Anyone ever finish their own hardwood flooring?

[oakiemac]

I made a bunch of cherry and maple flooring-first batch off the moulder. I'm really happy with it. I used low grade wood and I think the character of it is out standing. I went around the perimeter of our living room with two rows of the maple then put the cherry on the inside of this.

Anyway, next step is to sand and finish but I've never done this before. Looking for some tips and advice. ???

[Sprucegum]

Laying the floor is the hard part - but you already know that  :D

I rented one of those square vibrating sanders, slower than a drum sander and less likely to gouge a hole in the floor. It was my first real wood floor so caution was the word.
Next step was an oil-based stain, then Tung oil, then varnish. A long process but I like the result. It has a deep luster that just takes care of itself but then 2 old foggies in sock feet gotta stomp pretty hard to hurt a wood floor.  8)   8)

[solodan]

I have only finished pine floors in place. I like to use a drum sander, you can remove alot of material quick. You can also make your first pass across the floor at an angle. Yes you will get sander marks across the grain and you will have to sand the whole floor again but this method is great for leveling the whole floor if you have some variance in height. If your border is quarter turned, then stop the sander there and sand the two rows with a belt sander. If you still have any height issues from a cupped board, then you can always take it down with a hand plane. Next get the dust off the floor, but don't pull out the vacum. Instead sweep the dust around real good to fill in between the boards , especially where you quarter turned it. That is the hardest place to keep boards tight especially wide boards.e a tack cloth to get the rest of the floor clean an the apply your stain or oil or whatever, then your top coat. I prefer oil and the oil based poly, but I still like the luster of a wax finish.

[SwampDonkey]

I would plane and sand before I laid it down. I never did a floor, but the dust from sanding would be all through the house even if some kind of vacuum system was on the sanding machine. That's a lot of work cleaning that mess. I just have an old farm house here with some floors uneven to beat the band. It wasn't much of a job for the floor people to put down this pre-finished oak.

[solodan]

I think he already laid it. The first floor I ever did was an oak floor. I installed it with my dad when I was about 12.  We stained and finished it first. It still looks pretty good after 28 years. However, a floor sanded in place comes out dead flat. If I were to prefinish a floor I would put a small chamfer in the top edge. This way you don't notice the high or low spots. A prefinished floor is only a flat as the subfloor.

[SwampDonkey]

You'd have to sand to the sub-floor in some parts of this house to get it dead flat. Actually with this pre-finished floor it looks flat. It's an illusion of course. I won't be playing marbles, so it don't matter. :D  Perfectionists.  :

[oakiemac]

Solodan, what do you mean my "quarter turned"? Do you seal in the sawdust with poly to help fill in any gaps?

I've been looking at some water based sealers. Supposed to stay clear and not turn yellow or dark over time also easy clean up and less fumes. I want a natural finish but I'm not sure if I should put some tung oil down first just to have the wood grain pop out more.

[SwampDonkey]

The only wood I have seen that defies that claim Okiemac is black cherry. It will turn with age. But I have used water based Varathane on furniture and my other hardwood species have not turned. Now to clarify, that cherry wood turns, not the finish.

[Sprucegum]

I think Tung oil will darken your wood more than you might like. If you want to keep that maple bright a water based varathane would be your best bet. The draw back to varathanes is if you need to repair a spot a couple years later you will have to strip and redo the whole floor.

[SwampDonkey]

The draw back to varathanes is if you need to repair a spot a couple years later you will have to strip and redo the whole floor.

Why? I don't follow.

[ohsoloco]

Only used water based finish once, and I don't plan on doing it ever again.  Used it on a cherry bed that I made, and I thought it looked awful...no depth or richness whatsoever, but then again I don't use stain either. 

Refinished my oak floors a couple years ago.  Like Sprucegum I rented a rectangular orbital sander.  Did a great job, but my floor was even to begin with.  Only thing about them is you don't want to keep it in one spot, always keep it moving or you'll get deep swirl marks (I got those when "stalling" along the baseboards).  Used oil based poly from janitorial supply co. that's typically used for gym floors.  Applied with lambswool pad.  The dog's still doing a number on it when she "flips out" in the house  :-\  Think dog in a cartoon that starts running before it finally takes off   :D  :(

[Sprucegum]

I just find it REAL DIFFICULT to blend in a spot of new varathane with the old existing surface. The transition is always noticeable  :(

[Larry]

I've finished several floors with Waterlox High Gloss...used to be called Gym Floor Finish.  Sometimes I used a satin topcoat to tone it down a little.  It is extremely durable...looked good in our house for maybe 12 years with zero maintaince and we had dogs.  Drawback is the high price.

I got to talking with a floor guy that has been in business forever with an excellent reputation.  He suggested I try Minwax Satin as that is all he ever used.  I did try it on our house when I was fixing it up to sell.  It looked good...I don't know about durability but my friend said it was excellent.  It is available at Sherwin Williams for about 1/2 the price of Waterlox...ask for a discount.  I put it down with lambswool...my flooring friend says a brush is better but harder to master.

[oakiemac]

Thanks for the responses. I will check out the minwax satin. I'll try to post some pics when finished.

[SwampDonkey]

I just find it REAL DIFFICULT to blend in a spot of new varathane with the old existing surface. The transition is always noticeable  :(

:D :D too fussy.

The dining room table had a rug under it for a few years while the rest of the flooring yellowed. Got rid of the rug and gave brother the dining room set and the floor was lighter under the rug. A couple years and she all looks the same now.  ;D

[solodan]

Only used water based finish once, and I don't plan on doing it ever again.  Used it on a cherry bed that I made, and I thought it looked awful...no depth or richness whatsoever...

I feel the same way. Oil based finish really brings depth to the wood. So does shellac.

oakiemac, by 1/4 turned, I just mean the boards runing at a right angle to the field. If in fact you ran your border like this. It is a term that I have heard alot in the flooring industry, but no where else come to think of it. ???  It is just the floor material laid down at a 1/4 of a turn. And yes I seal in the sawdust between the cracks with the finish.

[Norm]

An easier way to get the brushed finish is to put it down with a roller using the synthetic nap and brush behind it. It's a little more work but the finish is nicer.

[oakiemac]

I did frame in the room with maple so I do have 1/4 turned boards. Never heard that term before but I'm new to the world of flooring.

Got most of the floor laid then ran out of flooring so it is off to the shop to whip up another batch. I really enjoy doing this floor but man has it been a lot of work.

[blaze83]

oakiemac,
sounds like a fun project  what type of shaper are you using to make your flooring and do you have any pictures? would love to see the wood combination and also the 1/4 turn effect.

thanks,

Steve

[thedeeredude]

Has anyone ever used tung oil on floors?  I am getting some ash milled as we speak and was planning to use tung oil.

[pigman]

I am glad you are doing this project oakiemac-Steve. My wife wants me to make and put down some hardwood floor in our house. I am learning from this thread. 8) After you get  all that experience putting down your floor, you can come down and help me put mine down.. ;D

[Engineer]

I put down 3" strip silver maple, unfinished.  I was scared of the drum sanders so I rented what amounted to a 18" diameter floor buffer, not an orbital machine, and the rental place sold sanding screens to use with it.  I found that I made the wrong choice.  It was agonizingly slow, there were a few spots that I just couldn't even out, and it generated a huge amount of dust that I think might still be settling after over a year...  :D  If I ever refinish the floor I'll use a drum sander and an orbital finish sander.

As for the finish - I used two coats of Zinsser Seal-Coat shellac and three coats of Minwax water-based Polyurethane For Floors.  The shellac really brought out the colors and curl in the maple, but the Minwax junk is not durable.  Oil-based floor finish next time, probably use the Waterlox product or something similar.

[oakiemac]

I'm using an old Stetson Ross 4 head moulder. Nice machine but it takes a while to set it up. I just found out today, after I have made all the flooring, that I ran the wood upside down thourgh the machine. The knives I bought were made for the face to be up and I ran it face down. Not much of a difference but I was told that the boards will fit together better if I run it right.

I'll get some pics here when done.

[srt]

I'll throw my 2 cents worth in here.

As a cabinetmaker (custom woodworker), I finish just about everything that leaves the shop.  The stuff we make is very diverse.  Everything from custom entrance doors, cabinetry and furniture, custom millwork, and yes, occasionally even floors.  I've used just about all the finishes mentioned here, and a few more.  I don't consider myself an expert in any finish, but I do have plenty of success and some failures with all of them.

In my own house, I put down cherry flooring.   I was going to go with Oil based poly, but on jobsites, the flooring guys were really thrilled with this stuff called "traffic" by Bon Kami (?).  It's a two part water based.  They swore by it.

So, I warmed the floor up with some dewaxed shellac, scuffed it and gave it two coats of the 2 part WB finish.

It looked almost as good as an oil finish.

In a month, I was not pleased.  Here are the problems:

When it gets scratched, the "scratch" looks whiter than when Oil Based gets scratched.

Cherry, although a hardwood, and kinda brittle, is not hard.  This really surprised me, as it's a bit brittle, and takes a long time to sand (meaning hard).  Our two beagles have dented and scratched it terribly.  We have dented it also.

I don't believe Oil based finishes are as good (tough) as they used to be.  I've been told that the environmental regs are the reason.  Another reason, at least in my view, is that all the R&D money is going into WB finishes.

When I strip this floor, which means I'll have to also strip the quartersawn white oak accent and around the marble inlays, I'll replace the finish with shellac.  No top coat of poly, or anything else, except maybe a little dye added to the shellac to deepen the color just a little bit.

Shellac was a floor finish of choice years ago.  It is infinitely repairable with only a rag that has some shellac on it. 

Want to refinish the shellac floor?  Got a couple hours?  You'll spend more time moving furniture than actually refinishing.  It's just a light scuff, vacuum, tack and wipe on a new coat (repeat).  If you're not fussy, skip the vacuum and tack, as the shellac dust will melt into the new finish, but this skipped step will not give you as smooth of a finish. Don't skip the scuff, because that's how you find the bits of stuff stuck to the floor before you seal it in with another coat.  Don't need to scuff for finish adhesion, just to get the junk off the floor!

New shellac actually melts into old shellac.  I'm unaware of any other finish that can make that claim for more than a very short window (hours).  Shellac applied today will melt into shellac applied two centuries ago.

There's a product called "shellac dull" that can be added to the top coat if the shine bothers you.

You can add a very small amount of real turpentine to the shellac to help keep a wet edge.  Thinner (alcohol) is your friend when using shellac.  The worst mistake when using shellac is trying to put it on too heavy.  Several thinned down coats are much better than one thick coat.

You can buy lighter (Blond) or darker (garnet) or anywhere inbetween shellac in flake form that is dewaxed.  The flakes will last forever.  Use what you've mixed up in a few months.  It's expired when a drop put on a piece of scrap doesn't dry fast and hard enough to suit you.

Shellac is not durable.  In fact, compared to all other products other than wax, it's the least durable finish I know of.  However, it rivals the best looking finishes, and it is way, way,way easier to do a really good looking job in a repair or refinish than any other finish (except wax) that I know of. 

The Tung oil finish mentioned is also a nice non-durable finish that can be repaired easily.  The difference is that it takes weeks to do a good oil finish.  Repairs take up to days to get hard enough not to leave marks when walked on.

Since your cherry flooring sounds like it has a lot of figure, it will likely be harder than my cherry, which has very little figure.  So, it should be less likely to dent than my floor.

I'd sand that floor all the way to 150 or 180 grit before finishing.  Once you get above 120, I'd use a hand held random orbital.  I know, this is really anal, and no flooring guys I know do this, but it will do wonders for bringing out the clarity of all that figured wood. 

OK,  That's at least three cents worth.  Hope it helps and doesn't confuse.

[oakiemac]

Thanks srt, never though of just shellac. Where can you buy dewaxed shellac? If I read your post correctly you sand to 120 grit then orbital hand sand then clean and tack then apply the shellac with a small amount of turpentine for wet edge?
what do you mean by scuff?
This finish sound interesting. I have been thinking about a non traditional type finish especially something easy to apply and fix.

[srt]

Oakie, 

I buy my shellac as flakes from Jeff at www.homesteadfinishing.com.  For some reason, I can't get their website to come up right now.  Never had a problem before, probably a temporary thing.  I've been buying from them for at least 6 years with no problems.  It's basically a mom-n-pop operation where pop is a finish applying expert, as well as a salesman.

Another option is to buy Zinzer's sealcoat, which is dewaxed.

There's a controversy among finishers as to wether or not you need to use "dewaxed" shellac.  The fellow I work with thinks the dewaxed thing is a bunch of bunk.  A friend who has been refinishing and selling high end antiques for about 50 years and happens to have a doctorate in chemistry also says it's bunk.  Just about every article I've ever read written by finishing experts, and those trying to sound like finishing experts says to use dewaxed. 

I choose to use dewaxed, because it basically costs the same and is one more thing that can't go wrong.

You can basically dewax regular shellac by just pouring off the waxy portion from the top.  Put the can in the fridge for a while and don't stir it to help separate the wax.   Or, do as my friend does and just use the shellac as it comes out of the can (except dilute it with alcohol, of course).


Here's an article about applying shellac.  Bear in mind they go into too much detail, as they are discussing using it on furniture.  It's not that technical.  I'd put it on with a brush or rag.

http://www.hardwoodlumberandmore.com/Finishing/Shellac/ApplyingShellac.html



Yes, a little real turpentine (not turpentine substitute) will help maintain a wet edge.  Again, thinner (alcohol) is by far your best friend.  Just don't let any sparks or flames around, it likes to ignite!

If you'r new to using it, I'd cut your first coat with thinner to achieve about a 1 pound cut (1 pound shellac flakes to 1 gallon of alcohol).  Normally, the shellac you buy premixed in the can is a 3 pound cut.  Brush it out on a sheet of plywood, or even cardboard to get used to it.

If you really, really, really screw up applying it, either let it dry and sand it well, or just wash it off with alcohol.  Can't screw it up!  Can't say the same for many finishes!

Scuff sanding is lightly sanding (generally with the grain) between coats of a finish.  For a floor, I'd use something like 320 grit, or maybe even some well worn 180 or 220.  If you get many "corns" building up on your paper, wait a bit longer to let the shellac get dryer.  In this step, you're only trying to find and remove the dirt, and other stuff that always finds its way into fresh finishes, and smooth out any rough finish spots.  Could scuff sand a 4X8 sheet in about 2 minutes by hand.

Have a good time!

[scsmith42]

I'm not an expert, but will share what I know.

Several years back, when we installed the heart pine floors in our home, I spoke with several installers about what was the most durable finish.

The consensus was an oil based polyurethane called "moisture cure".  It's used in high traffic areas such as shopping malls, etc.  It is supposed to continue to harden over time.

The other thing that I discovered is that poly finishes can be divided into two categories - those that yellow over time (standard poly) and those that don't (non-yellowing). 

Some of our then 15 year old oak floors had standard poly on them, and when we sanded it off and refinished it - Katy bar the door what a difference!  The refinished wood looked spectacular, the old finish is faded yellow. 

This alone convinced me to pony up the extra bucks for the non-yellowing finish.

We have four years of hard traffic (four dogs plus my work boots) on the floor and no complaints whatsoever regarding the finish or durability of the non-yellowing moisture cure poly. 

[srt]

Hi Scott, 

That sounds like Gorilla Glue in a finish form. 

I've used Gorilla glue a few times, and for the right application, it's great.

If my floors had held up that great, I'd be satisfied with what you used as well.

I googled moisture cure, and couldn't find a brand.  Do you by chance have the mfgr's name handy?

srt

[Sprucegum]

  8) SRT  Thank you for the essay. Its one of those gems of information that makes me glad I learned to read  :P

[oakiemac]

I agree with sprucegum, Thanks SRT for the information.

I think I'll buy some shellac and try it on a small area or some scraps and see how it works. I Googled shellac finishs and found a lot of info. It was used on floors for many years. I like the simplicity of the finish so I think I'll try it.

[Larry]

I'm using an old Stetson Ross 4 head moulder. Nice machine but it takes a while to set it up. I just found out today, after I have made all the flooring, that I ran the wood upside down thourgh the machine. The knives I bought were made for the face to be up and I ran it face down. Not much of a difference but I was told that the boards will fit together better if I run it right.

I have an even older Smithway XL which I think is basically the same as your Stetson Ross.  I'm thinking about putting it in service running flooring.  Any advice and where did you get knives?  Already learned to run it face up.

[scsmith42]

Hi SRT.

Here are some links with general info and specific product info:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/epi/mcu-fact.shtml

http://www.harcocoatings.com/Docs/HARCO%20Clear%20Finishes.pdf

http://www.poolandmarinepaint.com/shop/index.php?action=item&id=159&prevaction=category&previd=21&prevstart=0

This stuff has a reputation for being about as tough as it gets, and one nice thing is that it continues to harden as it ages.  I understand that MCU's are used on bridges, ships, etc due to their durability.

Regards,

Scott

[oakiemac]

Larry, I got my knives from www.moldingknives.com I had no problems with them and they seem very knowledgeable.

[srt]

Thanks Scott, 

I've emailed Harco to see where I can get a quart to try.  Here in Jersey (Nanny State), we can't get nasty stuff anymore.  Will probably have to go to Delaware .

srt

[scsmith42]

SRT- You're welcome!  Good luck trying it out.

One thing - be sure to use it in a well ventilated area, or even better yet - wear a ventilator.

Regards,

Scott

[RSteiner]

Has anyone ever used tung oil on floors?  I am getting some ash milled as we speak and was planning to use tung oil.

I just installed a plank oak floor made of 150+ year old barn board.  I finished the floor with tung oil.  The tung oil was thinned 1 to 1 with citrus solvent.  The floor took 6 applications before it stopped soaking in.  It could be waxed or top coated with any other sealer.  The tung oil did darken the oak a little and gave it a slight amber color.

The nice feature of the tung oil only is when the floor shows wear spots it only needs to be cleaned with water and some dish washing soap then a little more tung oil applied with a nylon stocking.  I have tried using tung oil on cherry and it did darken the cherry a bit more than I liked.

Randy

[srt]

Scott,
I understand the need to breath clean air.  In fact, a few years ago, I purchased a full face respirator that I hook up to a small oiless compressor.  There's no CO from the compressor, and I ain't breathing Nothin' off gassing from what I'm applying.  Don't do this with an oil lubricated compressor, according to my industrial hygenesist (sp?) friend.

[scsmith42]

SRT, it sounds like you've been around the block once or twice!  Thx for the info on the oilless compressor.

I enjoyed the photo's in your gallery; those glass double doors in particular really look nice. 

When you get some time, how about posting some additional pix?  It's always nice to admire great craftsmanship.

Scott

[srt]

Glad you liked the doors Scott.  I actually just got done building seven more mahogany doors for the same builder.  The new doors are very plain though - not nearly as impressive.

OK, I'll try to re-learn how to post pics, again.............

"Been around the block a few times" ..........  Why do I still have to keep stopping for directions?

Not really, I've just had the good fortune to have had a father who was an outstanding woodworker, and have worked with another outstanding woodworker for the past 13 years, and I read, read, read about it.  No original ideas, just re-hashing what others have said and done.

[oakiemac]

Well I finally got around to taking some pictures of the floor. Hopefully I can remember how to post them.
I still have not sanded or finished the floor. I ran out of time before the holidays hit so we decided to move the furniture back and finish it after the 1st of the year.





I will try to post some more pics when its completed

[pigman]

That looks nice Steve. 8)

[oakiemac]

Ok here is one more that shows more of the floor.





Notice the cute dog in bottom of photo ;D

[wildtmpckjzg]

My wife wants hardwood floors to replace the old vinyl in our kitchen.  So we're doing hardwood floors.  But the hardwood in the rest of the house expands and contracts with the seasons producing small cracks at various times, and I'm concerned that in the kitchen, the small cracks that might open between boards in the dry winter will make the floor hard to keep clean, and vulnerable to wet spills. Beyond the normal techniques of letting the wood acclimate in the house for several weeks before installation, and finishing with 3-4 coats of high-quality polyurethane, I'm thinking that it might make sense to backprime the wood with poly before installation.  Just one coat, to seal it, and presumably prevent the under surface from picking up seasonal humidity apartments for rent in Metn.  Obviously, I wouldn't prime the tongue-and-groove edges; the floor would still be laid and finished the normal way. The kitchen is over a full-height unfinished-but-heated basement. I've asked a number of friends and contractors, and nobody has ever heard of this being done.  Realizing that it will cost extra labor time to do it, I'm still inclined to backprime the boards as "insurance."  But does anyone know of a reason why this might be a bad idea?  Has anyone ever done this?

[kelLOGg]

more info

Questions on milling flooring in Sawmills and Milling (forestryforum.com)

[firefighter ontheside]

Last year I made flooring to do my master bedroom.  I used 14 different species of wood to make the flooring.  I did not finish/seal the bottom of the boards, but I did lay down 15lb felt on the subfloor before I installed the floor.  I think that does the same thing you're wanting.  It protects the under side of the floor from humidity that might be coming from below.  I've never had any problem with expansion or contraction in any of my floors.  Of course winters are dry and most of the summer we are using AC.  The few months of the year when we are not really conditioning the house are not engouh to cause siginificant changes in the floors.  I'm curious how you are conditioning your home.  I can't think of any reason not to prime the bottoms.  

Here's my floor project.
My Master Bedroom Floor Project in General Woodworking

[trimguy]

Over a " conditioned " space you should not need a vapor barrier. As long as you do not have high humidity in the basement. But I don't know of a reason that it would hurt to back prime it. Just make sure your floor is good and dry before you install it.

[alan gage]

Wider boards will result in wider cracks.  

Wetter boards will also result in larger cracks.

I put down 2-3" hardwood in my bedrooms and it was about 10%. It closes up in summer but has same gaps in the winter.

In my living room and kitchen I put down 4-6" boards that were at 8% and the cracks that open in winter are not as large as the narrower flooring that was wetter at install time.

I don't have a kiln so I stack and sticker wood in the basement during winter (heated with a wood stove so it's quite warm) to bring it down to 8% before taking it into the shop for final processing.

Don't guess on moisture. Spend a couple hundred on a moisture meter. You'll probably be surprised.

We get pretty humid during our iowa summers. I don't have ac but do run a couple dehumidifiers in the house during summer to keep it manageable. 


Alan

[beenthere]

Oak flooring standard width (2+") was produced from boards dried to 5% and passed through the moulder. Came two months before ready to lay it down so I wrapped it tight as possible in poly and stacked (Dec '67) in the dining room while the rest of the house construction including heat and dry-walling was finished.
Laid it Feb 1968 and it has remained tight ever since. No cracks opening except down the hallway, as a result of happened I was a few square feet short, and a friend who had the same mill had extra stored in an attic. Unconditioned but we laid that down to finish the job. Those flooring strips are the only ones that have gaps.
Not advocating this same process of over-drying, but the last 54 years of having great hardwood oak flooring (still the original three coats of gym seal) has been a pleasure.