Is putting on Anchorseal on a cut down dead standing tree just as important as a live one ?
Likely that is a "yes".
The dead tree will still lose a lot of moisture out the end grain and will start the checking. That leads to loss in lumber recovery.
Decision is then left to either anchorseal or not depending on acceptance (importance) of less checking or more checking.
or leave it on the stump. either way it makes the moisture exit via the side of the log. and less out the end. if it leaves faster by the ends, the shrinking will split the fibers as they shrink relative to fibers further in. If it was really dry, like same moisture throughout you would be fine. could put a meter on the center of the cut surface and see what the moisture is there. it is the differential MC of core to the outside that causes the splits.
I have some staves on a half full trailer waiting to finish a load to make the ride that are starting to dry check from western sunset and wind. Think i will try watering ends with my pump sprayer this morning.
I cut down and slabbed a standing dead elm, and it felt dry to touch. after making 2-inch slabs, moisture meter reading was still over 32%
Quoteit is the differential MC of core to the outside that causes the splits.
that; or maybe more the tangential shrinkage along the annual rings, being that the annual rings are longer the further away from the pith center and the exposed end grain cells drying below fiber saturation point (around 30%) . Annual rings are shorter near the pith than further away. https://www.carolinatimberworks.com/why-do-timbers-split-and-crack/
that is a great article. I think the end seal is to keep the ends from drying much faster than further in and trying to get the water to leave in a more uniform rate along the length of the log including the ends. If the dead standing tree/log were uniformly dry to say 7% when cut, then no you would not need end sealer. tangential cracks will occur in logs, but end checks can be reduced by end sealer if the log is still above the EMC for the area.
Yes indeed great article 👍
Titebond. Has anyone ever used it ? Seen a video of a guy that turns bowls and has used Anchorseal and other products including Elmers glue and Titebond out performed them all as a end sealer
I have use 3 types of Titebond as an adhesive, but not as an end sealer. also, the dark.
I'm going to get a gallon of the premium and try it and give a little feedback. Only downside I see is brushing it on vs spraying it if you have a bunch to do all the time
I use anchorseal often. Most logs I have, I just let them go. If I have a really good log I will use it to seal it up. I apply one coat, go to the other end and do the same. Come back to first side which will usually have taken a set by then and apply another coat, then do the other end again. Its a wax emulsion so it hangs around a bit, but weathering will wear it down, so you have to check on it and reapply as needed.
Folks use the common garden sprayer mostly. UC Coatings(makers of anchorseal) say to use a nozzle opening at .021" or .55 mm or larger. So you would have to modify it a bit I think. Never done it myself. UC Coatings also sell backpack sprayers for $170.
Lots of AnchorSeal threads in the forum. Just do a search.
i have used a brush, and a 9 inch roller. have to pay attention and roll uphill or you will "blop" more on the ground than the log. I bought an less expensive (HF) pressure painter, and love it to spray. the more complex the system gets, the more you waste. I tried a garden pump sprayer and never got it right. even ordered a flat larger orifice.
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I use the UC sprayer, its the best I've used and it's portable, never needs cleanup, and will spray a thousand bdft in a couple minutes.
I don't use Anchorseal anymore, I use one of several other, less expensive and just as effective industrial versions, repackaged for retail sale.
I need to do the backpack sprayer. YH what was the other alternatives you had mentioned before if you don't mind telling again. Thanks
I think its pretty well proven that latex paints dont breath. Ive seen plenty of shed and deck lumber that was just good looking latex over sawdust by then. Why wouldnt it work as an endsealer? Everyone is always tossing the tail end of old latex cans.
I typically use the Kilngspors or similar. They don't charge much for shipping, and have never lost my order, unlike other places.
However, if you check the MSDS, the green sealer is made and rebottled by several different companies, so I will do a google search, and get it for whom ever sells and can deliver it for less.
I personally don't like paint, simply because it is messy. I apply sealer with a backpack sprayer, and it never needs to be cleaned, sprays wide and fast, and when I spray packs on my asphalt or concrete, the green sealer overspray will not be visible once it dries. No mess on the wood or me.
i just figured the cheapest 6" throw away roller and paint can tailings. i certainly wouldnt go through the trouble of solvent cleanup on a sprayer.
I clean the sprayer about every 2 years. the wax emulsion does not dry hard, more like wax. It has stayed on the top of that 5-gallon bucket, even over winter inside. the stuff in the gun and hose remains liquid. I have a neighbor who paints, and I get his left over. often full new gallons that were left over after a job. better than nothing, but prob not as good as as a dedicated end sealer.
Quick and easy putting the Titebond on. Poured a little in my throw away rubber glove and smeared it on and worked perfectly and fast. Will see how it works.
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Has anybody used this stuff?
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Quote from: Walnut Beast on February 19, 2022, 07:12:39 AM
Has anybody used this stuff?
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Walnut, do a forum search, this has been discussed many times. in the last few years. There are so many different threads refencing it that I could pick one to link here. It's pricey, but you will find guys here that have used it.
Mike,
Latex paint performs poorly. Better than nothing but much less effective than the wax based commercial end sealers. I have also used the kool seal aluminum roofing coating but it is much too difficult to work with. If you get any of it on anything, including yourself, it is on forever.
Thanks Old Greenhorn I will do that 👍
Quote from: Walnut Beast on February 19, 2022, 07:12:39 AM
Has anybody used this stuff?
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Meaning "used it for end sealer" ? Usually used to stabilize wood and not discussed as an end-grain sealer.
The Pentacryl website shows it being used on cookies which are end grain. But how would it hold up when used outdoors? No answers there.
Its way too expensive too------$55-$70 a gallon depending on what quantity you buy.
I usually cut Anchorseal and the generics by 25%, simply because I think they are factory emulsified too thick, and this dilution makes them spray better and I don't see a decrease in effectiveness.
I know Anchorseal would have a conniption if they heard that, but I've done it for many years with no problems.
Quote from: beenthere on February 19, 2022, 11:18:47 AM
Quote from: Walnut Beast on February 19, 2022, 07:12:39 AM
Has anybody used this stuff?
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Meaning "used it for end sealer" ? Usually used to stabilize wood and not discussed as an end-grain sealer.
Like Rustic said I was reading the same thing. I looked at previous posts and seen a lot of talk but didn't see really anybody using it. Somebody is using the stuff since it's offered in 30 and 55 gallon containers
Moving on up with the big boys 😂. Done playing around and getting laughed at rubbing the Titebond glue on the ends of the logs. So I have some Anchorseal, the cordless backpack 🎒 sprayer and some of their other goodies on the way
Nice!
I doubt you'll be disappointed, it's a very good product.
Is the Anchorseal Classic that much better than the Anchorseal Two. They made a mistake and sent me the wrong stuff
i have used both and they are fine. not worth shipping it back. the 2 has some plant-based extenders, vs just wax emulsion. I like the added color and some antifreeze in mine as well. You can let them know but it should all be fine.
The difference in the two anchorseals is like the new and old refrigerants in A/C systems. The older is certainly better.
They made a "green" version of anchorseal to remove petroleum distillate waxes. They use paraffin wax now. It is runnier, you have to double coat and it does not protect as well. I am a woodturner as well as lumber jockey. I definitely prefer Classic AnchorSeal.
I also tried both and only order the Classic now.
I like the old stuff better with most things. if it was their mistake, they could send you the original stuff, and cannot imagine they will ask you to return the other bucket. I got 5 gallons of the AS 2 when in KC and got it from a bulk container and saved the shipping as I was there in person. It is ok.
YH What do you cut the Anchor seal with?
I have a customer that used latex paint on his walnut. I had troubles drying his wood in my kiln until I cut the painted ends off as it went in the kiln. His wood dried better and faster after that.
I believe the moisutre needs to come out the ends in the vacumm kiln. Anchor seal melts off in the heat and I find nothing on the ends when I pull the wood out of the kiln.
I use water, sometimes I cut it as much as 50%, usually 25%, it depends on the species. Personally, I like to see it being drawn in and soak into the the end grain, and as well as have some layered up, although lightly, on the ends.
A sprayer will put much more sealant on the ends, much more than a brush, so steps should be taken not to over coat or over apply, so thinning slightly helps that.
Also, cutting it very greatly adds to its spraying ability.
Wow! This pretty much tells you about the company! I received a email today and they are overnighting me 5 gallons of the Classic. Very happy about that!
now you can do a comparison and let us know what you think. You can repay the company with a nice letter including a comparison of the two.
I have anchorseal 2 and like it alot. definitely prefer to spray it instead of brush. I don't use it that often because brushing it on takes to long and to much work.
I like Anchor Seal Classic. Have tried several other options and none have worked for me as well as Anchor Seal.
Yellow Hammer, cutting it sounds like a good idea. I usually apply with a brush or roller. Your idea sounds like a time saver
Have been told that cost of Anchor Seal (especially in 55 gallon drums) will increase significantly May 1. If you are a regular user you might consider buying soon.
For you guys using the Chapin 24v rechargeable backpack sprayer are you taking the tank filter out? Can't get anything to pump. And the one in the handle. I'm thinking they both need out
Jacked around with the junk sprayer. Now I'll call them tomorrow
I never got a pump up to work, even with a wide angle flat nozzle. I ended up with a airless electric paint sprayer. may need to dilute as @YellowHammer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488) recommends.
Yes indeed Doc! Pretty disappointed about the sprayer. I figured it might not spray the best from previous comments but wow I didn't think it was going to be this big of a pain!
it is a good company. see what they say. the videos make it look great. they do not recommend thinning if I remember correctly. it will all work out and you will have more to post, and have opinions in the future.
Thin it out as suggested and then just come back later and spray it again. More than one way to skin the poor old cat.
Shouldn't need a filter, I would think.
Their videos don't show them pumping like mad to keep the pressure up. They say it doesn't need to be cut with water, but it does.
Cut it with a little water, mix it up, and it should and will spray easily. Play with the nozzle a little, I use the brass one, and let it rip. We can do a side of a pack of lumber in no time. Wide fan, high velocity, and not dribbling out the end of the wand like half dried Elmers glue.
We just got a new Chapman Heavy Duty pump sprayer and it is a winner also. Our other one finally broke after many years.
I know several people who have tried to spray end sealer full thickness, and none were happy, including myself.
Video coming soon.
Thanks. And sounds good on the video 👍
Get a window screen and filter it. You'll find chunks of dried wax coming out of a 5 gal bucket >:( :(.
Well after jacking around with the sprayer and ready to throw it against the wall after cutting it down with water and then dumping it out and trying straight water with no luck that this boy needs to call them it doesn't work. That's probably why they never called me back when I called them and told them it wouldn't spray and never got the call back😂. So this kid got to thinking about my various hand sprayers. So I went through them and and knew what one I was after. It works fantastic!!!! So for you boys and girls looking to apply it these work absolutely AWSOME!! I should have thought about that before I ordered the sprayer 😂
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It wouldn't even spray water?
No 😂. It must be defective. I tried and even tried flushing a few times
I hope they give you your money back. I filmed a video of me using the back pack sprayer today, and I could hear the Anchorseal impacting the logs with the camera it was spraying so hard.
Looking forward to the video 💪. If they replace it with one that works that would be ok but you think by now that they would be canvassing all these different sprayers for one that does a little better or more durable. But it seems yours has been running quite awhile
I just replaced mine with a new one after maybe 5 years because I ran over the spray wand with the 4 wheeler and kind of broke it into a couple pieces. Oops. Mines a Chapin Heavy Duty backpack pump up.
Speaking of Anchorseal, I have probably 4 to 4-1/2 gallons left over from my sawing days.
Free to a good home if anyone is in my area.
PM me at your convenience.
Pete that is practical and nice. i am sure there is someone in your area that can use it. In my Albany days, I went Kayaking near you in a river that gets turned on at 9 am and off at 5 for hydro. we went down a mile or so, and carried the boats back up the river.
Quote from: Stephen1 on April 02, 2022, 08:07:31 AMI had troubles drying his wood in my kiln until I cut the painted ends off as it went in the kiln. His wood dried better and faster after that.
I believe the moisutre needs to come out the ends in the vacumm kiln. Anchor seal melts off in the heat and I find nothing on the ends when I pull the wood out of the kiln.
Hate to thread jack, but super curious about end grain sealing for wood in the iDry. Ive been struggling to keep wood movement to a minimum. Last load I sealed the ends of all slabs with Titebond III (all I had on hand). Added end framing straps to reduce checking, and lowered temps. Load looks better, but now you got me thinking I might have turned too many knobs at the same time.
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Should I avoid end sealing for kiln drying?
Since moisture essential "boils" out of the wood on a vacuum kiln, that make sense to me. However, end sealing is useful during the air drying steps leading to the vacuum kiln, where a different mechanism takes place for drying.
Vacuum drying cycles are known for producing exaggerating cup, and such results were published decades ago in research papers. Strapping loads as shown in the picture constrains the ends of the stacks, but not the center, unless steel is used for the top and bottom strap bunks. I can see the top wooden bunk curving in the photo, so that is actually encouraging cup. Also, individual straps, place down the length of a stack, doesn't reduce twist as they are not continuously constrained, as a layer of inflexible concrete of granite would be.
Uniformly distributed weight, and lots of it, is the surest way to not only reduce bow and curve in wood, but also straighten it, depending on its thickness and the amount of weight.
Should I ditch the straps? If so, what do you recommend for adding pressure to the stack? I can build a tube frame in a 12' x 4' footprint. Could fill that with granite / concrete / steel. What weight target should I have? My forklift has a 5k capacity, shoot for that?
Thanks, appreciate your input.
I think "more is more" to a point. you have taken into account the limit of your equipment. If you want to use the straps, you need to have a stack more uniform in width and use a heavy rigid board top and bottom at each strap. did this wood have end cracks before the drying and is that why the metal straps? if so, you may be fine with fresh sawn, air dried stuff that is solid.
Quote from: tyofwa on April 22, 2022, 01:46:09 AM
Quote from: Stephen1 on April 02, 2022, 08:07:31 AMI had troubles drying his wood in my kiln until I cut the painted ends off as it went in the kiln. His wood dried better and faster after that.
I believe the moisutre needs to come out the ends in the vacumm kiln. Anchor seal melts off in the heat and I find nothing on the ends when I pull the wood out of the kiln.
Hate to thread jack, but super curious about end grain sealing for wood in the iDry. Ive been struggling to keep wood movement to a minimum. Last load I sealed the ends of all slabs with Titebond III (all I had on hand). Added end framing straps to reduce checking, and lowered temps. Load looks better, but now you got me thinking I might have turned too many knobs at the same time.
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Should I avoid end sealing for kiln drying?
I never avoid end sealing in the IDRY. I just will not appy anchorseal unless the logs or lumber are fresh cut. I find right off the sawmill and into the kiln do not need end sealling on most lumber, cherry and poplar is bad for cracking.
I use 3,000+ lbs per stack of 800 bdft of uniformly distributed weight a nominal 4x8 pallet. It makes a difference. Think of a flower pressed between the pages of a book.