Four sided planer moulder

[Stormo]

Looking to purchase a four sided planer moulder. I have been looking at the Wood Mizer Mp360. Looks like it is a year out. Was wondering if anyone has a suggestion on the best machine to get. Most of what I will be doing is cedar and Fir tongue and grove boards.  

[Southside]

Give Woodmaster a call and look into their WM4000. I am very happy with mine. 

[customsawyer]

What kind of production are you looking for?

[Stormo]

As far as production I looking to do 10000 to 15000 lineal feet per month. I do also do some beams (6 x 8  ) that would be surfaced on 4 sides.

[Stephen1]

I am also looking into this . 
We have an order this summer for 2000 sq ft of ash flooring and other inquiries. 
I just lost out on a nice portable sawmill job as the planing had to go to another shop. These other shops are 2-6 months out. 
It seems the planer fits nicely after the kiln. 

[Walnut Beast]

I think Southside runs his pretty much everyday 

[customsawyer]

That amount of footage will take 1 hard day or 2 easy ones through my Pinhero. I normally set it at about 48 ft per minute. As much as I get bored feeding my planer at my pace I would not want to have a slower machine.

[YellowHammer]

You asked "what's the best machine to get?"

The guys who plane my wood use a Pinheiro and it is a commercial, wood eating, day in and day out, center piece of a business that runs molding for a living.  They have been planing my wood for over 10 years, with the same machine, and it was old back then.  It just runs, requires minimal board prep, and takes off whatever needs to be taken off.  It is a 4 sider, but I only have them run the top and bottom head.   

It is not much different than the Pinheiro that Jake runs, and he runs it hard, and its doesn't care.  He does semi truck loads of wood with it.  You can buy a used unit for a decent price, and it still will have 20 years of commercial life left it it.

Anyway, after seeing two of them run, with the machines not even straining, there is no doubt what I would buy.  The footprint is actually not that large, less than my double sided flattening planer.

There are lots of good 4 siders out there, and I have seen others....but I haven't seen anything better than these machines. 

[customsawyer]

There is some other machines that will handle that amount of 1X material. The Pinherio has the advantage of being able to handle bigger timbers and wider material than most in the same price range. I think mine is a '97 year model 800. This gives me a 8x25 capacity. It can only run top and bottom at heads at 25" and around 20" wide with the side heads. I'm not sure what the max width is with the side heads as I have never tried to max it on that. Your normal 5,6 or more head molders can be had reasonable as the Pinherio but when you go over 9" in width the price goes up fast. 

[Stormo]

Thanks for the help. I will be calling Woodmaster as well as looking for an older used machine like the Pinhero. Any Idea where to find one?

[Walnut Beast]

Give Woodmaster a call and look into their WM4000. I am very happy with mine.

Good choice but they are backed up till after 2023 and 27k+ now

[customsawyer]

When looking at buying a used machine, see if any extra heads or knives comes with it. I bought my Pinheiro around 8-10 years ago for 24K. I have probably 30K in heads and knives. I didn't have to buy all of them at one time but they do add up over the years. One of the draw backs to the Pinheiro is most of my knives cost a little more. This is because they are thicker stock so they will hold up to what the machine can do.
A good place to start looking for used equipment is Sawmill Exchange. They normally have a banner at the bottom of every page on here. Or can be found on the left of the page.

[scsmith42]

Thanks for the help. I will be calling Woodmaster as well as looking for an older used machine like the Pinhero. Any Idea where to find one?

Comparing a Woodmaster to a Pinheiro is like comparing a Ford Ranger to a Kenworth. There is a vast chasm of difference between them in turns of capability.

[YellowHammer]

 

[Walnut Beast]

And I'm sure there is a major price difference between the two. Southside seems to be running his like a Kenworth everyday! And it's still going strong 

[Walnut Beast]

Find me another company of a comparable 4 sided planer of the capabilities it has at 27k with a 5 year warranty on pretty much everything on the unit. And 60 days running it or send it back for your money back.

[YellowHammer]

No warranty on used Pinheiros, I assume.  However, when Jake asked me to question the guys who run the one locally, 40 hours a week, for a few decades, how ofter they break down, the foreman shook his head and said "I can't remember the last time it was broke down, maybe 10 or 15 years?"  Then he turned to another guy and asked and he said that he'd been working there at least 10 years and it was always running.

One down side may be the amount of people required to feed it.  When they plane my wood, about a 25 foot flatbed trailer load per week with it, they generally use 3 guys but when doing big live edge slabs, 4 or even 5 people, 2 to feed, 2 to catch, and one to make adjustments if needed.  It will plane a 24" wide, couple hundred pound live edge slab, both sides at the same time, no problem.

The company has it's own grinding and sharpening shop, so they generally can only run a week before they dull and need to replace the blades with newly resharpened ones.

They are out of production now, I wonder what is the closest commercial equivalent to it?    

[customsawyer]

YH When you say they are out of production are you referring to Pinheiro or your local guy? I can still contact River Valley Machinery in Maine and get parts for mine. I was under the impression that River Valley was still getting fairly new machines in. I actually got my used one from there as they refurbished it some before they sent it to me. They was a little slow and that was before covid. One of the main reasons I'm recommending them to the OP is he mentioned running some timbers. I don't know the max size Woodmaster can handle but I know the Pinheiro can handle bigger than I want to be having to feed it or catch on the other end.
As to the number of men it takes to run it. I normally only use two men. One to feed and one to catch. I ran about 8000 LF through mine yesterday. We never had to get in a hurry. Had to change the set up 3 times (which I'm getting better at). Even got shut down for about 1.5 hours due to thunder storm moving through. Still had it all done in a 9 hour day on the clock for the hired man.

Edit: None of this material was flooring. Flooring is a much tighter tolerance. This was square edge material and V-Groove paneling. Where this machine shines is that none of the lumber ran yesterday had to be pre sized. I unloaded the truck Monday and put it in a shelter. Grab the first pack yesterday morning, with the forklift, cut the bands and started making a finished product. These were 1.125x7.75-8.25x16 from a local big mill. Finished to a show face on V-Groove of 7.125. On the boards that are 8.25 wide it is taking a extra half inch in width off of the board and it doesn't care. I have feed 1.375x7.25x16 through and finished at .75x6x16 and it will eat them as fast as you can feed them.  I'm sure some other 5, 6 and more head machines can do the same, on up to 2" thick boards, but I don't know how big of timbers they can do.

[Walnut Beast]

There is no doubt your machine is a serious machine hands down!!

[YellowHammer]

Both....I thought Pinheiro had gone out of business and only aftermarket parts were being built by other companies to keep the existing machines in service.  

Unfortunately, the company who does my planing has asked for a "temporary break" because they said I was killing their guys....or more appropriately the tonnage of slab wood I was having them plane was too much. :D :D   I said that's why I bring it to them, I do the lighter stuff with my planer, and I pay them to do the heavy stuff, or the wood I don't want to. :D :D  

They plane and mold lots of stuff through it, every shift, but it takes a toll on them.  Planing pallet after pallet of wood is monotonously heavy and they are having employee problems.  One guy is having back surgery, another has COPD (I told him if he'd quit chain smoking things would be better), another guy just walked out and quit, and as the foreman says "Nobody wants to work for a living anymore."  So they are making adjustments to the employee workforce to keep the machine fed.  The machine is outworking all of them, it just eats wood and is hungry....

I was there the other week and they had just finished loading a semi truck with some 16 foot sticks of molding, the last of a shipment of 22,000 linear feet or a little over 4 MILES through the machine...I don't know how long it took to run that much, but it was just another day or two at the office for the old girl.

Here's some of what I bring them, most every week, for maybe 8 years now.  This load was a little more than usual, but it all goes through the Pinheiro rough and comes out smooth.  We also plane about one pallet every couple days though our CanTek double sider, but I try to outsource as much planing as possible.  I really don't much like it....    

[Old Greenhorn]

YH, you should have told them they just have to 'take steps to save steps'. :D Problem solved. ;D

[customsawyer]

My feed rollers are getting worn. River Valley called me last summer and asked how my machine was running. They explained that they were about to place a order and it would be a few months to get the container in from Portugal. If I thought I might need some thing that it would be the time to place the order as they could add it to the order and shipping could be shared by all. I ordered all 3 infeed rollers and bearings. They arrived around March, with a cost of about $4500.00. I haven't installed them yet as I'm not looking forward to it but I have them in inventory when the time comes. I didn't think the price was to bad when you consider I paid 24K for the machine and other than a few mistakes from me and a mouse that got cooked in the control panel (which fried the top head motor) this is the only thing I have had to get for the machine.  Any time you can get a machine that will produce like this planer will, with that low of a cost, it isn't hurting you for what it can make you. Either one of my big planers actually make more profit per run hour than either one of my LT70s. I just don't have the volume of work yet to run them full time. 

[Walnut Beast]

Yellowhammer looks like your picture didn't get in there. That explains why you are farming out your planing still. I was wondering about that after you had your new machine and dust system setup. Custom you could sell your machine now for more than you paid for it. Good used units are 35k 

[teakwood]

Yellowhammer, where do you get so much rough sawn wood from every week? don't tell me that you saw all by yourself and Marta with all the other stuff you have going on.

[customsawyer]

I've shared this before but figured it might fit in with this conversation.

Making V- Groove paneling with a Pinhero 4 head planer - YouTube

[YellowHammer]

Yes, unfortunately, probably 80% all of what we outsource for planing originates with us.  And it is a 100% pain.  I have an artificial hip, a bad knee that needs to be replaced, I'm old as the hills and worn out like old bicycle tire.

It's true we also get a shipments during the week of assorted kiln dried wood, (this week we had deliveries of 4/4 red grandis, wide sort (over 12" wide FAS) red oak, S3S 4/4 basswood planed and sanded to 13/16 and, unfortunately, :'( a a thousand bdft of rough sawn poplar.  All but the unit of poplar had been surfaced by the companies who sold them to us, and we gladly pay them for that.  So after saw milling all day today, stacking shelves, edging wood, trimming, cutting, etc in the 98 degree heat, and sweating like a dog, tomorrow morning we will have to fire up the Big Gulp planer and knock out a few hundred bdft of the poplar before the customers start showing up.

So we outsource as much planing as possible, generally, a trailer load of our own rough sawn wood, give or take, like the one shown in the photo, from what our kilns puke out, and have been doing so week after week, for maybe 8 or 9 years.  I carry a load every Friday and pick up the loads from the week before, like clockwork.  We rely on the company's Pinheiro and employees to do our heavy planing, and we use our equipment to fill in the gaps, like the unit of poplar that showed up today.  So for some folks, planing a few thousand bdft a week may not seem like a lot, but considering he have to slip in in between the real work we have to do, we can't muck around, we have to get it done, and done fast.  That's why we bought Big Gulp.  

Unfortunately, the company who does our planing has waved the white flag to us and asked us to hold off for a little while, so we haven't taken them anything for a couple weeks and yes, now we are planing all of it, which is unsustainable considering all the other stuff we have to do.  

So I'm certainly looking for other places to outsource our planing but no luck yet.  So far the places that have responded have about a 7 hp single sided somthing or other brand planer and that is not enough.  They may do it for a week or two, but it will kill them, and I need it for the long haul.

There are very few places like what Customsawyer has, and the equipment to support it.  

[longtime lurker]

I was under the impression that Pinheiro had closed production down but that parts and service availability was still there.

I did a major overhaul on my Klein about 5 years ago, they've been out of production for 30 plus years and I won't say a few parts were easy but I got them eventually: some engineering shop in Germany has the blueprints for fabricating them. Pinheiro are even more common so I'm sure someone will take up a similar opportunity if it arises.

Only new builds of similar capacity and design I know of are made by REX
https://www.rex-maschinen.de/en/115/timbermaster/
Better have a big cheque book... if Weinig are the BMW of the moulder word a REX is the fully optioned up Mercedes limo with bulletproof glass and a minibar in reach of the spa bath.

[customsawyer]

One of those would be nice. I'm willing to bet they are out of my budget.

[teakwood]

Better have a big cheque book... if Weinig are the BMW of the moulder word a REX is the fully optioned up Mercedes limo with bulletproof glass and a minibar in reach of the spa bath.

Really? i thought weinig is the mercedes of planer/moulder machines

[teakwood]

Yes, unfortunately, probably 80% all of what we outsource for planing originates with us.  And it is a 100% pain.  I have an artificial hip, a bad knee that needs to be replaced, I'm old as the hills and worn out like old bicycle tire.

It's true we also get a shipments during the week of assorted kiln dried wood, (this week we had deliveries of 4/4 red grandis, wide sort (over 12" wide FAS) red oak, S3S 4/4 basswood planed and sanded to 13/16 and, unfortunately, :'( a a thousand bdft of rough sawn poplar.  All but the unit of poplar had been surfaced by the companies who sold them to us, and we gladly pay them for that.  So after saw milling all day today, stacking shelves, edging wood, trimming, cutting, etc in the 98 degree heat, and sweating like a dog, tomorrow morning we will have to fire up the Big Gulp planer and knock out a few hundred bdft of the poplar before the customers start showing up.

So we outsource as much planing as possible, generally, a trailer load of our own rough sawn wood, give or take, like the one shown in the photo, from what our kilns puke out, and have been doing so week after week, for maybe 8 or 9 years.  I carry a load every Friday and pick up the loads from the week before, like clockwork.  We rely on the company's Pinheiro and employees to do our heavy planing, and we use our equipment to fill in the gaps, like the unit of poplar that showed up today.  So for some folks, planing a few thousand bdft a week may not seem like a lot, but considering he have to slip in in between the real work we have to do, we can't muck around, we have to get it done, and done fast.  That's why we bought Big Gulp.  

Unfortunately, the company who does our planing has waved the white flag to us and asked us to hold off for a little while, so we haven't taken them anything for a couple weeks and yes, now we are planing all of it, which is unsustainable considering all the other stuff we have to do.  

So I'm certainly looking for other places to outsource our planing but no luck yet.  So far the places that have responded have about a 7 hp single sided somthing or other brand planer and that is not enough.  They may do it for a week or two, but it will kill them, and I need it for the long haul.

There are very few places like what Customsawyer has, and the equipment to support it.  

I feel your pain there, i'm just 40 but the long work hours and with everything i have going on, sometimes it's overwhelming. i do like it though and wouldn't want anything else. i'm investing in better and faster machinery so the workload is getting lesser, because you can not find good employees here.
Robert, don't you have any kids which can be abused in the business and then later can take over? 

[YellowHammer]

I'm fresh out of kids, they are all married off, or about to be so.  If anything, working at the mill convinced them to get "real" jobs.   :D :D  There is some talk about who wants the farm, but I think the sawmill business would be up for sale before the dirt over me has settled.  

I have about 14 years before any grandkids can help, and I'll be done by then.

[customsawyer]

Not finding good employees is a struggle about everywhere I think. There is a reason everything is getting so automated. Including self check out at grocery stores.

[Walnut Beast]

It doesn't stop with the four sided planer moulder. Keep in mind dust extraction. That's going to be expensive also

[teakwood]

Electric installation was expensive for me also, about 6k for a new service line, panels, vfd's, and all the other gismos you need. i'm at an additional  4k in tooling and i just bought 4 aluminum spiral heads and T and G cutters

[Walnut Beast]

The anodized red looks cool! 

[Walnut Beast]

All the bad talk about knives vs spiral inserts when it comes to moldings what is used ? 

[teakwood]

I have no idea what is used for mouldings, have almost 2 hours behind a moulder. did one batch of teak boards thru the moulder and the normal HSS straight knifes get rounded over within 40 boards and started smoking and burning.  
the spiral heads work perfect in my jointer and planer so i went with spiral for the moulder, the T y G cuttters are carbide tiped cutters, fixed, not the insert type with exchangeable knifes, those are really expensive. 

[Don P]

I think you would be looking at Tersa heads. Back in the dark ages I would grind Hs steel for short custom runs and order carbide heads for repeat runs but I could leave my mittens on and count the number of times I worked in teak.

[Walnut Beast]

Sounds like the improvement you have done is hands down a major improvement for sure! 

[Larry]

All the bad talk about knives vs spiral inserts when it comes to moldings what is used ?

HSS for one off and prototypes.  Brazed carbide for long runs.  Sharp HSS will give the best cut but not for long.  Look closely and you can see the carbide in the picture.  This knife was running in a Weinig in a production shop that went out of business.  I bought a lot of the knives and run them in a head on my shaper.

[customsawyer]

I have some carbide knives for my Pinhero. They work great until you need to sharpen them. My regular guy has to send them out to be sharpened.

[Walnut Beast]

Anybody have one or seen one in action. Martin T 29  tilting arbor spindle moulder

T29

Tilting arbor spindle moulder

Tilting arbor spindle moulder

 

[beenthere]

I saw that photo on Facebook. Think it was Michael Weinig AG or Otto Martin machinery.  

Is this one you are looking at buying to run your walnut through?

[Larry]

That Martin probably costs more than my house!

The tilting arbor adds a whole new dimension to the machine.  I've ran my buddies older Martin and it was a pleasure.  I've also ran a newer Felder that is close to that Martin, again a pleasure.

I think their are a bunch of good shapers being made today.  SCM, Felder, Martin, Griggio (who also makes some Martin machines) and others.  I'm sure tule peak knows them better than me.

Lots of great used machines on the market.  Watch for bad bearings as they are precision and super expensive.  They can be upgraded with Aigner fences and accessories to rival the newest.

I run a old SCMI with a huge top and 9 horsepower underneath.  Other than not having a tilting arbor I love it.

[Walnut Beast]

Beenthere and Larry. The photo was from the company site. I'll be sticking with my Woodmaster 4000 four sided moulder/ planer.  I'm not that big time 😂.  They really look impressive. When I was talking with Berry at Woodmaster that designed the 4000 he said a few guys that have gotten the 4000 also had Martin ones. 

[teakwood]

Martin is the Mercedes of woodworking machines (for cabinet makers) German quality at is best, be prepared to open your wallet deep! 

[Walnut Beast]

If anybody is thinking of getting a Woodmaster 4000 better get on the list. They are about eight months out when I talked to them the other day

[Don P]

I saw an older SCMI with a universal 5th head go for small money right before the pandemic, don't know what used is available now. I believe a person could modify the mounts on that rear head.

[OutlawB52]

There is a used MP360 for sale in Lancaster PA on Craigslist tempest search . The owners have outgrown it .

[Walnut Beast]

Top and bottom planing at the same time. 

 

[customsawyer]

Have a friend running one of the top of the line Weinigs where the moulder computer communicates with the grinder computer. This is all done to speed up setup time. Of course they are running over 20K LF per shift and have to maintain a 0.008" tolerance on finished product.
They have that show in Atlanta every fall, Aug. I think, that will showcase a lot of these top of the line machines. I have been to it in the past but most of the equipment is way out of my wheel house.

[Walnut Beast]

Dust extraction works fantastic with two 5 hp blowers with shutoffs on two of the side cutters when not in use

[Walnut Beast]

Nothing boring coming out of the 4000

 

[tule peak timber]

That Martin probably costs more than my house!

The tilting arbor adds a whole new dimension to the machine.  I've ran my buddies older Martin and it was a pleasure.  I've also ran a newer Felder that is close to that Martin, again a pleasure.

I think their are a bunch of good shapers being made today.  SCM, Felder, Martin, Griggio (who also makes some Martin machines) and others.  I'm sure tule peak knows them better than me.

Lots of great used machines on the market.  Watch for bad bearings as they are precision and super expensive.  They can be upgraded with Aigner fences and accessories to rival the newest.

I run a old SCMI with a huge top and 9 horsepower underneath.  Other than not having a tilting arbor I love it.

I've seen the Martin, but it is WAY out of my paygrade. I have an army of big SCM shapers that tilt, tenon, mould, and are much easier on the pocketbook. Very happy with them. I did not go 4 sided or a moulder because I don't have the power available. Used old shapers like Olivers are also excellent machines-bring a forklift