread on my phone from time to time.
I must say, I just cant find a better way to have a quiet moment on a Sunday morning, looking out into our forest and being so inspired by the creativity here.
Great pics, Great work as usual
I'm gonna put on some tea and stay a while before I go and cut some firewood :)
Quote from: apm on October 21, 2012, 09:09:52 AM
Lee, be careful how many wraps of cable you put on the drum. It looks like you've got eight. If you get too many it will walk itself right off as the carriage travels to the extremes. Three is usually plenty and leaves room for travel on the drum.
Greg
Greg,
I replaced the cable as it was on the mill when it was set up and running before. I see what you mean about the cable walking off the drum. I pushed the carriage from one end of the frame to the other. Everything looks good! With the carriage positioned to the far right (log loading area), there are 2 'rounds' left on the drum. With the carriage positioned far left, the cable rides about in the middle of the drum.
-lee
Today, I concentrated on rebuilding the castings that hold the feedworks to the husk. The pins were badly worn and needed a little help. I started by cleaning up a few surfaces on the castings so I could clamp them safely on the Bridgeport.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03763.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03768.JPG)
Then I bored the holes to accept new bronze bushings.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03771.JPG)
After the bushings were pressed into place, I cut them to length.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03775.JPG)
Finally, I installed grease fittings.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03778.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03780.JPG)
Here they are back on the husk. I'll sandblast and paint them later.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03790.JPG)
To end the day, I started on the new fan spacer.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03782.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03784.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03786.JPG)
This is about as far as I got today. The grass calls... yet again :(.
-lee
Ive got to say you do some good clean machine work. Time with your dad "priceless" Thats the reason my dad and I bought our mill to spend some QT.
Keep it up.good job and a great post.
Lee,I must say your going about this mill thing 100%,but to be a true handset mill you must have something lashed togather with baleing wire,your mill is simply too goody goody. Frank C.
Frank,
My Dad keeps saying, "You're building a sawmill, not a Swiss watch." I think he gets a little aggravated sometimes because I 'fix things that don't need fixing' - in his words. As a machinist and toolmaker, I just can't stand to see a mechanical device with play and slop in the mechanisms that make up the machine. I agree with my Dad many times, that is I fix or re-engineer things that would have worked the way they were. In the end we understand each other and move on with the project.
It's coming together gentlemen!
-lee
Quote from: SPD748 on October 23, 2012, 09:52:38 AM
I think he gets a little aggravated sometimes because I 'fix things that don't need fixing' - in his words. As a machinist and toolmaker, I just can't stand to see a mechanical device with play and slop in the mechanisms that make up the machine. I agree with my Dad many times, that is I fix or re-engineer things that would have worked the way they were.
Oh how I know this!!!! It's the story of my life! I can't stand to have to keep fixing something that could be fixed once the right way!!
John
Quote from: hardtailjohn on October 23, 2012, 02:01:38 PM
Quote from: SPD748 on October 23, 2012, 09:52:38 AM
I think he gets a little aggravated sometimes because I 'fix things that don't need fixing' - in his words. As a machinist and toolmaker, I just can't stand to see a mechanical device with play and slop in the mechanisms that make up the machine. I agree with my Dad many times, that is I fix or re-engineer things that would have worked the way they were.
Oh how I know this!!!! It's the story of my life! I can't stand to have to keep fixing something that could be fixed once the right way!!
John
So true!
Lee, don't overdo things either. Sometimes wanting to do too well and it plainly doesn't work. Some things need slop.
I only had a few hours to work on the mill today. I decided to finish up the fan spacer.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03791.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03793.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03796.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03799.JPG)
After a little test fit... things look good.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03800.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03806.JPG)
-lee
Gday
I do like your style and the way you do things its better to make sure everythings tight and ready to go I have operated afew mills that where falling apart on a daily basis and instead of fixing them properly the boss just kept doing patch jobs its sad when it would have only taken afew weekends worth of work and small parts to have the mills running A1 with no down time verses the 1 and upto to 4 hrs a day i was spending on them and not sawing sometimes and an owner who would come out acting like it was my bloody fault his mill was down might have been the reason i have quit that mill so many times over the years ;)
Regards Chris
Great work, nice pics.
Appreciate you keeping us up on the detail stuff, and the progress.
Gonna say this again, you do some awsome work
PS.. a fella asked me if he could store his lathe in my shop, I told him I wouldnt have a problem with that..lol
Today I started prepping the engine frame for final welding and paint. After it's painted, I'll set it on the concrete pad and begin the installation process of the engine and PTO. With any luck, all this will happen by next weekend.
I had an offer from a gentleman today to take some trees from his property. I went out and had a look at what he has. It looked like there were a good number of hardwoods of varying species in decent sizes. We have tentatively planned to start the job next weekend. I really don't want to become a 'logger' however free logs are hard to turn down, even if they all turn out to be firewood :D
-lee
Logger 101 is about to begin. :)
if getting the trees was all there was to it I'd do it but most of the time they want you to clean up the mess and carry insurance should anything go wrong . I'll go get the trees after they are taken down , nothing else and if they are yard trees I don't want the first 8 foot . if that's the deal call me otherwise no thanks .
Quote from: dblair on October 26, 2012, 08:13:57 AM
if getting the trees was all there was to it I'd do it but most of the time they want you to clean up the mess and carry insurance should anything go wrong . I'll go get the trees after they are taken down , nothing else and if they are yard trees I don't want the first 8 foot . if that's the deal call me otherwise no thanks .
These trees are along a freshly cut driveway which is a little over 1/2 mile long. The drive itself has some gravel. The property owner isn't concerned with felling the trees across the gravel. He plans on grading the driveway again once the trees are removed. In his words, "I was going to push them all down and burn them if you didn't want to take them." I think his plans are to widen the driveway and setup drainage ditches on either side. I'll keep you guys posted.
-lee
Since I'm in manufacturing, I've always had a machine shop at my disposal, but it seem that whenever I need a machine, it isn't available. Watching this thread has really made me long, once again, to have a bridgeport and a lathe and a welder! There's just so many things you can do with them it becomes overwhelming not to be able to do them! You have done a fine job with all the machining! I know you are glad that you have the machinery available to rebuild this mill! Keep on truckin'!
your going to enjoy that new mill (as you have completely remade it ) . it's certainly been a pleasure watching you and this project . hopefully there are more pictures to come . how many and how big are the trees ? we want some pictures .
Quote from: dblair on October 27, 2012, 09:04:27 AM
your going to enjoy that new mill (as you have completely remade it ) . it's certainly been a pleasure watching you and this project . hopefully there are more pictures to come . how many and how big are the trees ? we want some pictures .
My Dad and I have certainly enjoyed this project. Oh, don't worry, there will be plenty more pictures as we wrap things up. About the trees, I'll have more information to post next weekend and I plan on taking pictures of the job as it progresses. I was debating on whether or not to post them here. I think that I will as it will be a part of the journey as well. Thanks for all the kind words and compliments guys! One of my goals was to document exactly what it takes to make one of these old mills anew again. Hopefully someone out there who is considering the same task can read here and make an educated decision before pulling the trigger.
As always, stay tuned!
-lee
love the project and the pics, keep them coming..hope to see it up and running soon and cutting wood
Quote from: SPD748 on October 27, 2012, 09:57:20 AMOne of my goals was to document exactly what it takes to make one of these old mills anew again. Hopefully someone out there who is considering the same task can read here and make an educated decision before pulling the trigger.
In my short time here, I have never seen anybody set the bar so high with a rebuild. Your work is amazing and this thread will serve as a great resource for those of us who have decided to bring our old iron back to life. Thanks for taking the time to document each step. Furthermore, I'm always impressed with the way you respond to each guy. You are a class act and I wish you the best as you proceed. As to the time spent with your Dad, you are not just building a mill, but a permanent monument to the memory of working with your Dad. As you already know, that it priceless.
Best regards!
hey Lee, not sure if you decided what to use for your sawdust removal system yet but the ol sawdust chain sure gives my mill some character. I had a few good comments about that from people who had come to visit. Thats another reason Im hoping to put that ol TD18 on the mill. Dad had the old 1936 RD6 running his mill for a thousand years and people still bring that up when they talk about old times.. Just thught I could give you some food for thought, thats all.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/27453/wed_003.jpg)
I like this old screw under my blade it takes the dust and bark away without stirring it in the air ( like blowers)
Thanks for the kind words Dave. I really hope my thread helps someone someday. As for my Dad, he says that he's never enjoyed a project like he has this one. I suppose I set the bar so high in honor of him. I can remember him telling me as a small boy, "If you're going to do something, do it right." I don't know how 'right' this mill is going to be but I do know that I have tried.
-lee
Yesterday, we finished welding the engine frame. Dad came over pretty early and we got started. Here he is inspecting as usual.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03816.JPG)
I had to weld in the tabs that will secure the top links. These links will keep the frame in place once it's on the concrete pad.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03819.JPG)
I cut plates from 1/4" flat stock to cap the open ends of the tubing. A few were already tacked in place. I attached the rest and finished welding.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03822.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03823.JPG)
Finally, I finished welding the rear motor mounts to the frame. Next up is a good sandblast then paint. Here are a few pictures of the results of the day's work. Enjoy!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03829.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03830.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03833.JPG)
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(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03837.JPG)
*edit - after looking at the pictures I saw a few places that I missed :D Looks like I'll be welding just a little more before moving on :)
-lee
I can tell there is no moss growing under your feet. Keep it going Lee.....it coming together.
Good pic of Pop.
David
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30162/circleblade4.jpg) Lee. You certianly have your work cut out for you. I have an old circle blade dont know if it would be of any use to you but if so You're welcome to it. I see you're in NC. Im in Virginia just outside down town Norfolk. Let me try and post a couple pictures of it.
Its a 40 inch blade with inch and a half arbor hole.
Solomon
Looks like a buzz saw blade or one for crosscutting.
But not a blade that would work so well in a circular sawmill as a head saw.
They have inserted teeth.
But still a good blade for cutting off cants to length, or bucking up slabs and edgings to firewood lengths.
Lee, top-notch work, as usual. I've been quietly watching your progress when time allows. I think it's great that your dad is right there with you. I can just imagine the advise and ideas he is offering to you in the photos you posted. My bandmill build started out as a father-son project as well until he was hit with cancer. I spend a lot of my free time in aiding his recovery, while the build has taken a back burner. I still do find some time to make some parts on the lathe and Bridgeport. I know it breaks his heart that he can't help as he's always asking me for progress reports and offering his wisdom and ideas. I just tell him it's going slow because I have to take up his slack. He gets a chuckle out of that.
After reading the information here: https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,61315.msg906507.html I started wondering about my design. I have tapped holes in my 1/4" tube engine frame. Some are on top (hydraulic pump bracket, radiator and supports) and won't have any weight 'pulling' on the threads. The ones on the front hold the hydraulic tank which will weigh ~250 lbs when full. All are 3/8"-16. It's too late to back the material and re-tap. I could add material to the front of the frame and drill/tap through. At the recommended 1 1/2 times the thread diameter, I'd need to add 1/2" steel plates to tap through. On the front, this isn't a problem. The radiator support bolts can be drilled through the tubing, then use a longer bolt and nut. The hydraulic pump bracket can be attached the same way, with longer bolts and nuts. On the top, adding material underneath the radiator would change the alignment of the shroud and fan. I'll measure to see if there is more than 1/2" clearance between the fan and radiator shroud today.
-lee
Ok, so there is enough room to add material under the radiator. I'll make a few 1/2" plates and weld them in place over the existing tapped holes. I'm going to plate all the tapped holes to avoid any thread failure.
This weekend was dedicated to the tree job I mentioned in an earlier post. I managed to saw and collect logs totaling around 2000 bf of white and red oak. I also picked up 4 cords of firewood. We got the firewood split and loaded into the shed. There was one huge hickory that was dead. I found out in short order that my saw chain does not like dead hickory >:(. Anyway, it was a great weekend. My children pitched in with the loading, splitting and stacking of the firewood. They even painted the saw logs with anchor seal. There are many more trees on the property that the owner wants removed. Those will have to wait until another day.
-lee
Quote from: dblair on October 29, 2012, 10:00:10 PM
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/27453/wed_003.jpg)
I like this old screw under my blade it takes the dust and bark away without stirring it in the air ( like blowers)
Those old screw augers are one of the most dangerous things you can have around a sawmill outside of the spinning sawblades. Resist the urge to use them and use a paddle conveyor of some sort. I know of too many accidents where hands, feet, arms and legs have been ripped off of mill hands. They may be efficient in moving sawdust, but they inevitably clog and back up with debris, especially under a headrig, and that is when the temptation to" clear it while it runs because it is the easiest way" comes in. I cringe thinking about someone working around those.
Jeff...I saw that pic and thought it seemed vaguely hazardous, but I know less than nothing about running circle mills so I let it go. Nice to know that when something quacks like a duck, looks like a duck etc...it probably is.
Looking good Lee. I have and idea for some adjusters for aligning the track. After seeing your work, I may need to hire you to build them for me if you have the time.
With regards to the auger, I can't say yea or nay. When working at a friends mill, I had a friend that was helping reach under the blade at an idle with a garden rake to get something out and things went ugly early. Luckily the saw was at an idle and I was not at the sawyers position. The garden rake was shattered and three teeth and shanks were thrown out of the saw. The bang had me running around from the front of the engine to see what happened and luckily no one was hurt.
Dave C
Agreed gentlemen. I don't like the thought of losing an arm to an auger. I've narrowed my dust removal plans to either a drag chain or belt conveyor... the former being the cheapest. Either way, it'll be powered by an electric or hydraulic motor so I can clean out without the headsaw running.
-lee
Dave,
I'd be honored to help a fellow member. An idea you say? Perhaps we can learn from each other.
-lee
Lee,
Included is a crude drawing that I have not verified dimensions on but I was thinking if you put several of these down the track, you could make good adjustments to the track alignment and lock down with the track using the adjustment screws and jam nuts. Again, would have to field verify all of the dimensions once the mill is set.
Dave C
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/24618/AdjustmentAssembly.png)
Dave,
PM me. We can talk about the details.
-lee
I think I have a rough idea of the dust chain worked out. I hope the .jpeg drawing is clear enough to see. I was worried about the drag chain being able to contact the saw due to the limited clearance between the blade and the concrete pad. I think I can design in an extra idler 'sprocket' (which look more like a wide pulley than a sprocket) on the output side of the chain where the chain enters the steel channel trough. This will keep the chain down close to the concrete pad and hopefully prevent it from riding up onto any dust or debris that may accumulate underneath the blade. All the sprockets will be adjustable in order to set the height of the chain from the concrete pad and to set the chain's tension. In this drawing the trough is 20' long and set at a 25 deg angle. Based on a 45 deg slump, the pile would accumulate to ~30 yds^3 before it would come in contact with the end of the trough. I think this will be high enough for my needs. What do you guys think?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/Mill_Layout_-_Dust_Chain%7E0.jpg)
To power the chain, I'm almost convinced that a 1 hp electric motor coupled to a 20:1 worm gear box will work nicely. With the drive sprocket that I have (14 teeth) the chain speed would be ~ 164 feet per minute. It will take ~70 feet of chain to complete the circuit if the dimensions in this design remain the same. That's a round trip in about 25 seconds. Does this sound too fast? Too slow?
-lee
You're doing an excellent job and I have no experience at all in saw dust removal but been around plenty of old grain elevators, which is basically what you're designing, other than the chain came back directly under the elevator rather than over the top. I'd say that would be plenty fast if not too fast? The one I have in mind for our mill will move not much faster than a turtles pace to save on wear and tear, I always hated working on those old elevator chains ;).
What is going to be between chain and slab?
Quote from: Woodchuck53 on November 07, 2012, 07:45:22 PM
What is going to be between chain and slab?
I was thinking of adjusting the tension on the chain to leave an air gap of about 1" between the chain and slab. Without experience, I don't know if this will work. I have the attachments to add paddles to the chain. I was looking at a rubber product for the paddles. Do you think this will work or should I change direction?
-lee
I guess the next question is how much space under the edge of the saw? A friend uses a 6" strip of Teflon on his for a rub surface.
The area where the chain will pass under the saw has about 10" of clearance. It's around 7" directly under the saw at it's lowest point. With a 1" air gap and a 2" tall paddle plus the height of the chain itself, that leaves ~ 6" from the top of the chain to the saw. Now that I think about it, that doesn't sound like much...
-lee
I think your idea of another idler on the chain to keep it uniform under there is worth trying. I hate to think of the cussing going on other wise. Your place is really looking good.
I have hopefully 6 more months on my current project then back to the assembly of the mil. l I have built a lot of extra stuff and machined a few parts for the conveyor so now just finding time to bolt things together. Stay safe Lee.
Lee,a miss is as good as a mile.Don't make everything too permanant until you run it.Then you can tweek it to perfection.In fact it would be handy to have the sawdust conveyer a removeable unit,slide it out to clean up or work on.The sawdust will form its own trough and deliver the new dust to the paddles. Frank C.
Frank,
I was planning on running the mill to see exactly where and how the dust accumulates before starting construction on the removal system. What I have now is a rough idea/drawing. I'm just trying to iron out as many details as possible ahead of time.
-lee
Lee,I've not found conveyer location to be critical close seems to be good enough.The sawdust seems to be driven down tangent to the cut or a little back twords the arbor.From following your work I hesitate to say "good enough" Frank C.
It's going to be a problem with chunks of knots, bark and other larger pieces of debris, being kicked around by the blade hitting them. Also, might get a larger piece of tapered butt cut fall down there and pinch the blade. That's where you get a case of Butt pucker, watching that blade start to butterfly. It ain't pretty.
You might want to practice for "emergency rapid de-clutching". No time to stop and think about what to do. ::) ::) Just sayin. ;D
Every Circle mill I ever saw, had a pit under the blade for the chain or blower to sit. Makes clearing debris much easier. Most mills are set up high to allow for this.
Otherwise, you are doing a masterful job with the project.
That's not good news. If the clearance is going to be unsafe, my only options are to lift the entire mill with leg extensions or find a smaller blade. :(
-lee
Might be easier to saw grooves in the concrete, maybe 8" deep or so, and chip that out, making a small pit.
I would sit there and make some measurements, with the blade hanging on the mandrel.
It's amazing how much stuff can accumulate under there.
Yes, I had a 52" Blade Corley #2 production mill. Saw many "propped up" mills, in the hills of Arkansas. This mill had a blower with 8" pipe. My first mill had the Dust Doodler. Both were mounted on the same concrete piers, one after the other.
Are you saying that the distance from the bottom of the blade to the concrete pad is too little? It will be just over 7" if things stay the same. You're saying a chunk of material may be pinched between the blade and concrete? If you think it can or could, I can see where that will be a problem. I looked at a few commercial mills that appeared to have a similar clearance though I never actually measured them.
-lee
How much clearance to the dust drags when they go around, under the blade ?
7" is not a lot of room for debris to not get kicked up by the blade, I don't think ?
Won't be long until that whole area is full of dust, except for what gets drug out.
Harold is dead on. You need a pit under that headsaw. 18" minimum clearance to the saw edge I'd say.
Hey Lee,
You are doing a terrific job. Outstanding workmanship.
I thought I would post this again to illustrate what I did. This short video shows how my chain works. The pit under the husk is more than two feet below grade. The clearance under the blade is nearly 1 1/2 feet, and this is not enough. Notice in the video that the sawdust tends to bank up under the saw all the way across. My pit is not deep enough for the buildup to slide down away from the blade and when it builds up the blade picks up the sawdust and throws it into the air. To locate the position of the chain I first ran the mill to see where the most sawdust hit the ground under the blade. That turned out to be only a few inches back from the leading edge of the blade, and like Frank said, placement is not really that critical.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aBCr-yx4hQ&list=UU7d1hrrieYmf1HNx6ypOVpg&index=9&feature=plcp
You do need to put an idler between the chain and the saw to keep the chain from flopping up into the blade when the chain picks up a piece of bark or something. This could be an idler or just a shoe of some sort. I used wheel barrow wheel rims.
I see in your scetch that you have a trough to carry the sawdust up to the pile, a good idea, that way you can park a wagon or something to carry the dust away. Don't forget, you will need a trough for the chains return over the blade. The problem with chain is it does ocasionally come apart and you don't want it to fall on your blade.
Here are a couple of early pictures before the chain was installed...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28317/sawmill_first_log_012.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28317/hospital_013.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28317/sawmill_040.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28317/vieo_cam_019.jpg)
Keep up the good work...
Alan
Man-o-man... Don't get me wrong guys, I needed to hear this before something bad happened. It looks like I'm back to the drawing board...
-super bummed...
-lee
Don't be bummed. Sawmill setups generally always have some issues that you have to climb over or dig under. In your case, It'll be a little work, but not that big of a deal from what I can see by this photo.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03749.JPG)
You have your leg placement to where you can easily saw out a place in the concrete for a pit that a conveyor can run up and out of. Our pits were always big enough to climb down under the saw to do maintenance. I can guarantee, at some point in the life of that saw, you will get a chunk of debris wedged so bad, you'll need or at least want to get under the saw.
I kept waiting for one or more of the lifetime Circle sawyers to say something. I don't see a major problem with opening up under the saw. Just should have butted in sooner.
Better now than later, eh ??? ;) ;D
One O dem chainsaw engined concrete saws will do a quick job under there, while the area is still clean enough to see.
In 1984 we ordered a new CMC sawmill to replace the Morbark we were running that was about worn out. When it got here, and we finally had the old mill out and the new mill in, we realized that the new mill's husk was not over top of our barn cleaner, but was next to it. What we did to get over that, was build a sheet metal slide for the dust to shoot down and over to the old conveyor . (We used barn cleaners built into concrete troughs in the floor so we could just sweep sawdust into them to clean up around the rest of the mill).
I'd been watching the progress of the topic, but it never occurred to me to say anything until Harold did. Being able to keep sawdust out and clean around the mill, on a permanently positioned mill is a big deal. A circle saw headrig will put out the wood, but it puts out the sawdust as well.
i use a dust chain on my frick. in your situation i would'nt cut the concrete i would build an enclosure under the saw to catch the dust and direct it to the chain. i use a roller to hold my chain down under the flat track rail if a knot or piece of wood gets in the chain it either pushes it on out through the sawdust that has already built up or if it jams it slips the flat belt that drives it from the mandrel. i probably have 10 to 12 inches between my saw and chain. a blower driven by another power source is nice because you can put a y fitting and use a flexible hose to clean up. if i had a slab i probably would clean up with a leaf blower. just a few ideas to toss around.
Lee,don't let a minor bobble upset your project.My current mill has probibly 1 1/2' under the saw never had problems but I'am not a high production mill.Are you planning to put a deck over the arbor between the saw and the pulley.?If so its good form to make the piece next to the saw hinged so it can be flipped up quickly if bark or chip gets wedged beside the saw plate.Saws are very sensitive to something rubbing and heating the plate. Frank C.
I am with Jeff I have 12 in to belt from saw and it ain't enough most oftime
raise it 18 inches, you wont regret it
First off, let me thank you all for correcting my mistake. All along I thought there would be plenty of clearance under the blade. As it turns out, there certainly isn't.
I spent most of this morning re-drawing my setup. I've run some numbers on both raising the entire mill and cutting out a pit. After figuring in cost and effort, the pit wins. That being said, I have a few questions, such as; How wide does the pit need to be? In the drawing below, I have both the existing setup (no cutout) and the proposed new setup. I've included a few dimensions for reference. The image is drawn as would be viewed from the back side of the mill. The cutout here is drawn 48" wide. Does it need to be that wide or could I make it narrower and install a sheet metal dust shoot as Jeff described? I'm trying to minimize the amount of concrete that I have to remove in order to maintain the slab's integrity.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/Mill_Layout_-_Cut_out.jpg)
My next questions is; How far back (from the edge of the slab toward the mandrel pulley) does the pit need to extend? This drawing is as would be viewed from above the mill, looking down.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/Mill_Layout_-_Dimentions_-_cutout.jpg)
For reference, the slab is 20' wide. I've drawn the cutout to half the width of the slab or just beyond the forward edge of the mandrel pulley. If it needs to be this far back, will that weaken the slab? Questions, questions... questions :)
-lee
Soneone will have better advise but my thought is newer will be too big.Long as your removal system gets it all out of pit. Getting chain down into pit seems to be biggest obstictle (can;t spell no more :P) that I can see
Brian
It only needs to go from a little past the inside of the blade, so the sprocket drive for the dust doodler is set back sufficiently to grab all the dust as possible, in each paddle. OR, the conveyor belt. If you go too far into the slab, you will have a buildup of wet sawdust, that will eventually turn moldy and attract ants.
Forgot to ask, are you going overhead with the return on the dust chain ?? That would scare. I just let the chain in and back out under the blade. Never had much trouble. The paddles are standing up as they pass under the blade, so, won't carry much dust the wrong way.
Only reason to go further, is so there is room for the blower. IF you don't think you will ever want a blower, I would cut the slab maybe 12 IN from the inside of the blade, NOT completely under the husk, as you have in that top view.
Width wise, look at the blade as it is slinging water. A first cut, opening the log, will be throwing the (water), Sawdust more flat than down. Kinda hard to 'splain. ;D The side of the pit, farthest from the sawyer, doesn't NEED to be to the edge of the teeth-blade. The closest side to the sawyer, needs to be closer to the sawyer, to keep from throwing the dust at your feet, but, into the pit. A deflector could help there a bunch.
My pit, when I had NO idea what I was doing, I used the spacing for the bunks to set the track on, but, instead of piers, I made 2 block walls, and even slopped a little cement floor in there. I was in rock country, so, always would be digging and loosening rocks. This made things very easy to clean. Once I get the blower set up, I just bolted that to the cement floor.
I don't 'splain stuff too well, so, if no one else doesn't add info. Just holler.
My thought would be to make it as big as you can without interfering with the stability of your mill supports. If you make it bigger than it needs to be, it will simply fill the extra space with sawdust. If you make it too small, then you have to go at it all over again and make it bigger. If you ever have a system like we used, using a barn cleaner with horizontal paddles, Having the conveyor going clear to the back of the husk is pretty handy for cleaning up around the mill.
I can't find the manufacture of what we had. Pretty sure it was Cornell. The link below is very similar. Out drive was simpler. Just a horizontal to vertical gear box driven by a 3 horse electric motor.
http://jameswayfarmeq.com/body/barn-cleaners.aspx
Lee,perhaps you would be better served with a sawdust blower,a sheet metal scoop, blower and pipe out. As far as the trench location drop a plumb line from the bits on the cutting side and have that the center of your trench. Frank C.
Frank,
I think I know the answer to this but I'll ask anyway. Would a blower system work without a pit? That was my original idea, installing a blower with a shroud around the bottom of the saw.
-lee
Mine was driven right off the mandrel by belt. Took a bit of space down there. Might be able to go outside the pit, fed by pipe ? Don't know about the suction at a little distance ?
We use to have a blower system with our gang saw. Even the very little bit of debris that comes off a saw that is sawing clean cants would cause the system to plug and cause downtime. If you have a blower, you better have a cyclone if you don't want that sawdust in everything within a half mile. That's actually why we ended up putting a barn cleaner under our gangsaw. The neighbors to the east of us, a quarter mile away, started complaining to everyone they could about our sawdust. We had the blower piped out the west side of the building, but if you had a west wind, it would catch the dust, elevate it, turn it around, and disperse it with the prevailing wind. If you start putting elbows and turns in the blower piping, you get clogs. Even with a cyclone, you could get a stick in the system stuck in the cyclone, and the sawdust would back up the pipe and backwards through the system and cause very difficult clogs, causing expensive downtime.
I'm sorry for all the questions and indecision guys. I just can't seem to wrap my mind around this issue. I talked to my Dad this evening and he's having a difficult time as well. I suppose I should ask this to clearify. Is the issue of needing a pit one of safety? In other words, is it to allow more room below the blade for bits of material and dust to collect so they can't be struck by the blade? Is the 'butterflying' of the blade caused when a chunk of wood is caught between the blade and husk or when it's caught between the blade and concrete slab? Dad seems to think we can run the mill as is and worst case senario have to manually clean out from underneith the blade/husk area more often than if there was a pit.
-lee
Butterflying is not a term I use, but I know what he means. It is when a saw gets hot and you can almost see both sides of it at once. It can happen fast, and it will happen often without clearance under the saw for debris to fall freely away. A hot saw can turn to butter. Once you see one waving you won't ever forget it. When you heat a saw like that, it can lose some or all of its tension and won't run right until it gets hammered and tuned again. And yes, I truly believe it to be a safety thing as well. When a saw starts wagging, it can actually start hitting other parts of the mill, for instance a headblock in its vicinity. I've seen a saw wave as much as 4" or 5" from center.
I'm not sure you have ever seen the amount of sawdust that a 9/32 saw kerf creates, or you probably wouldn't be considering manually cleaning.
If I had a nice concrete pad I would raise the mill and not make a pit. Pit usually fill with water if they don't have a drain. Raising the mill would make it easier to clean out from under the whole mill. It also lets gravity help with handling lumber. If you run a sawdust drag chain with the upper section running overhead you don't need as much clearance. Chains don't take near the power a blower does and they are much quieter.
Sawdust is like a sponge. It takes water out with it when it is being removed.
Raising the mill is certainly a way to surmount the problem, but it looks to me like it would be quite expensive. You can't just go up without additional support. The longer those legs get, the more it's going to get torqued laterally with the movement of the carriage and the loading, turning, and the sawing of logs.
I considered raising the mill using 12" x 12" timbers undernieth the leg sections. One problem I ran into with that design was the fact that the roll frame for off bearing lumber would be raised as well. It's already at 38" in height and another 12" would put it way too high to comfortably off bear without having to build a platform for the off bearer to stand/walk on.
I think I understand now Jeff. Thanks. I definately want to eliminate as many safety issues as possible. I'm going to shoot the grade behind the mill pad tomorrow and see exactly how deep I will be able to dig. I'll dig the bottom of the pit on a slight angle to allow water to drain. I like the idea of pouring concrete in the bottom of the pit to make cleanout easier. I have to figure out how to contain/restrain the dirt on the side walls of the pit which will be exposed undernieth the existing pad to keep if from falling into the pit and weakening the structure above.
-lee
I'd form it and pour walls as well as the floor, or you could lay blocks.
I've put in 2 mills that used a dust drag system using this type of chain. One had a pit, the other one didn't. The one with the pit used the system like you have. The pit was dug mainly to get down to a rock bottom and to get below frost line. Water was a problem. Sawdust may be a sponge, but you don't have enough of a sponge to soak up what goes into a pit. I had one Monday morning where we had to chip the ice out from the water that accumulated over the week end. If it doesn't freeze, then you will just pull that water out as it runs. I never had problems with chunks.
I put a chain that ran lengthwise with the mill on another occasion. I didn't have room for a pit. It ran on just 2 sprockets, and I just built a wooden frame that was an H. If I recall it was built using 1x6s for the sides. I had it open under the saw, where there might have been a chance for the chains to clash together, but that never happened. My dust moved on the bottom chain. The return came back on the top of the H. Since I was on a shale pit, that got to make more of a groove underneath. There was no pit. I used plastic paddles, just in case one would jump up to the saw. At the end, I put another chain that ran up to a pole. It worked like a charm, and I never had any problems with bark or chunks. As it turned out, the bark would be pulled across the top chain and go out the opposite end. Clearance was inches under the saw.
I've also run blowers with no pit. The Jackson portable mill has a built in sawdust pit with a blower pipe hole on the end, so you're sucking it out lengthwise. Clearance under the saw couldn't have been more than 6 inches. I sawed on that mill for at least 5-6 years. It was a daily producer and I never had a problem with chunks. This mill used a debarker, so there weren't large pieces of loose bark. I've seen blower boxes made of wood and they worked OK.
The mill I sawed on for 15 years was put up in the air for easy maintenance. We use a vibrating conveyor for dust removal. But, we had a box around the saw to direct sawdust down to the conveyor. Close tolerances. There is only a few inches on the front side of clearance at the side and we have a dust deflector under the end so it doesn't blow back.
I have never had a problem with chunks, especially falling under the headsaw. I've had a bigger problem with them in vertical edgers. You should have a table behind your saw. Many mills use a conveyor to take things away from behind the saw. One most handmills, you just build a wooden deck that covers the area behind the saw. I always liked a split deck. That will catch any chunks that may happen to fall. The only time I ever would have chunks was due to sloppy bucking. If I thought there was going to be a problem, I would whack it off before I sawed it.
With the setup you have right now, you can go with either operation. Steamsawyer's mill isn't using much of a pit. If you go with a chain, you will need a board support to come overhead. Its a safety thing just in case the chain breaks and falls on a running saw. You don't need a board support underneath as the chain will make its own trough in the sawdust. If you want to put in an idler sprocket under the track, I would just use a piece of pipe for it to run underneath. That way it could move left or right if it had to.
Gday
I would not get yourself into a fitt about it Mate ;) Im with Ron its fine thats why i did not say anything about it as most saws i have sawn on have had plate steel sides only 2.5 to 4 inches off the sides of the saw with 1/2 of the front part removable to allow saw changes and a piece of plate welded to follow the radius of the largest saw by only 3 or 4 inches for the front bottom quater of the saw then level to the back of the husk or to the splitter from there it usually goes into a blower but i have run afew with belts and drag chains on the same principal I use to put a liner plate along the front 1/4 in certan places as the amount of dust over a year can and will wear a hole
the idea of having them close to the saw is a circ generates a fair bit of its own volicity in a confined area towards the back 1/4 of the husk area which is where most of the blowers,belts & chains i have used have been and i like them that way as if your to far forward you will end up with a build up at the back of the saw area which is a pita
Id just leave it as is if it was my mill mate ! my preferance is for blowers as you can blow it directly into trucks or trailers without having to handle it again they are noisy though thats the down side set up rite a blower will give you no dramas at all that been said. I loved working in the mills with drag chains and belts because they where quieter those where also electric powered so basicly all you heard was the sweet sound of that saw but you did have to handle all the dust ;) ;D ;D 8)
Regards Chris
Ill add you will not hear a bloody blower anyway with that screamin jimmy pullin the mill ;) :D ;D ;D
Lee, theirs no doubt in my mind that a sheet metal scoop slid under your saw and hooked to a blower would handle the dust with your available clearance.Many times blowers get a bad rap because the folks have them cranked up to blow the dust into the next county.As Chris said the saw tends to drive the dust down and back.I've never had problems with chunks as I trim the knubs off logs.Don't get too worried about gloom and doom stories that abound about sawmills,caution and common sence will serve you well.On my mill I used a belt because I didn't want the noise.In fact I used a legnth of fire hose because I'am cheap and I had it.The belt runs under the saw the sawdust forms a chute and is carried out on the bottom belt and dumps as it goes around the outboard drum.Modern commercial mills need well designed removal systems,old handset mill are quite forgiving. Frank C.
the pit should be centered at the leading edge of the blade and as long as it is needed to run the chain straight
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/27453/CCI11102012_00000.JPG)
the pulleys are necessary as the chain may hang and you don't want it to pull into the blade . just my opinion .
now you can see why I went to this
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/27453/CCI11102012_00001.JPG)
comes up and out fast and stays under my shed untill out of ground . covers easy .
I had a chain dust drag with the old m14 that I used and the other bigger mill that I had operated much the way your set up will and neither of them had much of a pit. They also didnt have any paddles on the chain, just the old 1.5'' flat link drag chain. The one had the return over the top and the other ran both directions underneath the saw. They both worked ok. Chunks were more of a problem with the chain that went both directions under the saw, bark was the biggest problem.
I dont think either one of the setups I had used a space much bigger than yours. The extra space would certianly lessen your cleanuptime later.
Keep at it. This is a most impressive build and the quality of your work is A+.
PC
As to water and ice in a pit. You do have to keep that in mind. I sawed on a mill over a pit for 25 years, 6 days a week most of the time and in all those years we had trouble maybe a half dozen times because of ice. THis was a bigger mill of course, and we produced much more sawdust in a day than this mill will. There are a couple things you need to do to make sure you don't have problems on days when you think you are going from a wet weather pattern to a freezing one. Number one is to make sure the sawdust under the saw is removed at the end of the work day. Pure ice is easy to spud loose. Frozen, saturated sawdust on the other hand is like removing particle board. Our barn cleaner sat in the floor about a foot, and our mill was about 40 inches to the rails from the floor. We had about 12 foot of horizontal conveyor in the floor that went to the building wall. From there it was a regular big metal pan that elevated outside. That big metal pan was a funnel when it was raining. If you are using a drag chain, you won't have near the water coming in, in a wet situation as we might have. The other thing we did, if we were going to get a rain and than a freeze during a period that the mill would be closed, we had someone that was responsible to come in at some point before it froze, and shovel sawdust into the conveyor to take out the water that was in it. The times we had trouble, were the times when our simple procedures were not followed.
The only time I had a water problem is when the pit was in dirt. We would get ground water coming up into the pit. Our chain cleaner was run off an old Model T rear and it sat in the pit. When you got ground water and ice, the drive mechanism was in water. The water was about a foot deep.
I haven't seen water problems with concrete. If you're going to dig out the concrete and go down to dirt, that might be a problem.
Hi Lee, I have been sawing with my mill and I have had no problems with the sawdust chain at all. If a chunck of slab falls down there the chan carries it out with no problems. It runs off a hyd motor which I think works well.
I think you are better off raising your mill a little instead of making a hole, you can always build a little platform for the tail end or get a taller helper lol
The way I have my mill set up I dont need anyoneat the tail end to get at the carridge at all, my last board I take off myself and throw it on the conveyor belt which takes it away.
If you like I can take some pics of how the sawdust builds up around the mill, that might give you a better idea of what you have to build. I dont think you will be able to eliminate all the bsawdust problems cause that stuff seems to go everywhere, it even fills my jacket pockets..lol hope my 2 cents might be some help
In my experience, I'm with Ron about covering your husk. Most of the junk that falls into my conveyor comes off the saw from the side. The only material I get directly from the saw is dust and chips. A wide conveyor belt would be great. It serves both to remove chunks of bark and such and also as an off bear transfer to your roll frame.
I would run the system as you have it and see how it behaves. It won't be much harder down the road to cut out the slab if need be.
I should have been more specific before. I do intend on constructing a deck to cover the husk. I really want a powered, over the mandrel offbearing conveyor however it will be much easier to construct a powered conveyor like lyle has, that begins on the back side of the mandrel with a 'dead' deck on the sawyers side of the mandrel. In fact, I have most of the materials required to fabricate a 18" wide offbearing conveyor in the shop. I was waiting to get the engine and frame out of the way before beginning the conveyor. So... with that in mind, I'll add a few drawings of that I've come up with so far. (I have a plan for the pit worked out however I think I'll set things up as is and, as stated, see how it behaves). These drawings do not include the offbearing conveyor. I'm still working on adding that to the design.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/Mill_Layout_-_overhead_-_1.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/Mill_Layout_-_Dust_Chain_-_1.jpg)
In these designs, I have the dust chain set 4" behind the leading edge of the saw. I think everyone agrees that actual placement isn't all that critical. At the 4" offset, there is ~ 17" of clearance between the chain and saw. I can add a few baffles as needed to help direct dust to the chain.
Lyle, if you can add a few pictures of your mill that would be great!
-lee
Lee,i think your on to something now,but move the dust chain back,behind the saw-they tend to blow dust back..
albert
You could put it on the other side as York suggests, and just put a deflector under the saw. We have one under the saw right now and it pushes the dust ahead. If you need to break up the cyclone that develops, you just put in baffles, and that should kill it. That's what we did on our vertical edger to prevent it from throwing so much dust to the outside.
Unless my mill is just strange or what Sawdust will end up just abouve your 7 in 7 7/8 I get lots more sawdust at about 4:00 from my experiance
Lee, tis is just an idea but whats stopping you from running 2 chains? You can pick up old combine chain for next to nothing. You could run another one on the other side of where you have it planned out now. Just looking at how my sawdust builds up I dont think it would hurt one bit. I have my chain set about 6.30
I will try to get some pics to you today
strange how the dust comes out different on different mills but you can see my dust come down on the video I made at Appomattox sawmill on youtube . this is when I used a blower to blow the dust out . there is a small pit under the blade , now the pit is much deeper and the dust doesn't escape the pit , very much , now . without a pit it surely will gather where the 7 7/8 is in your drawing . a friend , on his saw , has it all sheet metaled in and the dust just slides back down to the dust conveyor . his is on a slight hill so there never was going to be a problem with a pit or clearance . I'm sure you will gather enough information and make a great decision for your saw . just reading all the input has been an experience in itself . great post you have going on here . the deep pit does keep the flying dust down but there are problems associated with it .
Good afternoon guys,
I set an old blade that I had on the mandrel and took a few pictures. This blade is 54" whereas the blade I'm going to run is 55 1/4" (tip to tip) so not that much difference. Have a look...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03850.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03851.JPG)
-lee
I dont think you will have a problem Lee
I really hope everything works out. But without a deep enough pit you may end up with something like this.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28317/sawmill_chain_016.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28317/sawmill_chain_015.jpg)
My chain can handle the amount of sawdust the blade generates but the pit is not deep enough to funnel the sawdust to the chain. Once the pile starts to build up, the wind generated by the blade blows the sawdust up in banks and it can't slide down to the chain.
One of the next projects at my mill is to deepen the pit and lower the chain. Also I plan to line the sides of the pit with sheet metal.That's what I did on the last sawmill I set up. The tin makes a slick surface that the dust will slide down on. It makes a big difference.
Alan
i believe i'd go with a blower in your case talladega machinery has several used ones listed
Put the chain on the opposite side of the saw, and a deflector underneath the saw at the sawguides, and you will have a majority of your dust go to the opposite side.
More like this?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/Mill_Layout_-_Dust_Chain_-_1%7E0.jpg)
I'm going to work on the design for the offbearing conveyor this morning. I plan on making the rails from steel channel. Can someone tell me how close to the blade the edge of the channel should be? I'm going to try and design a conveyor that will go over the mandrel. If I can't work that out, I'll install a husk cover on the sawyers side of the mandrel.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/Mill_Layout_-_offbearing_conveyor.jpg)
-lee
Lee, going right over your mandrel with the conveyor is not a good idea
Quote from: lyle niemi on November 13, 2012, 07:40:11 AM
Lee, going right over your mandrel with the conveyor is not a good idea
Yeah, I've been drawing it for a while now and I can see it will be complicated to safely work out. Oh well, behind the mandrel it is.
-lee
Hey
Awesome work as usual
Man there so much to consider in all of this
The deflector schematic looks like it should work.
The biggest problem you will have at the saw is when you put some sort of offbearer on. I've seen a couple of different styles. The most common go all the way back to right in front of the sawguide. Clearance is scant. What will happen is that a piece of bark or wood is going to get stuck there while the saw is running. Your saw will get hot and start to flop around. You will want to have clearance in the area where the teeth come up on the back side. Just cut that part out and you won't catch it with your saw when it happens. Most offbearers are only the length of the husk.
Another option is just to put the offbearer beyond the husk, and put a live roll on the husk. I had a Jackson that used that setup. The area on the husk is then covered with metal, and put on a hinge. On my automatic mills, there was a hydraulic cylinder that would raise the table up whenever there was something stuck there. It worked real well. Since you have a hand mill, you will be standing there. You could simply lift the table whenever things got caught. The area at the husk was slightly higher than the offbearer. The live roll would help assist the offbearer. The conveyor really doesn't do much until the board is cut. Most of your board will be hanging well beyond the husk when it is cut off.
Don't know if this will help but here is my set up
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19561/saw_mill_dust_system_001.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19561/saw_mill_dust_system_004.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19561/saw_mill_dust_system_005.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19561/saw_mill_dust_system_007.JPG)
Note where sawdust has acumulated not straight down more towards where saw blade starts up from bottom
Thanks for the pictures Captain! That's a nice looking setup you've got there. I need all the inspiration I can get right now for the drive to the finish (as if these things are ever really finished :)) As stated here:
Quote from: morgoon on November 13, 2012, 12:15:46 PM
Man there so much to consider in all of this
...there is indeed much to consider in all of this. I really hope someone out there finds as much inspiration and information as I have in this thread and elsewhere on the forum. You guys are the best!
-lee
Lee
Duane who helped us put this together said you will never get finished with a sawmill because there is always something you discover that will make part of it better. Especially if you hang out here and get new ideas from the people here. I know where there is another Belsaw setting that less than a 1000 would get it. Now why would I even think about another one ::) ::) They can easly become an obsession :D :D :D But Wife holding a club can be a deturent ;D ;D ;D
Lee,
Mine had a pit and drag chain much like you're discussing. I'll try to link the pics here, but only have a minute. If they don't show, they're in my gallery.
John
https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=114977#top_display_media
Lee, after this mornings episodes I think Im rethinking things. I had conveyor problems and then I blew a hyd hose, I have oil all over the place. Im thinking for mills like ours, instead of having all this fancy stuff, just hve a belt and pulley mill with a good hired hand. OK Im done venting...lol
Lee, there are many things you could try to remove the dust.Probibly the easiest would be an electric driven blower with say a 6" inlet.Take a legnth of 6" smoke pipe cut it in half legnthwise for say 2' to slide under the saw parallel to carriage travel. The saw will drive the dust down and back into the pipe. Frank C.
Also make sure you have access to your pipe so when you get sticks in there and it jams up.
Ok guys... after days of deliberation, I've decided to set up a drag chain on the existing pad. I'm going with a 1 1/2 hp electric motor on a 40:1 worm drive gear box to drive the chain. With the 14 tooth sprocket that I have, the chain speed will be around 1.4 feet per second. I'm going to add 2" x 4" paddles to the chain at 4' intervals to start. Hopefully, that will be able to keep the dust under control. Wish me luck!
-lee
Have at it Lee,we can give advice but the only way to know is to try it.If possible make you sawdust removal unit self contained so it could be pulled out for cleaning and service. Frank C.
May need to slow it down more Duanes moves much slower than that but maybe it dont matter just seems things might not wear as fast
Quote from: Satamax on October 19, 2012, 08:26:01 PM
Lee, i've been thinking bout your chain case.
IIRC, my usual sawyer has a live deck somewhere made out of normal welded chain, like the one you see on chain hoists, and planks atached to it via some U shaped threaded rods, something like a cable tie U shaped piece. You could even leave the ends sticking out. Dismantle few cheap chinese chain hoists and you have the chain and "pinion"
Lee, to ilustrate what i was saying.
Same thing as this one.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19153/convoyeurchaine.jpg)
Two chains about 4 yards appart, and planks in between.
We've been a little busy the past few days. Here are some pictures of the progress:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03917.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03922.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03931.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03939.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03941.JPG)
After a little paint:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03947.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03949.JPG)
The planks on the sawyer's deck are white oak. There's a little story behind them that will have to wait until tomorrow. Until then...
-lee
Where did the White Oak boards come from..... say_what ?
How did you decide on the height of the platform with respect to the carriage height?
Looks to be uncomfortable bending over that far, but you may have that all figured out already.
I used to like the headblock base to be just below belt height and above my knees.
Ok, ok... I can't wait until tomorrow to tell this story. A few weeks ago, I contacted a gentleman named Darrell Elliott about a Mellott log turner that he listed for sale on the internet. Sadly, I learned that the turner was already sold. I felt a little defeated until I continued speaking to Mr. Elliott. He indicated that he was a full time fireman and operated a sawmill part time. What a coincidence... I was also an emergency services worker full time with dreams of operating a sawmill part time. The conversation continued when I asked if I could visit his mill. He agreed and a date was set. I visited Mr. Elliott's mill last Saturday (11-17-12). It was about a 3 hour drive but let me tell you, it was 3 hours well spent! I only stayed for about 4 hours, but I learned a lifetime of information. Mr. Elliott was quite the host! He offered tons of information... even let me saw with his mill! Mind you, he has quite the setup: live log deck, air dogs and plenty of help to offbear. I was WAY out of my element. I can't begin to tell you guys of the amount of knowledge that I gained. As if all these things weren't enough, Mr. Elliott sawed and offered enough white oak for my sawyer's deck... FOR FREE! I couldn't believe it. I tried to pay him several times however he wouldn't have it. To say the least, it was quite a day. I left with a new found understanding of sawing on a circle mill and a bed full of freshly sawn white oak for my own mill project. Here's to a master sawyer and fellow emergency services worker... Darrell Elliott of Elliott's Sawmill in Sanford, North Carolina!
-lee
Quote from: beenthere on November 20, 2012, 07:02:30 PM
How did you decide on the height of the platform with respect to the carriage height?
Looks to be uncomfortable bending over that far, but you may have that all figured out already.
I used to like the headblock base to be just below belt height and above my knees.
I've been told (and read) that the headblocks on the mill should be at my knee height. That being said, I measured the headblocks on the mill, then my own knees. I came up with about a 22" difference. I set the platform at that height. So far, it seems comfortable. Once everything is setup, I'll re-visit this question and offer an update.
-lee
OK....you're off the hook. :D
lee
QuoteI measured the knees on the mill, then my own knees. I came up with about a 22" difference.
That would be right for me too. Just the pic looked like it was some less than that and made me wonder. You are good to go, I'm sure. (and off the hook ::) ) :)
To be fair to my friend David Poston... whom also offered to saw the lumber that I needed for my sawyers deck free of charge, I offer a huge thanks! This journey would not have been possible for my Dad and I without the generous offerings of friends like David and Darrell smiley_clapping
-lee
I just want you to get the thing making sawdust so I can bring the Video Camera and get you your Pop working together making lumber. :)
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on November 20, 2012, 07:57:46 PM
I just want you to get the thing making sawdust so I can bring the Video Camera and get you your Pop working together making lumber. :)
Dad and I talked at length today about how close we are. With any luck, we'll be splitting logs within 3 weeks! That would be an impressive Christmas present for both of us!
-lee
Quote from: SPD748 on November 20, 2012, 08:03:06 PM
Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on November 20, 2012, 07:57:46 PM
I just want you to get the thing making sawdust so I can bring the Video Camera and get you your Pop working together making lumber. :)
Dad and I talked at length today about how close we are. With any luck, we'll be splitting logs within 3 weeks! That would be an impressive Christmas present for both of us!
-lee
I agree,,,,,this is really a big project that took both of you, mind and body to do. And being a Father and Son Team plus best friends.....got to get it documented. :)
If you really think about it, out of all the pics you have posted, we've only seen your Dad doing the work. :D
So I want to get it on film that you do more than just ride around and eat Donuts at the Shelby Krispy Kream. ;D
Lee,your so close you can smell it.I'am too lazy to go back and read all the posts but if you have an older headsaw it would be good form to have it hammered and checked before you start milling that will eliminate many variables.If you have a new saw turn it at its happy [hammered] speed.I put a line laser on my mill that lines up with the saws path,it helps especially if you don't cut every day.After a wile you just have to look at the log on the carriage and you will know where the cut will be. Frank C.
I think it will be an awesome present for you guys, and all of us who have watched this amazing project come to life!
I've always liked my deck a little lower than yours. I also liked to have a deck stretch all the way to the back. You need to set those dogs and tapers on long logs before you get to the saw.
You've come a long way.
I think in this pic you can see my deck going on to the other side of the log deck , you will need that much
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/27453/tues6_001%7E0.jpg)
Frank,
The headsaw that I have was sawing well when I bought the mill however I'm going to have it hammered and a new set of shanks and bits installed before starting up.
Ron,
I plan on adding an additional platform once the log deck is in place. I also plan on adding a hydraulic log turner in the future so the additional platform will have to be designed to allow room for the turner. Hopefully I can 'start' with what I have and add as needed. As to the platform height, I visited numerous mills and took note of the sawyers height. I visited one mill in particular where the height seemed to be comfortable to me so I went with it. Hopefully, it will work out.
David,
If Shelby had a Krispy Kreme, I wouldn't get anything done!
-lee
That is one nice setup you've got going
when you hammer the blade check the mandrel out . I do the collar on a lathe and set up a cross slide and machine the mandrel on the mill . I usually turn the tool upside down and machine the collar with about .004 to the 1/2 inch if you know what I mean .
Thanks for the reminder. I'll check the collar and see how the relief taper runs out. I can grind the collar and mandrel if needed.
Dad came over this morning pretty early. We planned a dinner with the family this evening so we had to hurry things along this morning. I'll let the pictures tell the story.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03956.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03965.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03978.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03993.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC03996.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04003.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04008.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04009.JPG)
Boy am I tired... and full! Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
-lee
I'm glad to finally see you in a pic or 2 . :)
Looks like your project is coming along as planned. Everything is so neat and clean..........for now.
Good pics Lee! smiley_thumbsup
Great work. I have been eagerly watching for the mill to come to life. I believe it's about to wake up! 8) 8).
Wowzaa. This project has been extremely well done... 8)
Pictures won't be enough, we are gonig to want to HEAR that sawmill run :D 8)
Things are looking really good but where is all the snow???
Lee, something I've done on boath circular mills I've set up is make a belt tensioner.I mounted a pillow block bearing on the arbor shaft outboard of the sheve with an adjustable link to the engine or better in your case to the shaft.That takes alot of strain off the arbor bearings especially when your pulling hard in a cut.Also helps to keep the belts tensioned.I see you have a turnbuckle arrangement on the bottom to help adjust.It takes some real strain to tension the belt pack properly. Frank C.
great looking setup , won't be long now .
I love this thread
I am really happy that you and your dad get to spend so much time together.
I got a chance yesterday to work at my dear friend Unto's (see sig line below)
Time spent...is priceless, actually I am building a better mobile axle base for my mill changing things from an axle on truck springs to dedicated trailer parts, and I think I dream half this stuff up just to spend time with Unto :)
We have close to a foot of snow here, and with no shop it makes things interesting. Unto used to be my next door neighbour, but since we moved he is now 45 min away. However he has a shop with no heat, at least when I drop a socket I don't have to get a magnet to find it in the snow.
Obviously it is not that practical to work over there, but when I do, I have a cup of tea and spend some quality time. It doesn't hurt that his wife is a retired baker either :)
He tells me stories..my favourite is about hauling pulp wood in the 50's with a KB7 that he bought from the scrap yard for 100.00 and fixed up for the road...its' great
Thanks for posting all the pics !!
My Dad and I started the engine today! I took a short video but I can't seem to get the youtube link to work smiley_computer_monitor
I'll keep trying.
-lee
Hi Lee
It has been very interesting watching you and your Dad Restore this old Gem. Now that you are nearing completion I have to admit I am getting little tingles of excitement. (It's not even my build and I'm in New Zealand). Keep up the good work. I can't wait to see it run.
Nick
Hopefully this works.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXiAOKzZoa0
-lee
Woohoo! My first video! Sorry it's so short guys. I'm going to take a better one later and post it.
-lee
My girlfriend took the video and this picture. That's my Dad on the left and a life long family friend Jim, on the right. I titled this one 'Best friends working hard on the sawmill'. I'm not sure there's much work going on here but the stories being told are priceless!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/IMG_18515B15D%7E0.jpg)
Jim was a long haul truck driver for over 50 years. My Dad was his mechanic for many of those years. Most times when those two get together, the focus turns from working on the mill to telling stories of the 'old days'. I've heard most of the stories before but somehow they never get old. I am truly blessed with a great father and a great friend. I wouldn't trade a single moment that I've spent with them for the world.
-lee
That is awesome Lee, and priceless. :)
Great Pics Lee! Save me a seat on the other side of Jim. :)
That is just amazing
Such a great bunch of memories, and soon sawdust too!
Good evening all,
We've been busy the past few days. Dad and I installed most of the feedworks assembly and bolted the top links and engine frame track in place. Here's what things look like so far.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04019.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04022.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04021.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04023.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04015.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04017.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04031.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04035.JPG)
This is the handle that the gentleman whom originally owned the mill used. As stated before, he and my Dad were good friends. We decided early on that I would use this handle. We installed it today. I added a couple of coats of Tung Oil to preserve the wood. Dad said, "I really wish J.O. was here to see it now." I replied, "He is." I hope he's proud of what we've done with his mill.
Here's to a master sawyer, John Oliver Gettys and to being one step closer :)
-lee
Looking great and getting closer.
Apparently the big belt tightener will work with the adjustable links in compression. I would of thunk one in tension would work against the torque of the engine. What keeps the engine frame from rotating forward ?
OHHHHH......if that 'Ol handle could talk. :)
Quote from: beenthere on December 01, 2012, 07:50:48 PM
Looking great and getting closer.
Apparently the big belt tightener will work with the adjustable links in compression. I would of thunk one in tension would work against the torque of the engine. What keeps the engine frame from rotating forward ?
I'm hoping the weight of the engine and frame will keep things settled. The engine/frame combo weighs in at a little over 3000 lbs. We're planning another test run tomorrow. We'll see...
-lee
Lee,your engine should be fine.Most old mills I've seen are cobbled up with the engine lag bolted to timbers with wedges driven in for adjustment.I like the adjustment on your feed lever.Good control of the feed and gigback adds alot to the enjoyment of the mill, not to mention control,its also the carriage brakes. Frank C.
We lagged some angle iron to a concrete slab. Then wedged in behind that.
I needed a mount for a spring which sets the feedworks to neutral so I got on that this morning.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04036.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04038.JPG)
... and after a little paint
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04051.JPG)
Dad and I decided it was time to see (and hear) this beast run. Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJTZ3a8QeEY
-lee
I saw the carriage start to move and it reminded me of a small train leaving the station to take folks on a ride through Kingsmountain. :)
SUPER nice job Lee. Do you know when you will be sawing your first log?
David
Good idea to have the feed works not creep the carriage in neutral as the sawyer has to lean over the log to dog and adjust for taper.You don't want the belts to grab or be jerky. Frank C.
Great machine you have there Lee. Have really been inspired to get back on mine. Soon. Thank you for sharing the journey so for. Chuck
I noticed the engine upon startup was "hunting" a little. (engine rev's up and down at idle) There is a buffer screw on the governor to help stop that from happening. Just break loose the jam nut and slowly turn the screw in until the hunting stops. That is if you want it to.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/27914/buffer_screw.jpg)
Hey Lee,
I notice you have the belts set pretty tight, you only have to move the lever a short throw. I have my belt a lot looser, so you have to move the lever farther. That way it gives a wider neutral position and is less likely to let the carriage creep on you. I installed a return spring on mine too to make sure that the lever centers back up.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28317/sawmill_first_log_042.jpg)
I guess once everything warms up and gets broke in you shouldn't have to worry about creeping. Although, when I first start up, I won't turn the blade over without someone there holding the lever when the blade starts turn.
Again, excellent job and thanks for keeping us all posted on your progress.
Alan
Hope I am wrong but my Ford 3000 pto drive causes tractor to hop around a mite. Wonder about rubber belting under skidd to help ??? ???
carriage creep can be a hard thing to stop at times . the other day just a little sawdust on the belts caused my carriage to creep some and I had to take a blower and clean the belt out so it would stop .
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/27453/thurs24_011%7E0.jpg) dust is a easy thing to have on my mill
AWSOME!!!!!!!!!
I too noticed that you weren't moving the handle very much. I do remember that the old timer who taught me sawmilling on a Lane #1 had to move the handle a lot more than what you are doing.
You may have to try it and see or compare with other operating mills. And adjust as time goes on.
Good luck.
Jim Rogers
Thanks for the tips guys. We were so excited to see the carriage move that I didn't really notice the short handle movement. I installed the feed belts just as they were before. I can see the advantages of loosening the belts so I'll make some adjustments.
I need a bigger battery so I won't have to use ether to start the engine. The battery that I'm using is out of my backhoe. I'll pick up a 4D battery later this week. Hopefully, it will have enough cranking amps to spin the engine over a little faster, which should make starting easier. If not, I can put the 4D in my backhoe and move up to an 8D for the mill.
David,
I'm hoping to get my saw tuned either this week or next. I still have to install the roll frame on the offbearers side of the mill, fabricate and install the carriage stops and husk cover. If all goes well, I hope to saw by Christmas! Virgil (doghunter) has been kind enough to offer to come down and help with the final setup, lead and such.
-lee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xos2MnVxe-c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xos2MnVxe-c)
Yes sir! :D :D :D
-lee
I hate to butt in, since the last time I caused some confusion.
When I was taught by an old timer that was considered to be the best sawyer in the area, he had me set the drive belt adjustment pretty slack. His reason was, IF either forward or reverse belt gets scrubbing on the FLANGE of one of the pulleys, it naturally tries to climb up on it.
IF that happens, there is NO slack, the belt gets tight, and you have a runaway carriage.
I heard about 2 occasions, when I lived in Arkansas, and had my mill, so, it CAN happen. Saw 3 different mills with the end walls blown open from runaways.
Just a heads up once you get ready to go sawing. Don't want to hear about any injuries if I can shed a little light on something.
Nice job, so far. smiley_thumbsup_grin
Thanks for the heads up! I never thought about the belt climbing up onto the ridge of the feed pulley. I can see where that would cause all kinds of drama! I'll definitely loosen the works before running it again.
-lee
It's more likely to run on the gig back drive pulleys. Most walls I saw blown out and, the mill closest to me, where a guy got a broken leg, being run over, were all on backing the carriage up.
Just keep your eyes open, until you can relax some. First few days will be waiting for something to go wrong. ;D ;D :D
Morning Lee. With that series of motor have you thought about keeping a block heater on it? My big case is a joy to crank some mornings so that is what I had to do save wear and tear on my starter. Please put the ether away. Nice job on that project again. Chuck
Good to see the progress Lee.On boath circular mill I've set up I've had a remote throttle and clutch in the sawyers box.Its handy to throttle back when your loading or turning logs.Best thing I've used is one of the old style truck parking brake handles,the knob on the top will fine adjust the engine speed, the hammered speed when applied and idle when released.The remote clutch is handy for safety reasons,easy to stop the blade when log handling or if something goes wrong and gets hung up.A linkage would not be hard to build.Your carriage feeds fast,but you have the power pull the saw. Frank C.
The hyd drive on mine is slower by far but it stays where you put carrage also have a lock out on carrage drive
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19561/005%7E2.JPG)
locked
not coperateing but when u bolt is kicked back lever is un locked to move carrage
Chuck,
I have a block heater in the works now. It looks like a 1500w heater is what's recommended for a 6 cylinder. I think I'll put a timer on it so I can set to to power up a few hours before I plan on starting up. That's how I have my truck set up and it works pretty good.
Frank,
I like the remote throttle and clutch idea. I'll ponder over the setup and layout and get back to you.
-lee
I'm heading out to the shop today to work on my fuel tank. I have a 275 gallon vertical tank that needs legs and an additional 2" bung. Dad and I talked about it the other day and couldn't come to a conclusion... What color should I paint it? It looks like most 'transfer' tanks are white. I saw some larger 'construction site' tanks that looked like red oxide primer. Then I found some that were black. Does one color have benefits over another? As always, thanks guys!
-lee
I would think that the white tank would keep the fuel cooler if it will be setting in the sun.
most around here are silver, not sure why.
I like the new colour coding system on small tanks, yellow for diesel, red for gas, blue for water.
btw, that looks like a very rewarding project. :)
We bought a 500 gal tank that was new. It was oxide red. The original tank was orange. I've seen military surplus that was olive green. We have used saddle bag tanks that were black. I guess the answer is that it doesn't really matter.
Quote from: rmack on December 05, 2012, 08:51:58 AM
I like the new colour coding system on small tanks, yellow for diesel, red for gas, blue for water.
I agree, plus it would reflect just about as much sunlight as white.
If the fuel tank is for diesel, I'd suggest yellow too. Never know who might be adding or taking fuel from that tank and the color just might help them to know the contents. A stencilwith the words as well might help.
Paint it the same color as your gimmy
Thanks for the input guys!
I've had another issue come up. I was looking at my saw and noticed that one of the sockets seems to have been repaired at some point. I took a closer look at the shank and bit and noticed that they don't seem to seat the same way all the other ones do. Here's a picture of what I'm talking about.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04080.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04082.JPG)
I'm taking the saw to a smith next week. Is this issue something that can be repaired?
Also, I checked all the shanks and came up with the following count :
(36) F8
(12) F8-0
(2) F8P
Can someone explain the difference?
Thanks!
-lee
lee
Those are two pics of the same tooth, right?
They are.
-lee
My wild GUESS would be worn out ring or wrong ring ???
not good pic but what mine looks like
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19561/100_1229_%28Custom%29.JPG)
The O & P says that its an oversized shank. You have a bunch of shanks that are mixed in there with some being oversized and some just being a regular size.
When they repair a saw, sometimes they get it right, sometimes they don't. I've had bits that didn't quite fit right in the saw, and just made sure they were tight enough not to come out. I'm assuming you've seated that shank.
Let your saw doc take a look at the saw and figure out if it needs new shanks, or if that shoulder needs a better repair. Either way, they're going to have to hammer that saw.
Captain
Is your sawguide riding that close to your shanks? I've always had mine where the sawguide doesn't touch any part of the shank and usually keep them down about ¼" or so.
that shank is just twisted in too far take it back out and reinsert it just till the bottom of the tooth stops my guess is it was bumped while the saw was off the mill dont let a few oversize shanks worry you as a saw wears sometimes you have to go to oversizes to maintain the tightness of a few sockets my pine saw has mostly 2nd oversizes with a few 3rd and 4th oversize shanks mixed in as long as the shank and tooth fit securely it shouldnt be a problem virgil
Ron
Belive dark ring might be pitch guides are inside shanks(rings here abouts)
Followup question,
I'm replacing the bits before the Dr tunes things up. I 'think' the shanks are ok as the gullet area is still square and all but the one seats properly (Virgil - I'll try re-installing that one today). As far as the shanks go, I'll let the Dr have the final word on run or replace. My question for you guys is: What bits do you recommend? I'll be sawing mixed species with an emphasis on pine. I'm a little confused due to all the choices. Regular, long, chrome, standall or combinations there of. I've decided against carbide for the headsaw however I'm told carbide may be a worthwhile choice for my edger? It's a Miner with 2 1/2 pattern saws. I suppose that first line should read "Followup questions" :) Anyway, once again, thanks guys!
-lee
Lee,I prefer the Simonds regular long blue tips.Have used the standalls they work fine but seem to require more power.Around here if shanks are worn out some sawyers go to standalls to get a few more miles out of the shanks.Over time try boath types you will prefer one over the outher but they boath will work fine. Frank C.
lee i run standalls but i mostly cut hardwood and my shanks are pretty worn i have used carbide in my edger saws it stays sharp forever in them i probably sawed 250000 feet before i had to sharpen them virgil
I have used Simonds long in regular and chrome and used a winter shank. Either one is good, but you cannot swage the chrome. You also need a grinder to knock off the chrome before you can start to hand file. I've never liked standalls.
You may be able to get away with a regular tooth and a summer shank if you aren't in any frozen timber. Frozen wood gives finer dust, and you need something to break the dust speed in the gullet. That's the purpose of the standall bit.
Carbide works fine if you're not hitting anything, like nails or rocks. Chrome stay sharp somewhat longer than the steel bit. I have had some steel bits that just won't hold an edge. Quality problems with Simonds. Chrome will hold it longer. It was cost effective for us to go with chrome, especially with the poor steel quality we got for about 3-4 months.
Lee,
I cant help you on which bit to use but I will recommend you not go with Simonds shanks if the have to replace them. I have a current post going (don't know how to provide a link) where the Simonds didn't quite fit right and had to send the back. I wound up with Hoppe shanks and am well pleased.
Charlie
Charles,
I read your post https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,62263.0.html. Great information! I'm hoping my shanks are ok. If not, I'll look into Hoppe's shanks.
Given the knowledge here, I think I'll go with blue tip long shanks in the headsaw to start. It looks like it'll be carbide in the edger. I have a surface grinder and a diamond wheel so I can sharpen the carbide when needed.
-lee
Lee,
Menomiee, has them and has been very helpful as well as all the members with trouble shooting.
Charlie
Quote from: SPD748 on December 06, 2012, 06:17:41 PM
Given the knowledge here, I think I'll go with blue tip long shanks in the headsaw to start. It looks like it'll be carbide in the edger. I have a surface grinder and a diamond wheel so I can sharpen the carbide when needed.
-lee
You should consult your saw doctor for the exact bits you should use. There are lots of variables that he has to consider. Such as, type of wood you'll be sawing, speed of saw arbor, size of saw blade, just to mention a few.
He will need lots of information from you as to what your saw set-up is so that he can hammer it right for you.
And he will help you to select the right bits and shanks that you'll need based on this information and the saw blade itself.
My comments are to say, don't jump the gun, until you talk it all over with him....
Jim Rogers
Actually, I would have to disagree with consulting the saw doc as the final authority on bit choice for the very reasons you give Jim. The Sawyers here can give him the best on the hoof advice available. Over my sawyer career I tried several. Hated the chromes other then for the vertical edger. If you are sawing logs with bark, forget about carbide. Any course dirt oe miniscule small embedded stone will destroy them. I didn't get along with standalls either. I ran supershanks (winter) and standard bits with the highest degree of success. 9/32 for F pattern, Had a B for awhile, but mostly f.
Got to agree with Jeff But I like my Chormes I adapted a cut off disk to my hand grinder and it does ok I can cut within 1/8 in in 16 ft and ifn you looked at the teeth on my blade you would say NO way they are hammered badly ::) ::) corners knocked off ect. wish budget would allow new ones but West Coast economy sucks at present and at 1-2 days a week work ain't going to happen fer a spell. But I am getting by and this might make me better at tuneing ole Belsaw :P :P :P
To Jeff and all:
I meant no disrespect to any of the many experienced sawyers here offering their experiences and knowledge about bits and shanks.
I just wanted to offer to keep an open mind and to soak up all information and make an informed decision.
Jim Rogers
what a really nice set up you got your self. you have to be proud of your craftsmenship the hole saw looks great. leand lost from reading this hole thing to day, still have not made out to my shop to do any work but i think i leand lost to off set getting to the shop late. thanks for all the time you took to write this hole thing i know it must have take lost's of time to post all the pic's but i found them very helpfull.
A small update guys...
I have an appointment with a Sawsmith on Friday at 10am smiley_smash. Interestingly enough, he has recommended Standall bits for general sawing. Hopefully, he'll allow me to ask plenty of questions and take tons of pictures. Until then...
-lee
Lee,I hope you have a good visit with the smith.Not all saw pounders are created equal some really understand why their doing something outhers just learned by wrote, cause and effect.A sawsmith that will take the time to help you is a big help.Ask him why he prefers standalls outher than being overstocked with them,prehaps in your area theirs a valid reason.Worn shanks look worn if their tight and the top edge of the shank is square their OK,when their worn thin kinda roundy and pointy they need replacing before tensioning. Frank C.
Enjoy your visit Lee. The people I use in Shreveport will explain to you and make recommendations on your info to them. I have asked ton's of questions. Good group. Chuck
Quote from: SPD748 on December 11, 2012, 11:31:22 PM
Interestingly enough, he has recommended Standall bits for general sawing.
All I can say to that is. Yuck.
I'll second that. I'd go with winter shanks before converting to standalls. It sure will be interesting to hear what the saw smith has to say as to why. I'd also be interested in how many logs they have actually put through a saw.
Well,i asked my saw smith,one day,how did you get into this business???he said,at one time he had a mill and could not find a good saw smith to take care of his saws-so he learned himself,he is still in business,as far as i know...albert
Who's your sawsmith? The ones I know in the area went up to Erie and Ontario sawsmith school. I'm not complaining about their work. I'm just curious about the preference for standalls.
Ron,the smith,i was using was near watkins Glen,ny-not pa,my mill was at Newfield,ny
albert
The Smith's name is Bret Weinberger. His shop is in Fleetwood, NC. I spoke with an employee named Darren who recommended the Standalls. He went on to say that they run carbide in their saw. Perhaps he's thinking that my shanks are worn and, as previously stated here, is trying to get a few more miles out of them.
I suppose I should have clarified earlier that an employee of the Sawsmith recommended the Standall's, not the Smith himself. That opinion may not be shared by the two. I'll ask plenty of questions when I get there. If I get the feeling that the shop is overstocked with Standall's and he is looking to unload a box or two, I'll bring that up and see where it leads.
It seems that the consensus here is to stay away from both carbide and Standall's.
-lee
Hi Lee,
I don't know Brett personally, but I used his father for years before he passed away. His name was Walter Weinberger. Brett has a good reputation around here. Assuming he learned his trade from Walter, you can't go wrong.
Greg
Thanks Greg. I have heard only good things about him so I think things will go well.
On another note, I had a conversation with a fellow forum member last night and a question came up. How close to the blade does the husk cover need to be? Below is a drawing of an overhead view of the husk. The upper image is drawn without the cover for reference. I was planning on using white oak planks to build the cover.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/Mill_Layout_-_overhead_-_husk_cover_-_forum%7E1.jpg)
I have enough room above the mandrel bearing to run the cover over the bearing and still be below the headblock height. I think with the hinged section over the bearing, I can flip the cover up for bearing maintenance and adjustment. If anyone sees a problem with this idea, please let me know. Thanks guys!
-lee
You need it as close to the blade as you can get it, without the blade rubbing on it. This area is the area that is going to be prone to causing your blade to heat. You want to try and stop any debris from getting caught between there and the blade. Invariably something will, and it will act like a wedge on the saw plate and it will get hot quick. I had a special stick I kept so I could jump out of the saw cab and knock or pry stuff out of there. Once something is in there you have to shut that saw down as quick as possible, as I said, the say can get hot very very fast and heat is the enemy of a circular saw.
If you can make the part that is bolted to the husk adjustable, so you can move it back and forth away from the blade, you may want to. This gives you the option to be able to adjust the distance your hinged portion will be from the blade.
Excellent idea Jeff. I can elongate the bolt holes in the rear section to allow the entire assembly to be adjusted. Thanks!
-lee
Also, in my past, being able to quickly flip that board up when something was wedged against the blade was important. Some way quicker than stopping the blade, just reach down and relieve the binding.
But regardless how close, there will be the right size chunk or splinter that finds that gap to plug up. ;)
Quote from: beenthere on December 13, 2012, 11:27:49 AM
Also, in my past, being able to quickly flip that board up when something was wedged against the blade was important. Some way quicker than stopping the blade, just reach down and relieve the binding.
But regardless how close, there will be the right size chunk or splinter that finds that gap to plug up. ;)
Quote from: Jeff on December 13, 2012, 10:08:08 AM
I had a special stick I kept so I could jump out of the saw cab and knock or pry stuff out of there.
With an electrically powered mill, you always always hit the stop button, and then try and quickly flip the offending material out of the saw. The reason you kill power first is, that about 20% of the time, you won't be able to get it out with your stick, so now, if you don't, you have allowed the saw to turn at full power creating heat while you try to get the stick, bark, or slap out, and when you fail, you still have to go back and kill the power.
Our mill, with its very heavy c-belt sheave, would probably take a couple minutes to stop once power is killed. Thats a lot of mass and momentum. I'd had hundreds of times over the years, where I'd kill it because of debris and the saw would stop within that rotation. Imagine that sort of friction continuing under power for
any length of time. There are times that there may be a very small sliver get in there you can't even see, heating the saw, and your first indication is saw wobble, or worse yet, the saw taking a dive. If you have the means to kill the power locally at the Sawyers station, do it.
And with a vertical edger, you always have to wait until that stops spinning, whether you have a stick or not. I always shut it all down - edger, head saw and offbearer. I also found that a piece of banding worked pretty good.
Quote from: Jeff on December 13, 2012, 10:08:08 AM
You need it as close to the blade as you can get it, without the blade rubbing on it. This area is the area that is going to be prone to causing your blade to heat. You want to try and stop any debris from getting caught between there and the blade. Invariably something will, and it will act like a wedge on the saw plate and it will get hot quick. I had a special stick I kept so I could jump out of the saw cab and knock or pry stuff out of there. Once something is in there you have to shut that saw down as quick as possible, as I said, the say can get hot very very fast and heat is the enemy of a circular saw.
If you can make the part that is bolted to the husk adjustable, so you can move it back and forth away from the blade, you may want to. This gives you the option to be able to adjust the distance your hinged portion will be from the blade.
I no nothing about circular saws, but I will ask this question. if debris is likely to get caught between the wood cover and the blade, wouldn't it make sense to eliminate the cover? or make a cover that is small enough just to protect whatever bearings are there. and far enough away from the blade that nothing can get caught up in the space?
When you finish your cut, your slab or board falls to the outside. Most of the boards or slabs would do ok, but its those few that would fall around your arbor that would give you problems. On a hand mill, they could bounce up and hit the top of the saw. Think of a slab that's heavy on the near end to the sawyer. If it hits the top of the saw, its coming back to the sawyer, and not slowly. Automatic mill have a takeaway belt that moves all the heavy material away from the saw. The hand mills rely on the hired help to take it away.
The other problem is what happens to those large pieces that would fall down? Depending on clearance, they could hit the bottom of the saw. Now you have a piece rattling around underneath your mill that you can't see. And your saw could get a very bad wobble. You better not be in the cut or gigging back. You could hit the carriage with your saw. Or a piece could actually climb up from down below. Covers also help keep sawdust in its place.
What gets caught are often very small pieces. I've had splinters go between my saw and the offbearer. The inner bark on tulip poplar can cause problems. It doesn't happen that often, but you have to be prepared when it does.
I was thinking the best way to remedy the problem with stuff getting between the saw and the board woud be to make it hinged, so it would flip up and put a big handle on the back side so you coud pull back on the handle from a safe distance and let the lil splinter or bark ect fall down into the pit.
I have never seen a handle on the back of one of these. Is there a reason it wouldnt work and be much safer than trying to remove the obstruction by hand or with a stick?
PC
Any handle where there would be enough leverage would be in the way. If you ever stood beside a mill with many times upwards of 100 horsepower pushing the jam the opposite way you only think you will pull it with a handle. :D The best way to remedy it, is has been discussed I can guarantee. I don't know how many sawmills for sure Ron has ran and been involved in setting up, but its several. Its all I did my entire working live until I couldn't. Ours had a handle on it. you don't move it with a handle.
Most times, the easiest way to get something out that is tightly wedged, is once the saw has been shut down and stopped, is to get some heavy gloves on and try to rotate the saw blade the opposite direction, and the hinge section may then pop up releasing the debris. There are times that the only way to do it is back off the guide pins and loosen the saw from the arbor.
Lee,on the two handset mill I've set up I had a hinged oak board next to the saw,first mill had a foot pedal that would flip it up,my current mill has a handle I can easily reach.Its usally the little stuff that will give you the problems,and it takes little rubbing to affect and heat the plate.I like to bevel the edge of the board next to the saw,that allows alot of crap to fall through.Two schools of thought on the gap some like it very close outhers a gap that will let the small stuff fall through,as suggested make it adjustable and use your judgement.For larger stuff the remote clutch is handy.Carve a nice handle on a piece of stock to use as a pusher if something is agenst the saw, and keep it handy in case your offbearer is scratching or snoozing. Frank C.
Frank, I'm guessing you bevel away from the saw on the bottom side?
I didn't know and was wondering.
I had a neighbor with a handset 48'' sawmill. His plate was steel and hinged. I think it had about a 3/8'' to 1/2'' gap. He would use a stick or a piece of slab to flick any trash out that would try to get against the saw. It is real dangerous. I thought anything you might do to keep out of harms way would certiany be worth it.
PC
With this thread in mind, I rode out to the mill today and snapped a few pictures. This is an example of how mine works.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28317/sawmill_log_deck_2_002.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28317/sawmill_log_deck_2_003.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/28317/sawmill_log_deck_2_004.jpg)
The first board is the hinged piece I think we are talking about.... I have it set with about 1/4 inch clearance to the blade. This is a long board that extends from the arbor to several feet beyond the saw blade. This puts the sawyer a safe distance from the cutting edge.
If anything small gets wedged behind the blade all you have to do is reach down and flip the hinged board and the piece will either fall to the pit, or flip back from the blade where it can be pulled out of the way. I made a pickaroon from a heavy broom handle with a nail through the end. I also have a long push stick to get rid of the scraps.
Alan
Having a wooden area there may be much more forgiving than the metal we always had. the difference with ours is that it was a live belt roller conveyor. The part that would flip, was only over a small portion of the saw, and over the guide pin area.
Here is how mine is only anchored on end away from blade in case of junk against blade just lift blade end of screen.The screen lets saw dust fall thru
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19561/saw_mill_dust_system_005.JPG)
Yes Jeff,beveled away from the saw at the bottom,quite a bit of the stuff that would lodge between, just falls through.I also made a board/slab kicker between my saw and wheel type splitter,because I often cut alone.It just swings up and pushes the piece away from the saw plate,handle in the sawyers box,don't use it much. Frank C.
For what it's worth, in reference to Ron's mention of stuff flying back, The Mill I bought years ago, had a 2 X 4 get hung on the back side of the blade, and it killed the sawyer, hitting him in the head.
My log turner would always stick his head out, looking right down the blade, so, one day, I had the off bearer send a 1 X 6 oak board up on the back of the saw, so all could see the danger. It flung that board about 30 feet beyond where we were standing, watching from a safe distance.
To me, that's about the most dangerous part of circle saw milling. It takes a split second for it to happen.
Deadheader brings up a good point,its addictive to watch the saw slice the log but its best done from the side out of the line of fire.Your feed lever should be off to the side,away from the saw, and you should stand on the safer side of that.Pull your setworks over line thing up then retreat to the side. Frank C.
What is a lot of fun is when a chunk gets lodged down there at the saw guide. No hinging will take care of that.
We had one mill that had a metal plate that was hinged. Underneath was a small hydraulic cylinder that had an arm attached that would raise the metal plate to dislodge the piece. Worked real nice.
Ron, did that have a live conveyor right up along the saw? I'm wondering how that would be constructed if it did. Our conveyor was designed so the whole thing could be adjusted up next to the saw, so almost anything that came off the saw, even the smallest edgings, would go down the line without being fussed with. You can sort of see it in this old video clip. THe biggest problem spot for stuff getting into, was back closer to the saw's leading edge, and the guide pin area, where you can see it is more open.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VPJ-Ojha-s
The metal plate wasn't on a live offbearer. There was a live belt right beyond the board splitter, and it worked well.
The Cleereman that is being installed in NJ has a hinged plate that sits next to the saw. it has a live offbearer. It sets there on an angle, and rests against metal stops, so it doesn't rub against the saw. The angle is about 30°. When I flipped it open, there looks to be room for a small air cylinder. We're thinking about putting a cylinder in there and operate it from the booth. The same concept could be used with hydraulic. You don't need much throw to open it up and it would help get some of those things that typically miss the belt (like pieces of edging strips) off your saw as well as pieces that get in next to the saw. Next time I'm up there I'll try to remember to take some pictures of it.
You probably could do a large, live offbearer by hinging the back part to the husk and using a cylinder to lift the front part by the saw. The only problem would be if there was any wear from vibration and use where the offbearer might eventually hit the saw. I have heard of some live ones that lifted, just never seen them.
Quote from: Ron Wenrich on December 14, 2012, 12:05:15 PM
The metal plate wasn't on a live offbearer. There was a live belt right beyond the board splitter, and it worked well.
What would happen to the short beavertail slabs you inevitably get on the exiting end of the log? Did you have to push them off of the offbearing conveyor with the slabbing of the next log, or did someone have to physically remove them?
Pushed them off with the next slab or board. That usually took care of it. I could flip the plate up pretty high and the piece fell off the back. This was on a portable Jackson Lumber Harvester mill.
My pic don't show it but I run mill from beside blade not behind it also that is what big pipe is for TO HIDE behind if things go south on you
Ok guys,
The saw is officially hammered and installed. Brett (the Sawsmith) looked at my saw and noticed that the socket which wasn't seating correctly had a loose shank. We also noticed that socket had been welded into place from a previous repair. Brett streched a new shank and installed it. He recommended running the bits that I have (he took the two standall's that were in there out and added two regular bits) to start. He hammered the saw for my speed and answered a ton of questions!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04095.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04104.JPG)
Dad and I brought the saw home and installed it on the mandrel.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04108.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04113.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04115.JPG)
We finished out the day by loosely setting the saw guide into place and starting on the cross members that will hold the husk cover in place.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04122.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04124.JPG)
It's starting to look like a sawmill now!
-lee
It wont be long now Lee!!! GOOD WORK!!!
You nay already know this, but I thought I should throw it out there. When mounting your saw, you should always pull the slack out of the shear pins by pulling the saw back before tightening the mandrel nut.
Thanks Jeff. I pulled the slack just before tightening. I suppose, if there were enough slack, the first bite of the saw could shear the pins.
By the way, I love the hat!
-lee
I think that is part of the theory, but more likely when you hit something very hard, if it was not against the pins, your saw could turn just a little in the collars, and then be more apt to shear the pins. You don't want to spin a saw in the collars or you will be in for some machine work again.
When you shear the pins, the saw gets tighter on the collar. Way tighter.
I hit a pair of ceramic insulators one time at speed in an aspen log, took off about 6 or 7 shoulders and sheared the pins. The saw almost welded to the collars. You could see where the metal pushed around.
I have learned sooo o o much from you and your contributors, thanks for the details, your craftsmanship is superb.
My question is how tight are you going to torque the collar nut? Is this torque value specific to a particular mill brand? Thanks.
Not very tight. Take the saw collar wrench and snug up your collars while pulling back on the saw to engage the shear pins. Then, you just want to kick it down a couple of times with your foot. That's all the tighter you need or want. Too tight will smash the collar, and do the opposite of what you want.
Thanks Ron,
The Sawsmith demonstrated for me on a mandrel that he had set up in his shop. Saw on, stick through the mandrel pulley to stop any rotation, pull back on the saw and snug the nut. Then, a few light taps with a 2 pound hammer. Finally, I checked the plate with a straight edge to ensure the curvature remains (concave from the carriage side of the saw).
On the Sawsmith note, while I was at his shop, I noticed a 6 gauge saw standing in a rack. It easily stood out among several 8 gauge saws surrounding it. I wondered (and asked) what monster mill needed such a heavy saw. He produced a 6 gauge shank and a 3/8" wide bit :o I handed it to my Dad and said, "Here's my new bits." He took one look at it and said, "Are you planning on cutting lumber or dust." I imagine it would take some serious horsepower to pull bits that wide. The Sawsmith stated those were for a Scragg mill most often.
-lee
The smaller mills use the 3/8" bit, although the Morbark of Canada came with a 38 tooth F pattern saw with a 3/8" bit. We never ran it. I don't think that mills like the scraggs or dimension mill run any lead. I know the Mighty Mite doesn't have an outside collar. They use the wider tooth for clearance.
You guys keep on with this and I might build up the courage to pull my deceased father-in-laws Meadows mill out from under the fallen over shed and see if it is salvageable.
Maybe Doghunter will come look at it with me?
But I caution you, my work will not be near as pretty as this thread!
WHAT'S That I Hear "Meadows Mill" Details Man Details ??? smiley_bigears smiley_flipping smiley_flipping smiley_dizzy :o :o :) :) I gots me one of them too Its my Grandfathers and was the first in Australia in 84 but still in project mode Meadows #2 Deluxe and still has alot more sawing to come
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17724/2195/gates_sawmil_weddingl_147.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17724/2195/gates_sawmil_weddingl_148.jpg) ;) oz_smiley ;D ;D 8) 8)
Regards Chris
Good morning all,
I have a little time before I'm off to work so I started drawing an idea for a rotary scale to add to my carriage. I'm thinking of something like the one on Cleereman carriages as seen here: http://www.cleereman.com/model_as380_carriage.html
Basically, a round ruler which will be chain driven to rotate off the set shaft and indicate knee movement. My carriage has the standard Frick scale on the left most headblock but it's down low and would be covered by a log. I'd rather have a larger scale set up high where I can easily see it. I have some 18" diameter steel tubing that I'll use to make the dial. I was thinking of a 12" scale, that's 12" of knee movement per revolution of the dial. With the 18" diameter tubing having a circumference of 56.54" that would mean 4.71" of dial rim travel per 1" of knee movement. I think that leaves plenty of room between marks on the scale to allow easy sight and an accurate set.
Here's my questions. What scales should I print on the dial? I know that I'll have a 1/4" scale, that's 0, 1/4", 1/2", 3/4", 1" and so on. This scale would only indicate linear movement of the knees with no allowances for saw kerf. I think a 4/4 scale is pretty standard but what amount should I allow for saw kerf given my 9/32" bits? Are there any other scales that you guys find useful?
I'm sure I'll have a ton of follow up questions based on the responses received. Thanks for sticking with me guys!
-lee
Here is something I posted awhile back
Quote from: Jeff on January 01, 2003, 04:22:38 PM
A 36 inch circle gauge would be a fairly simple thing to make.
Each 10 degrees of the circle would represent one inch. Mark off a scale on the diameter of your guage. Set up a shaft and bearinging system that lines up with dead center of your gauge. the shaft would stick through the gauge with a pointer attatched. on the other end of the shaft you would nee a 36 tooth 60 pitch sprocket. to run the guage, connect a small aircraft cable to the front of the knee closest to the dial. runt it through some pulleys so the other end will go straight up towards the sprocket. Attach the cable to a lenght of 60 chain and have that go up and over the sprocket and then hang straight down on the other side. The other end of the cahin should be attached to a heavy cylynder shaped weight. This would simply hang in a length of pipe with an I.D. slightly bigger then the weight. This keeps the weight from swinging.
When the knees go forward the cable pulls the chain, which turns the sprocket wich moves the dial. The weight slides up and down in the pipe keeping the chain tight on the sprocket teeth.
The key would be 36. 36 teeth, 360 degrees, 36 inch scale. ;D
Quote from: Jeff on January 01, 2003, 05:37:33 PM
I figure you could build the one I described for nothing if you can scavenge parts. :)
I drew up what I was trying to describe. It may be as hard to figure out as the verbage. :D
(https://forestryforum.com/images/YaBBImages/userpics/gauge.gif)
I've never seen any scale on a circle mill other than an indicator that shows actual movement. As a young sawyer, I had to learn how to add and subtract fractions in my head at the same time adding and subtracting kerf. Off course we had setworks, but that was simply to move the headblocks to the place I already knew it was supposed to move to. With a 1/4 inch saw kerf, you can get pretty proficient with your numbers quickly. Personally, I think anyone that relies on a special scale rather than learning to self compute is doing themselves a disservice.
I certainly understand your meaning Jeff. When I was a toolmaker's apprentice, I had my calculator confiscated and replaced with good old paper and pencil. It was a learning experience that I'll never forget.
I like your scale design... perhaps even better than my own. For the scale graduation, would you use the 1/4" scale as indicated in this drawing?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/Carriage_Scale_-_face_dial.jpg)
As luck would have it, I already have a 36 tooth, 60 pitch sprocket and about 20' of 60 roller chain ;D
-lee
I'm sure others may give you better advice, but I believe the hand pull set works on your carriage should have a "board notch" in the gear. When you set your handle's lever in the board notch you should be able to pull one full stroke and advance one full board thickness. And I believe the set works accounts for the saw cut thickness.
It's been better then 20 years since the old timer taught me to saw with a circular saw mill and hand set works, but I think that's how it goes.
He had a horizontal board with measurements on it and a forked stick that went around it, on his carriage. You could look up and read the fork at a point to see if you were on 8" or 10" for example.
And he gave me a folding ruler to use to verify that the cant was the same size as the carriage ruler.
It sounds like your 36 tooth gear will help you.
Good luck.
Jim Rogers
Quote from: SPD748 on December 18, 2012, 11:19:02 AM
For the scale graduation, would you use the 1/4" scale as indicated in this drawing?
-lee
Absolutely, It's easy enough to read to a 1/16 on the outer edge of the scale. Half of a Half is a 16th. Have of that is a /32. You can eyeball that easy on a large scale. I may have a diagram here of a commercial version. Let me see if I can find it.
I have an old Forestall Parts book here, and I thought it might have a scale diagram. Turns out it has about everything except that. :-\
Lee,no reason what your planning won't work.My Chase setworks has a quandrant with holes and a pin to drop in them that allows for lumber dimention plus kerf and its finely adjustable.I also have the gauge board Jim Rogers described,mine was hard to read so I mounted an aluminum yardstick on it.I have a chart I made up with the board plus kerf values and I cut the cant by the yardstick scale and everything usally works out,just pulling it over by the quandrant. Frank C.
I have a board with a few scales on it. The scale says lane. The top is actual distance from the blade to the head block. The next is a 1" scale that takes into account the 1/4" kerf so it reads 1 ,2 ,3 for the boards but it is 1" ,2 1/4, 3 1/2 ect. The next is for 5/4 boards than 1 1/2" boards and last 2".
I mostly cut 1" and 2" but the 5/4 comes in handy.
Jeff is spot on on the head math. The scale is great for dropping all the same off a cant but you often need the head math. 8" cant so last cut at 8" and a group of side boards 9 1/4", 10 1/2", 11 3/4", 13".
Soon you will be counting a good day as a day with no miscuts.
Yup, I didn't mention that fact, that the head math is almost a must when you are cutting mixed dimensions. We always had a cut list, but our list was in numbers of bundles of such and such for a load, not pieces. A load might consist of mixed 4/4 and 6/4 fixed width boards, and cants of various sizes. Sometimes I would be working on 8 to 10 different cuts. To be the most efficient, you needed to let the individual log demand what size you cut out of it. You had to have a good sense on the logs and their sizes that were going to be available and make sure you took advantage of what cut what best so you didn't end up having little logs to cut big cuts. Big logs for little cuts were not really an issue, as it's great fun to see 24 4x4's drop out of a single log, and watch the lumber stacker glare at you as you rolled the next log up. ;D ;D
What I'm getting at, is that the human mind is a superb tool for cutting on the fly rather than tying yourself to a scale.
Goodness, I almost forgot, GRADE. Grade lumber was always paramount when sawing hardwoods, including aspen, which was about 80% of what I cut the last ten years I sawed. Pulling grade lumber will waylay your best plans on getting the dimensional lumber you planned on getting out of the log. You have to be able and ready to change stride completely every board.
Lee , My frick came with a dial like the one in your post 529. It was made of aluminum painted yellow with black letters. It was connected to the set shaft with a #35 chain loop and went to a 90* gearbox that operated the indicator shaft . The dial had seen better days ,was cracked in half . I made a new one out of a 304 ss,ball milled marks and plan to paint it yellow againwith the black marks.
I use 9/32 bits but usally figure the kerf 5/16",some saws 3/8" works out closer.All this will come to you Lee when you start milling,like knowing where your saw will run when slabbing.The human mind is a marvelous computer when not plugged up with BS. Frank C.
Gday
I run 1/4 bits and kerf most of the time in saws upto about 48" and Ill run 9/32 on anything over 48" ;) ;D
Im another that likes and prefers to do the math in my head ;) one big mill i worked on only had the digital backstand readout as the setworks where out (had been for a long time) and you had to do all the calculations as you went and just use the stick to jog the head blocks to where you wanted :) the chipper saw setworks where working which was handy though ;)
I think what you have in mind will work well Mate ;) ;D 8)
Regards Chris
Quote from: bandmiller2 on December 19, 2012, 07:13:55 AM
I use 9/32 bits but usally figure the kerf 5/16",some saws 3/8" works out closer.All this will come to you Lee when you start milling,like knowing where your saw will run when slabbing.The human mind is a marvelous computer when not plugged up with BS. Frank C.
Its standard practice to figure a quarter inch kerf with 9/32 bits. Trying to figure 5/16ths would definitely be plugging up your head.
I guess if you are not concerned in a precise target outcome at the end, you don't have to be as concerned.
Based on Jeff's idea for a scale, I came up with this draft. (Ok, I can't lie, I completely stole Jeff's idea :))
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/Carriage_Scale_-_face_dial%7E0.jpg)
The JPEG conversion has blurred the lines of the scale face. This face will be printed on vinyl and adhered to the steel dial plate. The lines will be crisp and clear. It's hard to tell, but I added 1/8" measurement lines to the scale. I printed a full size drawing to see how that would look. Jeff was right, the scale lines really show up well on such a large diameter.
Jeff's vision was to have a pointer rotating on the drive shaft instead of the dial rotating. I think either way will work. I may change back to the rotating dial depending on how the design goes. In this picture, the pointer is stationary at the 12 o'clock position, meaning the distance to 0 will be on the right of the pointer instead of the left. This way, the indicated distance is always at the same place on the dial instead of having to 'hunt' the pointer. Now that I type it, it sounds pretty trivial. The standard 'clock' setup would probably work better. What do you guys think?
-lee
thinking about this-if the dial did the turning,then your numbers could be the right side up and have the pointer or courser stationary at the top-when i had my mill i made many changes to the board scale and never did get it right.
albert
Quote from: york on December 19, 2012, 08:55:06 AM
thinking about this-if the dial did the turning,then your numbers could be the right side up and have the pointer or courser stationary at the top-when i had my mill i made many changes to the board scale and never did get it right.
albert
That was my thinking on the dial turning instead of the pointer.
-lee
I used a threaded eye bolt with a jam nut on carrage end to to allow adjustment. Where I use cheat wheel mine is set to read amount of cant remaining as to know when to roll cant as in get to 6" flip it and cut 1X6 or 2X6. Belsaw set works are not real presise anyways so you cant count on reader board. Still want to modify a heavier carrage but may never get around to it :( :(
My idea for the pointer to turn, is because it makes the mechanics much more light weight. If the pointer is the only thing that turns, the weight needed to turn it back would be far less significant. If the pointer is on a shaft via an allen set, it would be easy to adjust the pointer to the scale when ever is needed it.
The numbers are not upside down on a clock. ;) I'd orient the numbers all horizontal next to the give line. This also gives you a better image in your mind when you look at the dial and are trying to add your boards in your head, and know how far the needle has to move. Another reason is, the needle is a far smaller target, and an easier repair than a big moving face. Sooner or later, something is going to fly off that saw and hit it. It is going to happen.
Jeff is 100% right about something hitting it I mounted a chain accross carrage tracks so you could not get too close to blade measured knees and all but guess what carrage was ahead and I forgot reader board >:( >:( Repair #1 Talk about shooting yourself in foot ::)
Jeff may have something there-36 Dia. plate is big and may give you some trouble,hmmm..
albert
Yet again, I bow to the wisdom of experience. How's this?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/Carriage_Scale_-_face_dial%7E1.jpg)
-lee
I'd suggest a needle broad at the end that is in the center, that tapers to a finer point in its last third. It will be easier for the eyes to pick up and your eyes will naturally travel to the end. Like many clocks have. Make the needle so IT tightens to the shaft, not so the shaft tightens on the needle. That way when the inevitable happens, you are only fixing the needle.
Dad and I installed the husk cover today. I used 1 1/2" white oak for the planks and 4" channel for the cross members. I had to add spacers under the channel to get the top of the planks up to the correct height. The hinged plank is adjustable to dial in the proper distance from the saw plate. As pictured, the distance between the wood plank and saw plate is ~ 1/4". Do you guys think this is a good place to start?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04127.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04136.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04135.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04131.JPG)
On the back side of the mandrel, the plank is ~ 5/8" from the saw plate.
-lee
Looks good Lee, I like it. ;D 1/4" cledarance is what I have and it has always worked good for me.
Alan
I think that the moving hand would be a better way to quickly notice the progress that you made sawing . Well unless you use a different color on each quarter of the dial . The numbers on a moving dial will kind of blend together . 36 " dial will be very visable ,mine is only 16"
SPD 748,
This has been a great thread to follow, thank you.
? you going to build a cover for the drive belts??
DGDrls
Quote from: dgdrls on December 19, 2012, 10:02:18 PM
SPD 748,
This has been a great thread to follow, thank you.
? you going to build a cover for the drive belts??
DGDrls
I am. Dad and I talked about that today. He said the first boards off the mill should be used to cover the drive belt, among other things.
-lee
Jeff
Dont want to rock boat even tho I like your hat My Mother in law comes to mind :laugh: :laugh: :snowball:
Merry Christmas to you
Brian
Quote from: york on December 19, 2012, 02:19:57 PM
Jeff may have something there-36 Dia. plate is big and may give you some trouble,hmmm..
albert
Albert, I'd not make it 36 inches in diameter. No need to be that big.
The scale on the Corinth-American circular mill that I work on is almost unreadable in certain light conditions. I was intending to replace it with a scale cut down from a 48" drywall square. I laid it along the existing scale and found about a 3/8" difference. I expect that the 3/8" may have been an attempt to allow for the difference between the 9/32" bits and the ease of factoring for a 1/4" kerf. The previous owner of this mill died a couple of years ago so I was unable to get my question answered. Does my assumption seem reasonable?
Sparky
I doubt it. The first time you sharpen 9/32 bits, they are then ¼ or less. That 32nd is nothing on a circle mill.
I had a dial gauge on a mill that went to 20 inches. When you went past that, you simply added 20 to the dial number. It worked very well, it was easy to see, and I think it was only in 1/4" increments.
The way I did my math was to figure on 2 board increments. That always kept me at 1/4" increments on the scale. If I'm cutting 4/4, every 2 3/4" gave me 2 boards, for example. That gave me the extra 1/8". Just go to where you want to start, and if you're too light, you just pull a board, and you're ready to go. Repetition makes the fractions come easier, and eventually it becomes second nature.
I was up at Citlog yesterday and got a couple of pics of the way the Cleereman handles the problems at the saw with small pieces. First pic is with it closed.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10011/P1010838.JPG)
Second pic is with it open.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10011/P1010839.JPG)
This is designed to have a small cylinder underneath the hinged part, and could be operated from a booth in an automatic mill. The plate is heavy.
Lee, good job on the husk cover.I would bevel the bottom edge away from the saw slightly,that will reduce the tendency for crap to hang there.Don't know the relationship in hight between the top of the knees and the husk cover but I would bevel the boards edge thats twords you,so boards or cants won't catch on it.If theirs a problem with boards catching on the hinges they could be countersunk.As you use your mill you will find little things to change to make it handier for you,and develop your own style. Frank C.
I worked on the carriage scale design a little today. I decided to go with 40 roller chain instead of 60. The 40 is 1/2" pitch so a 72 tooth sprocket will be required to accurately convert the linear motion of the knees to radial motion of the dial pointer on a 36 indicated inch scale. (In a previous post, I indicated that a 36 tooth sprocket would be required for 60 roller chain. That wasn't correct as 60 chain is 3/4" pitch meaning a 48 tooth sprocket would be required there. 80 chain (1" pitch) would use a 36 tooth sprocket). Anyway, I cut the dial diameter to 24" as I believe this will be easily visible from the sawyer's position. I'll use a 24" length of 2 1/4" diameter steel for the counterweight, which will weigh ~ 27 lbs. That should be enough to keep the pointer shaft under tension. The counterweight will slide into 3" sqr x 1/4" wall tubing to keep it from swinging.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/Carriage_Scale_-_face_dial%7E2.jpg)
At the bottom of the main post, there will be a 90 deg bend to allow mounting to the carriage. As per Jeff's design, there will also be a pulley with a cable mounted to the carriage. This cable will be attached to one end of the chain while the counterweight will be attached to the other end. I'm having the vinyl graphic printed tomorrow. Hopefully, I'll be able to fabricate the post and cable/pulley system this weekend. I'll be sure and take plenty of pictures of the progress.
-lee
Looking good!
I think I'd mount your weight tube somehow so the bottom is not covered, or eventually it may fill up with fine sawdust and be a bugger to clean out.
I can't wait to see this in operation. You lost me in math theory long ago, I need to look at it. Great thread Lee, I check it every day. Thanks for sharing.
Quote from: Jeff on December 20, 2012, 09:12:04 PM
Looking good!
I think I'd mount your weight tube somehow so the bottom is not covered, or eventually it may fill up with fine sawdust and be a bugger to clean out.
The bottom of the counterweight tube will be open. I agree that it wouldn't take very long before it would be packed with dust.
-lee
I use to use the gauge on my mill for everything I cut and still do for larger wood . then I went with the set works for 1 inch and 2 inch , I still use the gauge for 4 and 6 inch . when I'm cutting it down to size I take it off one pull at a time or 1 inch so I may get all the usable wood out the log . that's the advantage of the set works don't have to look at anything but the log and give it a pull .
I've always had a setworks to give me those different thicknesses of boards. But, I would always use the gauge to determine where I start at, so I could end on a certain number. Its called inside out sawing by some folks.
A belsaw is one inch per pull but after years ratchet sometines skip a bit due to wear and you dont get full stroke
yea, it may be more accurate to watch the scale , but it sure would be a lot slower . a tooth in the ratchet may or may not fall every time in the same spot , well that will be ok if you wanted it precision put it in a planner .
Guess this why us hillbillies use this critter
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19561/100_1055_%28Custom%29_%282%29.JPG)
Crank moves wheel in and out. Just set pointer to demintion and pull cant to touch wheel. Granted it may not be professional way of doing it. But I don't need my bald spot getting any bigger with all that head sratching ::) ::)
My first circular mill I used the ratchet and pall from an old ground driven manure spreader and a simple aluminum yardstick and pointer.It was very little slower than the factory setworks I use now.My setworks now has three palls stagered slightly so they always grab the ratchet wheel.I like to watch my offbearers wile I'am slabbing and squaring a cant their loafing then I set on the fly and feed the boards fast. Frank C.
The guys on our green chain could never figure out that I could see everything that happened in the mill, even when I was looking the other way. Being in a big glass cube gives you all kinds of reflections. I was facing a blank wall, but I could see everything in almost every direction. I can remember the day I sent a real genius home due to this reflective vision. Apparently the fellow wanted a break. I was looking the opposite way as I was pulling my logs ahead on the log deck, and at the same time I watched him look at me to see if I was looking in his direction, and then take the handle of a large crescent wrench we kept at the end of the saw rollway and stick it in the roller chains, jumping it off the sprocket and stopping all of the off bearing rollers. I grabbed some tools and jumped out of the sawbooth. When I got down there, I just said "Go to the office and tell Ray I told you to go home" He said "WHAT FOR?" I said for sticking that wrench in the rollers in order to break me down" He says, "No Way could you see me do that, you was looking the other way!" Brilliant eh? :) The boss fired him the next morning. We went through a lot of guys on that greenchain.
Jeff
Even tho I love your hat pic reminds me of my Mother in Law :new_year: :D :D :D
Cappy,if she reads this your in a world of poo,and if she looks like that I wouldn't mess with her. Frank C.
:o :) :D :D :D :D :D thats just funny fellas ;)
Jeff I have been looking at that pic thinkn he's got cabin fever gone native or something found himself what looks like a Bloody Koala skun the poor thing and made himself a Hat I Like It though Mate ;) :D :D ;D ;D ;D 8) 8)
Your dead on there ive had plenty of people say to me You Watch EVERYTHING !! :o :o :) :) some people just dont get it that your not just there as a Sawyer you are there to make sure everything goes smoothly ;) when I was younger I was known for being deadly effective and great to get along with but having a very short fuse if i felt people wher not doing the rite thing or neglecting/abusing things which ended up with Meadows 3 Nill and 1 mill manager and 2 lackies Nil i never initiated a fight but i did bloody finnish them :) :) ::) ;) :D :D
I think every mill goes through stackers and labor you gotta look after them pay them well or they find something else to do as it is the lowest paied job in a mill ;)
I have used one of those little air horns at a couple of places where we had a couple of blokes covering one and other so they could wonder of and have smokes between breaks too often or draging the chain ;) another place I would tap the roller on the infeed of the 42" circ Bench/resaw with a spanner a toot or ding ding ding usually let them know I was onto them ;) :D :D I do think it was abit unfair that I was alowed to Smoke on onsite and my saw though and any other labour was not :) Nah I earned that right ;) :D :D
Regards Chris
Lee Im really looking forward to seeing this mill run a log or two Mate ;) If it was me Id just make sure the prawls where rite and it was making good repettive & consistant setts put afew marks on the headblocks for cant starts with the sawn face against the knees or metal ruler and id be off n sawing ;) but your your abit better than me with fitting the dial scale on prior as Id just say ill do that on the weekend or sometime ;) :D :D :D
the Meadows has 6 prawls on the sett side of the setworks and is pretty dang accurate ;) but i do already have the dial scale just have to put the sticker decal on it ;)
Regards Chris
Guys, it's just one of Shrek's hats ;D
I think we finally made some headway on the carriage scale this weekend. I started by machining the counterweight.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04139.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04146.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04150.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04152.JPG)
After the counterweight was finished, I moved on to the scale post.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04158.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04161.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04166.JPG)
Finally, I cut the dial face and assembled the semi-finished product.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04177.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04180.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04190.JPG)
That's all for today. What do you guys think?
-lee
Looks DanGed good to me 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
Speechless as usual :)
I actually am starting to feel a little bit more at home, love to see the chips, very nice work, just thinking, there might be a bit more $$$$ in job shopping than sawmilling,
I'm just thinking it's not fair that you get to have all the cool toys, I mean tools to build this thing :) (that's not to mention the fact I don't have neither the brains nor the skill to use any of them). This has been a lot of fun to watch unfold and you do great work!
I must say Lee you and dad are doing things propper,it should reward you in the years to come.Are you planning to have a simple scale on the clock face or scales to include the kerf and cut.Are you planning on installing a line laser.?? Frank C.
Frank,
I think that I'll go with a simple scale with increments to either 1/4" or 1/8". I've printed both scale faces full size. I like the precision of the 1/8" scale however the 1/4" scale makes for a much 'cleaner' and more easily recognizable scale. Besides, I'm not sure 'precision' and 'circle mill' go together :D.
As for the laser, I'll install one later if I find that I can't pick up on where the saw will hit the log. As suggested, once I start sawing, I may just 'know' where the saw will hit from experience.
My graphics guy has been closed for the holidays. He's supposed to reopen on Wednesday. I guess I have until then to decide on the 1/8" vs 1/4" scale. I sat down last night and added up the expense of the carriage scale. Figuring $1 per pound of steel, $24 for the bearings, $60 for the chain and sprocket, $55 for the cable, end fittings and pulley and $40 for the vinyl graphic... I'll have about $300 in materials for the scale. I'm not sure what a new 'factory built' scale costs but I think I have considerably less in mine ;D
-lee
Lee,myself with my old eyes would go with 1/4" easy to estimate half way between marks.If its too "busy"on the dial it will slow you down.I'am a part time circular sawyer, spend most of my time with the bandsaw,and have found the laser helpfull especially slabing.It may be helpfull starting out to make a chart, cuts plus kerf,so the last board or dimention will work out even.Before long it will be commited to memory. Of course if you cut some dimention and boards from the same log you will need to do the mental math. Frank C.
Quote from: bandmiller2 on January 01, 2013, 08:07:04 AM
Lee,myself with my old eyes would go with 1/4" easy to estimate half way between marks.
Totally agree. :)
1/4" it is gentlemen.
-lee
Still enjoying this thread. Keep up the great work.
I am amazed at the talent that exists on this forum, this project is an ongoing and very interesting journey as well as a great story that is unfolding before our eyes. It has my undivided attention a is a very focused effort to get this mill completed and into its final working condition.
I bet if Lee and his Dad had an opening day get together for the first log over the rebuilt mill they would have sawyers from all over the world showing up to celebrate this event.
Keep up the great work and :new_year:
any updates? how much longer till you can put some logs through it
I, for one, will regret the day that this project is done. Knowing that Lee and his dad have been given a priceless opportunity to work side by side has warmed my heart.
So....in the spirit of celebrating family and such, I am willing to offer up my basket case Corley 395 for the next project for Lee and his dad. I know it will provide countless hours of quality time for them to reflect over the last project and apply lessons learned to my mill.
I see no down side to my generous offer ;D :new_year:
Quote from: Dave_ on January 07, 2013, 11:37:22 AM
I, for one, will regret the day that this project is done. Knowing that Lee and his dad have been given a priceless opportunity to work side by side has warmed my heart.
So....in the spirit of celebrating family and such, I am willing to offer up my basket case Corley 395 for the next project for Lee and his dad. I know it will provide countless hours of quality time for them to reflect over the last project and apply lessons learned to my mill.
I see no down side to my generous offer ;D :new_year:
Dave,
And I bet in the generous spirit of your offer, you're even willing to let them set it up on your property, seeing how you want to help so much and all...
Herb
That just be Dave always thinking about the other fellow :D :D :D :D :snowball: :snowball:
Quote from: Dave_ on January 07, 2013, 11:37:22 AM
I, for one, will regret the day that this project is done. Knowing that Lee and his dad have been given a priceless opportunity to work side by side has warmed my heart.
So....in the spirit of celebrating family and such, I am willing to offer up my basket case Corley 395 for the next project for Lee and his dad. I know it will provide countless hours of quality time for them to reflect over the last project and apply lessons learned to my mill.
I see no down side to my generous offer ;D :new_year:
Dave.....sounds like you have wings and a halo. :) Very thoughtful.
I'm not one to pat myself on the back, but...yeah, I'm pretty much a saint for offering this great opportunity. I could never stand for Lee and his dad getting bogged down with how to trasport my mill. Yes, I will furthermore offer my property to host the rebuild.
In all seriousness, I have had the priviledge to work daily with my dad over this past year and I feel very blessed to have this quality time with him. It really does warm my heart as to Lee and his dad getting to work together. It's one thing to rebuild a pile of rusty iron, but to be able to do it with one you love and respect is a tremendous bonus.
Good on you guys!! :) :)
Wow guys, I've been away too long. It would seem that a road trip for my Dad and I has been planned in my absence. Oregon... here we come! :)
I agree that time with my Dad is indeed priceless. We've learned a lot about building and setting up a circle saw and oddly enough, a lot more about each other. We've always been close however this project has served to bring us closer and is an experience that we both will never forget.
Ok, enough of the introspective reflection stuff... the weather man is calling for clear skies and 70 degrees all weekend :o. Tomorrow, we're going to finish welding and paint the roll frame. Saturday, we're installing it and firing up the DD! I still haven't finished the dust chain system however I think we can manage (at least for now) without one. Production isn't really top on the list just yet... hearing the blade in a log and smelling sawdust is! With any luck, we'll saw our first log on Saturday! There will be plenty of pictures and video if all works out. Now... if only I could think of a plausible reason to skip work tonight... ;D
-lee
Lee, the coffee's always on for you guys if you drop in :)
I'm sure many of us here can relate to where you are with knowing the list of projects that need to get done at some point verses the smell of fresh sawn wood, this mist of moisture on your face, the sight of slice after slice of wooden beauty being revealed. It reminds me of the sculpter who said he just simply cuts away everything that doesn't look like the image in his mind. It's that way with milling. You can guess and try to predict what it will look like when you open it up, but it's still a little like Christmas morning when you open up the first cut.
You are getting very close to Christmas morning!!! 8) 8) 8)
Lee Im looking forward to this theres nothing like doing things like this with your dad Mate ;) ;D ;D 8)
Dad and I have been working together my whole life basicly and he did the same with Pappa my grandfather :) :) sure we have had our run ins with one and other and shared the Highs and lows but I would not trade any of it for the world :) ;) ;D ;D 8)
Also a new scale would have set you back around the $1600 mark for a dial figure scale so you have done good Mate ;) ;D 8)
Regards Chris
The weatherman was a little off today so I decided to work on the carriage scale. The sprocket came in a couple of days ago. This morning I made and attached the tabs that hold the counterweight tube to the main support of the scale assembly then I welded the two pieces together.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04203.JPG)
Once that was finished, I installed the sprocket on the pointer shaft to check for alignment. So far, so good.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04196.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04204.JPG)
Then I machined the pointer shaft to accept the pointer rod and a screw to lock it into place.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04205.JPG)
Finally, I made an adapter which will attach the carriage end of the roller chain to the 3/16" cable. With this assembly, I'll have about 3" of threaded adjustment so I can fine tune the pointer location.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04218.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04222.JPG)
I tested the pointer's operation. The shaft spins smooth as glass and the counterweight slides easily through the tube with no snags or friction. I think this thing is going to work!
With any luck, the weather will cooperate tomorrow and we can set the roll frames into place.
-lee
I do understand the way you've made your counter weight. But you may need to consider some sawdust coming down the tube.
If it does will it clog up the weight function?
Hopefully not, but you may need a clean out at the bottom. In a mill sawdust gets every where.
I think it is strong enough to take a direct blow from a flying knot or broken board but it's the fine things that can build up over time.
Just some of my thoughts on the subject.
And great progress and project.
I too, can't wait to see it working.
Jim Rogers
Jim
See reply #564 for the question/answer. He's got it covered. :)
Can we connect some sort of live sawdust cam for the big day...just kidding :)
Man this whole thread is top notch, and I know there is a ton of folks (def including myself) who have really enjoyed the whole adventure, and learned a bunch in the process.
Best of luck on the initial run
It's getting really close :)
Quote from: beenthere on January 11, 2013, 07:30:36 PM
Jim
See reply #564 for the question/answer. He's got it covered. :)
Thanks, I guess I forgot about that......
Jim Rogers
It still wasn't quite dry enough today to paint so we finished the carriage scale. I added an arm to hold the pulley and finished gluing the assembly together. Here are a few pictures.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04224.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04231.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04225.JPG)
I had to angle the pulley housing slightly to align the pulley with the sprocket. If it weren't aligned, the cable would walk off the pulley. Figuring this compound angle was a little aggravating however a little pencil and paper worked things out. Set as is, the cable is in alignment with the sprocket and the back of the knee.
After I took these pictures, I added some gussets underneath the pulley arm as well as the flat brackets that attach the counterweight tube to the main post. I think the whole thing is stiff enough now to stand up to whatever may fly it's way :)
I'd like to give a HUGE shout out to Jeff, who's idea spawned this beast! smiley_clapping
-lee
We have liftoff!!! (so to speak)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04251.JPG)
I'm so stoked that I don't know how to act! Video tomorrow...
-lee
I have been waiting for this post!!! GOOD DEAL Lee!!!
Cool, real sawdust. 8)
It's ON !!
I am excited and cant wait for the video ..... Congratulations !!
I just had to tinkle,so excited.Got to hand it to you and dad doing it right and waiting until everythings completed. Frank C.
I still have a little work to do Frank. I need to decide on what to do about a log deck. I also need to install the dust chain system. Jeff (and others) were correct... This thing cranks out a ton of dust :o
We sawed two logs today, at a snail's pace. I wanted to make sure everything was going to stay in place before pushing things harder. The saw stands up at rpm and saws very straight. One of the cants ended up being a little out of square but I think that was because of some debris on the carriage. Hopefully, tomorrow I'll be able to saw a square cant :D
-lee
Gday
Lee A big congrats to you and your Dad on your first sawdust with the new to you mill
;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
If itwas me I would just be sawing some 8x8"s and building a crib deck for a start while getting your steel deck built they work well and you can always resaw them Mate ;) ;D
Regards Chris
So glad to see it coming together, Lee. This is the thread that got me hooked on ff. I've really enjoyed watching your progress. Awesome to see it making sawdust !
good looking stuff isn't it
Lee,one log will give you a large wheelbarrel of sawdust [small chunks really] thats why sawyers grow to hate it,if most had their way they would blow it into the next county.Are you planning on a mechanical log turner in the future.?? Frank C.
Quote from: sumday on January 19, 2013, 11:40:30 PM
This is the thread that got me hooked on ff.
This is exactly what I was hoping for! That is, to inspire others to start/complete their projects and/or pile of parts and to bring people together on this great forum!
Frank,
I have a design drawn up for a chain type log turner. I ordered a peavy from Logrite a couple of days ago. I'm still waiting on it to arrive. So far, I've had to turn the logs by hand (note to self: stop turning logs by hand as soon as possible). Anyway, I think I can build a turner for far less than the purchase price of a new one. I already have many of the components and I think I have the fabrication skill and tools to make it happen.
I've got the video camera all charged up and ready to go. I'll have to wait until it warms up a bit so my off bearers will come out of their dens :D. Much like my old Detroit, they're a little slow and grumbly when the temperature's below 40 smiley_argue01
-lee
Congrats Lee!!!
There is nothing like sending the first log through after a long, tedious build. I look forward to how your project continues to progress past this huge mile marker.
Don't forget about your family back here while you make all that sawdust :D
What a day! Where to start?
Dad and I talked about the 'not so square' cant from yesterday and he had the idea to check and see if the headblocks were square to the saw blade. Wouldn't you know it, they were not. I measured what ended up being almost 1 degree of angle from 90. With that, I made two shims to put underneath the rear of the husk which brought the blade into square with the headblocks. I then measured to check if the knees were then parallel to the blade, which they were.
We proceeded to saw up a log. That one turned out great! The cant was square and true, end to end. We cut a second log which ended up out of square. While proceeding, I checked on each turn of the cant to make sure there wasn't any debris underneath. Also, I checked to make sure the cant was tight against the knees. Still, it ended up out of square. We cut a third log which yielded a cant as square as the first one. This has become quite a puzzle.
The cants which were not square were only so on two corners. I suppose I need to put a picture up to help explain things. I'll do that tomorrow. Hopefully we can get this thing worked out.
I know, I know... Where's the video?? We're uploading the camera now. Standby...
-lee
Quote from: SPD748 on January 20, 2013, 08:23:22 AM
Quote from: sumday on January 19, 2013, 11:40:30 PM
This is the thread that got me hooked on ff.
This is exactly what I was hoping for! That is, to inspire others to start/complete their projects and/or pile of parts and to bring people together on this great forum!
Frank,
I have a design drawn up for a chain type log turner. I ordered a peavy from Logrite a couple of days ago. I'm still waiting on it to arrive. So far, I've had to turn the logs by hand (note to self: stop turning logs by hand as soon as possible). Anyway, I think I can build a turner for far less than the purchase price of a new one. I already have many of the components and I think I have the fabrication skill and tools to make it happen.
I've got the video camera all charged up and ready to go. I'll have to wait until it warms up a bit so my off bearers will come out of their dens :D. Much like my old Detroit, they're a little slow and grumbly when the temperature's below 40 smiley_argue01
-lee
Lee: I promise my offbearers (16 and 17 year old son's) lunch and they work in any weather. Making lumber is way easier than making my kind of offbearers :o .
Lee,prehaps theirs tension in the log causing a twist,theres a reason its called rough cut lumber.Be sure your saw is perfectly verticle,put a good machinests level on the arbor shaft.Any fandangling should be done at the headblocks,most of the old mill machinery has provisions for adjustment. Frank C.
The saw can also lean into or out of the log as the carriage passes, causing the cant to be out of square. Also, it is best to check the headblocks for level, and the mandrel for level, as the saw will have a slight lean toward the log side at standstill, the actual amount depends on size of saw and speed for which it is hammered. Hope this will help you out. Having done what you are doing, I can truly appreciate the amount of sweat and blood you have put into this machine!
Alan
Welcome to the Forestry Forum, sumday. :)
Sorry about the wind noise and the shaky camera. I'll take a better video later. I hope this will do for now. Enjoy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBpggEoss6c
-lee
Pretty day, Good company, NICE Mill, Great Video. :)
Very good Lee,yup you need a cant hook,I use a logrite "mill special"a short one is handiest for the sawyer and a longer peavy style for log handling.You have paid your dues and have a good mill to operate.Glad to see you use that poker stick to get trash away from the saw. Frank C.
Yes a mill special and a camera man who isn't afraid to get a little closer. ;D
Great video, looks like you're on your way. :)
Quote from: Mooseherder on January 20, 2013, 09:35:11 PM
...... and a camera man who isn't afraid to get a little closer. ;D
His name is Tripod. :)
8) 8) 8)
So happy for you and your dad. You guys have put in a ton of work to get this thing right. Great video and don't worry about these guys just show the camera man where the zoom button is. ;D
Don't that sawdust smell good?
congrats lee. well deserved!
i think in exchange for such excellent documentation of your project we should all chip in and buy you a logrite cant hook. i know i've gotten more than a few dollars worth of pleasure from this thread. i'll put down $10 if someone else will match me. 8) 8)
This is almost like seeing a newborn for the first time. Congratulations !! smiley_thumbsup
After seeing the great video, I'm more convinced that your platform is too high. ;)
Just looks awkward to be bending over like that while setting the dogs and while turning the log (albeit with a cant hook it will be better turning).
Some on-bearing help at the log deck looks like it would be good too.
You had a good size off-bearer there, who looks like he could handle most anything you threw his way. :)
Didn't see the new gage for the carriage. Just in the background, or not there yet, or just not visible from the camera angle?
Congradulations!!
Good job. The diesel sounds really good. As mentioned, a cant hook will really help in turning logs. It will also save your back.
As you get more experience, you'll be able to lift those dogs on the gig back, and to put them down when you're feeding the log. That will speed up your time. And, I commend you for the use of the push stick when you have something laying at the saw.
Thanks guys! ;D
Frank,
I set the platform height after visiting several mills and taking measurements of what they were running. I bolted the steps on just in case I needed to modify the height. Also, I need to make an extension to go out to the end of the track frame but I'll wait until I'm certain that the height is going to work for me.
That offbearer is Jimmy, a long time friend who is 6'6" and around 250 lbs. He's as big as a moose. He kind of makes my 5'6" Dad look a little short :D. I'm going to have to teach him how to stack. When I was finished sawing, I found quite a mess on his end of the mill. No worries though, we got it all cleaned up.
The carriage scale isn't mounted yet. I had to do some last minute painting so I wanted to let it dry before moving it out of the shop. Hopefully, I can work on that today.
Ron,
I watched, both on video and in person, numerous sawyers reach down and grab things from the husk cover. That always made me nervous and was one of the first things that I took off of my to do list. I pretty sure that I'd rather loose a stick than a finger or worse.
Mikeb,
Thanks for the kind offer! After only a few logs I can fully appreciate the value of a good hook. I've ordered one from Logrite. I'm going to call them today and check on the status of that order. Hopefully, I'll get it this week.
David,
I really need a better camera and a tripod. I was thinking of one of those GoPro models with a few mounting attachments. We'll see.
Ok guys, the sun's up. Time to go to work!
-lee
I was going to suggest a gopro. I don't have one, but I'd really like to get one. :) Looking forward to some close up video. :)
Congrats!
Congratulations!
Like so many others i have followed this tread, and it is very nice to see that you got it running.
Well done!
that's a very impressive project, but it really scares me.
The first husband of one of my uncle's wife was killed by falling into one of those saws, and it makes me cringe everytime you lean toward the carriage (husk?) with your hand on the travel lever. I realize I'm completely ignorant about this, but what about having a deadman switch on the top end of whatever you call that lever that moves the logs back and forth. something like a motorcycle clutch lever that, unless you had it squeezed, the carriage lever would lock in the neutral position?
It might not be workable, but it might save some grief too. :)
Like many others I have followed your project from the start .Man it's great to see it all come together.I'm a pretty good welder but it's hard to match the craftsmanship you and your dad produced,good job. al
Lee,
I like it. The saw looks good and I am certian you will have it sawing every cant square consistently with just a few more tweaks. Great job.
I was wondering if you have considered a throttle control on the operators platform? I have to think it could save you a bunch of fuel and make sawing not quite so noisey for you. I cant remember if you fixed up a governor on the motor or not but the ones I have seen usually had a throttle control that would return to and idle when released. I heard them called a whoopie stick, usually just a cable run to a lever. However I am certian it would be a whole lot fancier than that after seeing what you have done on this fine mill.
You and your dad have certainly made more than a pretty great mill rebuild but lots of memories that will still be there when the mill gets wore out and rusty again.PC
Quote from: paul case on January 21, 2013, 01:13:06 PM
Lee,
I like it. The saw looks good and I am certian you will have it sawing every cant square consistently with just a few more tweaks. Great job.
I was wondering if you have considered a throttle control on the operators platform? I have to think it could save you a bunch of fuel and make sawing not quite so noisey for you. I cant remember if you fixed up a governor on the motor or not but the ones I have seen usually had a throttle control that would return to and idle when released. I heard them called a whoopie stick, usually just a cable run to a lever. However I am certian it would be a whole lot fancier than that after seeing what you have done on this fine mill.
You and your dad have certainly made more than a pretty great mill rebuild but lots of memories that will still be there when the mill gets wore out and rusty again.PC
They could trigger a solenoid from the deadman switch, such that whenever he went to move the carriage, the engine would throttle up, let go and it throttles down.
Edit: hmnn... maybe that's not such a good idea after all... lots of rotating mass there. :-[
wow, sure is easy to come up with ideas when I don't have to do the work. :D
I was waiting for that goverment to kick in. ;D ;D ;D 8) 8)
So far, You and Dad have done an excellent job. Once the roof is over that slab, the engine noise will get much quieter inside. Just put a rain cap on the exhaust when roofing. ;D ;D
I had a 4-71 on my Corley, and, that goverment would get a workout. :D :D
A throttle control on the mill at the operators station is useless. A kill switch yes, throttle no. A circle saw's efficient operation relies on keeping its speed at a constant. You can't be throttling up and down while you are sawing, or between logs. Its just not anything at all like a portable bandsaw.
Thanks for the congrats and kind words guys.
I did a little measuring and figuring today. I found that my carriage is 1/2" lower in the rear than in the front. That measurement has created the 1/2 to 1 degree out of square issue. I'm not sure why it's like this. I set the mill up just as it was before with no changes to the relationship between the carriage and track frame. I also set up the husk just as it was before. Strange that it's out this much. Anyway, there are 1/2" shims between the carriage and it's axle mounting blocks. I think I can remove the front shims and bring it into alignment (I'll also remove the 1/2" shims that I put under the pulley side of the husk yesterday). Doing this will bring the mandrel parallel to the concrete pad and hopefully level.
Dad wasn't feeling well today so I spent the day trying to sort out the alignment issue and making an attempt at planning to manage the workflow on the output side of the mill. I can see now why so much time and effort is put into making the product flow as smoothly as possible with the least amount of energy input. After about 8 hours of completely random thoughts my brain is tired. Hopefully I'll gain clarity on this issue in the coming days.
-lee
Be sure that removal of the headblock spacers still gives you clearance on your mandrel nut. I have no idea on your mill, if that would be an issue, but I know some do have spacers for just that reason.
Looking Good
You cant save en all I done the same not wanting waste anything I cut in to log trying for a 1X4 then flip it to getanother 1X4 hard to get over what you are wasteing ::) ::) I generally dont make a cant once I get flat side down (like L) I cut 1" or 2 what ever your target is then re saw. The real head scratching comes withs getting all you can out of log. But that is one Fine mill
Now fer shady side Long as Cant is heavy enough one dog is enough I have 3 on my Belsaw and till cant gets small seems to be ok
I "respectfully" dissagree with Jeff on the sawyers box throttle.On a handset mill the saw is only in the wood 25 to 30% of the time the rest of the time your loading, turning,dogging,or scratching.I've never run a joystick production mill mayby things are different with them. What you need is a repeteable throttle,idle and governed hammered speed.I use an old time truck emergency brake handle,up is hammered speed down is idle and the knob on the end lets me fine tune the rpm's.The only time I'am at full RPM's is when I am cutting.I also have a remote clutch and let the saw stop when I'am loading logs or helping the offbearer.Its much easier on your nerves and your fuel bill to have the engine loafing when your not in the log.But to each their own. Frank C.
If you are putter sawing by yourself, I suppose that would be a nice feature. If you are production sawing, having to rev the saw up to speed all the time is simply a waste of time. For a younger man it only takes seconds to flip a log and dog it and be into the cut. if you saw with 3 guys the saw should be whistling until you take a break.
Lee,1/2" out of wind is alot prehaps the foundation on the origional setup had settled and they compensated ,or more likely the wheels were remachined and the origional owner never thought or bothered to readjust.What do you have for bearings on your carriage.?? Frank C.
The one I had the most to do with was running an old detroit and the hand throttle control was a big plus. It didnt take 2 seconds for it to get up to speed. I still think it would be a big advantage for you.
Jeff,
I am just putting out my experience. If it was an electric motor, leave it running up to speed all the time, as start up may use more juice than simply letting it run. no guess work on how fast to run if you set a stop where it needs to go so that you can just pull the lever, cable or whatever and let it rip.
PC
I guess I forget sometimes the difference in the way I came up through sawmilling versus most people. For that I apologize.
My experience is from having a sawmill that is the core of a business. Unlike a farm sawmill, where the mill is there in case they need to cut lumber for farm needs. The way you approach the sawing is worlds apart. From the time I was in my teens, it was hammered into me, that a sawmill isn't making money unless the saw is in the wood. Doing anything to slow the sawing process from my perspective is detrimental to the bottom line. My first instinct when you talk about throttling down and waiting for the saw to throttle up, is that doing those two things just took the time away from what you should be doing. Flipping the log dogging it and getting into the next cut. I think Ron mentioned earlier about once you are comfortable in the operation, that getting ready for the next cut process is started before you even stop the gig back. I also believe that a slowly running saw while performing other procedures leads to lackadaisical behavior. Your mind thinks its safer than a saw at speed. Its not.
On this mill there is talk of adding a log turner. Unless that is using an auxiliary power source, you won't be idling the saw down to turn, as you will be needing that full power. In the end I guess there is nothing wrong with having a remote throttle, I just think of it as a non-necessity
I always hated the way the saw flopped around when the mill is at idle. Seems like that would be harder on the saw than having it run at full speed. I've also noticed that when I drive I get worse gas mileage with start and stopping than with driving at a constant speed. Using that as a basis, why throttle back?
where I saw one man band style I have to be able to idle down saw while dealing with slabs and rolling logs to aford the fuel and at high idle speed the wobble goes away on saw. Also beings a clutch system poses a nightmare to enginer on my lash up if something goes South I can kill tractor engine at idle not the best but it does work ::) ::)
IMHO, I think a remote throttle control is very useful on a hobby mill. I have one on my Belsaw which I run by myself. Like CC, I have to load, saw, offbear and stack. I'm not crazy about keeping the engine at full speed when I'm dinking around with non-sawing chores. Just my 2 cents.
For production....a different discussion. Time at idle is money lost and with automatic features like a log turner, etc. there is no reason to idle down. I am a retired cabinet maker and I ran my shop way different than hobby shops. Every step I saved, every machine I didn't need to set up, etc. made me more money. This is why UPS has done time effenciency studies for years. For example, they teach their drivers to shut off the truck engine with one hand while they unbuckle their seatbelt with the other hand because when you do that "X" amount of times per hour, day, year, it adds up to real live money.
When I ran hand mills, I never idled back to roll logs onto the carriage, or to turn the logs. When it came time to load logs on the deck or move lumber, I kicked it out of gear. When I'm not at the saw, I don't want it to be spinning. When I'm at the saw, I want it ready to saw.
Great discussion guys! This has really given me something to think about. I do plan on installing hydraulic features in the future such as a log turner. I'm also set on installing some sort of clutch control and engine kill at the sawyers position.
I had to work today for a few hours. When I came home I noticed a strange looking box at the front door. Upon closer examination I found this:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04279.JPG)
Not only is this a very nice peavy, it also possesses magical powers of healing as my back began feeling better upon drawing this toy tool from it's packaging :). Hopefully I'll be able to put it to use in the coming days, weeks, months and years! As a bonus I think I have Mrs. 748 talked into ordering one of Logrite's Mill Specials to go along with this fine piece of craftsmanship. Now... 24" 30" or 36"... decisions decisions...
-lee
You are ready to rock now. 8)
Quote from: SPD748 on January 22, 2013, 04:24:43 PM
... Hopefully I'll be able to put it to use in the coming days, weeks, months and years! As a bonus I think I have Mrs. 748 talked into ordering one of Logrite's Mill Specials to go along with this fine piece of craftsmanship. Now... 24" 30" or 36"... decisions decisions...
-lee
Perhaps a full matched set, all three sizes...
Looks like you're really about ready to roll up there. It's been a pleasure looking over you shoulder on this build.
Herb
Lee,your a stout lad I'd go for the 24"or mayby 30" too long a cant hook is awkward,besides for the huge stuff you already have a long peavy.For years I used a 24" Dixie cant hook never ran into anything I couldn't flip. Puttermiller2
Quote from: bandmiller2 on January 22, 2013, 08:47:44 PM
Puttermiller2
You can go ahead and take that personal if you wish, it was not meant to isolate you. I've got my way of looking at things from a different perspective, as a professional circle mill sawyer my whole working life. We have several amish mills around here that are pure sawmill. You won't ever see them idle their hand mills down because their end is also production.
I've got a kill switch wired up by the stick but don't see where a throttle would be handy at all. When I'm sawing it's running at speed. It takes time to throttle up and down ;D
Jeff I got a good laugh out of it,you pretty much hit the nail on the head.In fact it should go in our dictionary as a class of sawyer.Peace,love and no grits please. Frank C.
That's great to hear as I didn't mean any offense. :)
Such great work
So happy for ya to see some sawdust
A late congrats :)
SPD748, the mill video looks good. 8)
My initial fascination with sawmilling began with a circle mill up the road from the farm I grew up on. Only your mill looks much nicer, its not the common brown rust color of an old southern circle mill :D. I like hearing the old detroit purr too. Keep up the good work.
Fishpharmer: Go easy on us guys with the popular color of rust brown.
Tom
Here in Western Oregon you would be foolish to paint things any other color ;D ;D ;D
Ok guys,
Tomorrow, we're working on this:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/Mill_Layout_-_Dust_Chain_-_forum_view.jpg)
a pedestal to mount the various items required to operate the dust drag chain. I plan on eventually running the chain with an electric motor to allow safe clean outs however I need to have a dust removal system asap so... I'll install this system for now. I'll make the top plate so that it will accept the motor and gear box in the future. With the parts I have now, the chain speed will be around 175 feet per minute(2.9 feet per second). I'll post pictures of the progress tomorrow night.
-lee
What a thread!
SPD748, you and your father are indeed the envy of a whole lot of folks right now. Great job and many thanks for all of the pictures and explanations. It's taken me a few days to read the entire thread, but certainly well worth it. Heck, I may just go read the thing again.
Once again, thanks again to you and your dad.
Allan
So, I started out making the plates which will allow the pulley height to be adjusted in order to tighten the drive belt. First I drilled, then milled the slots.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04314.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04321.JPG)
Once those were complete, I bored holes in the steel post which will support the drive end of the system. These holes received 1 1/4" x 3/4" DOM tubing, which was welded into place.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04328.JPG)
Next, I made the top plate which will support the pillow block bearings and drive shaft. The four holes near the center of the plate are for a right angle gearbox, should I convert to electric drive in the future. The outer holes are for the pillow blocks.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04324.JPG)
Now, the fun part. Welding the entire assembly together while keeping everything in alignment. I used paper to shim the sliding plates so they would, well, slide :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04334.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04340.JPG)
To finish out the day, I attached the arm which will support the overhead guard. For those that may not know, the drag chain will return over the saw. The guard will prevent the chain from falling onto the saw should it break or otherwise fail. In the second picture, you can see the adjuster (long bolt) that will push the upper section up, tightening the belt.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04346.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04341.JPG)
It will take another day to finish this thing up then it's outside to paint and hopefully install.
-lee
Not much to report today. As I type, we're getting pounded by a line of storms. I spend most of the day fixing a few tin issues on my barn so the wind wouldn't carry it to the next county :). I did manage to machine a 'pulley' for the dust removal system.
As stated before, I want to run the dust chain off the mandrel for the time being. I've seen similar arrangement where a v belt simply runs on the mandrel without the benefit of a pulley. My mill had a large cast iron shaft coupler on the mandrel so I decided to convert that to a pulley of sorts. Here's what I started with:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04349.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04350.JPG)
I cut the coupler in half on the saw.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04352.JPG)
Then I set up the rotary table on the Bridgeport and kicked the head out to 20 degrees. A common v belt has a 40 degree included angle or 20 degrees per side. I machined a 20 degree angle on each half of the coupler.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04353.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04355.JPG)
Here are the halves back on the mandrel.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04358.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04360.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04362.JPG)
Bam! Instant pulley on the cheap! Sorry, it's not much guys. More later...
-lee
Lee: That is the slickest pulley I have ever seen. We've got some blowers for our sawdust and I was wondering how to gat a cheap pulley.
Tom
That pulley is also adjustable,good trick to remember Lee.Somehow overengineered comes to mind when I view your projects. Frank C.
Frank,
I do seem to over engineer everything I do. You're correct about this pulley being adjustable. The shaft coupler has an o.d. of 4.125" with an i.d. of 2.4375". That makes the datum diameter (for a B belt) adjustable from 3.062" on the small end up to 3.75" on the large end. For this particular application, I don't think I'll need any drive speed variance. It could be handy elsewhere though.
Tom,
I didn't really need a pulley to drive my dust chain system. As mentioned, many people simply run a v belt against the mandrel. Because of the relatively low hp requirement and the gear reduction, a chain system doesn't require the maximum power transfer that a pulley generates. My options were to A: run against the mandrel, B: make a pulley (3-4 hours of machine time with my equipment + $50 in materials) or C: convert the coupler that I had (45 minutes of machine time + $0 in materials). As it happened, I had a spare 45 minutes laying around :D.
The previous owner of this mill ran a flat belt on the shaft coupler which operated an open 90 degree gear box above. The output shaft on this box ran the chain. I'm going to run the chain much slower than he did however I'll start with around 10 paddles where he had only 3. I can add paddles if the chain can't keep up with the dust production.
-lee
Here's the math for anyone that may be considering a similar setup.
560 arbor rpm
3.062" driver (pulley on the mandrel)
18.4" driven (pulley on the chain drive shaft)
18.4/3.062 = 6 (gear reduction)
560/6 = 93.3 (chain drive shaft rpm)
#55 harvester chain has a 1.63" pitch
I have a 14 tooth harvester chain sprocket.
14 x 1.63 = 22.82" (chain travel per revolution of the 14 tooth sprocket)
22.82 x 93.3 = 2129.1 (inches of chain travel per minute)
2129.1 / 12 = 177.42 (feet of chain travel per minute)
177.42 / 60 = 2.95 (feet of chain travel per second)
I'll go ahead and admit to it before David logs on and makes the accusation...
YES, I'm a nerd smiley_whacko
-lee
Years ago when my wife and i broke up,she and my son moved south-i talked to him my son after being in the south a few years and he said "Dad,i think the people in the south are a lot smarter"
Well,now i am starting to believe it.....albert
Lee
If I got thru the Math test page :P ::) I think 3 ft per second it is way fast for that type of chain to live very long. A bale loader don't run that fast and they realy rattle.I would try to incorprate in a way to change speed just in case I am correct(for once). Not only are we on oppisite sides of country our fabrication styles are also ;D ;D ;D Seems I will go out of my way to do something backwards :) :)
But sure admire what you and Dad have sone
Brian
what I found moving it slow , I move a screw slow, it will get loaded up but the saw is only cutting about 30 percent of the time and it will unload easily . each lug will carry more if it's running slow and wear is cut significantly .
Brian,
The previous owner of my mill ran the chain at 253 feet per minute or 4.2 feet per second. This figure is based on the gear reduction of the over head open gearbox that came with the mill. I'm looking at about a 30% reduction in speed with my current setup. I found an 8 tooth sprocket which will reduce the chain speed even more if needed. I totally agree with the principle of slower being better for this application.
-lee
Here's a drawing of my idea so far.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/Mill_Layout_-_Dust_Chain%7E1.jpg)
I hope you guys can see/read the image. The jpeg conversion doesn't do so well sometimes.
-lee
that's like most of them I've seen , ought to work nice . there is one exception to that, most are just made out of wood including the posts. nice
This thread bears the honor of making my brain hurt more often any other thread!
Love it though, maybe I will git smarter!
Frank
It has been interesting following the journey, even though about circle sawmills....I know nothing. ;D
With mills theirs theory, theirs calculations, but you don't really know til you try something,use what you have and tweek to perfection after some use. Frank C.
Looking good Lee. Being an engineer....I am a confessing nerd and believe math is my friend!
Dave C
lee, are you sure that you shouldn't apply at nasa or perhaps mit?
just sayin.... :)
Quote from: mikeb1079 on February 08, 2013, 10:01:31 PM
lee, are you sure that you shouldn't apply at nasa or perhaps mit?
just sayin.... :)
Ha. I'm not sure NASA or MIT would have me. :)
-lee
Lee, hats of to you! very nice work! and a great way to make a pulley, I reckon you don't have a lathe? If not, there is always a way to get things done on the mill, nice looking welds too! david
I just noticed that my 'journey' has reached 40,000 views :o Holy smoke! I never thought it would be so popular. I am humbled to know that so many have taken time to follow our progress. My Dad and I are so grateful for the following and the knowledge that we've learned along the way from our fellow forum members.
We finished the drag chain support today. Here are a few pictures of the day's work.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04368.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04370.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04372.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04374.JPG)
... and the top
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04378.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04379.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04380.JPG)
I'm not sure how high the lower idler needs to be so I drilled and tapped a pattern of holes to make the bearings adjustable in height. You can see the hole pattern in this picture
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04382.JPG)
The small tabs that stick out from the lower plate in the first picture are to locate a 1 x 8 white oak board which will (I hope) act as a wear strip between the drag chain and the concrete pad. There are two square plates (one is visible in the third and fourth pictures) that will be a mount for a guard made from lumber. This mount will serve to cover the chain so that it couldn't come into contact with someone that wonders a little too close.
That's all for today guys. Again, thanks for the loyal following and stay tuned for more!
-lee
That looks a little better then my 4x4s and lag screws..lol
Lee, luv the pics and the story behind them. Keep up the good work cann't wait to see more..
I don't think I am going to follow this thread anymore. I had to build myself a welding table today for inside my shop. My welds and craftsmanship are no where in the same vicinity as yours, so you are making me look bad in my own shop and I can't have that. :D
Well,Jake it`s not easy for me to look at his welds either-got to admit his welds are some of the best,i have ever seen....
albert
DanG it Lee your raising the bar too high. Frank C.
I'm glad you found some logs. At least Boiling Springs is really not that far away.
It's all coming together Lee......will not be long now! smiley_chop
748-In Service.
Good evening all,
As David said, I did find a source of logs today. I think it'll be a good start.
While I was out and about, I picked up the dial face for my carriage scale. I kind of let the cat out of the bag to David the other day. I also had to let Jeff in on the secret as I needed his permission to use the Forestry Forum's logo.
As stated in a previous post, my mill belonged to a very good friend of both my Dad and I, J.O. Gettys. Sadly, J.O. passed in 2011. From the very beginning, I knew that I had to do everything possible to make this mill shine! I struggled for some time on how to dedicate the mill back to his memory as well as thank all of you guys for the inspiration you've provided along the way. Here's what I came up with. I hope you guys approve.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04388.JPG)
I'm sorry that there wasn't enough room for every member's name as I have gotten so much information from each of you both directly and indirectly. I'm going to cut the mounting holes in the vinyl and put a couple of coats of clear over the entire thing before mounting it on the carriage. My Dad hasn't seen it yet. I'm hoping to get it finished and mounted before he comes over again.
-lee
That's awesome. :)
I finally got my name on something other than a search warrant. :D
That's very humbling Lee. As if your Dad is not proud of you already....this will put icing on his cake.
I know it does mine. Your journey has been and still is at the top of my list. Good-Luck!
J.O. sees it now......I really believe that.
Thanks Buddy. :) smiley_thumbsup
I'am honored Lee.That was a good jesture for your old friend too.I hope this story will continue, may even be a best seller. Frank C.
Now I have been hurt twice since I was left out. :D :D :D
All jokes aside that is a great tribute to you, the forum, and your family. 8) 8) 8)
Thanx a million Lee! Didnt think I was doing that much to deserve my name on your mill. Now I feel important 8)
I'm glad you guys approve. A special thanks goes out to Jeff for sending me a high res image of the logo! I think it will look great on the mill.
I have a cold today so I'm cooped up in the house :(. With nothing else to do I started thinking...
My edger is an older Miner with 14" insert tooth saws. The arbor is 1 15/16" (1.9375") which is worn to 1.915" in the center. I have a length of 1144 shaft that I'll make a new arbor from. I'll also need a new movable saw collar as the one I have is worn as well. The question occurred to me; Should I replace the insert tooth saws with strobe saws or go back with the inserts? If its going to be inserts, should I run carbide or steel bits?
I suppose the question is: Are strobe saws better than insert tooth saws?
-lee
Ok, cold or not this is just to cool to pass up.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04407.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04419.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04416.JPG)
I know that for my fellow members up north, this is normal however around these parts 1" of snow is a show stopper! :snowfight1:
-lee
It's coming this way Lee. 8) Good day for a cold. ;D Who wants to work a wreck in snow? :D
It's here also , not sticking at the house , about a couple of inches at the mill which is 25 miles south . it's been snowing all day and it was so beautiful yesterday . Oh well, that's February in Va.
sunshine and in the 60's today, strong north winds though. was 37 this morning.
HA! bout time ya got some of the white stuff! lol
Nice pic. if you made it in black and white it would look 50 years old or older.
On your edger blades question. I have only run the split strobe saws on the 3 edgers that I have but I like them. I have no experience with inserted teeth.
man the suspense is killing me, I was told to look this thread up, i did, and in a couple of days i had read all 35 pages. Now i am just waiting on The Rest of the Story... good job so far and my hat is off to all of you...
I've been a little side tracked the past few days. I finally had a little time to work on the mill today. I think that I've solved the misalignment issue. I removed the shims from the front of the carriage and measured everything again. The headblocks are now square with the blade and the mandrel is level. After moving things around to align the carriage, I managed to remove the lead from the saw. I'll have to reset that to 1/16" then saw a log and see what happens.
I also mounted the chain, cable and counterweight for the carriage scale. I'm waiting on the dial to be clear coated, which should be done by Wednesday.
On the edger topic, I think that I'll install carbide bits in the existing saws and run with it. I'm going to make a new set of feed rolls as the original ones are a bit worn in the center. I'm also going to make a new mandrel while I'm at it. That should tighten the edger up for another 30 years.
-lee
Piter Pater Lee lets get at er Lee! Im itchin to see my name go for a ride on the carridge! lol
I just wanted to say how absolutely awesome this project is. I was supposed to be building furniture in the shop today, when I stumbled upon this thread doing a search for circle mill. I'm learning what I can to start a similar project, and all I can say is....."WOW!"
I spent the entire Saturday afternoon reading this thread from front to back, and I will be referring to it again.......very inspiring.
WW9
WW9,
I'm glad you've found a measure of inspiration in my journey! I hope many more find the same.
I got to saw a little today. After setting the lead to 1/16" I cut a decent 14" dia pine log to a 10" cant. I checked all four sides with a framing square. Much to my delight, it was square! I then proceeded to take 1" boards off the cant. I followed up with two more logs ending with a nice stack of pine boards destined for the inside walls of my firewood shed. Tomorrow, we're going to saw a little more pine and some white oak. I'll add some pictures then.
Oh, and by the way, this...
materhead
... is awesome!
-lee
Ok, so I tried my hand at some white oak today. Suffice to say, it didn't go well. I cut up one log and noticed that every board was a different thickness end to end and compared to each other. The log must have had a lot of stress in it as it bowed over 2" while cutting. I tried squaring it back up with no success. I noticed that after each cut, there seemed to be a lot of saw dust stuck to the face of the cant. The pine that I've been cutting hasn't done this. After the one log, I shut her down :(.
-lee
I don't know Lee.......but I'm glad you're getting in a little saw time. smiley_thumbsup
Quote from: SPD748 on March 10, 2013, 03:16:37 PM
Ok, so I tried my hand at some white oak today. Suffice to say, it didn't go well. I cut up one log and noticed that every board was a different thickness end to end and compared to each other. The log must have had a lot of stress in it as it bowed over 2" while cutting. I tried squaring it back up with no success. I noticed that after each cut, there seemed to be a lot of saw dust stuck to the face of the cant. The pine that I've been cutting hasn't done this. After the one log, I shut her down :(.
-lee
Lee, the odd spruce I cut is like that, dont know if its just frozen or what but it drives a fella nuts..lol I do know that I dont have winter shanks on so it might not be cleaning the sawdust out and pulls on the blade. Dont worry about getting every log perfect 8)
Lee,log tension is fustrating,it helps sometimes to keep turning the log,sometimes it doesn't.This is somewhat controversal but if you can set the oak logs aside for several months or more you will find them more stable but a little harder to cut.Bet you noticed oak kicks up your power requirement a notch or two. Frank C.
Bandmiller2 and I have a serious disagreement about aging oak logs. I consider it malarkey. Any given White oak can be potentially tough to saw, and having them sit around makes it only worse.
Now your lesson begin. Learning how to saw oak.
Sometimes you can only take one cut on one face and then you have to roll the log 180° and take only one cut off the other side to equally release the stress.
Good luck and keep trying....
Jim Rogers
As I understand it, growth stresses in the tree/log are likely what you are seeing being relieved and released when sawing the log.
They be different from drying stresses created when moisture content decreasing below about 30% which causes the wood to shrink across the grain.
So I agree that just letting a log sit around doesn't relieve the growth stresses, and over time may create the drying stresses.
Additional years and layers of growth rings are under more and more tension, setting up the possibility that the removal of surface boards will peel away from the log. Relieve one side, then better relieve the other opposite side as well to avoid compounding the problem.
It seens it is the nature of the beast in some, but not all trees.
Lee: Cutting oak is like arguing with a female. There are two theories and neither one works. When we cut oak if it comes out good we smile, if it dosen't we say it must have been a female tree.
Bandmiller: I have heard some say that oak requires more power but we seem to use the same for pine or oak. The ole' 3-71 grunts the same either way.
Not sure if this makes any sense, nothing very scientific, but I have noticed for years that the dia./log length ratio is a large factor in this bowing, stress related issue as well. And at the risk of bringing up the idea of cutting logs smaller than 8", these will often times behave poorly, as will the upper logs of a tree, just my experience. Logs that sit for a spell, will cut bout the same as fresh in regards to any reaction, they are just more likely to be tougher to saw, depending on the species.
If you pull a board that has a difference in thickness from end to end, your saw has walked in or out for you. If your saw cuts a straight line on the next cut, it will cause the board to have a different thickness from end to end. You need to take a shim cut to level off the face.
Caking on the log face tells me that you're probably cutting out on your cut. Your sawdust is fine, your feed is slow, the dust is spilling from the gullets and your saw is probably heating up.
I've had these problems on logs, and sometimes they're really hard to figure out. Is it the log or is it the something that's in the mill? The saw must be sharp. Often that will fix the problem. I don't think you have a roof over your saw. You would be surprised what a little sunshine will do to a circle blade. Readjustment of the saw guides can also help. You may have to tighten the board side of the guides toward the blade. Maybe your lead isn't adjusted quite right. Pine is very forgiving of these problems. Oak isn't.
If you saw, then turn, you'll have to take a shim cut when you come back to that face again. You need that to straighten out your face. There are times that it is the log. Beech always caused me some problems. I also run into problems with white oak. Even the time of year gave problems. If you have some partially frozen wood, that would also create problems.
The sawyer's job is to figure out what caused the problem and how to solve it. Its part of the challenge.
Well, if the wood is stressed, give it Prozac ;D
Seriously, the guy who cuts my wood usualy, says that stressed wood, beyond may be 1/2" of movement after à cut, belongs to the firewood pile.
Question for sawyers in cabs with high speed mills,how can you tell when theirs stress and a bow in the log or cant.?? The carriage seems to go by 20 mph and the log gets flipped and recut in an instant. Frank C.
I constantly watch my saw. I sit over top of the arbor, so I can get a good view the saw while its in the cut.
Most times the dogs will keep the log pulled in, so the bow isn't as noticeable. I've had cants that I've split, where the dog cant will practically jump off the carriage when the dogs are released. Ash is good for that.
Another thing to watch are the boards that are coming off the saw. If they're like rocking chair bottoms, then you know you have stress in the log. Sometimes boards will split, as they come off the saw. You want to watch the boards as they come off, as they tell you what the face looks like on the log. You can also see any problems you're having in the board you just cut.
Ron,
Everything that you described is exactly what happened. The dust was very fine and sticking to the face of the cant. When I would reverse the carriage, the blade (bits) would scrape the face of the cant, taking additional material off. On one return run, the scraping noise was very loud. As the boards would come off the saw, they would immediately bow away from the cant face. Some looked like the rocking chair bottoms that you described.
My lead is currently set at 1/16". I know that each saw will require a different lead. Should I increase it to 1/8" and try again?
I can show you guys how to fabricate almost anything but, at this point in my journey, I'm a little lost as to how to proceed.
-lee
Quote from: bandmiller2 on March 11, 2013, 07:06:20 AM
Question for sawyers in cabs with high speed mills,how can you tell when theirs stress and a bow in the log or cant.?? The carriage seems to go by 20 mph and the log gets flipped and recut in an instant. Frank C.
Our view is far better than you may think. We get to see the entire log and every face. Just because we are operating from a cab and sawing faster doesn't mean we can't see or experience the things a sawyer standing without the glass does. In fact we probably see much more.
Having the lead off would not cause the boards to bow, only stress will do that. I'd say don't mess with the lead until there is something that is telling you the lead is off. The bowed boards are not that thing
What's happening is that the log is bowing out from the headblocks. After the board is sawn, you are rubbing on the gig back because of the bow. The log is hitting the saw. Nothing in lead will correct that. The rubbing heats up the saw, and that compounds the problem. With an automatic mill, you can pull the headblocks back before you gig back and you don't rub the saw.
Sharpness has always helped me. It doesn't reduce the bowing, but things seem to cut better. But, you have to turn the log, or the bowing will just get worse. When you come to that cut side, you'll have to shim cut to straighten it out.
It makes it harder on a handmill, since you're just using the mechanical dogs to hold the log. There's so much tension in some logs that I've seen them pull away from the headblocks even with the hydraulics. Some logs you just can't seem to saw.
Gday
everyones spot on its tension alrite ;) here we have to deal with alot of it have to build mills just to deal with it thats whay alot of the larger hardwood mills use Linebar cariages and resaws to deal with it some logs can get 8 or more inches of bow the line bars are on the offside of the carriage and are roughly 20' long built into the log deck and have sizing controls you have hyd back preassure on the headblocks and float and sometimes a backstand mode for use as a normal carriage
the linebar acts like a long gauge you can either dog n push the whole log strait out you can chase the bow by backing of and applying preassure to heach head as it moves the log through the saw :)
its also the reason alot of the finnish mills like Laimet and Kara Saws with gauge n hob systems are popular here as you can saw both hardwood or pine on the same mill but they are not as productive as the American mills in pine for the same money and alot of American Backstand sizing mills are used in dedicated pine mills or sawing short hardwood logs <10 or 12' long every now n then and you can only usually pull 1" boards then turn after each cut :) :)
Regards Chris
Thanks guys!
It looks like plan B is in order. I'll sharpen the saw and try another log.
I noticed that the log in question had a crack through the pith which seemed to run from end to end. I turned the log, indexing the crack parallel with the ground on the large end. I then had a look at the small end. The crack there was also parallel with the ground. The log itself was 12' in length and around 12" on the small end. Would this crack be an indication of stress within the log?
Frank was correct. I noticed that my old 71 barked a little louder on the oak than with the pine. :)
-lee
If you look close, all logs will heart check to some extent. Orienting the heart check really depends, in my opinion, on what you are after. Sawing grade in hardwoods, I might put it on a 45°, depending on what other defects I may see. Sawing grade I would size up the defects, then try to find a way to minimize them when orienting the logs initial position.
I've always tried to put the heartcheck at 45°. I then try to contain it in the blocking.
Some of those checks become splits, especially in a log with tension and left to dry. I've sawn hickory with a 4 way split on the end. Loads of fun.
I personnally think that a 1/8 of a inch is to much lead, I always set mine at a 1/64 I was running a 54 inch on the bottom and a 48 on top. Just a added opinion ;D.
All depends on the saw. I never had one that would run with just 1/64 without scraping, but I've had them where it took over an 1/8 Norm is usually around 1/32 to 3/32
I had one that needed 3/8" of lead. You put in the lead you need.
Guys, daft question, your cariages don't "back out" of the cut when returning.
Well, we don't have circular mills much anymore in France. But the cariage of vertical band mills, backs out of the cut line, by means of few levers, on the return trip on the return stroke.
On the following pic, you can see the two flanged wheel, and lever, with the cable going through, when on the return stroke, that cable pulls the lever, which in turn pulls the whole cariage, dogs and everything backwards, so the saw blade doesn't touch the wood anymore.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19153/sawmill5.jpg)
It astonishes me that this doesn't seem to exist on a circle mill. Tho, i don't know much about thoses. I have never seen one in person, thought. so i don't know.
Satamax
On a circular mill set up right, there is no reason to "back out" with the carriage.
Just sometimes when a cut is made and the carriage doesn't hold tight, then the stress in the log suggests moving back rather than scraping/rubbing on the gig back. Saves heating up the saw.
Your methods used to "back out" on the return are fine if you can get back in alignment for the next cut.
If the log/cant will be flipped anyway, then it wouldn't be a concern.
I have seen some back outs on the verticle band mills, and this makes a lil sense, most circle mills just fuzz the cant on the return,
Ron, do the silvatech controls allow for a backoff and then return to cut? Anytime I was not going to take another cut on a side, I'd back off, but then again I had bottom dog turners and would be turning the log before it got back to the chain log turner position, and then, I'd usually use that to simply bump the log against the knees dog and be gone again.
Sure, there are 2 memory switches that would come back to the same spot. I never used them for that, but had my memories used as stacks for my cutting patterns. Silvatech is really old technology. I believe the copyright was somewhere about 1989. There are much better units out there right now, and it probably wouldn't be that hard to program something. Heck, we even were working on making our mill run hands free. You programmed in where you wanted the mill to start and stop, set, and return, just by pressing a button. It even controlled the speed. This new technology could do anything you wanted to, you just have to ask the right questions of the right people.
Besides, that technology was out there on some of the rigs back in the '80s. I remember talk about it, but never actually saw the mills. I'm pretty sure they had it for band rigs. But, many of the band rigs back then were double cuts, so you were cutting coming and going.
The only thing that would concern me is the amount of miscuts you could get. You pull your headblocks back and the log could roll or a dog pulls out and pulls the log into the saw.
I have no advice for a circle mill but I was cutting a 40' log today and the cant looked good but the board would split 18' up into the cant. Might have been a little stress in there. It was white oak.
I found this post last night as i was tryimg to research bringing an old saw mill back to life. I have to say WOW, I stayed up til around 3 this morning reading all 38 pages. This inspired me in a way and in a way drifted me away for i dont have the resources to be anything even close to this. I found and old saw mill laying over the hill, hasnt been used in years, but the guy priced it so cheap it would be hard to turn down. But i have to say i am amazed at the work put into this, and i gained alot of knowledge just last night for i have never been around any saw mills, but i am VERY interested. Good Job man, I dont even know you and i am proud of you.
Strunk57, welcome to the Forestry Forum. There have been quite a number of threads on restoring circle mills lately. This thread has been a great one. Try the search feature at the top of the page for others. Tell us a little about your sawmilling interests. I understand about resources but if you want it you will find a way. The bite of the sawmill bug never heals :D
KTF
Welcome to the forum Strunk57. U cao gain a lot of world of knowledge from the members here trust me I have.
No need to drift away Strunk. This mill restoration has been the pinnacle of attention to detail, akin to a work of art. I am at the other end of the spectrum - drug the old mill out of the weeds, put it together how I imagined it might work, eyeballed the track so it didn't look so much like a snake, hooked the pto to the tractor and sawed a log. When all the bark was off I called it lumber and built this
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12371/DSCN1825.JPG)
I also admire lee's work tremendously and have enjoyed the journey even though it's a path I could not travel myself.
I'm still looking forward to seeing the scale in action. ;) :) 8)
As luck would have it Jeff, I picked up the dial from my paint guy today. I ran out of daylight to install it however, if the weather cooperates, I'll be bolting your creation on tomorrow. Pictures to follow...
-lee
Jeff we need to get a smiley that is dancing foot to foot in anticipation. When he gets it all up and running I might have to take a harley ride up that way to see it in action.
smile_banjoman
Sorry about the ridiculous delay guys. As the weather warms up, unfortunately so does the crime rate. I haven't been able to work on the mill for a couple of days. Here's the progress so far: I got the dial mounted and adjusted. Much to my delight, it works flawlessly! The pointer moves smoothly with no jerking or shuddering, even while the carriage is moving. I've even had a few requests to build a scale for other mills. Tomorrow (hopefully) I have some help lined up to work on the dust chain system. I need to fabricate the ramp that will carry the dust away from the concrete pad. I called my steel supplier who says they have the materials that I need in stock. If all goes well, I'll be there at 8 am to load up. My goal is to finish fabricating the dust system and get it all painted tomorrow. If the rain holds off (and the paint dries) I can install it on Thursday. Who knows, I may even throw up a picture or two :)
-lee
You ate the pictures?? ;)
Quote from: Jeff on April 09, 2013, 12:32:43 PM
You ate the pictures?? ;)
Hahaha :D :D :D :D :D :D
Quote from: Jeff on April 09, 2013, 12:32:43 PM
You ate the pictures?? ;)
Well, yeah but only because Poston wouldn't share any of his GRITS! :D
-lee
Ifn I understand what they be made out of understand why my ancestors crossed country in covered wagons :P :P :P :P
Lee, get Tripp to semd you pics of his dust chute. It walks left to right so as to evenly spread dust in his trailer!
Frank
Today's progress:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04436.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04431.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04451.JPG)
We got the dust chute fabricated and painted. I ran out of daylight so the installation will have to wait until another day. It's about 8" wide and 5" deep. I think it will work. It's angled at 30 deg so it will be about 10' high at the output end.
I also took a few pictures of the carriage scale.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04443.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04440.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04444.JPG)
I took the pointer off and painted it red. Hopefully that will make it a little easier to see. Again, many thanks to Jeff for the scale's design inspiration and a big thanks to all the forum members whom have encouraged me along the way!
Don't worry guys. The journey isn't quite over yet. Stay tuned!
-lee
The scale is a wonderful tribute to the individuals in particular and to the Forestry Forum in general. smiley_thumbsup
My last chance at immortality. Frank C.
Looking good 8) 8) 8) It's about time for the old girl to saw herself a house :) :)
I figured this petty weather would get you back to the mill. But you got some BAD storms coming tonight.
Nice job Lee. :)
What is the reason for the angle iron bolted to the top of the head block knees?
Quote from: Don_Papenburg on April 11, 2013, 10:35:14 PM
What is the reason for the angle iron bolted to the top of the head block knees?
JO told me once that he added the angle iron to "hold the knees together." Being that he added it, I left it.
-lee
I've seen it done a few times. Most automated mills tie the knees together to carry oil or electrical components. They do help stiffen the knees side to side and help take out movement if there is any wear when gigging back and forth. I think its good to have it on there. The last mill I ran, the member was actually a hydraulic oil conduit. It gave the dogs a larger reservoir than what would just be in the lines. More oil volume at the dogs
Looking good Lee!
Ooo... FedEx stopped by!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04455.JPG)
Thanks Logrite!
-lee
All sorts of new toys.
Pretty Pretty Blue. :)
It's been almost a year since you posted the picture of the belt lacer, but I have one just like it, and I think the data plate is still on it. Let me know if you still need information on it. I scanned through this entire post, so I might have missed some information. In reference to your dust chain, I run the square link detachable chain at my mill. I noticed that your chain is positioned to one side of the blade. I run mine in the center, and the dust cascades to the chain. This might not be an option since your saw is so close to your pad. My chain also returns under the blade, with the return running about 8-10 inches from the blade. There have been occasions where the chain has jumped into the blade, but no major damage has ever occurred. A chipped corner off of a tooth at most.
Watching your posts, and seeing your attention to detail might just drive you crazy when you get a saw that doesn't run well! :D Amazing fabrication! I wish I could be doing this as a hobby, instead of a living! Keep up the good work!
4thgen,
Thanks for the complements. My plan is to collect a few old items, tools and such, and display them in a curio cabinet. The cabinet belonged to my sister and was given to me after she was killed. I figure that I'll fill what, to me, is a very meaningful cabinet with some very meaningful items.
As for the chain, you are correct. I don't think I have room to safely run it directly beneath the blade. As it is, it will run 20" ahead of the lower tangent of the blade. Hopefully, this will take enough of the dust away. We'll see.
Now, that 'attention to detail' thing. Again, you are correct. When I experienced my first 'not so friendly' log, I became frustrated in a hurry. As a toolmaker, I'm used to adjusting a work piece to a precise point then sending it through a cutter, with a calculated outcome. I quickly found that wood does not behave like other materials :D. Once again, I had my Dad there to remind me that, "You're not making Swiss watches." Oh, he also reminded me that, "It's wood son, learn to deal with it." Somehow, he's always been able to set me straight though, years ago, it was less words and more belt dadgum you, Charlie! Hey... it worked!
-lee
I'll try to remember to take some pics this week of the dust drag we put in on a circle mill. I don't think I have more than 8" of clearance. Ours was fabricated from the chain off a silage wagon. Its wide. It has a chain on 2 sides, and there are metal paddles in the middle.
We're not pulling an angle to have it go overhead, so maybe that's the difference. It feeds back into a barn sweep.
The single chains I have run, I put one chain under the saw, and ran the return overhead. There was no need for a chute, as the sawdust makes it own chute.
Machining a log is a bit different from machining metal. You don't have the same consistency of material all the way through like you do with metal. And, each one is different.
This is my set up
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29162/002%7E28.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29162/003%7E24.JPG)
Dad came over today and helped set part of the dust system into place. Nothing is mounted yet but it's a start.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04457.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04458.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04459.JPG)
Man, that thing is heavy smiley_sweat_drop
-lee
Yesterday's progress complete with a little oops.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04463%7E0.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04465.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04466.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04467.JPG)
The chain works great! I don't have a belt yet so I turned it by hand. The paddles take the dust out and up the chute just fine. We may have to make some final adjustments to the chain length after the drive belt is installed. I put a white oak board on the concrete to prevent the paddles from wearing prematurely. Everything was going great until my Dad noticed this:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04468%7E0.JPG)
The carriage scale isn't going to clear the overhead chain guard. :embarassed: :embarassed: :embarassed: It looks like I didn't think quite far enough ahead. I'll have to shorten the carriage post by 14" in order for it to clear the guard. Oh well, I suppose a snag or two isn't all that bad. Today, we're going to remove the scale and finish up the chain system.
-lee
Here's the dust drag at one mill:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10011/P1020044.JPG)
This is off a silage wagon. They run a vertical edger, so the extra width is helpful. The drawback is if a chunk of wood gets into it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10011/P1020043.JPG)
This shows how little clearance we had to work with. I've run a single width chain with paddles in a narrow clearance situation. To get the incline, I had to use another sprocket.
Your's looks good. Most that I've run have had more paddles. I guess it depends on the speed you're planning to go.
Gday
Your going realy well Mate ;) ;D I would just raise the backend of the return trough upto where it clears the scale Mate ;)
Regards Chris
Lee, if thats the only opps you had on your mill your doing good!
Your chain looks good but You might end up getting some bark caught up in your pulleyat the discharge end. You might want to have a ladder handy to remove caught up bark once in a while... That happens to me so I thought I would pass it on
Quote from: lyle niemi on April 21, 2013, 12:37:45 PM
Lee, if thats the only opps you had on your mill your doing good!
Your chain looks good but You might end up getting some bark caught up in your pulleyat the discharge end. You might want to have a ladder handy to remove caught up bark once in a while... That happens to me so I thought I would pass it on
I forgot to mention,
Dont have your drive belt to tight, allow for a little slip if something does get caught up, it doesnt take much tension to move the chain
how about an update ? I know the weather has not been cooperative for weekend projects. hope everything is going okay
virgil
I'm sorry for the long delay guys. Things around the office have been chaotic lately. I've only had a day or two here and there to work on the mill.
The chain system works as expected. I'm still experimenting with baffles in an effort to direct more of the dust onto the chain. The major problem at this point is that dust builds up underneath the gear that drives the cable drum shaft. This gear picks up the dust which gets packed into the teeth causing it to bind against the smaller driver gear. My next step is to fabricate a guard which will prevent the dust from settling under the gear system.
I'm definitely going to convert the chain drive to electric. This way, I'll be able to shut the mill down while leaving the chain running and rake the dust onto the chain without the fear of contacting the blade. As it stands, I can saw ~1mbf before having to shut down and clean the area underneath the gear assembly. I can saw much more before the dust builds up underneath the blade and needs clearing. For the moment, I'm simply raking that dust (engine off of course) onto the chain at the end of the day. Upon the next start up, the chain drags most of that away. Not being set up (or desiring to be) for maximum production, having to spend 15 to 20 minutes per day attending to the dust issue isn't all that bad. I think an electric motor on the chain would speed things up a bit.
-lee
Would more paddles help move the dust quicker? Wouldn't that get rid of the build up?
Ron,
The paddles I have work great. The chain digs a trough through the dust to the white oak board I have as a wear strip on the concrete. There is so little clearance that directing the dust to the chain is proving to be a challenge. In other words, it's not an issue of the chain being able to keep up with the dust production, it's an issue of being able to direct the dust onto the chain. As previously suggested, at pit would solve most if not all of my problems. I'll take a video the next time I saw so you guys can see what I'm talking about.
-lee
My Dad and I discussed this issue the other day. If I had it all to do over again, I would have formed a pit in the concrete slab at the time it was poured. By the time we realized a pit would have solved many issues, we had most of the mill set up.
If the dust issue becomes to much of a nuisance, a blower may be in order.
-lee
How thick is your concrete pad Lee?
David,
The pad is around 6" underneath the husk.
I could remove the center section of the mill frame along with the husk and cut the pad however I think for the effort involved, and the fact that the pad would be weakened by the cut, a blower would be the better option.
Honestly, the dust at this point isn't that big of a deal. I think a blower would be necessary only if at some point I started sawing for maximum production. So far, the baffles that I've installed are helping. I've been tweaking those along the way. Once the guard is on the gear assembly, I think things will go much smoother.
-lee
As I say hindsight is 20/20 and I need to build or set up two so I know how to do it better. ;D
Don't worry I have run alot rougher setups than yours over the years Mate ;) :D ;D ;D ;D 8)
Lee,I haven't seen your dust setup in operation but let sawdust build up and form channels before you condemn it.Most of the time the dust will build its own baffles and chutes.If your not satisfied then go to a blower you've got the power and noise shouldn't be a problem. Frank C.
Hello again guys! I guess it's time to revive the 'journey'.
I've added a few baffles to the mill to help with the dust issue. Here are some pictures.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04499.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04502.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04504.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04505.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04509.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04512.JPG)
In the pictures, you can see the steel plate (baffle) that I added around the cable drum shaft. This plate keeps the dust away from the gears that drive the shaft. The whole chain system works much better now. I still want to convert the drive to electric. That will have to wait until another day :)
-lee
I'm glad you posted those pictures of the drum cable.
I was talking to my brother today and trying to explain where it was in relation to the deck and track bed on our lane project. Now I can show him your picture. :)
Lee,it appears your chain is not keeping up with the volume of sawdust,prehaps wider paddles or faster chain speed would help.Had to chuckle when you mention baffles as I have spent much time studying sawdust movement and how to control it. Frank C.
Frank,
Those pictures were taken after a couple days of rain. Some of the dust settled into the 'furrow' that the chain makes. I'll take some more and perhaps a video the next time I saw. The system as a whole isn't perfect however it works better now with the baffles in place.
-lee
I suppose it's time to bring this old thread back from the grave help_me
I cut a little Virginia Pine and Cedar today to test out the results of my Dexter File Guide. I discovered a problem with the angle of the bits. I think a little more time with the guide and a sharp file will fix that easy enough.
I thought I'd post up some pictures of my current dust situation. In the first picture you can see how the dust settles underneath and around the saw itself. You can also see the trough made by the dust chain.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/Dust_1.jpg)
In this picture, you can see the trough.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/Dust_3.jpg)
Here you can see how bits of bark and such gather directly underneath the saw. I really watch this area and try to keep it clean so that the saw doesn't pick those up and send them toward the tail man. I left it cluttered on purpose so you guys could see how it collects.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/Dust_4.jpg)
Finally, here you can see how dust piles up behind the saw for some reason. I'm not really sure why or how it gets there smiley_headscratch
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/Dust_5.jpg)
Anyway, I knew this would be an issue some time ago. A pit would have solved most if not all of this problem. As soon as I'm able, I'll convert the dust chain to an electric motor (as mentioned before) to allow a safe 'clean out' of the husk area. I haven't ruled out a dust blower in the future. For now, I'll saw with what I have :)
-lee
Am wondering if there is room to have a sweeping arm (paddle) that reciprocates beneath the saw blade flat to the pad, like a windshield wiper blade.
Slowly sweeping in about a 90° arc to push the buildup of debris over to the chain.
Positioning of the pivot point would be critical and a pitman arm to move it might be a possibility.
Actually, that is how most mills look. The dust coming from behind the saw is from the cyclone action of all the air that is swirling beneath the saw. The worst thing that could happen is if a piece of wood got under your saw. That would happen if you had a branch or piece of loose wood fall off while your sawing. You might see them if they leave some wood on the end of a log that's been partially cut off. Very dangerous from a sawyer perspective, as those pieces will go flying.
You could box the area in, but that material has to go somewhere. If it isn't settling around the saw, its going to come flying up off the back end. A piece of metal angled down towards the trough might help with the small bits of bark. No system is 100%.
Ron nailed it, no sawdust system is 100% but your not far from a good workable system. Lee your right, I think electric driven sawdust chain would be a big improvement. Perhaps running the drag chain a little faster. With the electric drag you can declutch the engine when your log handling, especially if you have the clutch linkage in the sawyers box, makes working around a little safer and quieter if you also have a remote throttle.
Wet sawdust is sticky from the moisture in the logs. It won't flow like dry sawdust. Eventually everything in the pit will have a skin of sawdust.
An active "Barn Cleaner" device might just work. Nothing will beat a deep pit and centering that dust chain under the saw, even putting a blower in there will need LOTS of room. You will also need a "grill" over the opening of the blower, or, chunks of wood, "Knots", will break the fins on the blower fan. You will need a hoe type tool to occasionally pull out debris from around the saw.
Sheet metal like Ron's idea, will make the area a lot smaller, so, more dust will go into the chain-blower.
Quote from: bandmiller2 on October 11, 2013, 07:24:27 AM
With the electric drag you can declutch the engine when your log handling, especially if you have the clutch linkage in the sawyers box, makes working around a little safer and quieter if you also have a remote throttle.
That sums up my thinking. Based on my experience to date, I can saw what would be about a deck load of logs before the dust needs attention. (I still haven't built a log deck so I'm having to load and saw one log at a time, which is a bummer) Anyway, while the deck is being reloaded, I could declutch the saw and idle the engine down. With the chain being driven by an electric motor, I could use a hoe or rake to pull the dust from under the saw and onto the chain to be carried out. I'm thinking the amount of time it takes to load the deck would be similar to the amount of time it takes to clean out from under the saw. After both are accomplished, clutch, throttle and have at the next load of logs.
-lee
And what would it take to put the pit in after the fact? Is that a possibility? ;) Whatever it takes I peronally see as a worthwhile endeavor having been with, and without one in my ancient history.
I recall gasping a bit back the first of June a year ago when seeing the forms laid out and the concrete pour beginning. But at the time didn't say anything as thought you may have plans to have the mill up high enough for the pit.
But agree with Jeff, that I'd see about cutting the concrete or jacking it out to put in a pit and address the problem straight away.
Quote from: Jeff on October 11, 2013, 04:19:35 PM
And what would it take to put the pit in after the fact? Is that a possibility? ;) Whatever it takes I peronally see as a worthwhile endeavor having been with, and without one in my ancient history.
I have stressed over these questions for almost a year now. I realize that every dollar I spend to 'patch' my mistake is a dollar I could spend actually fixing the problem. I install a pit I would have to:
- Clean all the dust from under the track frame and husk in order to mark where the concrete needs cutting
- Disassemble and remove the dust chain system including the posts that support the dust trough
- Disassemble and remove the husk and center track frame sections
- Cut and remove the section of concrete necessary for a pit
- Form and pour the pit floor and walls
- Reinstall the previously removed items
The dust trough would change positions to center under the saw so the support posts would need to be moved. The trough itself would attach to the floor of the pit. Also, the chain motor support would need modification if not a complete redesign as the chain itself would need to drop down into the pit instead of sliding along the concrete pad. Basically, the dust removal system would require modification as a whole. Then, there's the weakening of the concrete pad caused by the cutout for the pit to consider. This cutout would put two sharp corners within 10 feet of each other. It would most certainly crack between the two creating two seperate pads.
Is it possible to install a pit? Yes. Would would it cost? I'd say $500 to $1000. I do see all the benefits of having a pit. Anything that would make operating the mill safer and more efficient is certainly a benefit. Should I bite the bullet and start cutting?
-lee
You know what I have to say about it. :D :D
Quote from: Jeff on November 08, 2012, 06:03:54 PM
Harold is dead on. You need a pit under that headsaw. 18" minimum clearance to the saw edge I'd say.
I'll trade ya. :)
I don't have an operating sawmill yet but I do have an unfinished pit that needs some attention.
There may be a pit floor and wall in it's future but that remains to be seen.
It was designed by looking at what the previous owner had in his building.
The sawdust conveyor fits into the pit walls and dumps into another conveyor that is on an incline.
I'll have to find a picture of the conveyor and post it as I thought I had one in my gallery.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13635/Sawdust_conveyor_pit.JPG)
Here it is on it's side.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13635/Pit_Conveyor.jpg)
I have built some stuff. My engineering plans are not the best. Nor is my look ahead sight. :D There has been times when it cost me time,to redo it and than time to do it right. I look at it,how much aggravation,really swearing and wishing I would of done it right the first time,will it cause me. Than I decide from there. Sometimes I think I can live with it,but than one day I get sick of the swearing and just redo it. ;D
I wouldn't fret too much about having a pit. I ran a mill without a pit. It was a Jackson portable. Around the saw they had a metal box. On the end was a port to put a suction pipe that went to a blower. It sucked the dust out as quick as you could put it in. If you want to convert to a blower, that can easily be done on your setup.
I also ran a mill that had a drag chain directly under the saw. But, I ran that drag with the saw. I had no problems.
I also installed on a mill with 9" of clearance. On that one we used a drag chain from an old silage wagon. It took away the headsaw and the vertical edger dust with no problem.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10011/P1020043.JPG)
On the mill that had the most room between the saw and the vibrating conveyor, we had to put in pans to keep everything going into the trough. We put more panning up for that mill than I did for any other mill.
The only mill I had with a pit filled up with water when it rained on the weekends. The drag would take all the water out when I sawed. The only problem I had is when it rained, then froze.
I'm not seeing a big problem. You might want to put a deflector in at the saw end that will direct dust more into the trough. You might want to put some tin up so it doesn't blow back towards your belts. But, I really don't see much of a problem.
I'd try some tin first. If that dosn't do it put in a blower.
What I don't like about blowers is that they plug and jam and unless you are using pretty heavy pipe, damaged pipe. Especially if you are sawing undebarked logs and worse yet when you are sawing them during slipping season. A barn cleaner type conveyor running in a pit is the most trouble free system there is. I'd rather spend my time sawing then laying under a machine digging hunks of wood out of a pipe plugged tight full of sawdust.
A pit gives you saw time when your dust conveyor system is down for some reason, say, changing a wagon if you have it dumping in a wagon.
The one bad thing about a pit you do have to consider is, water and ice.
Ron and I have both been around multiple mills and various set ups and have developed different personal preferences on a few things. ;)
You guys are certainly the best! I really appreciate all the experienced advise as opposed to 'best guess' information. Given the knowledge that I've learned here, I absolutely understand the pro's and con's of the different types of dust solutions. I'm currently sawing in the ~ 1mbf range at a time as a custom sawing operation. If things pick up in the future to larger orders, I'll have to make a change in my dust arrangement whether it be a pit or a blower.
I think, for now, I'm going to concentrate on installing a log deck and finishing my edger. The 'journey' isn't over yet :)
-lee
If and when you go to a blower system, consider adding some "trap doors" into the side of the blower pipe.
The sawdust collection system we had at the furniture factory where I worked back in the 70's had these and they were placed where we could get at "plugged" pipe lines.
We were feed out dry sawdust and shavings, but at times a stick or other things would be sent up the tube and needed to be cleaned out.
These access hatches were great and they can be placed long the line where they need to be so that you can gain access to the tube to clear/clean it out.
Tin on a bevel will/should help direct the sawdust into the drag chain.
Good luck with your projects.
Jim Rogers
Lee,
Sawdust is always a big problem with the circular mills due mostly to the nature of that type of mill and the large kerf that it takes out during each pass as you work your way through a log.
I miss a lot of things about my Frick and wish I still had it at times but have to say that the sawdust is one of the things that I am quite sure will ever be missed. The good thing is there are many ways to deal with the sawdust and some are tried and proven as has been covered by the experts that have posted on this subject, I was always ok with a simple conveyor system using a fairly narrow chain fixed with paddles and a few custom built rakes, a shovel or two and handy compressor along with a big yard vac. with its 8" hose. It takes a few hours to really get things cleaned up and having a shed over the mill is great as long as the dust does not get very wet to where you cant easily get it off things. I bet you will settle on a sump type system of some sort that has a sump pump and a way to keep it dry to prevent ice from blocking it up. Wet and frozen sawdust makes things tough to deal with.
here is a pic of my sawdust conveyer
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19561/100_1538_%28Custom%29.JPG)
a pit is the way and the deeper pits help contain the dust . at places that I worked ( paper mills) dust and chips wore the pipes to shreds in no time , so I replaced lots of pipe and blowers . simple works better . just my .02 cents .
Lee,wile a pit is ideal,it would be too much trouble to put one in now.I'am sure with some modification what you have now can be made to work.You need to make some dust and figure how to move it where you want it. Frank C.
Lee, let me know when you are going to have a big day at the mill, I would love to come and help.
And remember, don't turn down any huge logs, I know a guy with a swingmill who travels and works cheap!
Frank
Quote from: bandmiller2 on October 16, 2013, 08:22:35 PM
Lee,wile a pit is ideal,it would be too much trouble to put one in now.
That totally depends on what the future is for this mill. To much trouble is a relative statement. If the mill is for puttering and now and again sawing, then yes, too much trouble for what the return is for the production life of the mill might be accurate. If some serious production is planned or possible for the future, creating a system to handle the sawing byproduct in an efficient mostly trouble free manor is well worth the initial work. I'm speaking from experience on this very thing.
The best thing we EVER did at the mill was put a pit and conveyor in for our Morbark debarker. For years we struggled with the auger/paddle conveyor removal system that was initially part of the machine and original setup. Just running the debarker was a full time job due to keeping the bark cleared and cleaned up. Once we put the pit and barn cleaner in under the debarker and removed the auger, it was like adding a half a man to our operation, and that benefit was there for us every single day from then on and quickly made us forget about the pain in the you-know-what it was to put that system in. Like I said, trouble is relative to the benefits gained.
Why do you need to dig a pit? As long as the saw is clearing the paddles, I don't see a need for a deep pit. The pit only gives you added surge area for when you're loading up the dust drag faster than it can take it away.
If the chain can't move the dust fast enough, add more paddles.
How about a bed chain out of a hopper sander?
Quote from: SPD748 on October 11, 2013, 05:55:04 PM
Should I bite the bullet and start cutting?
-lee
Lee, i'm known for not knowing much about sawmills, not ever having one. And for talking giberish.
Tho, i'm a woodworker, and i can tell you one thing, a dust chain and a pit is no dust extraction. Just a blower, yeah, well, why not, but not the best. The absolute best imho is a cyclone. Either push through or suck in.
I will reiterate.
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/
With the skill you've showed so far, i think it wouldn't cost you much to make a such in cyclone. You need to find yourself a secondhand blower, may be 10HP or so. And a geared vane for the bottom, so you don't have to use bags. Plus, in that kind of size, you could use oil drums to make some of the cyclone body.
A cyclone is in no way a dust remover. It is a device to slow and evacuate the dust from a blower/ suction removal system.
I've seen pallet shops shut down half a day trying to unplug a clogged cyclone.
Quote from: Jeff on October 17, 2013, 08:06:59 PM
I've seen pallet shops shut down half a day trying to unplug a clogged cyclone.
Down time ain't no fun. :-[
Quote from: Ron Wenrich on October 17, 2013, 10:29:54 AM
Why do you need to dig a pit? As long as the saw is clearing the paddles, I don't see a need for a deep pit. The pit only gives you added surge area for when you're loading up the dust drag faster than it can take it away.
I don't recall ever saying deep pit. ;)
I have several reasons I like a pit, but I am speaking from a high production point of view. The surge area is one. You betcha. We sawed up to 3000 feet an hour. We could saw up to 20 minutes without the sawdust elevator being on and there was a multitude of reasons that it might have to be turned off. Pile needing knocked down and no loader available, belt burned off on the gear drive, or drag chain jump the sprocket, who knows what. If you could keep sawing, that is money in the pocket and there were a lot of times I was able to take advantage of that ability. I'd bet probably tens of thousands of dollars in production over my sawing career just to be able to saw without having to saw when the sawdust removal system was down.
Clean up. You could sweep up under the mill and push wads of dust into the pit while the saw was off say to be sharpened and not have to stand there and wait for it to clear to put more in. Efficient use of time. Money in the bank. Maintenance. Being able to get up under the saw in our operation was a necessity to access certain blots bearings and hydraulic lines. Anything that runs past or near a saw that is subject to the spray of sawdust from a headsaw will wear out. Steel Hydraulic lines can actually be eaten away by sawdust hitting them, and yes, Forestall CMC and Morbark and Renco all routed lines in and around the husk to go to rollers or other things. I hated steel lines.
Power savings. Since our system could remove more sawdust than it created, you could turn it on late or off early and could be ran at intervals. Started 10 minutes or so after morning start up, breaktimes and lunch. that was 40 minutes there a day it didn't have to run.
Removal of large debris. You are invariably going to get a thin hunk of slab, or bark sucked down beside a saw. If you have plenty of room for it to go on down through, it can clear on its own without you having to stop. it can also prevent the saw from getting warm because it otherwise bottoms out, can't go anywhere, and gets the saw hot before you can get it all shut down.
I mean you can take what I have to say as just my experience. It may not apply to anyone else. It certainly applied to us.
Dad had a chain on his old mill for over 30 years with very little problems, I installed one on mine and so far no problems. It goes round and round and round with no noise.
Deep is a relative term. ;)
I've worked several types of dust removal systems on differing types of mills. The drag chain is the simplest I've used. Like Lyle says, it just goes round and round. I also remember seeing some pretty big pieces of bark being dragged out by the chain. Since its an open top, there are very few limitations.
The drawback with the chain is what do you do with the sawdust after the removal from the mill. The last operation was the drag chain to a barn sweep to a shaker to a blower. Really poor planning on the mill layout and poor equipment purchases were the problem. But, the drag chain is pretty limited to taking the dust from the mill and putting it on a pile outside. I worked one mill where the dust was taken to an overhead building so it could be loaded unto dump trucks that pull underneath. All done with similar drag chains, and also a poor system due to bridging of the dust. Production was about 10 Mbf/day on an automatic sawing grade.
Blowers are the easiest way to load trailers. They only require a moving of the trailer one time to finish off loading. We had very little trouble with blowers. Debris does build up at times, but weekly maintenance was generally enough to take care of it. The bigger mill had a screen to get rid of large stuff, but sometimes it would get blocked up from stringy edger dust when sawing tulip poplar.
We didn't use a barn sweep because we were putting slabs and dust into one system. The vibrating conveyor did the separation. A barn sweep could be used for an open topped trailer, but would have to be moved several times during the day.
Downtime is a factor in all mills. I've watched it eat up a lot of mills and put them out of business. We never had too much minor downtime. I could saw about 10-15 minutes without the conveyor working. Usually that happened if they changed trailers while I was sawing. Other than that, most downtimes weren't that short. Chipper clogs were more of a problem than anything else, and that was generally due to poor knife maintenance.
Friends of mine have no sawdust removal system other than gravity.Their old Lane is mounted high over cement bunkers, they remove the dust with an articulated loader a couple of times a day.You just have to be careful not to fall through. Frank C.
At our mill, in our area, sawdust was a commodity of great demand. Having it dump in a pile was the most flexible way of loading it back into a menagerie of different hauling vehicles and vessels. The very worst thing about a blower system in our area, due to homes down wind, was environmental. If you have sawdust escape and end up on vehicles a half mile down the road, you got some seriously ticked off neighbors.
The noise draws more complaints than dust. :D Blowing directly into a trailer doesn't produce too much errant dust. Blowing onto a pile will do that. The one neighbor has a apiary. Ever see what bees do to your truck? A lot worse than dust.
We delivered all our dust. Farmers don't like it sitting in the weather. We got pretty good prices, and we sold it year round and always had a waiting list. The nice thing is that we didn't have to pay someone to load it or tie up other equipment or have a pile of dust laying around taking up space. In some places, that pile of sawdust is sitting on some expensive real estate. We also got paid for doing the trucking. Even in Newark, we had all our dust sold, as well as the bark.
We considered delivery and quickly nixed the idea. First that is one more vehicle that had to be licensed, insured, operated and maintained and would require another body full time just to deliver. Then you have all the different scenarios and problems the actual deliveryies can run into. When I left the mill, we actually had 7 w14 case articulated loaders. The owner was a collector. :D Our sawdust was snapped up so quick that the real estate the pile took up wasn't any more than what a couple of 40 foot sawdust vans would have occupied. Usually there was never a pile.
There is a story about our mill in the collection of stories in this book related to the demand for sawdust:
http://www.amazon.com/Lore-Wolverine-Country-Stan-Perkins/dp/0961464038
As I remember it, It tells about a certain distant farmer getting up really early to try and beat everyone to the mill to get the first load of sawdust and needing to pull off for a moment, spots rival sawdust customer's truck at the rest area on U.S. 127 (then, just us 27) with the driver already in the restroom. The story goes on to tell how one truck shows up later at the mill because it somehow mysteriously lost air in one tire. :D
SPD,
I've been studying those pic's of the bottom of the mill. You stated the problem was geting the dust to the chain. I'm just thinking out loud here. Are you familar with the old combine headers? The ones with the canvus and rollers to direct the grain towards the center. Bet your dad Knows what they are.
Is there a possibility of mounting something like those under the husk to move/direct the dust to the chain?
Quote from: Jeff on October 17, 2013, 08:06:59 PM
A cyclone is in no way a dust remover. It is a device to slow and evacuate the dust from a blower/ suction removal system.
I've seen pallet shops shut down half a day trying to unplug a clogged cyclone.
Hi Jeff.
Well, i must be talking giberish then! Just a thing, over here, there's no sawmill without a cyclone. Or proper woodworking workshop for the sake of it. Ok, that might have to do with euroland laws. But, still, we're known in southern europe, for bending the law. Mind you, cyclone is the norm. Tho, sawmill ones are at least 6 feet in diameter!
satamax
Likely where the sawdust is from dry wood, then fine dust can be a problem.
But on a sawmill (band or circular) sawing logs, don't get that real fine dry dust that requires a cyclone. And the wet sawdust will hang tight in the cyclone and plug it up.
Just a thought.
And like I said, a cyclone has nothing to do with removing sawdust from the mill, it has everything to do with removing sawdust from the sawdust removal system. We never see cyclones at sawmills here due to the reasons beenthere relates.
A friend of mine visited a mill in Central NY that had the entire mill floor built on big columns and the floor was bar grating. Everything went down, and there was a guy in the basement with a skid steer driving around scooping it all up.
As mentioned, the cyclone is to get the lightweight shavings from wood working to settle into a bin. A friend of mine with a millwork shop has a big one on a drive under shavings bin. Without it you'd have the stuff all over the place. Wet dust doesn't blow too far.
Quote from: leroy in kansas on October 18, 2013, 03:05:30 PM
SPD,
I've been studying those pic's of the bottom of the mill. You stated the problem was geting the dust to the chain. I'm just thinking out loud here. Are you familar with the old combine headers? The ones with the canvus and rollers to direct the grain towards the center. Bet your dad Knows what they are.
Is there a possibility of mounting something like those under the husk to move/direct the dust to the chain?
Yes sir, that is my problem at the moment. The chain does a great job of removing what dust settles within it's path. The issue is getting the dust to settle there. As can be seen in the pictures, a good portion of the dust produced settles elsewhere. I have considered building a slow speed belt conveyor which would move most of the dust that settles between the track frame rails onto the chain. I don't want to put anything directly underneath the saw so that area will just have to be raked out periodically. A conveyor would cut down on the time it takes to clean up I would think.
-lee
Lee, be aware, that although the sawdust seems like a soft and fluffy thing, anything put under the husk that is not metal will be abraded away by the moving sawdust. Canvas, belting, anything like that will not last.
Quote from: Jeff on October 18, 2013, 06:38:10 PM
Lee, be aware, that although the sawdust seems like a soft and fluffy thing, anything put under the husk that is not metal will be abraded away by the moving sawdust. Canvas, belting, anything like that will not last.
When this project first began, my Dad and I wondered for the longest time how a notch was worn into the cable drum shaft. When I started sawing, we learned just how...
-lee
Just had another brain far*
The mechanism used in a live bottom trailer are used to unload saw dust. ??? Of course as Jeff states, anything placed under is going to eventually be worn away. How quickly???
OK Lee, I've been tthinking about your problem. I have the same issue's but I'm not worried about it, I just use a shovel from time to time to clean under the saw.
When I have time I'm gonna build something for this problem then I will post it for you, I cant build it now case I'm behind on lumber order's so your just gonna have to wait..lol
When I had that type of system, I don't recall the need to clean it out. The stuff that blows back will only reach a certain height until it can't blow it any higher. It creates its own walls. We were sawing daily with it. The only reason I see for needing to clean it out is if you're getting blowback.
Looking good so far 8)
Lee,have someone else operate the mill you just watch the sawdust you should get a good idea how to vector it. Frank C.
Funny you would mention that Frank. I met a master sawyer last week who has asked to come see my mill. His operation is based around an automatic mill, Edmondson I think. He learned on a handset Frick 00. When I asked if he would run my mill and show me how it's done he grinned from ear to ear and said, "Young man, it would be my honor." I think I have not only found a great teacher, I found a great friend. I'm thinking a video of this occasion is in order.
-lee
Lee, when this fella comes to teach school I would love to be there! Gimme a call beforehand.
Lee, make that a second. I would love to be there as well. Most of what I have learned is by watching myself, which means I ain't learned much!
Dave C
Lee...Best way to learn is to study the best and copy them. ;)
We can have school day at Lee's place!
A really skillful sawyers is something to watch especially on a handset mill. Back in the eighties when I decided to start milling I traveled to every circular mill I could find and watched.There were few very good sawyers and outhers that could be a lot better but their mills were underpowered,or just set up wrong slowing them down.All had good points on their mills, but also things hindering smooth operations.I tried to copy the clever and eliminate the poor practices.It takes a sawyer a wile to get used to a different mill. Frank C.
Hello all,
I've been side tracked for quite some time on another project. Last month, the good citizens of my city became restless which means I have to work harder. I wanted to check in and update everyone on the progress (or lack there of) on my mill.
I was having an issue with my engine running cold. It was blowing oil into the exhaust as a result. I couldn't seem to get it above 130° no matter how hard I pushed it. I previously established that the thermostat is good and opening at 168°-170°. Yesterday, my Dad and I removed the belts which drive the fan. I cranked the engine and noticed that it quickly warmed up to 170° before leveling off. This was with the PTO engaged and running at speed. We didn't saw, just let the engine run. It stabilized at 170°-175° with no fan and no air moving through the radiator. Now, I suspect that the engine would over heat if it were placed under a load. I think we've decided to install an electric fan directly onto the radiator and see if that would keep the temperature in check. The largest I can find is a 16" model which is said to move 2500 cfm of air. I have a temperature switch which will activate the fan at 180° and deactivate it at 170°. Others have mentioned covering a portion of the radiator. One thing I noticed while running the engine without the fan is that there are almost no vibrations, whereas there were some with the fan turning leading me to believe the fan is the source. Also, I noticed a drastic reduction in noise so I think the electric fan idea is best for my application. The remaining question is; will 2500 cfm keep the temperature in check under the intermittent load of a handset saw? I can't seem to locate anyone with a similar setup so I suppose it's back to the old 'trial and error' method.
-lee
I solved my fan/radiator problem by grafting a GM thermostatic fan and hub from a GM pickup. The fan only engages when the temp rises to the thermostat range. Regards, Clark
Yesterday, I called a company that makes larger electric fans. They have a 21" model that moves 4500 cfm which is around $600 with a guard, mounting brackets and thermostatic controller/relay. I looked at thermostatic clutches for the mechanical fan I have however those units were very expensive. I don't know if a smaller clutch (from a passenger vehicle) would swing a 26" fan. I suppose I could install a passenger car/truck fan and clutch unit and see what happens. What I do know is the fan I have moves a TON of air which, given the relatively light load placed on my engine, is just too much. I wish I knew a way to calculate the actual air volume requirement so I could install the proper unit and be done with it.
-lee
I know your situation isn't the same as what ours was in a larger enclosed area, but we were not allowed to use the large electric fans in the sawdust environment by our insurance carrier due to a greatly increased fire hazard. The sawdust can and will get in the fan. It can ignite and not only set the fan on fire, but blow oxygen fed sparks to other parts of the building.
Probibly the best option would be a thermostatic clutch fan from a junk yard, or even a smaller fan on the hub you have, to reduce the air flow. Frank C.
Loosen the fan belt just a tad till you get the right airflow.
Bring home the radar gun , check the speed of the fan . then loosen the belt check the speed again calculate the proper pulley dia. needed run to the shop and turn one out on the lathe and saw like you always knew you could.
I don't know if your unit has an air compressor,but the gmc truck we have has a 6-71 Detroit with an Air Fan Clutch, it works but it still runs cool.
The truckers in the cold areas simply block off the air flow to the radiator until they get the temp they need for cruise.
I just found this thread last week and have finally finished reading thru it. All I can say is awesome craftsmanship. And congrats on getting it done. Also its great you are doing/did this with your dad.. Now a couple questions..
I wonder why you couldn't
1. Put sheet metal or thick plastic chutes to guide the sawdust to the chain or...
2. Add two small conveyers parallel to the blade to move the sawdust to the chain?
Freedom,
I have a sheet metal 'baffle' on the side of the frame closest to the chain (near and partially under the cable drum shaft). It made a nice improvement in the way the dust was directed to the chain on that side. I don't think a baffle would help on the other side because the angle of the plate would be so shallow that the dust would just sit there. As for conveyors, I studied that possibility with great interest. I believe it would work especially under the husk area where it's more difficult to push or rake the dust over to the chain. At present, I'm not sawing enough to justify the cost of construction (I can clean out from under the saw area in about 20 minutes after a 'day' of sawing). After I got the mill up and running, I decided to let it pay for any additional equipment or modifications. So far, I've saved it's revenue toward building a shed. After it's built, I'll move on to other additions. We're still trying to iron out the coolant temperature. I have an electric fan coming which I hope will solve the issue.
On that note, Dad and I sawed the other day. I cut up around 300 bf of pine with no fan running. The engine temperature came up to 180° in short order and held. The ambient temperature was 75°. I wasn't pushing the saw anywhere close to it's capacity however we were sawing at a good pace. After that run, we put the belts back on the fan and covered the entire radiator with cardboard. We cut another 400 bf (in roughly the same amount of time) and noticed that the coolant temperature wouldn't climb above 130°. Knowing that the thermostat is working properly, the only conclusion that I can come to is that the fan is just too big or too fast. It was mentioned that I make a larger fan pulley (or smaller crank pulley). While this would be possible, the cost to construct would far out weigh the cost of the electric fan. The fan should be here by the weekend so hopefully we can get it installed and have another run at it.
Oh, my most beautiful better half purchased a shiny new GoPro camera for my birthday. Hopefully I can get a few videos up soon!
-lee
This may be too little too late. Have you looked into installing a smaller fan? If the blades are shorter it will move lower volume of air. Just a guess but it might work.
Quote from: GDinMaine on May 20, 2014, 07:40:02 PM
This may be too little too late. Have you looked into installing a smaller fan? If the blades are shorter it will move lower volume of air. Just a guess but it might work.
Dad and I looked at a few smaller fans however we just couldn't decide on the exact size. The thought behind an electric fan is that it can run only when needed. I have room on the radiator to add a second electric fan however, based on the engine temperatures while sawing the other day, it won't be needed.
I'm going to install water temperature and oil pressure gauges somewhere on the husk near the stick so I can keep an eye on things.
-lee
Just a thought, but have you checked to make sure there are no issues with the gauge? If that's off, then everything you measure would be too.
Quote from: Ron Wenrich on May 21, 2014, 11:08:06 AM
Just a thought, but have you checked to make sure there are no issues with the gauge? If that's off, then everything you measure would be too.
Hey Ron,
Yes sir, we checked the gauge with a screw in thermometer mounted in the water jacket. With the original fan running, the top water hose just barely gets warm to the touch. Without the fan, the top hose can't be touched. As others have stated, this engine just isn't being worked hard enough.
-lee
Lee, what is your feed rate, how many inches per revolution. A full feed rate will put more of a load on the engine. If I recall 1/10 inch per tooth, fourty teeth four inch feed per rev. of the saw. My mill feeds about 2"/ rev. could do more but I'am old and don't like things happening too fast. Frank C. PS I'd find a smaller fan or one without as much pitch and a partial covering of the radiator.
http://youtu.be/aRRBwzpZTS0
I took a quick walk around video this afternoon. I hope this works...
-lee
Good vid Lee.
I enjoyed the video. Great job. smiley_thumbsup smiley_thumbsup
I looked forward to seeing the one with it running. ;)
Thanks, enjoyed the "trip".
Thanks for taking the time to post that video. I really enjoyed it. :)
The new camera works great. You could see the ant run across the sawdust.
Lee
Thanks for taking your time to post th video looking forward to seeing more of the mill.
Quote from: Mooseherder on May 22, 2014, 06:34:51 AM
Thanks for taking the time to post that video. I really enjoyed it. :)
The new camera works great. You could see the ant run across the sawdust.
I saw that too!
Made me brush my puter screen a couple times. :D :D :D
Looking good. couldn't help seeing your shadow with the phone in one hand and gopro in other. I made a holder for both. worked out well. Got rid of the gopro and the holder as well. don't have any pics of it, sorry.
Thanks guys! I had a chance to play with the camera a little more today. I made a magnetic mount for it so I could shoot some hand free video. My Dad is coming over tomorrow to work on the mill so hopefully I'll be able to post a few clips.
-lee
Nice looking mill. You should be proud of it. Ever forget to take the bucket off the stack when you start it?? :o
Ever notice if you forget to take the can off the exhaust on an old deere 2 cyl. it will always fall back and ding your hood. Frank C.
Hahaha... No. I'm paranoid about it I suppose. It's funny you mention the two cylinder Deere, Frank. I have a 60 with several paint chips/dings in the hood. The chrome stack and silver can didn't work for me so I glass beaded the can and painted it bright orange. It's worked so far :D
-lee
:D :D
As a kid, the game was to see how high the coffee can would go when the JD popped the first time.
You've inspired me to get cracking. Nobody get in da way. :D
Inspiration is what it's all about Moose!
Dad and I got the new fan wired up and running. While we were at it, I tried out the new magnetic mount that I made for the GoPro. I still need to get the settings and camera angle fine tuned however I think this video tells the story. While sawing, the engine temperature came up to 180° in short order. The fan kicked on right at 185° and quickly brought the temps back down to 170° before shutting down. We cut several logs and noticed the temperature fluctuate between 170° and 185°. It would seem the fan is working nicely.
Here is the first log we sawed:
http://youtu.be/0vwC69PpX_Q
I hope you guys enjoy!
-lee
Great vid Lee! One of these days I would like to shoot a vid of my mill, I just have to learn how to do it..LOL
Anybody ever read a really good novel, that you really don't want to end? That is how I have felt about this thread. I am not a logger, sawyer, fabricator, machinist. Just a retired technician, turned hobbiest woodturner. I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread from Lee's Dad inspecting the original 6-71 (don't even know what that is, except a Diesel engine) in his plaid shirt, to Lee's wonderful engineering, and fabricating excellence. A whole lot of very good ideas from fellow sawyers. Lee's superb writing style and members suggestions have made this an excellent read, and I don't want it to end :)
Welcome to the Forestry Forum RayBell
You sure hit the nail on the head with your first post.
Great to see and hear the sawmill come to life and the blade sing through the wood.
Thought crossed my mind, that Dad had a heavy load with the thick slab. Maybe a 1" board would make the slab lighter and leave some material for making stickers. ;)
Another thing, be always aware that when the carriage has returned, not a good time to be flipping over slabs that just might not be clear of the sawblade. Had that happen once while I was sawing when a helper got a 4x4 white oak on the blade and it came past me and a guy helping load logs on the carriage. A disaster if it had taken out one of us rather than just through two apple trees in its 100 ft path.
I'd think a hookaroon for the offbearer to hook under the slab and pull the slab out from the bottom so it tips toward the carriage and lands face down on the roll way (before the carriage leaves) would be a good procedure. Just a thought.
Wow. I am so humbled by the thought that others are taking such an interest in my journey. This thing started out as a project for my Dad and I and evolved into an epic adventure. Don't worry guys, I have no plans to 'end' this thing any time soon.
I noticed the third (I think) slab was a little heavy so I ran around to help carry it off the rollers. My normal helper was bailing hay today so Dad volunteered to carry a few slabs and boards to check the efficiency of the new electric fan. My Dad normally enjoys sitting on a bench I made for him and listening to the engine growl and the blade sing. Hopefully soon I can build a shed over the mill and move his seat a little closer than the shade tree. Anyway, as it turns out, the fan performed flawlessly. Dad wanted to saw more but I knew the sun and heat were too much for him so I called it quits after two logs. His mind says more more more but I know his body can't take it. As it happens, a few of the boards we cut today will go toward a birthday present I'm planning on building for him.
Question for beenthere: You mention not to flip slabs with the carriage returned. Do you mean the heavy slab that my Dad tried to flip just before I ran around to help?
-lee
Lee, not being critical but you could feed the carriage a lot faster than you are. I see dad checking that your not taking too thick a slab. Nice video looking forward to more. Frank C.
Hey Frank,
I agree on the carriage speed. I was taking it very easy on this 'test' run so my Dad could keep an eye on the engine temperature. Normally, I pull the stick hard and let her rip! I have noticed a big difference in the dust/chip size when feeding very slow.
-lee
QuoteQuestion for beenthere: You mention not to flip slabs with the carriage returned. Do you mean the heavy slab that my Dad tried to flip just before I ran around to help?
That was when the thought crossed my mind, as just before you got around to help your Dad it looked like he wanted to flip that slab over so it would roll easy on the flat face. I was hoping he wouldn't do it when the carriage was already returned and could visualize (if he did flip it away from him) that it could have caught on the uprising teeth of the saw and carried quickly away. If the off slab is flipped toward the carriage before it leaves, then it would drop down flat and roll away easy. Less of a danger if the flipping and moving of the slab is done before the carriage with the log leaves the area. Offers some protection of something getting on the teeth (at least what I think, but other sawyers with lot more experience may see it some different than I).
But just a thought, and a mention as it came to mind in the great video.
Beenthere,
Yes sir, my Dad and I talked about that one after we finished. You are correct, Dad said he wanted to flip it over to roll easier just before I ran around to help. He said that he thought about it and realized it was unsafe so he stopped. Looking back, I should have taken a smaller slab and then a flitch off that face. I suppose I'll get the hang of running this thing one day.
My helper is still bailing hay today so I think I'll clean up around the mill. I didn't realize how messy it was until I watched the videos :)
-lee
Lee, what engine RPM are you at? Sounds like that fan setup did the trick...but if you can, I'd boost it up closer to the 200* mark. Anytime you can run a diesel warmer, especially a 2 stroke, they like it.
That mill is one fantastic setup!! I admire you and your Dad as well...great project!!
John
Hey John,
I'm running the engine at 1400 rpm when sawing. I have a 180° thermostat that I can run if needed. Dad says to run the 170° in the summer and the 180° in winter if it has temperature problems in the colder months. I haven't really pushed the mill since installing the electric fan. I have help lined up for this coming weekend and a whack of logs to run through. We'll see how the temperature behaves under normal sawing conditions.
I drew up some plans for a husk mounted 'desk' that will hold a full sheet of paper or legal pad (cut list, order, etc) and house water temperature and oil pressure gauges. I'm trying to figure out where the best placement would be. I think I'll make the plate and post then clamp it on the husk at first so I can move it around a little if the need arises.
I spent most of the day cleaning up around the mill. I moved all the scraps to the burn pile and swept up a little. It's amazing how a little cleaning makes things look so much better.
-lee
Lee, this falls in the nice to have category, its real handy to have a linkage to engage and disengage the clutch from the sawyers box along with a throttle control to drop to idle when you doing any task that takes a few minutes. It makes things a little safer, if the poop hits the fan kick out the clutch and drop the engine speed on your way out. Frank C.
Quote from: SPD748 on May 25, 2014, 05:23:39 PM
Hey John,
I'm running the engine at 1400 rpm when sawing. I have a 180° thermostat that I can run if needed. Dad says to run the 170° in the summer and the 180° in winter if it has temperature problems in the colder months. I haven't really pushed the mill since installing the electric fan. I have help lined up for this coming weekend and a whack of logs to run through. We'll see how the temperature behaves under normal sawing conditions.
I drew up some plans for a husk mounted 'desk' that will hold a full sheet of paper or legal pad (cut list, order, etc) and house water temperature and oil pressure gauges. I'm trying to figure out where the best placement would be. I think I'll make the plate and post then clamp it on the husk at first so I can move it around a little if the need arises.
I spent most of the day cleaning up around the mill. I moved all the scraps to the burn pile and swept up a little. It's amazing how a little cleaning makes things look so much better.
-lee
A good old fashioned chalk board is pretty handy
Frank,
I agree with the convenience and safety of the husk mounted controls. I've looked at several push/pull cable assemblies that would handle the force required to move the throttle and clutch arms. The throttle wouldn't require nearly as much force to move as the clutch. Additionally, the throttle would need to be actuated both ways where as the clutch would only need to be 'pulled' in an emergency situation. Hopefully, I'd never use it. It would be nice to throttle down for log loading which, without a log deck, takes several minutes.
Speaking of a log deck, I really need to get on that :)
-lee
Finally got around to watching the video. I'm really glad to see you have a push stick to get those pieces that hang against the saw. On your offbearer table, do you have them mounted on a hinge? I've seen guys mount them on a hinge to be able to flip them up when something gets pinched between the blade and table. Just a thought.
As for pieces flying back, you have to also watch when your slab goes into the board splitter. It's especially true when you have a pointed end. Sometimes the slab will get behind the board splitter. You'll know when it happens by the shower of dust you'll get. That is the only time I had a near miss with a slab. It was a short slab that caught, and when I hit the end of the cut, it shot back. Luckily I had a piece of safety glass that we used to keep the dust off the sawyer. It caught the slab.
I would also put a table over top of the belts. It keeps debris from your belts, and adds a safety measure of nothing like a board or slab from falling on moving belts. It also gives an area to put boards or the like that you want to resaw, or something you want to move from the saw area to the offbearer area without going past a moving saw. I also used the table to lean my cant hook against, and you can always hang a clipboard to it.
For the dust area, I would put a pan in the bottom to help direct the dust to the trough. Usually that works well. I would also pan the back so it doesn't blow back.
All in all, a good looking setup. I've sawn millions of bf of lumber on similar setups.
Hey Ron,
The husk cover board closest to the leading edge of the saw is mounted on a hinge. I used white oak for the cover however I'm thinking of making a new one from another material. The white oak moves with the climate which changes the distance the hinged board is from the saw plate. Dad mentioned using the composite 'lumber' available from the local box store. I think it's PVC material though I'm not sure. I could go with a steel plate with a hinged section. I have some 3/8" aluminum plate big enough to make a cover. What are your thoughts on the best material to use?
I have a stack of pine drying which I plan on building a pulley/belt cover from. Also, I've thought about hanging a polycarbonate sheet from the overhead chain guard to help deflect the dust and other debris. As for the dust area, where/how would I put a pan? Behind the saw (parallel or angled from the concrete pad) underneath the belt drive area of the husk or are you talking about a pan perpendicular to the concrete (parallel to the blade) on the husk side of the saw to keep the dust from blowing back underneath the husk?
-lee
I wouldn't put a steel plate next to the saw unless you're absolutely sure of no movement. I've had some with steel plates, and you will have to cut a hole where the teeth go through. Better to do it with a torch and not your saw. You don't need a very heavy piece of metal. Composite is going to be eaten up if it comes close to the sawdust stream. Very abrasive.
I would put a wall at the back and underneath the husk, perpendicular to the floor. You can use wood for something like that. You can use metal to pan in an angle from the top of the sidewalls down to your trough. Being metal, the dust will slide, especially as more dust builds up in the back. If you want, you can put a deflection plate under the saw and deflect towards the trough, as well. I've even seen sides around the saw, but that might make things harder to clean out, if you need to. I also know guys that would wax the metal from time to time to make it slide better. The only place that will need much maintenance is under the saw. The deflector under the saw takes care of that, as you use a heavier piece of metal.
What you're probably cleaning out now is dust that cakes into the corners. The pan will eliminate the corners. And being slippy won't allow the dust to bridge. I know that it was a rarity for anyone to shovel sawdust, except for edgers. I've even run one chain with less clearance than you have. But I ran that one in a parallel to the mill. I had the sides enclosed and didn't have much airborne dust.
Understood Ron. The aluminum plate is softer than the saw plate so it may be a better choice. I can cut a notch in the plate so that there is no chance the shanks/bits would come into contact with it. How close to the saw plate would you set the husk cover?
-lee
It doesn't matter how close you get. There will always be a piece that is absolutely the right size to fall in between that size of crack. I had one mill where we used a piece of brass molding to sit on top of the metal off bearer strip and still had problems. Things still got caught in there. 1/4" might be a good amount. I've used steel plate. Aluminum might not hold up so well.
Here's what my automatic looked like at the saw area:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10011/1546/sawguide.jpg)
My offbearer was a continuous belt. These work real well, and gets rid of the problem that Beenthere was talking about. You can see the size of gap we had at the live roll. I'll guarantee there was at least a few pieces each week that would get caught in there. Sometimes I had to loosen up the saw to get it out.
Originally, there was a guard over the saw guide. It was a steel plate. A limb stub was hanging a little low and caught it. It made lots of sparks and even more swear words. We never put another one on.
I had another automatic that had a steel plate on a hinge. You could lift it with a hydraulic cylinder. Worked great, and there wasn't any time that I couldn't get the piece out without heating the saw too much.
You've done a great job with the mill. I'm sure you can figure a lot ways of making a safe table. Just sit back and think of everything that can go wrong.
Lee
Im using a piece of lexan mounted on 3/4 plywood, It runs about 1/8 away from the blade. I have no problems.
Lyle!!! Long time no see... How have you been my friend? I'm trying to catch up with your build. Perhaps one day...
-lee
Quote from: SPD748 on May 26, 2014, 07:42:09 PM
Lyle!!! Long time no see... How have you been my friend? I'm trying to catch up with your build. Perhaps one day...
-lee
No more building for a while, just sawing and piling, sawing and piling, sawing and piling...LOL
Lee when you get a roof over the mill it will give you a place to hang a chip deflector. I used a section of fireplace screen, close to the saw but can swing and not hit it. Wile it won't stop large projectiles it will catch the little pesky stuff. If you run a shaft/pipe parallel to the carriage travel under the husk engine side you can have a lever in the sawyers box that swings right and left, then a shorter lever and linkage to the clutch lever and you can clutch and declutch easily. My throttle control is just a wire cable and an overcenter lever with a screw adjust. Its ether idle or saw speed. Both mills I've set up have a safety bar made from 2" pipe it fastens to the left side of the husk up with a elbow and extends in front of the sawyer. It would prevent tripping and falling into the saw and gives a spiffy place for the throttle and clip board cheat sheet. Frank C.
couple of pics for ya Lee
One is the lexan over the mandrel and the other is my control panel for the mill, the only time I have to go to the motor is to check the oil and coolant levels.
I have an air ram to control the clutch and an electric control to operated the throttle. It aint fancy lookin but its very effective
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29162/001%7E69.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/29162/002%7E62.JPG)
I have a board on the sawyers side of the saw hinged with a brass handle if bark or splinters are between it and the saw its a simple matter to flip it open. It helps if the board next to the saw has the bottom beveled away from the saw. A quarter inch space between the board and saw is about right. Frank C.
You guys always have the best ideas! The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of having husk mounted controls. I think I'll spend a little time this weekend ironing that plan out.
-lee
Lee, remember the parking brake levers they used on the old trucks the over center ones with the knob on the end for adjustment. That's what I use and a simple cable to the governor. What you want is one with just two positions idle and hammered speed. Its much more pleasant when your loading logs or turning cants to have the engine at idle. Clutch linkages are easy to figure and give you added safety working around the carriage especially if you have a "creeper". The women call it accessorizing we call it easier. Frank C.
To revisit my dust issue...
I picked up a 'Billygoat' debris loader (basically a gas powered fan) which is equipped with a 13 hp Honda gas engine. The unit is designed to vacuum up leaves. The company says the fan puts out ~2100 cfm of air however they don't list any other specs such as pressure, wg, etc. The unit has an 8" intake hose, which is about 10' long and a 7" output pipe, which is about 3' long with one 45 degree bend. It's equipped with a 14 1/4" fan which has 4 blades (I'm not sure how wide they are). I hooked it up and vacuumed out all the dust from underneath the saw and husk. It worked great! Now, knowing very little about dust blowers, I have a few questions:
Will the unit work if mounted permanently? That is, I would like to run overhead ducting to carry the dust out to the pile. I would shorten the intake hose to around 4' as I could mount the unit near the pulley side of the husk. This arrangement would mean I would need a ~5' vertical pipe, a long radius 90 degree or two 45's spaced a little and a ~25' horizontal pipe. Additionally, could I use 6" PVC or should I use 7" galvanized, spiral pipe?
The unit was designed to suck up wet leaves so, in my mind, saw dust shouldn't be a problem however I would need to rearrange the design of the intake/exhaust piping to suit my needs. Before I go cutting this thing up, I'd like some input.
-lee
Mount it close to the intake. You can blow sawdust a lot further and easier than you can suck it. I have about 40 feet of pipe on the output side of my blower. When the sawdust pile gets too big, I just add more pipe and blow it farther out in the woods behind the mill. 6 inch stove pipe from the hardware store works great..
That's what I was thinking Piney. The unit was designed to draw through ~ 10' of 8" tubing and discharge through ~ 3' of 7" tubing. I agree that dust can be blown easier/farther than sucked. The output on this blower is 5" x 5" for a total area of 25 in^2. 6" PVC has an internal area of ~ 28 in^2. I can install PVC much cheaper than steel. As previously mentioned, the intake hose will be shortened to ~4', perhaps a little less. From what I've read, maintaining the air velocity is important so going with a pipe too large would be counterproductive.
-lee
If you go with pvc pipe you may want to run a bare copper wire inside the pipe that is well grounded on both ends. When moving solids through plastic pipe with air very large static charges can build up. If the sawdust is dry enough it could be a fire hazard. But at the very least is is annoying, every time you get near the pipe your hair will stand on end and if you touch it you can get quite a shock. Running a wire through it won't prevent it completely but it will reduce it.
PVC doesn't hold up too well to the abrasiveness of sawdust. The first knot to go through will break it. I've seen a lot of stove pipe used. For intake, you need to tape the joints, and you'll need to tape the elbows, as they tend to blow out.
The mill I last did consulting work at tried to use a chip blower to move sawdust. The sawdust was to fall in front of the blower and be blown into trailers. That didn't work well, which is what I tried to tell them. But, they went through the expense of trying it out. It ended up that they bought a good used blower that sucked the dust through and blew it out the other side. Worked so much better.
The one mill I worked on had a huge pipe that we used to suck dust from our shaker. It was about 18" round and about 25' long. We had that size reduced to about 8" before it went into the blower. That then blew the dust into a trailer using an 8" pipe. We could blow nearly to the front of a 40' trailer. There was enough suction to pull saw teeth, knots, bark and pieces of wood from one end to the other and blow it out the discharge pipe. The intake pipe was welded and it was airtight.
I don't know what your Billygoat looks like or how you're planning to hook it up. Most mills I've seen have suction out from under the mill and the blower sitting at the edge of the mill. Seems that access is better, especially when you get a clog, which is gonna happen.
Yep...PVC is for water...and it doesn't work well for much else. Think of a grain elevator explosion when you think of using it to transport chips/sawdust. They do make good heavy walled ducting for dust that would work well, and isn't that terrible expensive. Of course, the less bends, the better and if totally necessary, make them as gentle and large radius as you can.
John
Thanks guys. It looks like I'll be ordering the 6" galvanized spiral pipe and fittings. There will be one long radius 90° and one 45° along with ~28' of spiral pipe on the exhaust side of the fan. The intake side will be an almost straight shot of 8" flexible tubing ~4' long. I'm going to test run the fan tomorrow morning (free standing, no added ducting) while sawing to see how much dust it will take out as the mill is running. I think the airborne dust right off the saw will be easier to vacuum than the packed dust that settles. We'll see.
If this setup doesn't work, Meadows Mills makes a 'real' sawdust blower (#2) that has an 8" intake and a 6" exhaust. I called them some time ago and the #2 fan was recommended for my application. The Billygoat fan was really, really cheap. Ok, ok... it was given to me so what do I have to lose by trying it out?
-lee
Lee go to IRS auctions this stands for Industrial Recovery Service auctions they have a lot of woodworking equipment blowers pipes just about anything you can think of for the woodworking industry hope this helps slab Mendon mass.
blowers are noisy and the pipe doesn't last long . I've worked at 2 paper mills in maintenance. for a small mill that chain you have maybe the best . you just don't have a 3ft deep pit to stop the spread of the dust . even then it's still going to gather around right much . it won't hurt a thing , I've never seen a dust free sawmill .
Hello Slab, and Welcome to the Forestry Forum. How about adding your location and sawmill, etc. to your profile. Also, start an intro thread and share some of your sawing/lumber interest. :)
Update on the Billygoat blower:
I hooked her up and sawed two old white oak logs I had laying around. It's amazing how sharp bits make oak so much nicer to saw :). Anyway, the blower worked great. I put the hose under the husk and about 12" away from the trailing edge of the saw. It pulls plenty of air to suck in the airborne dust as it's produced. With that, it's on to stage two. I'm going to order the spiral pipe and fittings then make the blower system a little more permanent.
-lee
Sounds like it has some good potential for the dust problem.
You thinking it will chew up any splinters, knot chunks, bark, etc. that get into the blower and spit them on out?
Just for good measure, I threw a few pieces of bark into the intake. It handled those well. The fan blade is 3/16" steel. It's not quite the 1/4" that 'real' blowers are made of but it's close. We'll see how it holds up.
-lee
Is this a free standing unit? If you are going to use this blower I would have it run off of the 6-71 via V-belt somehow rather than a second motor,just my 2 cents.
That's the plan, whitepine2. Eventually I'll run the blower off the saw mandrel.
On a different note, I finally found a log deck. Its an Edmiston and comes with a chain type log turner! My Dad and I went to look at it last weekend and are going back this weekend to get it. Pictures to follow...
-lee
Quote from: SPD748 on June 24, 2014, 03:05:26 PM
That's the plan, whitepine2. Eventually I'll run the blower off the saw mandrel.
On a different note, I finally found a log deck. Its an Edmiston and comes with a chain type log turner! My Dad and I went to look at it last weekend and are going back this weekend to get it. Pictures to follow...
-lee
Im starting to collect material for my log turner so I am very interested to see your pics
Make sure you make alterations to your carriage so you don't throw it off the track when you turn logs. A couple of angle irons is all it takes. One on the carriage, one on the track.
Lyle,
I'll post as many pictures as you need. It's actually a very simple design.
Ron,
Dad and I talked about adding a couple pieces of angle iron to hold the carriage on the track. How long would you recommend making them?
The deck also has some 'kickers?' I guess that push the log/cant against the carriage, when needed. The deck will require three hydraulic valves and the turner will require two. I plan on using Prince 'SV' stack valves.
-lee
Quote from: SPD748 on June 24, 2014, 07:30:10 PM
Lyle,
I'll post as many pictures as you need. It's actually a very simple design.
Ron,
Dad and I talked about adding a couple pieces of angle iron to hold the carriage on the track. How long would you recommend making them?
The deck also has some 'kickers?' I guess that push the log/cant against the carriage, when needed. The deck will require three hydraulic valves and the turner will require two. I plan on using Prince 'SV' stack valves.
-lee
Yes plenty of pic's so's I can open my eyes and free my mind. Good for you finding your deck and turners I would like to make something for my mill. I have followed all your posts took 3 weeks as I didn't wont to miss anything,I went through all you did setting up my mill took me several years to get it up and running,mounted it on steel. It was a basket case as
I had to remove it quickly as owner sold land,several houses there now.Had to put it to gather after several years in back of barn. Glad I did it as it was a learning experience as you well know. My mill is part Chase and part Lane it has a Clover feed by Lane which they tell me is worth as much as the mill very nice feed works. Well enough for now just post pics.
Thanks for the info.
P.S. I'm retired from the Blue Line as well 33 years of service.
Short vid of my mill working //http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RldFzQFiCaw&list=UUhdnyptbpwXQbr3Qwqk9VqA&index=13
I bought my turner from edmiston 15 years ago it has performed flawlessly.the fellows there are very helpful if you can I'd go see them before I hooked up the deck and turner they are a wealth of info.If they are still in business its only about 2 or 2 1/2 hours from you. Edmiston hydraulics ferguson nc
Whitepine,
33 years in blue, I salute you sir! I'm not quite there but I'm working on it. That's a good looking mill you've got there. I'm glad to hear my 'journey' helped you a bit. There's nothing quite like the smell and sound of an old Detroit doing it's thing! I will post plenty of pictures of the deck and turner. As always, I'm eager to help in any way I can. Tuam Libera Mentem my friend, Tuam Libera Mentem!
Virgil,
I received your PM. I'll call sometime tomorrow. I have superior court in the am so it will be after lunch I think. I would really like to visit Edmiston. I do have some questions about the hydraulic requirements of their deck and turner. I'm also undecided about where to place the valves in relation to the sawyer's position.
-lee
My big carriage had two, one on either end of the carriage, and they were about 3' long. I had 4 headblocks, and my 8 & 10' logs used the 2 middle ones. 12' was done on the back 3, 14' on the front 3 and anything longer used all 4. So, when I parked the mill for turning, I caught a good portion of them.
For those smaller carriage, 4-6' would be in order. When you have different lengths of logs, you'll still be able to catch part of the angles. You'll just have to use a little engineering to figure out the best placement for your setup. 4' would give you about 8' of travel where you would still have at least 2' of angles interlocked.
Wow that's a lot of pages just got done what a journey you and your Dad have undertaken Thanks for sharing.
whitepine2,ayup,it does work good.
I too have been following Lee's journey. It is very interesting. I know that eah new callange gives you problems to solve, but I feel like Im learning. Some day I would love to see a mill like that in operation.
Dad and I made the trip (185 miles one way from my home) and brought the deck and turner home. I had to get an over width permit to legally haul it as it is 9'11" wide. The deck is a little shorter than I was looking for at 16' total. The chains are 12' long. It was built as a portable deck and has stub axles, wheels and tires mounted to it. I've never seen one quite like this one. Here are a few pictures.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04573.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04578.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04572.JPG)
While we were out there, Dad picked up a set of steel wheels (they're on the front of the trailer) to make a little 'yard art' :) He loves old steel wheels and these are the biggest he's found so far. I bought an old chicken house fan that I think I'll make a frame/guard for and mount it in the saw shed after it's up. The motor on the fan I bought is bad and the pulley is missing. Does anyone know how fast it's supposed to turn? It has four blades and is 48" in diameter.
I also picked up this vice:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04579.JPG)
It's a Columbian 205-M2. Very nice! I gave a bill for it, which in my opinion, was the best deal of the trip. It's as tight as the day it was made. I'd say it weighs 80 or 90 lbs. The only thing missing is the front 'pipe' jaw which I think I can make without too much trouble ;D
Dad is coming over today to start cleaning up the deck and turner. I'll post more pictures this evening.
-lee
wish I could find something like that, it would save me many hours of headaches..lol Nice find Lee
I like the wheels on that deck. I had a deck project that I was working on and I was going to put an axle under it so I could move it when I was cutting long logs. Unfortunately, the deck needed too much work, and the easiest way to get it off my to do list was to take it to the scrap yard. :-\
Looks like you had a fruitful day. Good small decks like that are hard to find. I drove 150 miles to a sawmill auction in hopes of winning a similar one. When I got there they had pulled the deck out of the auction as a friend of the owner wanted it. It wasn't a wasted trip as I came home with a few other toys...just like you, and the drive was pretty. :)
Nice 8) 8) I've got a RENCO chain log turner similar to that around here ;D
Good evening all,
Much to my surprise, we managed to free the chains on the deck and log turner today. I plumbed an air line to the motors on the deck and turner. After a liberal dose of oil on the chains, they turned without too much fuss. I figure, if 100 psi of air will get things moving, surely 1000 psi of oil will. We spent much of the day measuring and figuring out how to mount the turner and deck. I have a question for the experienced; how close and at what height should I mount the deck to the carriage? Perhaps some pictures will help explain my question:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04599.JPG)
This is the leading edge of the log deck skids (upper right corner of the deck as pictured). How close should this be to the carriage? I'm thinking it should be lower than the headblock height and mounted so there are a few inches of gap between the carriage and deck however I'm not sure.
Here are a few more:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04611.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04593.JPG)
I added a coupler to the front of the deck so I can move it a little more easily:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04592.JPG)
I mounted a new set of temporary wheels and tires:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04603.JPG)
On to the turner:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04620.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04583.JPG)
Some of the teeth are chewed up a little but I think they'll do the job.
I'm going to replace the hydraulic cylinders on the deck and turner. Two of three have bad seals and I'm sure the third isn't far behind. Both hydraulic motors are in good order so I'll run those as they are. The question now is; should I sandblast and paint this deck and turner or install them as they are ???
-lee
Lee, a bit of paint never did any harm. do what ya want. Looks like a good score. I'm thinking your going to need a D9 to bolt that vice to, so you can keep it anchored. ;D
The ramp shouldn't be lower than the headblocks. The logs will hang up, especially the smaller ones. Mine were always level with the headblocks. I wouldn't want to go higher. But, my ramps have always been ones you could move. Even with a log turner, you'll have logs that hang up.
What is the smallest log you'll be sawing? You can go about half the diameter. The other thing you need to consider is the thickest thing you'll be sawing. Your ramps are in an angle, which means that you might rub on them if the wood is too thick. If you're only 2" away, then if you pull a 3" cut, you'll rub. But, if you're too far away, small logs will fall between the carriage and deck.
The other problem with ramps are logs with sweep or poorly trimmed. If anything is hanging out, like a branch stub or has an excessive bell, they can rub on them, too.
Thanks Ron.
This deck has an arm in each strand that is moved by a hydraulic cylinder. The arms are connected to a shaft with coil springs to allow some 'give'. It looks like their purpose is to push a log or cant tight against the knees. Would they be able or were they intended to push a log, that might be hanged between the deck and carriage, over onto the carriage or were they intended to simply hold a log/cant tight against the knees for dogging? You can see one of them in the down position here:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04601_28329.JPG)
-lee
Is that a ramp extension? I don't think it is used to push a log onto the carriage. Your log turner will be able to do that. If you use it as a ramp extension, then you'll have room to walk between your deck and your carriage to set your dogs. You'll be able to set your dogs while your turner holds the log in position. How far do they move?
Quote from: Ron Wenrich on June 30, 2014, 07:50:43 AM
Is that a ramp extension? I don't think it is used to push a log onto the carriage. Your log turner will be able to do that. If you use it as a ramp extension, then you'll have room to walk between your deck and your carriage to set your dogs. You'll be able to set your dogs while your turner holds the log in position. How far do they move?
They're not a ramp extension Ron. They come up about 30° past vertical, toward the knees. This deck is full of surprises :) I'll take a picture of them raised when I get back home.
-lee
If they aren't ramp extensions, you may want to consider adding some. Some that are movable, so that you can swing them out when you want to load a log, then swing them back so you can walk between the ramps and the carriage to dog the log. If you can't do that you'll need to dog one end of the log and then move the carriage forward to dog the tale end.
I used to dog the tail ends of long ones when I worked for the guy who taught me sawing back in the 80's.
I don't have any pictures of his rig but I think his ramp ends were movable so we could roll a log on and then swing them out of the way.
And everything on the log deck was higher then the top of the carriage so that the logs rolled down hill.
In the olden days, sawmills were set up just a bit lower then the brow of a hill. That way a horse could drag a log up the hill and when it was released from the horse it could roll down the hill onto the bunks or carriage. Use gravity, don't fight it.
Jim Rogers
I've never seen any extension from the log deck that would be used to push logs or cants on a carriage. Doesn't mean they don't exist. I know you haven't had them set up, but how fast do you thing those arms run? There's no paint off the end of the metal, which would be worn off if they were used for pushing. It seems to be worn off the top. I'm sure another picture will give a clue.
Sure is a lot of fun trying to figure out someone's thinking when they design things.
Any log deck that I've seen, and that isn't very many, the end of the ramp has been level with the carriage, and only about 1" to 2" away. I would think with those hydraulic log rammers on there you could go level, that way it wouldn't affect the thickness of cut that you could take. That is a pretty nice log deck. 8)
G'day
Looks like you got yourself an Meadows #100 turner and a Mellot portable deck from the pics in pretty dang good nick from the looks of it :)
You can make a cam anti derailer that locks onto the front inside carriage frame when you bring the turner up the other way is two opposing pieces of 4' angle iron one welded to the bottom side of the carriage and one welded to the track will do the trick ;) just leave 1/3 to 1/2 gap ;)
Regards Chris
As promised guys, here are some better pictures of the log kickers (or whatever they're called).
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04621.JPG)
You can see the actuating rod and coil spring in this picture. The arm is down.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04631.JPG)
Here the arm is as far up/forward as it will go.
What do you guys think?
-lee
I think it's a great idea. :D
G'day
Lee those are turn down arms you can use them with either manual or auto carriages the ones on dad's meadows where full hyd so they could turn down anything up to a 4' log and push it back onto the carriage you could also pin a log half way through a turn to get a better bite with the Mellot 4a turner
Regards Chris
A picture is worth a thousand words. I thought they moved in and out.
I think Meadows may be on the right track. I can see you using it to hold a log for dogging or for holding to get a better bite with the turner. Where they are probably the most useful is if you were turning your logs out instead of in. You pull your log down onto the ramp and allow it to slide back in to the headblocks. If you had downturns on the carriage, you would be able to turn out.
I had a setup on a handmill that used something along the same line, but it had rollers instead of hydraulic arms. I only used a cant hook to turn logs. By turning out, I could turn a log faster than I could with a log turner. Especially the smaller logs or cants.
Thanks guys!
Your explanation makes perfect sense. I can see where the arms would help a log that is turned out then slide it back against the knees. The turner I have only has dogs on the 'up' side of the chain. Chris is correct, this turner either is or looks exactly like a Meadows 100H. According to Meadows, the 100H will only turn logs in/up while their 120H will turn both ways. The dogs on both turners appear to be the same. Is there some reason why my turner won't turn out/down? I can see where the 'up' shaped dogs might not want to grab the log if they were turning down but the Meadows 120H dogs look the same so maybe I'm missing something. Ron, I can easily see where turning down/out would save some time and wear on the turner.
-lee
G'day
Lee if you saw a #100 and a #120 side by side you would see a massive difference in size n how they are put together to lift puts compression on the turner if you start tying to pull down with a light/med duty turner they would be liable to try pulling itself apart single way turners are usually seen on manual and smaller auto mills and the two way turners are on the bigger autos fitted with turndowns
Regards Chris
Thanks Chris,
I've only seen a 120H in pictures. I can see where pulling on a small turner could damage it so I'll let that idea go. What is your opinion on the mounting location of the deck? How close to the carriage?
-lee
Here is an old post with a video clip that might give you an idea on how are ramp was positioned up to the carriage.
Quote from: Jeff on February 05, 2012, 09:24:45 AM
There's not a whole lot of footage of me sawing, and what there is, is pretty bad quality, but there are two clips I have on youtube that I've posted on the forum in the past. The first one was taken of me sawing, but not really showing the mill. The second one shows a little more mill. This is what I did 8 to 10 hours a day, and for several years an additional 6 hours on Saturdays.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3PftuULqdk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VPJ-Ojha-s
Here's the best I could come up with on my mill:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/archives/mills/mills-circle-swing2/pop2.jpg)
My ramps leveled out instead of having an angle the whole way, like your's does. I could pull a 7" cut if I wanted to split some ties. I had a vertical edger that would limit it. Even so, I had to watch I didn't drag my ramps. For me, it wasn't a big deal, since they were on a bolt that allowed them to move left or right. I only had a couple of inches clearance, but I could move them to accommodate longer or shorter logs. Your deck doesn't have that flat part, so you'll be dragging much sooner, and you'll be dragging on the ramp. Something will have to give.
What do you expect to be the thickest piece you saw?
Ron,
So far, 3" is the thickest I've cut. We talked about setting a 4" gap between the carriage and deck. What if I added short and level extensions to the front of the deck? I'm thinking this would help prevent a log/cant from dragging on the deck if I pulled a thick cut. I looked at several new decks that had angled rails (allowing gravity to move the log from the stop and load arms over to the carriage) that were straightened at the point closest to the carriage. Maybe a 4" gap and 4" extensions which would allow an 8" pull before the cant hit the angled section of the log deck? This would change the angle that the turn down arms hit the cant if they were used to push the cant against the knees. Would this matter? As stated, the turner could be used to push the cant tight against the knees if the arms were not effective.
I really don't see a way to make arms that would lift up and allow me to walk along the length of the carriage to dog without some major surgery to the deck and to the concrete supports that I've poured. If I did, I'd lose the turn down arms. Which would be more helpful, given my setup?
Jeff, that's a furious pace you've got going in those videos. If I can saw at 10% of that speed, I think I'd be happy :)
-lee
The flat part on my ramp was about a foot long. I doubt if you need that much. If you had a 4-6" piece, and had the end a couple inches from the headblock would give you more than enough to pull a 4-6" cut. Anything thicker than that you can just leave on the carriage. There are probably ways to engineer an extension that goes up and down, but I don't know if it would be worth your while, unless you were getting into production work. My impression this is more of a hobby.
If you mount your log turner between the first and second ramp, you will probably not need to crawl over things too much, unless you're sawing long logs. You would set your dogs on the first headblock, then advance the carriage so you can set taper and dogs on the next headblock, etc. When you are turning, you'll just reverse the process. I also think you'll find turning with a cant hook will be faster after you get to a workable size. Especially if you have a power receder.
I think rather than modify the deck and turner I would extend the mill ways. Put the deck at the end your going to have to add anti-derailers anyways. Log loaded, and clamped one spot to hold it then moved to where you can walk along side to set the tapers and dogs. This would also reduce thick cuts from dragging the log deck. Log ways only need to be perfect when the log/cant is in the saw. Frank C.
Thanks guys.
I did some measuring last night. I have 12 feet from the leading edge of the blade to the first strand on the deck. I think that's plenty of room to walk and taper/dog. I think I will add some 6" (level) extensions to the front of the deck and leave 4" between the deck and the extensions. That should allow as thick of a cut as I will ever make. The extensions to the deck may render the turn down arms less effective or not effective at all however I don't think this will affect me all that much. Now I need to decide where to mount the hydraulic valves.
-lee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0BkCh8kqEQ&feature=player_embedded
Hello there, officer!
As many others, i am following the interesting progress of your mill.
When i saw the pictures of the deck and turner you found, i remembered a video of a mill were they used a set of "arms", that appears to be similar as those on your deck, for pushing the log back onto the carrige.
The video shows the use of these arms pretty well, and also how to turn the sawn cant by pushing it down on to the lower sitting rollers, then lifting it up and engaging the arms to push the cant back on the carrige.
anyway, keep up the good work!
Regards, stefan.
My friend Brandon and his dad Todd came over yesterday to saw a trailer floor. We cut around 500 bf of white oak into 1 3/4" boards. Those logs have been down a while and were very 'dry' compared to fresh logs. It really made a difference in how the dust behaved. Anyway, I hope those were the last logs I have to load individually. My Dad is coming over today to start working on a leg system for my log deck. The wheels on the deck really make moving it around easy. Dad and I moved it into place and jacked it up on cement blocks to check alignment, position and level. I have the measurements now so it's time to break out the saw and welder once again. As always, pictures to follow. Here is a video to hold you guys over until then.
Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhrJ6eKItyQ
-lee
It seems appropriate to post this here as my Dad was such a huge part of this project...
Yesterday morning around 6 am, my Dad lost his battle with cancer. My daughter and I were with him. I have never felt so lost, so broken. He was everything to me.
-lee
Very sadden to hear of your loss, may your memories help the healing process.
Very sorry Lee.
Condolences Lee. It's been twenty years now since my dad died and it still seems like yesterday. We know your dad was proud of you by the way you worked together on that mill.
Condolences Lee.
Lee,
So sorry to hear of your loss. Our prayers will be with you and your family.
Dave C
Sorry to hear, words can't be said, Dads are the best friends we can have, thanks again for sharing him and your project with us,, david
Very sorry to hear of your loss, my condolences to you and your family.
DGDrls
Thoughts and prayers Lee. I am so sorry.
I'm very sorry :( :(
I am so very sorry to hear this Lee. My Sincerest Condolences are with you and your family.
Lee,
Sad news for sure. My prayers for you and your family. I know he will be missed.
Sorry for your lost.
Jim Rogers
Sorry to hear about your loss Lee.
Im really sorry to hear about this Lee
Our condolences and prayers be with you and family. May your Dad rest in peace. We are happy to have shared some of your life experiences together, here on the FF.
So sorry to hear that Lee. I'm glad that you could spend that time with him, building, dreaming and enjoying! God bless you both!
John
Sorry Lee for your loss. I went through the same thing in 06 when my dad lost his battle. He was my best friend and always by my side. It is a hard time in life. My thoughts are with you and your family.
Lee this is very sad news, It is good that you had your dad with you and I am sure he was happy to spend his last days staying there at your place where he was comfortable and with his family. I hope you get a chance to take a few extra days off and enjoy some quiet time with your loved ones. I am a huge fan of " A Circle Sawmill Journey " and your Dads knowledge and talents showed strongly as a very positive statement over the time it took to get the project off the ground and into the logs, start to finish your Dad hung in there with you and kept it going. He will never be forgotten here on the Forestry Forum and in the minds of the many fans who followed the mill's journey from start to finish, a very remarkable effort all the way and the results speak loudly for all involved.
Thank You for sharing this journey with us and may your Dad rest in peace.
Sorry for your loss.
Sad news for sure in the days to come try to find comfort in your memories of good times spent together and of the many things a man teaches his children throughout his lifetime.
I'm also very sorry to hear this Lee, giant splinter couldn't have said it any better so I won't even try, condolences to all.
I'm very sad to hear of your loss. As others say, I always looked forward to following your sawmill project from day to day, and you guys were a great team, and that means a lot.
YH
Sorry to hear of the sad news.
Lee, So sorry to hear of your loss, Lord be with you and yours through this time.
Tim
So sorry for your loss.
Praying for you and your family Lee.
Trever
Lee,
Sorry for your loss. Take a lot of time to heal, relax and remember the good and the not so good times, for they are all about the same thing, Life! Your dad was one to get to the business at hand. So will you. The next exceptionally clear cool day, when the old engine is purring like a kitten, and the boards are coming off the mill like marble slabs, stop, look up, and your dad will be up there smiling down on you with a big grin. Be strong, and be safe.
Andy
Lee, so sorry for your loss. My Daddy died of cancer 26 years ago, and I still think of him a lot. I have to come down to Ellis Lumber soon, I will call and buy lunch.
Frank
Sorry for your loss. Can't imagine life without my dad.
lee i am so sorry to hear of your loss . nothing compares to the bond between a father and son
Very sad to hear that Lee, this project ment a lot to both of you. You have your time together to remember. Frank C.
Quote from: SPD748 on November 08, 2014, 06:16:10 AM
It seems appropriate to post this here as my Dad was such a huge part of this project...
Yesterday morning around 6 am, my Dad lost his battle with cancer. My daughter and I were with him. I have never felt so lost, so broken. He was everything to me.
-lee
So Sorry. I lost my father, best friend, boss, life teacher..... 12 years ago. It was the hardest thing I have ever gone through. Mine went instantly with no warning. But after I came to grips with the reality that if he were given the choice and not the time, he would have taken this. I am very you lost one of the few people in your life you will never quit missing.
Alligator
You never get over loosing a parent, but by the grace of God, you learn to live with it.
Lee, I'm just up the road, if you need ANYTHING, let me know.
My deepest condolences. Sorry for your loss.
Our condolences as well.
This journey you two under took with the sawmill has been one to be proud of with some good memories.
12 years ago I lost my dad to cancer shortly after he retired, I did not get my first sawmill till a few years later.
so sorry for your loss . it's been 35 years ago for me but as fresh in my memory as yesterday . only time will ease the sorrow .
Praying for your family
Thank you all for the kind words of encouragement and condolences. It's been 6 days now, all of which seem like a blur. I went down and started my mill. I didn't saw anything, just listened to the detroit rumble. I sat on the steps of the platform and tried to remember all the times Dad and I worked together on the mill. I tried to remember all the times he told me that I was over doing things and the look on his face each time he said it. My thoughts seem so lost and unorganized.
I know that he would not want me to dwell in sorrow and I know that I will see him again.
-lee
I truly believe every time you go to the mill......'Ol Pop's looking down on you Lee. :)
Very sorry to hear about your loss. Condolences and prayers to your family.
Quote from: SPD748 on November 12, 2014, 09:34:44 AM
Thank you all for the kind words of encouragement and condolences. It's been 6 days now, all of which seem like a blur. I went down and started my mill. I didn't saw anything, just listened to the detroit rumble. I sat on the steps of the platform and tried to remember all the times Dad and I worked together on the mill. I tried to remember all the times he told me that I was over doing things and the look on his face each time he said it. My thoughts seem so lost and unorganized.
I know that he would not want me to dwell in sorrow and I know that I will see him again.
-lee
It will be that way for a while. But, you had the good fortune and good sense to take time time to spend with your father working on the mill. It will be jewels in your memories for the rest of your life. I will take time for the clouds to clear, but these precious moments will be a shining light. You will remember things that slipped by at the time, but will be pearls of wisdom in the future.
We always want more. I had 30 year of my adult life with my father, I would give anything for 30 more.
Alligator
Lee, condolences to you and your family.
As those above have commented, and I'll agree, our fathers are something special. I lost my dad to cancer almost 18 years ago, and I still miss him every day. I just try to live my life in a way that he would be proud to call me his son (even though I fail miserably most days), in honor of the great (but humble) man that he was. Your father lives on in YOU!
As SawyerBrown said your father lives on in you. He also lives in the lives he touch. Every so often I visit the people that worked at the mill, the people he traded horses with. You leave a piece of yourself in all the lives you touch. Once someone is gone what you have are the pieces they left. You tend to to see them much easier, when you are looking for them. Find those pieces they will help you.
I rite this with a tears in my eyes I am very sorry for your loss. Slab
I am so sorry for your loss, but thank you for sharing this incredible journey with all of us. I started reading this thread Friday evening and just finished this afternoon. What a story! Almost all of my favorite memories are times I spent with my dad and my grandpa working on our farm and figuring out ways to fix all the variety of problems that come along with farming and the equipment. I still get my dad out with me at every opportunity to help with the mill and around the farm, even though he has dementia, we just take it slow and let him try to help as much as possible. He may not know my name every day but it amazes me how much he remembers about farm equipment. I cherish every day with him. Thank you again for sharing your sawmill journey with us. I have loved being able to be a part of this sawmill build through your words and pictures.
It's been several months since I worked on the mill. Yesterday, I cut two logs for stickers. I came up with (350) 54" stickers. Not a bad start or 're-start' as it were. I stacked them neatly (stickered of course) and put plenty of weight on top hoping they will dry straight(ish) :)
Today, I think I'll get back on the log deck and turner. Yesterday's restart reminded me how aggravating it is to load logs one at a time onto the carriage. It's especially taxing when I turn around and see a nice hydraulic log deck setting outside my shop ::) I'm going to measure again to make sure my previous plan will work out. If all goes well, I'll order some steel tomorrow.
Again, thank you all for the prayers and words of encouragement that have poured in since my Dad's passing. I know that he is smiling down on me, especially now that I'm continuing the journey...
-lee
smiley_clapping
I'm looking forward to seeing more of your excellent fabrication.
You're an inspiration Lee. :)
As promised, I did a little measuring today. As previously mentioned, I have three concrete piers poured to support the loading end of the log deck. They can be seen on the right side of this photo:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04694.JPG)
and here
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC04705.JPG)
Based on what I measured today, if I place the log deck's existing cross member over the concrete piers there will be an 18" gap between the front of the deck and the carriage headblocks. I'll need to bridge most of this gap in order for a log to roll smoothly from the deck to the carriage. I think I'll install the deck then take a final measurement to insure the bridge pieces are the correct length before making and bolting them on.
I spent a lot of time thinking of my Dad today. I remembered all the good times we had working on the mill. Though there were tears at times, I found joy and comfort knowing that he's smiling down on me.
-lee
And his smile of approval will give you strength throughout the rest of your life.
smiley_thumbsup
I believe you said you had a log turner. I'd put that in place before the log deck, simply because after the deck is in place, it will be a lot harder to work in that space. You'll also want to think about a concrete pad for the base of that.
Lee,
I hope I'm correct in noting
the new avatar is dandy smiley_thumbsup
Thanks for sharing this adventure,
Best
DGDrls
Ron,
That's correct. I do have a log turner which looks very much like a Meadows 100. It will need to have feet welded on to raise it to the proper height. There is enough existing concrete to hold the turner and the front legs of the deck. I'm ordering steel today which should be delivered by the end of the week. Once I have it cut to manageable lengths, I'll move the turner and deck inside the shop for a mockup and fabrication. You're correct, the turner will need to be installed first when it's time to set everything in place.
DGDrls,
Thanks! That's a picture my daughter took of my Dad the last time we fished the Cape Fear River. He LOVED saltwater fishing.
-lee
lee, I am not certain how I never seen this thread on the FF... but I missed it until this morning... I have now read it in its entirety, I feel as though I know you now as well as your dad. this very thread is what makes this family here what it is, and I do thank you for sharing a bit of your life with us. above all I want you to know that you matter. I am sorry for the loss of your dad.
Thanks Ely.
I guess your missing of this journey was my fault. I didn't post here for several months which put the journey on the 'back burner' so to speak. As stated before, my most sincere hope for this thread was for others to share and learn along the way, just as my Dad and I did. I too am sorry for the loss of my Dad however I'm happy that his suffering has ended and I am most certain that I will see him again. Until that day, I will do every thing possible to live a life that I know will make him proud to call me son.
-lee
Quote from: SPD748 on May 15, 2012, 09:02:47 AM
Oh, here is the belt lace press that I mentioned earlier. I can't find any tags or markings on it. Does anyone know who made it and when?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02728.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02730.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02733.JPG)
I have one when I get home I will take pictures and see if it is tagged
-lee
Lee,
when you get the time could you post some pictures of the edger
Thank You
archie
P.s. I have just completed reading the complete thread, outstanding documentation I am on the hunt for a mill and I too have a shop full of metalworking machines (hobby) trying to figure out how to post a photo What kind of lathe do you have
I posted a picture of my shop in my gallery
archie
I don't have a lathe though I would love to. My Dad and I looked for quite some time for a good used American made lathe several years ago. What we found were either out of my price range or totally worn out. Perhaps I'll run across one some day.
I looked at your shop picture. That's quite an outfit you've got.
My edger is still in pieces. My Dad was diagnosed with cancer right after I began working on it so I had to put that project on hold. It's an old Miner edger. Hopefully I'll be able to get things going soon.
-lee
Lee, first let me say how sorry I am for your loss. I lost two dear friends in2014 who were like father's to me. Next I want to say how impressed I am with your fabrication and machining skills. I've spent the last couple days reading this entire thread and I am looking forward to the next few chapters of this story. Way back at the beginning you posted a picture of a lacing machine. It is a Clipper lacing machine. I have it's twin that still has all the tags. Someone said that a bite from the sawmill bug never gets well. THEY ARE RIGHT! It might stop itching for awhile (mine did) but it never completely heals up and hairs over. I have always kind of wanted a circle mill but now I really want one.
Hello all,
I've been away a while sorting out where to go from here. I know that my Dad would not want me to quit, no matter what. There are so many things I need to do with my mill. This afternoon I decided to kick start things by trying to figure out why my engine is so hard to start. I picked up a brand new 8D battery to replace the 4D that I've been running since Dad and I first started the engine. The 4D is rated at ~900 cold cranking amps. The 8D is rated at 1700 cold cranking amps. I figured I could hook up the 150 lb beast to my old Detroit and spin her right over. No so says the starter. After trying the new battery I discovered that the cranking speed was no faster than with the 4D. With that, I removed the starter and discovered that, at some point, there was water penetration which corroded the internals. As luck would have it, I made this discovery too late in the day to get the starter over to a local shop who rebuilds commercial starters. I'll drop it off Monday morning.
A really odd thing occurred while I was working. I had a thought, wondering if my starter was 12 or 24 volt. After sitting and thinking about it a while I decided that I do not know how (or even if) to tell from looking at it if it's 12 or 24 volt so... I picked up my phone, scrolled through the contacts and called my Dad. It wasn't until I received the "disconnected number" message that I realized what I did. I'm not sure if tears are shed around other sawmills but I can assure you that tears are shed around mine.
-lee
I work alone most of the time now and a day never passes that one if not all of the three of my mentors aren't present in spirit. Whenever I foul up their usual wise cracks echo through the shop. When a project turns out well I thank them for their help. Your dad is with you in spirit now, enjoy his company.
Indeed, I believe that he is whiskers. I believe that he walks with me still.
-lee
Lee, the shop that is going to check your starter should be able to tell if its 12 or 24. Sometimes the tag on the Delco starters will tell you, sometimes not. Frank C.
Frank,
I've always had a single 12v battery hooked up to my mill. It started great, at first then gradually became harder and harder to start. I thought it was a battery issue however now I see that it's not. I know a 24v starter will spin with 12v at ~ half speed. I was wondering if that may be the issue before seeing the corrosion inside the starter. I'll have the starter re-built and if it's 24v, I'll add another battery. If not, I think the 8D I have will do the job. We'll see. I remember working with my Dad on big trucks which were mostly 24v start with a series/parallel switch. He told me many times this was due to the colder climates in which the trucks were expected to start. Being that my engine started fine at first, I think a re-built starter will fix the issue. I'm going to ask the shop how I can prevent the water penetration. I know, I know... a shed would do the trick. Believe me, I'm working on it :)
-lee
:P
This is the second time I've read this thread. Let me start by saying this thread is what got me to finally do something with the sawmill my dad left me after he passed away 10 years ago. My son and I started rebuilding it after he turned 14 and after working on it for a couple months we spent the warmer days this past winter logging ( I taught him to run the skidder) on weekends, and then when we started sawing he became my off bearer. And I will say it's been a great year working beside him it brought us closer together. Thanks Lee for the inspiration to finally do something with the mill my dad gave me. I feel sometimes this is why my dad left the old mill to me
Quote from: jeep534 on February 14, 2015, 10:26:01 PM
Quote from: SPD748 on May 15, 2012, 09:02:47 AM
Oh, here is the belt lace press that I mentioned earlier. I can't find any tags or markings on it. Does anyone know who made it and when?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02728.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02730.JPG)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/DSC02733.JPG)
I have one when I get home I will take pictures and see if it is tagged
-lee
This is a "CLIPPER" brand flat belt lacer. There should be an oval tag riveted in the center with the picture of a clipper ship as the logo.
Yours is more complete than mine. I have no handles nor springs and the lacing pin is totally rusted in place and has been sitting in the electrolosis tank for weeks.
Good morning all...
I wanted to post and let everyone know that I'm still here and doing well. I got side tracked with a few other projects around the house over the past few months. The most exciting project, other than my Frick of course, is this:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21697/photo.JPG)
A 1952 Monarch 60/61 series engine lathe! My Dad and I search for years for an American made lathe. As luck would have it, this one was 15 miles away from my house. I was able to demo it at it's former location before purchasing and moving it. There is one bearing issue that I'm working out however the lathe, overall, is in excellent shape. It will hold .0005". Not bad for a 63 year old machine.
My only regret is that my Dad isn't here to see it. I am certain that he would be more than proud of this machine and my ability to use it. Though I can't pick up the phone and call him, I can say it here...
Hey Dad, look what I found!!!
-lee
Wow! I'm impressed.
Most lathes that old are really ugly. Yours is a beauty. Even has what looks like a Aloris QCTP. Looks like about 18" throw?
smiley_thumbsup smiley_thumbsup
Great find.. she looks to have a good home.
Dad sees it Lee. 8) What a great find!
How did you move it? ;D
Good to see you again, be safe out there !
Frank
Good to see you back Lee
Thanks Larry. You are correct... It was sold as a 16" swing however it has a raised head which makes it an 18" swing. The tool post is a Yuasa. Very handy!
David, this machine weighs just over 6000 lbs. I didn't think my little farm tractor was up to the task so I paid a local machinery rigging company to move it. It was money well spent.
It's good to be back guys. As soon as I get the electrical sorted out on this lathe, I'll be back on the Frick. I have the steel for the log deck legs lying on the shop floor and the hydraulic controls for the deck and turner on the way. The turner will need some repairs before I can set it in place. As always, there will be plenty of pictures as, I'm well aware, if there are none... it didn't happen ;D
By the way... I hit my first ceramic insulator the other day while sawing up some SYP. It stopped the carriage dead and, worst of all, took out all my bits. I really wanted to be upset however I couldn't help but smile as I could hear my Dad say, "You finally found something harder than your head." :)
-lee
Wow.. Maybe I'll have a job for you....
My lathe is only a 14" swing and I have a bandsaw wheel the needs a crown.
The wheel is just a little to big to fit my lathe.
You have to be careful when you have a lathe and a sawmill. Both machines will actively compete with each other for your time. You will find yourself working 16 hours a day to keep up. Nice lathe. Now you can start collecting tooling. Regards, Clark
Quote from: SPD748 on September 18, 2015, 08:03:33 AMI couldn't help but smile as I could hear my Dad say, "You finally found something harder than your head." :)
It is wonderful to carry those memories.
Good find on that lathe Lee, is it single or three phase. Now comes the collection of tooling. Frank C.
Quote from: bandmiller2 on September 20, 2015, 09:11:07 PM
Good find on that lathe Lee, is it single or three phase. Now comes the collection of tooling. Frank C.
It has a 15 hp, three phase motor Frank. I called my power company who sent an engineer out to my property last week. He took some photos and measurements. I have an electrician coming today to assess what I'll need on my side of the meter. Both he and the power company engineer seemed positive on the possibility of installing three phase. I'm sure there will be an installation fee which will be the only major speed bump, if it's big $$$. If the fee is within sight of what it will cost to purchase and install a rotary phase converter, I'm pulling the trigger. Fingers crossed!
-lee
The install fee for three-phase power varies wildly according to location and utility company. The real killer is the monthly minimum charge for 3-phase service. Unless you are planning on some heavy duty turning, you may be better served with a smaller (5HP) lathe motor and a home built RPC. The present lathe motor might even make a decent idler motor for your RPC. Check the "Practical Machinist" web site for a plethora of RPC versions. Regards, Clark
Have seen good quality (commercial), higher HP RPC's in my area on Craigslist for $1500+-.
You could probably build a VFD for less if you only need 3ph for the one machine.
Is your motor straight 15, or is it dual 7.5/15?
The motor is straight 15 hp. I have explored the rotary phase converter vs VFD route. If the power company wants big $ to install the three phase, then I'll definitely go a different direction. According to the information posted on my power company's website and taking a close look at my power bill, I observed that I'm already paying a minimum fee and a premium cost per kwh at my shop. In fact, the minimum three phase (again, according to the website) would be about the same that I'm already paying.
I'm basing my budget on buying a commercially made rotary phase converter big enough to run this machine. That is a known, fixed cost. If the power company can/will install three phase for anywhere near the cost of a RPC, then I'll go that route even if it means spending a little more money. With the current machine tools I have, I can recoup the initial investment pretty quick.
When I first got the lathe, I explored the idea of installing a smaller motor in order to reduce the VFD/RPC size and cost requirement. I called the manufacturer who advised me to keep the factory motor as this beast has a lot of mass to get and keep spinning. It has a clutch so the initial startup current is reduced. I'm told that starting a 15 hp lathe with a clutch is like starting a 7.5 hp lathe that is direct drive, as far as in rush current is concerned. I'm not sure how accurate that is however the principle makes sense to me.
I've always wanted (knowing what the power requirement would be) a large, heavy American made lathe. I'd say I found it :)
-lee
Great lathe. I'm an "old iron" guy, and I can tell you from experience that 15 hp on that lathe is great, but more than likely total overkill, unless you'll be spinning 16" rounds the full length of the capacity of the lathe.
Some comparisons for you to consider:
Hendey lathe (American made beast from the 40's) 6500 lb. lathe 16" x 54" swing runs a 7.5 hp 3 phase motor.
American Pacemaker (same vintage....WWII machine) with 16X54 capacity (my buddies lathe.....used every day all day) runs a 10 hp 3 phase motor.
You could operate that lathe with ease with a 7.5 hp 3 phase motor, run with a CNC balanced 10 hp rotary phase converter (exactly what I use) and make chips all day with it. American Rotary in Wisconsin has some great deals on CNC balanced RPC's, or you could build your own for much cheaper.
Just something to think about. My Hendey would rip 1/8" chips in one pass that were blue-hot, and that motor never even hiccup'd.
Food for thought.
Lee, I hope the numbers work out for genuine three phase power, my bandsaw is located in a building with 3p and its hard to beat. I've run my milling machine with a home built rotary converter for many years. As Woody #9 says you can run with half the HP and still have an effective lathe, most of us don't take those heavy hogging cuts. Frank C.
Lee, there's another option you haven't thought about seemingly.
What about a 3 phase generator? For 1500 second hand, i'm prety sure that you could get one with 45hp. Which is what you need to start your lathe. The advantage is that you can run it on chip fat for example. Or black diesel if you realy want it. Or even, if you find an old old one, which is petrol, it could be run on woodgas from the slabs. Even the diesel can run partly on woodgas. I've seen a video on that, lately on youtube.
And the other big advantage, is that it costs for three phase power, only when you need it.
I want to build myself one, for my sawmill. With an old perkins, and a draglift motor. Which is wound rotor 82HP. Some friend told me, that i could magnetize the rotor with the current from a modern inverter welder. I think it's worth a try.
HTH.
Max.
Hey Max,
The issue I'd have with a generator is the starting/warming/running all for what might be a 5 minute machining job. Then there's the oil changes, cold starting, dead batteries... Just like a sawmill, straight electric power is far superior to a genset and/or any other internal combustion engine setup. Option A (best option) is true three phase. Option B (second best) is a rotary phase converter, with a 30 hp idler, running the original 15 hp motor. Option C (third best) is to install a smaller spindle motor, maybe 7.5 or 10 hp and run that with a smaller rotary phase converter. As stated, I'll most likely never come anywhere close to pulling a full load on the currently installed motor. In fact, I imagine that I'd be hard pressed to pull 7 - 8 hp. Also, as stated, having surplus power is always nice.
I'm still waiting to hear from the power company. I'm sweating bullets (or dollars as it were).
-lee
Hi Lee.
Well, i think downgrading would be an option. But but you might not have to downgrade that much. I know you have in the US, some 10HP single phase motors. In France, i've never seen anything bigger than 3 or 4 kw in single phase.
At 10hp, you wouldn't be that far lower compared to the original one.
hi lee if im not mistaken your on rea . years ago i had 3 phase installed and they didnt charge anything to set a transformer and feed the 3pahse to my shop i did have to set a new panel for 3 phase and there only requirement was i had to sign a 5 year contract and pay a monthly fee weather i used it or not back then i think it was 11.00 a month i think now it 15.00 or so. they are real easy to get along with hope it all goes well . in my opinon the only other way i would go is a rotary phase converter ive seen other options used and burn the motors up becouse inconsistant power supplied.
Quoteyears ago i had 3 phase installed and
mdrhom1
Click on your forum name and it will take you to where you can update your profile with your location. That way we can have an idea where you are when "years ago" happened. ;D Helps to understand your comment.
I received a letter from my power company today. This letter indicates that they will install 208Y/120, 4 wire service to my shop on a 15 kw demand contract with a minimum monthly bill of $30.60. There is no mention of installation costs. Everyone, I mean EVERYONE I've spoken with has warned me about the huge costs of installing three phase power. This has me wondering if I'm missing something. I'll put a call in to my electrician tomorrow and see if he can explain things.
-lee
Lee is your shop anywhere near your house, you can easily get single phase from three and I'am sure your electric bill is over 30 bucks. Three phase stuff is usually cheaper than single as their is less demand for it used, most businesses install new. Sometimes power co's are nervous because often only one leg of the three goes through a meter, some rascals move the single phase load to the unmetered leg. They may have corrected this. Frank C.
So...
After receiving the letter from my power company which indicated that they would install three phase service at my shop, I called my electrician and the power company engineer to get the ball rolling on the install when the engineer tells me that he's not finished sizing my contract and that he doesn't know anything about the letter I received. He tells me that there will be an installation fee however he doesn't know exactly how much so, as I've been doing for weeks now, I go back to waiting mode.
Several days go by with no word. Then, finally, on Friday he calls back and tells me...
"The total for the install will be $24,968.14 which will have to be paid before any construction can begin." After I picked my jaw up from the floor I asked him if they were going to build a new nuclear station just to power my shop. For future reference, to anyone considering a three phase install for an electric mill, my local power company wants what figures to be ~$32 per foot to run an overhead, 200 amp (208y/120v) service. If you consider that the engineer told me they would install up to 300 feet for "free" it figures to ~$55 per foot. I suppose my name can be added to the long list of "three phase is way out of my price range" hobby or small business owners.
I (as politely as I know how) declined his offer and ordered a 30hp rotary phase converter. Hopefully I can get that beast wired up soon.
-lee
Our very own Al_Smith has a Monarch. That is one heck of a machine.
:o figured it would be stupid, but not that stupid.
That's one of those situations that is so absurd, the only rational thing to do is laugh and move on to "Plan B"
You'll be fine with the converter, and if you ever decide to sell the lathe, the converter will enhance the resale value.
There are Military Surplus websites that had 100/125 Kw Gensets selling in $5000 to $10,000 range that were 220/440 3 Phase.
I have no idea what your requirements would be, but at $10,000, $16,000 would buy a lot of diesel fuel, and no monthly bill if you didn't run for a month.
Browse this site http://www.govliquidation.com/ (http://www.govliquidation.com/)
Mod: After browsing thru, there are not as many large 100 Kw there's one 230 Kw. Quite a few 60 Kw.
When we put in the new mill, we converted over to electric. We had 3 phase out on the street, and figured it would be an easy switch. The electric company came around with a high number which included transformers and the like. We ended up going with a gen set, which was much cheaper. I've been to other mills that had done the same. We still had to run our debarker with a small diesel power unit.
Im sorry to hear they got you too Lee. I was quoted at $45000 to run three phase 2 miles to my mill. Minimum monthly bill would be $350 whether we used it or not. As much as I wanted it I had to decline. Sure would be nice to flip a switch rather than fight with diesel motors in cold weather and the maintenance that goes along with them. Once you figure in the initial cost of getting three phase, wiring, soft starts etc the costs are mind boggling.
Lee, what the power co. is telling you is they don't want to be bothered with you. I have had a home built rotary converter for 40 years, easy to build and theirs scads of info on the internet. What I would do is find a 10 hp three phase for the lathe, plenty, and use the lathe motor for the rotary. Used three phase motors are cheap for reasons you know now. Junk yards or used equipment dealers have many. good luck Frank C.
Thanks for the replies guys. The whole power thing has me down a little however it will work out in the end. Hopefully I can get this beast wired up and running so I can get back on the Frick. So much to do, so little time...
-lee
The power company is updating the lines in our neighborhood to three phase. It wasn't an option before. I'm afraid to ask what the costs are to hook up to it. I heard that a one time your minimum usage needed to average $700.00 per month before they would consider hooking you up.
We are not suppose to link to to Ebay items. But there is a Ebay seller in East Earl Pennsylvania (seller name mrzeepower) that refurb larger Gensets in a variety of KW sizes. Compared to the power company numbers they are reasonable. You can change a lot of oil and do a lot of maintenance for $10,000 to $15,000.
When I installed my RPC I put it right next to my power entrance panel so I wouldn't have to buy a long length of heavy gauge wire. That was a mistake as my Bridgeport is also next to the power panel and I got tired of hearing the RPC run while operating the mill.
If I were to do it again, I would have located it outside underneath a shed roof. Almost all RPC's are noisy, some more than others...some a lot more.
Just thought to throw out a tip. I'm sure your installation will go fine. Once you have 3 phase in the shop you will wonder how you ever got along without it.
Talking about phase converters... I just bought on thinking it was a 5hp model.
It turned out to be a 20 hp. Being that I really domt need one this large how bad are they
on electric if your only running something like a 2 hp motor on it ?
I'm not sure of your question, but a RPC draws very little juice on its own.
A bigger issue is running a small motor on a large RPC. The wild leg will probably be far too hot for a long life of your little motor. It can be treated by adding capacitance to bring the phases closer together.
Thanks Larry,
I thought about the idler motor noise so I'm planing on mounting the idler in the storage room of my shop. Hopefully that will keep the whine down a little.
-lee
Lee,
Do you have any PTO stuff or where I might look. I need a #2 I think, to go on my power unit.
archie
Sorry Archie, all the PTO parts I have are currently on power units and being used. Do you need a complete PTO unit?
-lee
Lee,Would you happen to know the sae size for the pto on your 6-71
Lee do you know of a complete pto unit for a 6-71 for sale
Like some others, I have also read through this entire thread and found it very endearing. Thank you for sharing this very special time with complete strangers.
Also, I wore out a pair of shop shoes standing in front of a lathe just like that. Love that machine.
Thank you UT.
To be honest, it has been very hard to work on the mill without being overcome with emotion. Every time I try, I can't seem to get very much accomplished. I'm told time heals however no one can tell me how much. I'll keep trying...
-lee
lee
My thoughts wandered by and about you and your circular mill just a day or two ago, and thought how tough it must be to not have Dad involved. I can only imagine how that might be.
Hope it resolves for you in a most happy way.
What reminded me was seeing an abandoned barn cleaner, and thinking of your sawdust removal trials.
Lee i have been where you are at it's not easy.Many of us would not known your dad if you had not shared your journey with us.Thanks and push on through this.al
Lee, I lost my Dad in 2007 to a Accident. We was best friends where one was the other wasn't to far away pretty much all times. I had a rough time not having him around, time will make it easier for you. I was sitting at my Kitchen table one day about 3 years later having a hard time that day and I had this calming feeling come over me about Dad and since that day I have been able to pick up and move on. Hope You are able to do the same soon you will know when you get to that point.
Quote from: SPD748 on January 27, 2016, 04:44:47 PM
Thank you UT.
To be honest, it has been very hard to work on the mill without being overcome with emotion. Every time I try, I can't seem to get very much accomplished. I'm told time heals however no one can tell me how much. I'll keep trying...
-lee
Lee, I wanted to give my heart felt condolences for your loss. I too lost my dad to cancer in 2014. It has been a rough journey to say the least. He was my inspiration in everything I did. Our bandmill project came to a complete standstill. I just couldn't find the motivation to continue. Let me say that it does get easier to cope and I'm now starting to get my 'mojo' back. Your journey has been one of my favorite reads as it paralleled my own. I can't believe that I haven't been on this sight in almost two years, but I look forward to your future progress...
This is the best thread I have ever given a read, it needs to be a book, I couldn't stop reading it till now when I ran out of pages, Lee , many prayers and keep up the excellent job, can't wait to read more and see more pics, I lost my dad in 2002 to cancer, its tough but it does get easier, but you will always have off days, this story made me shed more than one tear.
My father has been gone over 5 years. My family has felt the loss acutely, but I know what he would say, "What's all the fuss? I had to go, just like you will someday. Now, saddle up and get after the job you set for your self today." I can hear and see him say it. Regards, Clark
I received a message from a fellow forum member today. It reminded me that I started a journey which I need to continue. I think of my Dad each and every day however, he wouldn't want me to focus on what is lost but what is gained and what is to come. I have a log turner and a live log deck that needs to be installed. Stay tuned...
-lee
:P popcorn_smiley 8)
Lee, may the strengh be with you! ;D
Can't wait to see
Lee,
We never get over those that pass, we just learn to live with it. Hoping you get that mill up and running., let me know if I can help.
Good to hear from you. Holler when you need another set of hands.
Frank
Thanks for the thoughts and offers guys! I may take you up on them.
To get back on track where I left off...
I have a chain type log turner and a live log deck that need to be installed. I'll have to come up with some way to keep the turner from pushing the carriage off the track. A friend sent me some pictures of his mill that has a turner and deck. He has two pieces of angle iron, one on the track and one on the carriage. They 'interlock' when the carriage is on the deck side of the mill. I'm thinking of doing something similar unless anyone here has a better idea?
I have a hydraulic pump (~10 gpm at sawing rpm) and tank (20 gallons) already. I'll need some valves and hoses. Also, I think I'll need to replace a few cylinders here and there. The hydraulic motors on the deck and turner work great. Hopefully 10 gpm will be enough oil to get things moving.
I never did decide exactly how close to mount the log deck. When we left off I think the consensus was to leave a small gap between the deck and carriage so that the two can't come into contact. Two or three inches should do. I'll have to add some extensions to the front of the deck which will make the turn down arms useless. I was thinking today about how to replace the turn down arms with longer arms that would act as the extensions to allow the logs to roll onto the carriage but they would fold up to allow me to walk down the length of the track frame to dog. If I weld on extensions, I'll have to step over them to dog logs which would get kind of old real quick I think.
What do you guys think? Solid or movable extensions?
-lee
Fold down arms that lock when up to keep the logs from rolling off.
You really need a space for walking...
Thanks Kbeitz. I think I can make some arms from 1" plate that will work. The turn down arms are hydraulically operated so I'll use that circuit and linkage to operate the extensions. If I don't modify the cross member on the deck, there will be 16" between the leading edge of the deck and the carriage with the extension arms in the up position. That doesn't sound like much however that is enough room to walk I think. The turner has to go in there somewhere, between the first and second string on the deck I think. I'll pull everything back in the shop and get it all mocked up to be sure the distances will work out before getting too carried away.
-lee
I think I would be lookin at 36-48"...
Lee,
this is one of the threads I have been following. I am glad you are back posting on the forum . keep up the good work.
archie
Lee, I looked through your gallery and was wondering what happened to the edger.
Happy Hunting
archie
bump
Lee,
I re read the complete thread all 55 pages. ( it took a couple of days) the only question I have concerns height, obviously there needs to be a pit under the blade. how long are the legs under the track and the height of the sawyers deck, from the pictures it looks like where you are walking is too high as you would have to stoop to operate the carriage maybe I am mistaken.
This has came back around as a mill I was around and offbeared on about ten years ago has become available. The mill is complete and under a shed. It is a 00 Frick, the track is steel the husk is steel and it has a 353 Detroit. The carriage is wood also the steel parts on the carriage are very worn and in need of complete rebuild . I have added some pictures to my gallery none of the photos are of the mill in question.
As always thank you for your time and effort to document your "sawmill Journey" it will be a resource for all for years to come.
Thank You again
archie
Hey Archie,
Sorry it's taken so long to reply. I would definitely do things differently if I had it to do over again. First, I would have cast a pit underneath the saw, as deep as I could make it. That dust/chunks/bark/whatever really needs a place to go. Second, I would have made the sawyers deck about 8" lower. The headblock height needs to be halfway between the sawyers knee and hips. This would allow for less bending and an overall more comfortable work experience. It's certainly usable as it is however it could be better. I can't remember the exact measurements. I'll measure the legs and deck tomorrow and let you know. Thanks so much for taking the time to read my journey! You don't know what it means to me to know that others have gained something from the work of my Dad and I.
-lee
Good to see you back Lee.
Speaking of turners.I have one chain turner on my 70 and there are times when i really wish i had two.Just food for thought.Al
Lee, have you been sawing with this lately?
As I've always said a fella needs to build two mills, be they circular or band, one to learn and the next to be just right. Ether the logs are getting bigger and heavier or I'm getting older I may build a turner for my Chase De Lane. Frank C.
Quote from: bandmiller2 on August 03, 2018, 04:24:56 PM
As I've always said a fella needs to build two mills, be they circular or band, one to learn and the next to be just right. Ether the logs are getting bigger and heavier or I'm getting older I may build a turner for my Chase De Lane. Frank C.
Only two? I need a third one to correct the mistakes learned on the first 2.
Giving this a bump to bring it to those who have not read it, start at page 1, you want to read the whole thing. @SPD748 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11697) if you are still out there we would love to hear from you.