Tired of lurking, so finely joined the FF

[SLawyer Dave]

Dave welcome. Before I built my cedar log(conventional horizontal logs) I also thought CSM and even bought two of them. Both the Woodbug & Hudson CSM's were powered by a Stihl 660. CSM's make perfect lumber but what I found out real quickly by using the CSM's was that if I wanted the house built before I was elderly I needed to get a bandmill. I sold them both & bough a LT15 & have zero regrets. I still get my chainsaw fix by running anywhere from 7-10 Stihls(the number varies, I buy them fix them up and sell them). Like you I still have and use regularly my first Stihl bought brand new in 1983...a 024Super.

Thanks for the info MotorSeven.  Truth be told, I already read through the the 200+ pages of your build.  =)  That was incredibly impressive and educational.  That was one of my "lurker" activities.  Beyond just the impressiveness of the build, I thought your creativity with all of the finishing touches was incredible.  Your use of limbs, logs, and stumps in rails and banisters could only be called artistic and really finished off the build.  The red cedar is also a beautiful choice. 

[AK Newbie]

Welcome to the forum!  I have had a Logosol csm for the past four years at our remote Alaska cabin.  The Logosol is a fabulous csm which has the capability to make very accurate cuts and very nice lumber.  I'm going to try and attach some pics (first time so we'll see if it works).  As has been pointed out earlier csm's are slow so although you could cut enough lumber to build your cabin it would be time consuming.  (Although very good exercise!)  The boards in the pic are Spruce boards for a deck building project I have going.  Good luck with your goals, the folks on this forum are tremendously generous with their knowledge and just plain fine people. 

[AK Newbie]

One more try on showing you the pics....

  

 

[beenthere]

Good job on the pics.
Looks like a nice setup there.

[fat olde elf]

Welcome SLawyer !!  My SIL practices law in Buffalo NY. She does copyright and author law.  I got into this much later than you. My manual mill keeps me going at 75 YO.  Listen carefully to these folks here.  This is a fabulous place for info and shared experiences. Good luck on your project...Paul R.

[MotorSeven]

Keep us posted on what mill you zero in on. Depending upon your budget a used one can save thousands from new. If I had to choose between a tractor w/FEl/manual mill, or a fully hydraulic mill I would choose manual & tractor. If I had the budget I would certainly go all hydraulic mill and a tractor.

A LT35HD is in my future, we just need to catch up on a few recent bills first.

[customsawyer]

Welcome to the forum. I am going to throw one more suggestion out there. You could just hire your sawing done by one of the portable millers in your area. Now if you have the itch to just do this thing yourself from start to finish, then I fully understand.

[SawyerBrown]

Welcome SLawyer Dave! 

As possibly now the second-newest member of FF, I can only offer one piece of advice ... Much like losing weight (same issue for me), you have to be disciplined.  There is so much interesting material on every topic you can think of in this forum, you have to allocate so much time per day and stick to it -- or else you might just end up reading all day instead of working, and you'll never get that log cabin built! :D  I got into a couple of threads one night after the wife went to bed, and before I knew it it was 1 AM ...

As interesting for me as all the topics is looking at the left panels and seeing where everybody is from -- from coast to coast and "top" to "bottom".  That, and how many folks are still doing this hard physical work on up into their 60's and even 70's.  Gives me hope for losing the weight and keeping it off, reducing the stress when I can retire and do this full time (I'm an engineering manager at a Fortune 100 company), and just enjoying the fresh air, sunshine, and seeing what's inside a log.

BTW, my new SIL just started his career as a patent attorney ... so some really good lawyer jokes have to go in the firewood pile!

Pete

[SLawyer Dave]

I have to admit that the Logosol M8 is at the top of the list.  While I realize that CSM cut much slower than bandsaw mills, the more I have thought about it, the more I think it will fit my needs.  First, from a knowledge level, using a chain saw is pretty much second nature to me.  So while rip cutting will be new, the technical aspects of care and maintenance of the saw will not be a learning curve.  Further, I already have the saws, so the cost of the M8 is far below my other options.  The vast majority of logs I will be cutting will be only double faced, so they will probably require more time turning, measuring and setting up the cuts than the actual cutting will take.  My goal will be to take out the taper on the two sides I face, so that I can have a set dimension for the log.   Then the log will be placed vertically with the taper down, so that the unfaced exterior side of the logs will extend out over the edge of the mudsill, (thereby shedding water and avoiding an excess moisture situation).  While I will be cutting a lot of 1" pine boards for flooring and planking, the small size of the cabin will limit the overall need of these boards.  Further, I don't expect to be cutting any lumber professionally, and if I ever do, I guess that would be a reason to upgrade.

I also have run into several situations where people are willing to allow me to harvest some nice pine trees that were blown down in recent storms, however, they are back in areas where there is no road access.  With the M8, rather than facing the prospect of a horrendously long "pull" with a winch, I could just set up the M8 at the logs, cut the boards, and then much more easily carry them out.  I have an email into Logosol right now, hoping to see if they have any customers up in my area, so that I can possibly see a demo.  Coincidentally, my aunt is the Supervisor for the Laytonville area, where Baileys is headquartered.  Even better, Baileys shipping facility is only a short drive away from me, so I might even be able to save the shipping costs.   

I am sure I will have additional questions, but thanks to all of those who have responded and welcomed me to the forum. 

A special thanks to Mad Murdock for his sage advice and recommendations as well as AK Newbie's strong support for the Logosol products.  Just so you know AK, my original "wish" was to build the cabin in Alaska, on some undeveloped property I wanted to buy north east of Homer.  So you are apparently living my 'dream', and I am very jealous.  My wife and law partner got together, and have convinced me that I should build it closer to home, so that we could use it more.  So my partner is going to buy the land, and I will build the cabin, and both families can share it.  She is currently looking for land to purchase up around Mount Shasta/ Mineral Area, (about 2 hrs away).  Now that the "women" are involved, however, I suspect my rustic hunting and fishing cabin may have to include some modern conveniences. 

[mad murdock]

Sounds like you have a good plan. The key to "speed" with a CSM as I have discovered is using a "thin kerf" ripping chain, at least that is what has worked best for me. Baileys sells the Logosol branded bar and stihl "picco" ripping chain, both made for stihl saws,'but can be adapted to other brands as well. My first hand results over standard 3/8" pitch Carlton milling chain has been a solid 30% increase in cutting speed, which to me is a big deal.  You will be happy with the M8 if that is how you end up going, I may upgrade my Alaskan setup to that eventually as well. I like the versatility of a CSM, as it allows me an almost unlimited number of products to cut out of almost any sized log, if it is too big initially, I freehand rip it down to size then cut away.  On my bigger trees that I will be getting to soon, 7 1/2' dbh doug fir, I will be able to cut a lot more CVG cants with the CSM than any other method, which will allow maximum value for the high grade pieces. I am really interested in following your project and hope you have a safe satisfying time creating your dreams!  Glad to have been a little help.

[MotorSeven]

Logosol M8 on sle @ Bailey's- $1799
A "proper" milling saw used - $500,  new $1200
Milling chains to get started - $100

I'm not knocking the system, it works, but you will be into it for for anywhere from $2399 to $3099. It is not only the time to make cuts, it's time to sharpen chain and these things add up. @ $3100 you are getting close to new small band mill prices & used larger one's.

Make an informed decision and run both a band mill and a CSM. I wish I had done this because I spent a lot of time & effort educating myself the hard way. The only way to truly know which mill to get is to experience them....imho.

[AK Newbie]

Dave your right I am living the Alaskan Dream!  There are so many adventures to be had here that I hardly know where to start!  Summers are pretty short and we have property in Seldovia where we try to spend lots of time chasing halibut and other saltwater species.  My sawmill time is reserved for the winters. Running the Logosol has been a tremendous amount of fun and very satisfying.  No matter what kind of mill you settle on the satisfaction of taking a tree and turning it into something you and your family and friends can enjoy is hard to describe.  The Mount Shasta area should be a spectacular background for your cabin adventure!  The best part is it will be close enough to enjoy on a regular basis.  I have been bitten by the saw mill bug and I suspect before to many more years have passed I will upgrade to a band saw mill.  The Logosol fits my current situation and allows me to create lumber on site in a remote setting.  Good luck with which ever option you settle on!

[Left Coast Chris]

Hi Dave,

Im up in Anderson only a stone's thorw away.  Im coming in late on this thread so apologise if I throw out some added ideas a bit into the journey.  I graduaded Chico State in 83 with a Civil Engineering Degree..... love Chico.   

I have been a bit of a pioneer also wanting to stay fit after being at the desk all day.   I started the hard way by building my own mill.   I made my way through college welding and metal fabricating so it was a fun projet.  It is a Woodmizer LT30 manual clone with a 24 horse honda twin.  I have about $3k into it.  I cut mostly english and black walnut along with yard trees for wood working.   Have had lots of fun over the years and sawn a few big and long softwood trees but its pretty tough work even for us gut it out types.    You are very welcome to come by and see the mill and wood collection.   I haul logs with an old propane tank hauler.  You can see it in my profile.   Works pretty good.

Some thoughts on the cabin;   for us in Ca most jurisdicitons have adopted the International Building code.   It would be good to discuss with the building dept regarding what they will want regarding lateral analysis.  Since the cabin is so small they may concur with allowing it to follow conventional framing rules (little engineering) provided the vertial logs can transfer shear to the foundation.  They will be great vertically but the domino affect is a concern unless they are pinned to transfer the shear.  Thats where horrizontal logs do well and don't require a whole lot of pinning.   In high school I helped a contractor build Lindal Cedar homes for a couple of years and they stack horrizontally.    Your top plates and connection to your roof diaphragm will be important also since you have some weight in the walls regarding seismic loading.    Just some thoughts.  You are in Chico and there are plenty of Engineers around so you probably have all this covered.   Great project.  Be sure and post some pics as you progress and don't hesitate to PM me if you want to stop in.

Also as a side note, I know a guy in Cottonwood with an LT40HD he is thinking of selling.  Not sure if he has sold it but as of a couple of weeks ago he needed to move it out of Trinity County from his old place that just sold.  Some learning curve but it makes sawdust so you would catch on pretty fast.

[SLawyer Dave]

Nice to make your acquaintance Chris:

I graduated from CSUC in 90, (did the 5 year plan =), and fell in love with Chico, so I had to figure out a career to stay local.  I am pretty familiar with Anderson area, (grew up in Corning).  Delivered a lot of hay and done some pig hunting in my youth up your way and I travel to Redding a couple days a month for bankruptcy hearings.

I would love to come up and see your mill in action.  Every once in a while, I get a good walnut log, and will have to see if I can get it up to you.  Its really a waste just cutting them up for firewood. 

My dad was always too cheap to hire much done, so I learned building from him.  Most of the time, permits were not part of the plan.  =)  In the few times I have used permits, I generally took my plans to a local architect, and he drew them up to the building departments requirements.  So I know I am going to need some help in getting my plans "approved".  I do have a little experience in working with building departments and non-conventional construction.  About 12 years ago, I helped a local group get approval of the first "straw bale" built house here in Butte County.  At least at the time, I was working with the Uniform Building Code, and adding a 'legal presence' in order to obtain exemptions due to the unique materials and building system.  Luckily, there was an international group of builders and engineers who had fashioned the "standards" for such builds, and it was a matter of making the department look to outside sources for such a unique build.  I am hoping to do something similar here, (and maybe I could hire you to potentially help =) 

I am planning on modernizing a 16th and 17th century French technique that has literally "stood the test of time".  Due to the unique realities of swell and shrinkage due to seasonal climates and moisture variations, it becomes problematic to "pin" vertical logs together to protect against shear.  In traditional building, the vertical logs were pinned in place only vertically to tie them to the bottom and top plates.  I was planning on doing this also, but more for tying the roof and walls to the foundation.  To account for "shear" and domino forces, I have two systems.  First, the double splines connecting each vertical log will be 1/2" exterior grade plywood, 2" wide and a full 8' single length piece, fitting into a 1" depth channel in each log.  Each channel will have Amerilast or equivalent 30 year adhesive calking, so as to create a semi-flexible bond that will not crack and can flex as the logs swell and shrink with the seasons.  In order to avoid pinning each log to the next horizontally with a static "pin", I am going to drill two horizontal 1" holes, one foot from the bottom and top of the 8' wall logs, directly in the center of the logs between the two spline channels.  I will then insert 3/4" allthread round stock laterally through the full length of the wall.  Then at the ends, (and any doorways or window openings that might intersect), I will drill a recessed hole in which I can thread on a large washer and double nuts.  In this way, I can literally squeeze the logs together to create a "single wall unit", that should allow some flexibility for the swelling and shrinkage necessary for log construction, while at the same time giving a very strong anti-shear connection between each log that will allow me to create a very stable wall.  This is also why my four corner logs will be the largest and most important logs, as they will be drilled and faced at a 90 degree angle, and anchor each wall section to the next.  I will then plug any such holes with removable plugs, to keep rain and moisture from getting into the interior of the logs, (and allowing me access to tighten or loosen the allthread as might be necessary).

I am a lot less confident on the connection between the bottom/top plates.  My original idea was to use the traditional method of double splining at both top and bottom connections, as this greatly enhances R value and lateral strength.  Then to use log anchors vertically through the top/bottom plates to lock them into the center of the vertical logs to protect against vertical and uplift forces  The roof rafters would then be anchored into the top plate, again with log anchors.  My concern is that while this should be more than adequate for strength, (there are 400 year old buildings using this same technique), I don't know if this will appease a building department, or an engineer such as yourself, especially with some of the new storm tie requirements I have read about.  I can't see why such ties could not be used, however, so that is kind of a back up plan at this point. 

If you have any suggestions, I would love to hear them.

[Left Coast Chris]

Hi Dave,

I'm happy to help and enjoy an interesting project/challenge.  The five year plan at CSUC is pretty popular (thats what I did also)  .  I did transfer from Lassen College in Susanville where I was on the three year plan but had alot of fun in sports while deciding on a major.   Humboldt State reported a 5% placement rate for natural science majors wanting to be a game warden so I switched to Civil Engineering.   I have really enjoyed it and its been pretty handy for enabling my project addiction.   : 

Using the splines between logs aids in a friction connection and the all-thread thru rods in tension increases the friction between logs.  It is likely to perform adequately but would not be an allowable load transfer for calculation purposes.    The older UBCs had an allowance for full scale testing but that is not likely to be practical. Almost all log structure research, loading analysis, detailing and methods are based on horrizontal logs.   Connections between logs are either through rods in snug holes for dowel action, wood pins, steel pins or lag bolts.   Not sure how these designs perform for swell/shrinkage so that may be a valid concern.  I would expect that it would not be an issue since there is some minor movement provided in a pin.  Swell and shrinkage would be expected to be largest accross the grain instead of length wise in the log so the pins would not likely inhibit wall movement in the direction of greatest swell.  For horrizontal designs where no pins are used the knotched intersections with adjacent walls provides some shear or lateral load transfer between logs.   They do fail and displace under higher loads which is what the new IBC ends up requiring for analysis.
 
It would be good to sit down and sketch out some ideas for load transfer sometime when you are up this way.   There are alot of ways to make it work especially in a smaller structure such as the cabin.     The vertical logs present a challenge but the sill and top plate could be a notched horrizontal log or sawn board with nails, spikes or lag bolts into the ends of the logs.  Standing the walls up and connections between walls would be the next consideration.   The starting point would be a floor plan, side views and dimensions so we can come up with a rough idea of the wind and seismic loading and go from there.   If you are set on vertical logs and pins or bolts are not desirable, we could provide seperate lateral load resisting elements such as conventional shear walls on the inside, steel pipe or tube posts with moment resistant footings simular to a pole barn or other elements we can hide.   Another somewhat out of the box solution is to incorporate vertical logs to the ends of a heavy timber truss so they have moment resistance up high similar to a steel frame for a horse arena.   They have fixity at the top of the column for lateral stability.   Lots of possibilities.   You sound like you have done a bit of research so you may have some alternative detailing ideas that we could make work.   I did engineer a straw bale home here in Ca a number of years back and it ended up being a braced frame with straw bale infill to make the seismic work.   Not a problem but it did add cost to the structure over conventional framing.

Thanks for a stimulating conversation and I look forward to helping.