Sawmill Building - Enclosed or Open

[YellowHammer]

I thought I had this one figured out, I was going to get a red iron, open sided 40x60 or so building put up, with 20 feet between side wall columns so I could move logs and lumber in and out as needed.  This would provide good ventilation for my diesel mill and plenty of room for the edger, log deck and conveyors. I could bring material in through the walls or end openings.

However, my current sawmill shed is open sided on two sides, and with all the rain lately, a wet mess with the wind blowing the rain sideways seemingly from all directions  Also, it's cold and windy in the winter, hot in the summer.  So I'm thinking of building a conventional, fully walled building with a big 20 foot wide door or three, similar to our current warehouse, and move everything inside there. This would present problems with ventilation and sawdust (I would have a blower) but I was wondering what your experiences and choices would be, pro or con.  

Seems like it would be more comfortable but more problematic.  What do you think?  I've done lots of searches and seen lots of nice buildings, open and closed, but am wondering about the actual practicality of sawing and edging inside a building.  Also, is a 40x60 big enough?  Dirt floor to save my feet, or concrete, which is easy to clean?

[terrifictimbersllc]

Why aren't you electric on the mill?

[customsawyer]

When you get the perfect building figured out. Please let me know. Doesn't seem to matter what I build it is never big enough. Things never flow as easy as in my planning stage. Operating in a controlled environment sounds great. Walking on concrete all day not so much. Having a nice building without concrete doesn't sound like to good idea.    

[stavebuyer]

Floor=concrete. I tried dense grade for easier walking and it is but the packed sawdust picks it up even if you hand scoop.
Walls=2 sides open and hang shade cloth on the others. The light colored shade cloth was about the best money I ever spent. I figured it would help with the dreaded July sun but never expected how much it would help with winter wind and rain. Stays light and dry inside. Hang it like a shower curtain and its out of the way in seconds.



 

[longtime lurker]

Closed sheds are loud... Sound can't get out, and there's no earmuffs can dull the noise of a working mill in a tight space.

 If possible I'd site so the prevailing weather side was to one end and close that in, but other than that shadecloth awnings will keep the worst of it from blowing through. 

[Southside]

I would go open side with roll down curtains like those in a dairy free stall.  You really don't want walls come August. That is how I designed mine, if it ever stops raining long enough I will get to actually complete it too. My main open span saw area is 36' x 48' but the mill will go out in it's own "dog nose" area 20' x 30' with the deck feeding it. This way it's at one end and lumber travels in a linear fashion from the mill into the main area for edging, Re-saw, stacking, etc leaving plenty of movement room.  Keeps the diesel and worst noise further away this way too and I can saw with the main part buttoned up without worry. 

[moodnacreek]

Southside beat me to it. a curtain barn for the roll up openings. But here is an idea; everything in there raised off the floor on the least and smallest legs. Have all baseboard corners radii [curverd , not square].  In an indoor sawmill you will spend a considerable amount of time cleaning up and I use a leaf blower every day after a quick sweep. Square corners and machines without feet mess up the process.

[Magicman]

Dirt floor to save my feet, or concrete

You have plenty of recommendation regarding your building, so I will only address your feet.  Dirt will not save your feet, but proper boot insoles will.  A podiatrist (foot doctor) prescribed mine and they were ~$40.

[WV Sawmiller]

   Definitely concrete floor for easier maintenance. I like the shade dry option for a couple of walls to keep the rain from blowing in.

   Might consider a gap of a foot or so at the bottom so you can blow or wash the sawdust, dirt and dust out for easy maintenance too. I'd keep the maintenance options and requirements in mind for everything you build.

[wisconsitom]

I'm pondering the same issue.  When I build my pole shed, I want to have a living space area, with small bedroom, kitchenette, bathroom, and then an open, uninsulated shed area for where the mill may go.  As such, I too want a 20-foot opening....likely a sliding shed door...to obtain this desired opening.  I am hopeful that the required header for so large an opening will not be cost-prohibitive.

I like the dairy barn curtain idea, but I want stuff secured when I'm not around.  I plan to store a bit of equipment in the same area as where the mill might end up.  We're going to need locking doors.

20 feet is the longest material I expect to need to be handling, once I start sawing up beveled siding from my larch trees.  I would not want to limit this dimension, as certain customers are sure to want longer lengths.

tom

[DARRELL1972]

I am going with a pole barn buiding,half siding with dirt floor. We saw very little from September to March so we want shade and some breeze while being under cover during rain showers.

[Darrel]

A wood floor is also an option. Not nearly as hard as concrete and way easier to keep clean than dirt. Expensive, but if you have a sawmill that will make it a bit more affordable. 

[Percy]

My 40x100 opensided building was a compromise between cost and function/durability. MY LT70 is on a 35x10 cement pad but is elevated about 5 feet with a steel substucture. The rest of the mill has a wooden floor built heavy enough to accept the weight of my all wheel steer bobcat(aprox 8500 lbs) and lumber when I need to keep it out of the rain/snow. I would love to have walls of some sort that were moveable but  it just isnt in the cards. Southsides roll up curtains idea is something I will ponder. 

This was yesterday
 



Construction phase(2015)


 

I would like to have an acre of roof....but if I somehow did, I would need two acres.... 

[Darrel]

What do roofs and clamps have in common ?  You never have enough of either. 

[Crusarius]

Hangar door all 4 sides  Open the doors when you are working close them when you are done.

Definitely concrete floors.

I do wonder why you are not electric yet. for the money you could sell that diesel for you could replace 2 engines with electric motors. Maybe more.

[timbercrack]

Me and my buddy currently building a 20x40 with 20'opening on one end and 14' opening on the other. 24' openings on both of the long walls set closer to the 20' opening end...

[Brad_bb]

With my experience milling both inside a heated shop and outside in winter, I'll take milling inside all day long.  I'm going electric soon too.  We've had enough ventilation of the gas engine with as often as we open and close the overhead door, but it's not ideal, hence why I'm going electric.  The biggest advantage is no wind to blow dust in your face.  That has been a huge problem when I take the mill onsite and mill outside.  In summer we have an industrial fan blowing from start of the bed town towards the end on the operator.  Works just fine.  We bring logs in through the 20' wide overhead door.  In summer we keep it open.  In winter we heat the inside and only open to go in or out with the forklift.

[Hilltop366]

I wonder what the economics of a small door or opening with a log deck feeding a conveyer to bring the log in length wise verse the extra large door?

If you were going to have a log deck anyway it would be mostly large door and header verses conveyer.

[YellowHammer]

I may go electric in the future, but I don't have any 3 phase except by phase converters, which I use already and are maxed out.  So I'd need to pull more single phase, new infrastructure, and new phase converter.  My current mill is diesel, and I figured when it died or gave me any trouble I'd convert to electric, but I think it knows that, so has been on its best behavior.

I like the curtains but I wonder how long they would last?

I really like the mill sheds and buildings with the huge wooded post and beam construction.  They look great, but nobody around here builds them and I just don't the time anymore.  They would give me the rustic look I'd like to have.

Our other building has a concrete floor, but wow, did that cost some money.  6 inches thick, truck after truck after truck.  I tried an experiment under the shed wing where I keep my edger.  I went to one of out hills and dug down to true Alabama red clay fill dirt and backfilled with it, building up a clay floor, and then hosed it down and let it settle.  Its as hard as a rock and I routinely blow out under the edger with a leaf blower, and the clay just sits there.

I hadn't thought of the airplane hanger type building, where basically the walls raise up.  

Once of the things I like about the full open structure is that if I need to expand, I can just add another section.  Customsawyer has a few dozen acres under roof (it seems like it anyway) and he was able to put new additions of pretty easy, I believe.  

I'm not sure how I could do the wood floors, around here, if a hunk of wood is near the dirt, the termites and beetles are in it almost immediately.  I'd have to use pressure treated wood.  I think I watched some of Bibbymans old video and he used wood floors.

Noise would be an issue, but I wear hearing protection.  I don't see how anything could be louder than that screaming edger. 

One thing for sure, whether open or closed building, the local Fire Marshall and my insurance company watch me like a hawk, since we also have retail spaces with lots of foot traffic.  So cleanliness and cleaning are important.    

[Southside]

I like the curtains but I wonder how long they would last?

20 years and counting with less than agreeable cows on our old place.  What about dead sand?  I was actually thinking about flooring this weekend when edging a pile of siding.  My plan had been to do concrete, but running that siding made me realize that I would probably end up matting all of the concrete just to keep walking at the end of the day, so spend more money on top of a pile of money going that route.  Then it hit me that we had actually done away with concrete in the loafing barn and gone to all dead sand with mats over it, the stuff packs hard enough that it won't move but still affords cushion, it was very obvious with the improved leg and hoof conditions that there is a marked difference.  Cleaning is not an issue and if you had to water it down the sand remains pourus.  I am going to take a hard look at going that route here instead.  

[redbeard]

We're in same boat figuring out a covered area. Finding out it's getting longer  if your mill can cut 24' long you need 3 x that length and alot of real estate around building for fork lift too get in on all sides.

[YellowHammer]

@Southside logger , what is dead sand?  Where do you get it? Just regular old sand?

Interestingly enough, after my rip replacement, I put down a nice big piece of rubber floor matting about 3/4" thick with 1 inch holes in it, I forgot where I got it, but it definitely makes a difference on my legs.  

Our clay is so hard that when they built our other building, they couldn't drill through it, they had to cut it with an excavator.  I'd brought in several feet in some areas and it will scuff with a shine when its walked on enough.

I'd really like to have a huge open spaced timber frame structure, old school.  Kind of like how Jack Daniels, up the road, builds things.  New stuff made to look old.  Surprisingly, we've more than one customer tell us they prefer the look of our old place, the old barn, over our shiny new building.

I appreciate all the input, some really good ideas.  Thanks.
 

[Peter Drouin]

Mines only 24' wide x 100 one way, With most of it open I like my 45' door. All concrete floor 6" thick. 
All wood post some ATT poles I had some. The rest 16' Hemlock logs.
When I put it up I made the 45' door side facing do South for the low sun in the winter. Sommer time the sun is high. 12' top of the door.  The ridge pole is 24' off the floor vent on the ends.
The board and baton back side keeps the Northwind off me. I don't have sawdust in the face.
To me, the way the mill barn is facing is just as important too,

The snow and rain will come in 6" or so, the overhang is important.
What works up here in the cold North.


 


 


 


 


 


 


And don't hit a woodpile with a cat that has claws.


 


 

smiley_big-grin2

 

[Southside]

Well as far as regular old sand it depends on what your regular old sand is.  Under a microscope dead sand is jagged, not round, so it locks together, packs and stays put, but unlike clay will drain.  Beach sand tends to be more round particles so it won't stay in one place very well when you step on it, which is why running on the beach is so much fun.  Once packed our dead sand floor was solid, but not hard if that makes sense.  You could stab into it with a tool, but a hoof would not cut in.  I would think local quarry would know if they have it or not.    

Our red clay will get hard like that, especially if it has been run over, tread on, etc when wet and allowed to dry - it's brick material for a reason.  But get it wet enough and it turns to grease on the surface and then soup that sticks to everything, almost like gumbo clay out on the high plains.  

[Southside]

Peter - Which was worse - backing into the pile or the sound of pulling away after?  :D

[mtoo747]

Peter - Which was worse - backing into the pile or the sound of pulling away after?  :D

That made me laugh  : Not that i've every done anything similar ... 

[Peter Drouin]

I try to be care full with the cat, I need to slow down some. ;D

[Lawg Dawg]

 

 




  

 

My sawmill shed is small and open, but definetly old school! I built it for my first LT-15, I have the 40 crammed in there now, time for an addition! I would'nt have no other style building on my property. My customers come here for that....I could'nt run them out of here yesterday  :laugh:

[longtime lurker]

If the issue is lack of three phase I'd hang with it until the current diesel is up for replacement then install a generator. You'll run a 50kva on about 2 gallons an hour, or 75 kVa on about 3 gallons an hour. (50 is enough for most anything + blower as long as you dont want to run it all at once. 75 will run a 4 header and blower.) You can rig it up far enough away that it isnt thumping in your ear.  The only issue you'll have with it is kicking yourself later for taking so long to do it.

[Kwill]

 




  

 

My sawmill shed is small and open, but definetly old school! I built it for my first LT-15, I have the 40 crammed in there now, time for an addition! I would'nt have no other style building on my property. My customers come here for that....I could'nt run them out of here yesterday  :laugh:

Lawg dawg what are the demensions on your saw shed?

[boonesyard]

I'm going through the same consternation right now trying to decide how we want our sawshed designed. I know that whatever we come up with, we'll wish it was bigger in a short time. I've decided to wall up the west and north prevailing wind walls, and drop curtains for the south and east when needed. Also going with compacted class 5 floor, but we're working on a sawdust conveyer system that's movable (we'll see how that design comes along). 

I know one thing, don't take your roof load designs for granted. Figure out what your area requires, and then add to it. This is what I found at our city shop on Monday morning. The 50x120 building is 45 years old and was in excellent condition, but the snow last Saturday did it in. Not fun  :(

 

[longtime lurker]

owww that hurts. Snow loading isnt something I have to worry about anyway.... 100mph winds yah, but not snow.

I love Peter Drouins' sheds. That entire timber frame construction thing always gives me a buzz and yanno it's the right way to build a sawmill shed. We're all of us in the business of wood, not running foundries. You want to advertise what can be done with post and beam, you arent doing yourself any favours by building your own spaces with RSJ's.

This mill shed design issue is something near and dear to my heart, for the simple reason that I have never had the luxury of having to build my own sheds. Prior to my commencing work from here this joint was a transport/wharehousing facility with some manufacturing capability. SO what I've got is a whole lot of shed.... but a lot of it is shed that was designed to handle palletised freight not lumber in packs. Along the way of putting up with this I've had a fair old shot at a graduate degree in how NOT to build mill buildings, and done a whole lot of dreaming about what I'd do different if I started with a blank slate.


1. You need a master plan. Not just this upgrade but the next and the one after that and some room just in case. This show is a cobbled together mix of sheds where they started with a farm shed mid slope , then did a skillion at the back, then attached at the front by digging into the hill, then dug out some more and attached again, then went 30 yards away and started again on a different bench height on the hill. Sounds good but digging back into a hill gives you access issues on 3 sides and you've got a shed to the front so doorways are at a premium.

2. You got to separate stuff. Thats about a couple of things... having dedicated spaces for certain tasks. It's about efficient use of space. Its about waste removal and not having an inch of fine sawdust in the machine shop because its downwind and attached to the drymill. It's also about fire containment. As I slowly demolish buildings here (with some help from those 100mph winds) and build new ones I am determined to let it sprawl out more. There is a time cost in that with regards say getting packs of wood from the mill to storage, then pulling them back to machine... but fire is the enemy of a sawmill and yanno a fire in any one shed - greenmill, timber storage/drying area, kiln, drymill, workshop/ machinery parking space.... should be able to stay contained there and not spread to other spaces. Its a terrible thing to lose the mill or all your lumber stocks, but it's a whole lot more survivable than losing both.

3. Water storage tanks. I'm lucky compared with some of you guys, I dont have to worry about having water freeze solid in storage. We have 3 x 6000 gal tanks, all interconnected and able to be isolated and those are straight up - water for fire fighting - tanks. If I havent got a fire stopped by the time the fire brigade pumpers get here its not going to be stopped, but I've got enough water to back them up to give a fair chance once they do get here of containing any fire to a given area. If I was doing that again I'd just go with an inground swimming pool.... heated for some of ya's.... but its tax deductible if its a water storage area for fire control yanno

4.Concrete floors: I love 'em. You know how some people are a woman trapped in a mans body or vice versa? Right... well I'm a big sawmiller trapped in a little sawmillers chequebook. I've been at this now for 10 years on my own account, starting as a little sideline thing with a Lucas Mill to currently running around 400 MBF a year, and I expect to double capacity in another 12 months, and double it again the year after that. A lot of that is because I tend to buy large capacity equipment second hand and grow into it. Thing with big toys is they are heavy, and they need sizeable footings, and that means serious concrete floors. If you cant bolt them down they vibrate and thats bad for the machine and bad for the finished product.
And its easy to keep clean, and it doesnt burn if the place catches fire, and the termites have to cross it to get to the wood so I can keep them under control. It also helps make flat lumber... I started with levelling wood bearers on a dirt floor to put lumber stacks on - there was always some settlement, and so much work. Just bang your bearers on the nice level concrete floor and start going up, and I can see the difference in how flat the lumber lays going into the planers.
The only shed space I have thats dirt floored is the machinery parking area under the old extension, and thats because the dirt catches the oil drips better under some of my old darlings. I've done the dirt floor thing, and I know how good a properly formed and packed dirt floor can be (think clay tennis court) but concrete is so much better.

5. Think about the direction your weather comes from, and prevailing breeze. You want air to flow through the wood in the drying sheds so they need to be sited across the wind. In an ideal world you find a way so that the greenmill, which is where the worst of the sawdust always is, is the most downwind building so that particulate from there isnt blowing through everything else. Everything here is coated in sawdust... its up in the Z purlins of the roofs slowly eating the galvanising away, its on the tops of drums of oil in the workshop, and anything left open on the bench has to be covered if you want it to stay clean.

6. Think about drainage. One thing this place does have right is being built on the slope of a hill I dont have too many drainage issues, and mostly the ones I have are about slowing the water down rather than mud puddles in the yard. I have no idea how many tons of rock have gone into this yard between me and the transport company before me but... lots.

TBC...

[moodnacreek]

My sawmill building , a 2 story gambrel roofed barn was kinda cute when we built it and before additions where put on. Got a lot of complements but I wouldn't do it again. It should have been a ugly shed roof because snow keeps sliding off for days after a good storm.

[PAmizerman]

Here is my latest brainstorm for the building I want to build.


 

[YellowHammer]

I never considered water storage, I could use a swimming pool to wash the sawdust off,  :D

My current sawmill shed is a converted old barn, 48 ft x 48 ft, nice ambiance but a little too small.


The new building is 40x100, big enough but expensive and looks like a warehouse.  Great for our showroom, but not what I'm looking for in a sawmill shed.  



It would be cool to have something like Peter's 45 foot door opening in a wooden structure, or like some of the other's.  We just don't see anything like that down here.  Everybody builds with metal.  

[Bruno of NH]

I stoped at Peter Drouin's yesterday for a visit. 
His sawmill sheds just have that look.
It says New England 
I think folks stop there for that and the great service.

[Don P]

I am seeing some very optimistic beam sizing in the pics above. For large spans especially do your homework, if solid sawn is getting out of hand consider LVL's which are over twice the strength of most solid sawn and then steel if that isn't working. Remember in steel you can get some very rigid, wind resisting connections, especially nice in a partially open building. You can always wrap steel in wood for pretty.

[YellowHammer]

That is also in my mind, although I didn't mention it.  I live in a county where building inspections are a reality, and engineered drawings to code are required, with licensed contractors required for both our building and construction workers for structures used for a business.  The steel building quotes I have gotten so far all have PE stamped drawings.  The material for a 40x60 red iron "kit" are in the $20K range, available from several of the big steel building companies on the web.  I'd have to find my own construction crew, or do it myself, but who has the time?

I'd have no idea how to do that for a wooden open span structure.  I'm sure it can be done, I just wouldn't know how.  

Our old barn was grandfathered in.  Any new work, whether electrical, structural, etc means the exemption is voided.  So in many ways, to expand it isn't really an option, for the money, I might as well get something new.         

[Crusarius]

What about steel building then build out all the columns to look like wood? Definitely be a ton of work but could be a nice touch. Showoff lots of things you can do with wood. Also make plenty of ways to hide wires, air lines, whatever.

[wisconsitom]

Yellowhammer, what mean you by red iron?  Just curious, and not familiar with meaning of phrase.

thanks,
tom

[Bruno of NH]

YH
The city I used to live in needed permits,drawings,stamps and inspections for every step.
Built a lot of things in that town .
You don't have a lumber yard that does plans,stamps and has a install crew?
LaValley building supply does this in NH,Vt,and Maine.
I did some projects with them when I had a crew.They have a wood truss shop.
I built 2 big truck garages for one of my old customer's.
It's very nerve racking putting up 40 ft clear span 6/12 wood roof trusses.
Until it's all braced and sheathed the chances of it falling in on its shelf is real.
My nerves can't take that stuff anymore.

[Bruno of NH]

Red iron building are built around here.
But aren't the best when you add heat to them, lots of problems with ice build up on the roofs and mould problems .
When the chunks of ice slide off they smash on the side walls and can hurt someone.

[btulloh]

Considering spans, permits, insurance, time, and flexibility it's hard to beat those steel buildings.  Form follows function.  Leave a side or two open, then close it later if you change your mind. 

You can build a timber-framed office for eye candy.

[wisconsitom]

I too am a "form fits function" guy.  I like it when everything looks like what it is!  Steel pole buildings are just fine in my world.  Probably something I will end up doing at some point-contracting for a steel pole building, to house my sawmill and to enclose a small living quarters.  And thanks YellowHammer.  I would actually enjoy owning a building like that.  I do suppose these iron-framed buildings cost more initially than more conventional post-framed steel buildings.

tom

[btulloh]

The floor question seems more complex than the building question to me.  I'm intrigued by some of these alternatives to concrete that have been mentioned.  I suppose the floor could even be a hybrid, with some concrete where necessary.  I wonder how hard-packed clay or sand holds up to tire traffic from fork lifts or loaders. 

[longtime lurker]

My preference for big spans would still be wood posts and beams, but go to web trusses built from gal pipe for the rafters and timber batten rather than Z or C sections. Corrosion prevention and all that -I've got a big problem coming in about 15 years with all the cheap sheds here.... they've got back to back C sections for rafters and z's for purlins and the sawdust hangs in them and if you get up and scrape it away you can see the wood acid is slowly eating into the galvanising. Gotta be someone who can draw a plan, and I'd rather pay him and build with wood which we all know we can kinda make cheap than pay for steel

And dont ever believe they're strong just because they've got an engineers stamp. Everything here is built to hurricane standards, they can withstand 200mph wind gusts because an engineer said so.





 

Yeah right!

That was my mill shed post TC Yasi, the thing was a write off. Best guess is she got enough wind pressure inside to lift it and the apex haunches failed, and then she dropped in the middle and the posts bent as it came down. I dont got much faith in engineer approved design any more for some reason. :D

[redbeard]

Yellowhammer,
Your big showroom Bld has alot of potential for curb appeal, have you thought of siding over the metal clad walls with wood, board n bat or live edge lap siding maybe trim the jambs of roll up doors in bigger beam or log look.
Install graphics  of old scenes and your logo on metal roll up doors. 
Just a idea!
Curb appeal is what customers brag about.

[YellowHammer]

Yellowhammer, what mean you by red iron?  Just curious, and not familiar with meaning of phrase.

thanks,
tom

Red iron is an industrial steel, coated with red primer.  Its claim to fame is easy install, wide open spans and most of the commercial buildings here use red iron.
Its the type of building Longtime shows in his photo.
Btulloh,
We have some rock hard clay here, I use it on some of our floors, and if its moist when its put down and vehicles drive on it to pack it down, when it dries, its like asphalt, maybe just a little softer, but not much.  
Some folks here will get pallets of Portland cement, and till it into the clay with their garden tiller, and when it cures, it is just dirty looking concrete.

[moodnacreek]

Not the subject but- I tried to get the local building inspectors office to let me, the local sawmill issue building permits, save the town money, they wouldn't go for it.

[Peter Drouin]

The door on the mill is a red iron header. Engineered to code. the rest is built on the boco codes
we have. 
But me being a builder for the last 50 years I have some Ideas in this live free or die state. :D ;)


 


 


I have a wood floor in the Stake room, works good for me.


 

[longtime lurker]

I'm a certified hardwood structural grader... I've had a few go-arounds over the years with building inspectors, but at the end of the day one if us was an engineer and one of us was licensed to issue a structural grade to a piece of wood. Aside from one guy its all been good after the initial explanation of how grading works. Always gotta be one right?