Chainsaw fellers / manual workers disappearing

[Wudman]

Some pretty good points are made above.  I grew up on a farm (tobacco, hogs, cattle, small grain) in Southern Virginia.  I remember the good days when we were making bank, and then the world turned upside down in the late 70s.  There were about 65 hog producers in our local association.  I think one survived beyond 1983.  We were not that one.  College was my route to be able to hold onto the farm.  I have two sisters that went the same route.  My older sister has a Bachelor's and Master's in Agricultural Economics from Virginia Tech.  She has a PhD from Duke.  She was a Professor of Economics and an Extension Specialist with Virginia Cooperative Extension for about 20 years.  She left there to establish an Agricultural Program in the Virginia Community College System.  She is now a Dean at one of the Colleges.  She has mentored thousands of kids and helped numerous farmers on the planning side through her tenure.  College was her path off the farm while still maintaining her roots.  She has helped my parents immensely through the years.

I wanted to stay in the area.  Farming was in my blood, but I did not see a path forward for a living.  A degree in forestry from Virginia Tech was my route out and back.  My older sister and I own a farm about a mile from my parents.  Today, I piddle on the farm because I want to.  I am at peace sitting on a tractor running the Bushog, chainsaw in hand cutting firewood, or playing with the sawmill.

My younger sister also went to Tech and graduated with a Degree in Education.  She has been an elementary school teacher in the local system for the last 30 years.  Her home adjoins my farm.  

For us, college was the appropriate path forward at the time.  For my kids, not so much.  My wife and I have a combined family with 4 kids (3 girls and a boy.)  My younger sister has two boys age 19 and 20.  Today, there is "pressure" for all kids to go to college.  I see bunches coming out with useless degrees and then working in retail or other menial jobs because of their "useless degree".  Our kids took different avenues. The two older girls are in the medical field, each with technical training.  Their path forward is their decision.  There are plenty of opportunities.  The youngest is a dental assistant working toward  hygienist credentials.  She has dentists calling her offering job opportunity.  Our son is an equipment operator.  He can run about anything.  Currently, he has found his niche in horizontal boring installing fiber optic lines for Verizon.  He has had the opportunity to see the country.  He likes drilling in Florida sand better than Colorado rock.  He was in Southern California when the pandemic started and determined that place is "crazy."  He is making good money with all expenses paid plus a per diem while travelling.  He likes what he is doing and people are chasing him to get him on the payroll.  My sister's older son is in college working on a Degree in Building Trades.  His Dad works for a commercial building contractor.  The son is following in the same footsteps.  He has worked summers and an internship for the company and has a job lined up upon graduation.  The younger son went to lineman school.  He is an apprentice with the local power company.  There is plenty of opportunity ahead for him.  My youngest daughter's boyfriend graduated a year ago with a degree in Engineering.  He worked his way through school working for an electrician.  He qualifies for his electrician licensing now and could always fall back on that.  He did an internship while in school with a commercial building contractor wanting to actually learn something.  The site supervisor treated him as a "go-fer".  He told me that he spent all his time pushing a broom, cleaning up, and going for lunch.  He didn't get to learn anything of value to him.  However, when he finished school, the company hired him as a site engineer.  Guess who reports to him now?  I guess what I am saying is that not all kids benefit from a college education.  There are other avenues to success.

It reminds me of a story I read in Reader's Digest years ago.  It was under one of the humor columns.  A father was bragging on the success of his 8 kids. He said, "Four are doctors, two are lawyers, and one is a NASA rocket scientist".  The guy he was talking to said "That is only seven.  What about the eighth one."  "Oh, he is a plumber.  He put the rest of them through school."  Have you tried to find a plumber, electrician, HVAC guy, or a good truck driver lately?  Plenty of opportunity out there.......just need somebody to fill it.



Wudman              

[moodnacreek]

Handle design has changed for the worst. Shovels, rakes, most any hand tool today is not for all day use because nobody does.

Now that is an interesting and pertinent observation. I've been having no end of grief finding decent hay fork, shovel etc... handles not to mention axe handles since leaving a collection of self-preped billets behind. It's not like it was when you'd think ahead and plant your ash around the property anticipating a regular need for keeping tools in condition and then making them to suit yerself. At the same time these overly bulky handels available at the farm store, we won't even go into fiberglass, they're yet another example of a loss of refinement brought on by, for one thing poor working practices and this ever creeping tendency to over engineer, the engineering mind having a disconnection from actual working conditions.

One year I drove the tractor over my grandfather's corn knife. My wife sent away for a new one for Christmas and the handle was huge, I sent it back. It was then I started to see that people thought and bought fat handles so they would not break, thinking this was quality. With the exception of John Henry and Paul Bunyan you can not hang on to these clubs.

[DonW]

It's an instructive, maybe even enlightening thing, to pick up an old axe by its handle, it almost wants to hang in your grip with no effort and then to compare with the one in the Ace rack. You want to hang it back up as soon as possible just from having a look. Who'd even contemplate doing a days work with this tool after that? Rather go sit at the x-box, whatever that is. 

[stavebuyer]

If you really want to delve into it; I think you can trace every bit of our social downfall to "women's lib". Raising children takes two parents. Fathers need to serve a purpose beyond being sperm donors and paying child support. Women who think they can "do it all" are only short changing their children.

[BAN]

The workforce in the woods up here is aging no matter if its in equipment or on a saw. I'd say average age of a logger is around 55-60. Very few few cutters left. I've been training all three of my guys to be able to cut but we are the outliers.  Was on a fire last year and there were 5 modules(10 guys). Three of us were 30-50 my son of 22 and the other 6 were 60+ in age.

[moodnacreek]

If you really want to delve into it; I think you can trace every bit of our social downfall to "women's lib". Raising children takes two parents. Fathers need to serve a purpose beyond being sperm donors and paying child support. Women who think they can "do it all" are only short changing their children.

The cold hard truth.

[Autocar]

In my opinion we can also blame cell phones and computers for a lot of the crazy stuff that goes on now a days. I have always told young people to think for them selves and not to let someone else do the thinking for them. Hard work that's what I grew up knowing, and mom and dad was respected not like the kids now a days if I acted like some of these folks act towards there parents today I would had my butt beat till I couldn't set down. I remember once I got my butt beat at school for running in the hall ,when I stepped off the bus dad was there with his belt I tried to out run him and found out that was a bad idea  ;D

[Will.K]

If you really want to delve into it; I think you can trace every bit of our social downfall to "women's lib". Raising children takes two parents. Fathers need to serve a purpose beyond being sperm donors and paying child support. Women who think they can "do it all" are only short changing their children.

That's a fairly shallow delve. Women's "liberation" only served to allow women to degrade themselves in the same way men already had. The problems are much older than that.

[petefrom bearswamp]

Back on the main subject, a good many guys with a skidder and chainsaw around here.
A lot of our timber is on ground not conducive to mechanization.
My dad was convinced 60 yrs ago that the youth of that time was lazy and not into manual labor and it would result in ruin.
Society has managed to survive and I m sure still will in spite of the perceived laziness.
The only time I use an axe now is my 1958 model double bit to split kindling.
The handle is great.
My 30 yr grandson is a dynamo.
I think there is still hope.

[mike_belben]

Ive taken to making my own handles.  I cant say i know what im doing but i know when my hand likes it.   

[Kim_Ked]

The last time I split with an axe I ended up heat stroked, vomitiing and severe shivering for days. The doc said I nearly killed myself. I wanted so badly to finish it that afternoon and my wood splitter died earlier. I was just in a rhythm splitting along, I didn't think I was as over exerted as I was until I woke up laying by the wood pile sick as a dog a feeling like I was freezing to death. Bad muscle convulsions all over. I *DanG near crawled to the house. It was very hot outside that day.
I do like the physical labor when I can get to go do some but I'm not in the best physical shape and do have a limit to heat after to much time working in the sun. I do like the wood splitting though with the splitter. I usually only do it in a few spurts through the year. For mine, my dads and sometimes a bit to sell.
Its *DanG good exercise but not overtaxing like running a chainsaw is to me. 
Ironically enough, I just bought a new Husqvarna XP chainsaw. Iv been waiting for it since November. They said it should be in this week.  Just cause I'm out of shape doesn't mean I don't like to use the gear a bit and try to get in better shape when I occasionally get the chance. Plus, my Dads been running the same 2 old Jhonsered saws for years. Hell be pumped when he grabs the new XP model!

[mike_belben]

if you're peein maple syrup its time to have another water kim_ked!

[dukethebeagle]

the dollar being slowly and steadily ruined is at the heart of all these issues.  the costs continually rise, the margins continually shrink, the regulations continually expand.  

its an accepted truth, that there are "two ways to enslave a nation, by the sword and by debt."  well we know we arent being enslaved in open combat, but if you cant see the debt slavery then youre a fool. it is coordinated and calculated. i took action to get off the dollar when my awareness grew around 2010-12.  taking what i had then and converting it into real assets .. literally just a big hardware store in boxes in a cash-bought field with low taxes and few regs, is the only thing that allows us to do well now and it would be so much harder to be starting it now.. so dont wait.  it only gets harder with time.   we are doing well on a single $13/hr income...  and thats a medical job with an associates degree and 20 years experience.  that whole climb the ladder concept is a pure lie here.  theres no ladder to climb unless you own the ladder and exploit other people's debt leverage, paying them just enough to show up.  and i say that exploit part lightly.  it isnt the ladder owners fault if someone else is broke and takes a job offer at market rate.  matthew 20 gives us God's opinion about it. all he cares about is that the employer and employee honor their agreements.. not that you had a collective bargaining agent get you the best deal and "fair" blah blah blah.  fair is suffering for your mistakes, and not someone elses.  when government makes everything fair they are simply distributing a more equal misery to all.


the country is being conquered by decree, insurance, and money printing.  the only way you can fight it is to be out of debt, collect things that retain their value and utility without expiration, and not having anything nice enough to need insurance.  it is a very abnormal life for anyone born in the USA after vietnam.  or should i say the USSA?


as for the kids work ethic.. i dunno. i am doing the very best i can but television is a problem.  i am extreme about limiting it or taking it away but theyre already addicted to watching youtube vids as soon as i turn my back.  you can make literally millions of dollars by youtubing your minecraft or nerf wars sessions with absolutely no talent so it is very hard to tell a child that you wont make money playing games. you are lying to them.. it might be the most potential they will ever have.  but who knows what the new stupid jackpot will be in a decade.  its not possible to know how to set them up for future success anymore because someone keeps moving the cheese.

mine will not have smart phones until they buy them with after-tax dollars of their own, im not doing it.. flip phone at best and im holding off as long as i can on that. but every other 10yr old has an Iphone even if they live in a trailer it seems.. and you cant stop your kid from seeing porn on a phone of some other kids on the bus.  thats the biggest issue.. youve lost control and the ability to shelter them.   the only thing the school is teaching them is about racism.  racism and a funny math that makes absolutely no sense at all. i can sense the reprogramming that nashville is dictating and if it werent for the needed socialization, i would take them out of school completely.   the crap theyre learning is worthless, except how to behave around strangers and deal with crowds without anxiety.  


as for my family. we are free and can stay free without a handout if we avoid the pitfalls.  money has become a false wealth, if your assets were cash based they cut in half just in 2019/20 from a near doubling of the M2 money supply, so im glad i didnt have any to lose, it was already converted to stable storage.  throw in a stock market collapse at some point and a lot of life savings will evaporate.  but bloomberg and the wall street journal arent training people to see if their souls are content or if their marriages and relationships are intact.  they train us to measure all things in dollars.. that are becoming worthless anyway.  i make certain that i have few dollars because they are continually leaking.  if you had a car that peed out motor oil, would you fill it on friday to leak all over the driveway until empty monday morning? you fill the minimum until you can replace the car.. to me the car in that analogy is the wealth storage vehicle, the currency.


i havent left the yard in a week, money disappears if i go to town so its best to stay home and chip away at the homestead where value is created instead of expended.  make machine, collect resource, run resource through machine, build lasting physical asset from resource, avoid debt.
I really like your theory.

[mike_belben]

I really like your theory.

thanks man.  it definitely came with some surprises and a lot of "unpaid" hard work.  not for everybody. 

[nativewolf]

I don't think it is all doom and gloom.  I'm a very educated person, could have been a business school professor at Yale or something like that.  Instead I went back to my forestry roots and am much happier. My oldest son, 22, had opportunities to basically make a grand living in various computing fields and at 16 made more money in a week than I did.  He's out working with a chainsaw because he senses an opportunity in forestry and wanted to know how to do everything.   So the work is not about the $ per se, but about learning the business.  I think many smart young kids today don't actually mind work.  Lots of the small young organic farmers are college educated couples that have no farming connections whatsoever.  

 I've not had good success hiring manual labor but think the deck is stacked a bit against kids nowadays.  If you are a poor kid from WV it is about impossible to get your feet under you if you had a broken home, I've had kids show up to work at a portable sawmill as off bearers who had no bank account, they had to carpool with the one kid that had a drivers license.  They can't get a drivers license because they don't have a house, they cant get a house because they don't have ID, etc etc.  They'd all carpool and then cash checks, they were not good workers but the overhead to getting them to be a good worker was as much work as teaching them how to offbear.  A lot of overhead for a 1 week gig.  Too much.  A couple would have been ok I think with some mentoring and maturity.  


In some ways large immigrant networks are more supportive than our own communities.  Speaking of which.  Why in the heck did we try to stop immigration?  The only large group of people wanting manual labor and we build a wall to keep them out??? .  I just did not get that, in the near future we'll be looking for some manual labor and we're dreading but we'll deal with it.

[mudfarmer]

This is a nicely wandering thread so I'll throw out some more thoughts ;D

Modern forestry practices use very large felling machines; the guy with a chainsaw is disappearing. When baby boomers are gone, there won't be anyone left, more or less, with felling skills. What negative impacts do you foresee this as having on forestry and woodlot landowners?

For instance, let's say there is a woodlot owner who had necessary skills but has reached an age where, for safety reasons or just not wanting to work so hard, he no longer wants to use his chainsaw skills to fell trees for firewood, thinning or timber stand improvement or land-clearing now and then. He is willing to pay someone to do it. Who's going to do it? Loggers with the big equipment won't because the job is too small; it's too much hassle to move the equipment. As for hiring a skilled feller, they are disappearing.

(bolding mine)

There are a number of non-boomers on this forum and even in this thread that have spent a lot of days and years running a saw (I am one of them, some others have spoken up) so I would not worry about the first part.

The second bolded part ties into the first, I think.

There are two parcels I know of right now that are being harvested and then will be sold. One 200 acres, one 600 acres. Both have been stewarded since the 1950s by the owners alone, with no "commercial" harvests except what these men cut, sawed, and sold with their own hands. Beautifully managed forests that are leaps and bounds above anything for miles and miles and miles around. These fellas cut firewood for themselves and a little for sale or friends in need (TSI) and cut softwood when they needed it sawn to build something on the property. Sold a load of sawlogs here and there by all accounts but this would be cutting on 100 acres to get a single load type stuff.

One man is dead and the other is dying. The properties were left to the "baby boomer" sons and instead of continuing the stewarding tradition and passing down through the familial lineage they are being cut so hard it would make your head spin.

Then they go up for sale and you won't have a tree to cut aside from high graded garbage twisted small diameter firewood sticks for a long time. These cutover properties will be for sale for high dollars, actually the same they would sell for if they still had all the timber. As mike belben has said, "some hardwoods with nature trails." These folks inherit property their fathers and grandfathers and mothers and grandmothers have tended for decades, and all they see is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

This is not a unique story. It happens far too often, and it is short changing future generations out of a lot of things, not just the ability to learn how to run a chainsaw.

[mike_belben]

i live on a place that was highgraded and subdivided by some mega rich boomers because theyve been doing just that with thousands and thousands of family acres for decades.  


while it is a shame in some aspects, the flip side is if they didnt reap and dice it, i wouldnt have it.  

the nicest stand i have ever seen in TN is a family managed 1200 acre commercial cattle and crop farm that i almost abut.  they cut the low grade for firewood or barn board and whats matured is super prime gunbarrels.  just a joy to walk through.  an inspiration that makes me go home energetic to piddle in my tiny woodlot. im friends with the current manager who is a grandad now.. probably 3 or 4th gen.  

[Southside]

Why in the heck did we try to stop immigration?  The only large group of people wanting manual labor and we build a wall to keep them out??? 

The US has never tried to stop immigration.  Don't turn this into a political thread and get it moved to the restricted board.  There are members here engaging in a legitimate conversation without the influence of politics.  

[Magicman]

There are very few of our larger loggers that have a chainsaw on the job.  The only thing that is allowed is a pole saw for trimming an odd limb that may be sticking out on the loaded truck.  Insurance.  A chainsaw would immediately cancel their insurance.

[Old saw fixer]

     I have no problem with LEGAL immigration. Illegals on the other hand deserve nothing, the Constitution doesn't apply to them.  No social welfare, nothing but a quick trip back across the border.

[krusty]

I have multiple university degrees and had enough of working for some dysfunctional companies building and selling high tech to the biggest wall street banks. The customers were always far easier to deal with than office politics. Now I work a couple days a week doing odd jobs for locals! Sometimes I help out an arborist buddy bucking up and feeding a chipper. No office politics, great exercise. Love trees and work outside. We sometimes get younger folks who will help climb and take down trees and they each lasted a day as they both had lots of pricey climbing gear but would get tangled up in a tree with their work method. It became priceless to watch.  My buddy can climb most trees and delimb in an hour with the tree coming down in 16" blocks in that 1 hour. The cleanup and removal is always the most work. There will always be the need for manual labour. I live in an area with disposable income and people just pay to get things done so there is always lots of work and not enough people willing to do it. On the other end, people haggle on price far too much. I am all for a good haggle, but people think taking a tree down in between 2 houses should be done for a couple hundred clams sometimes.

Forestry is dangerous work as we all know and the costs for workers comp are steep. 

[JJ]

A lot of points made on this thread were also observations made by Mike Rowe back in 2009:

Learning from dirty jobs | Mike Rowe - YouTube

Mike's common sense needle has been past the stops for long time.

[Will.K]

I do a lot of jobs but my money has come primarily from flooring installation for the last 15 years. Flooring installers are so scarce in the areas I work that old retired guys are being lured back onto their knees by the mercenary fees they can demand. I could easily charge double and often triple my rates and still be booked six days a week. Workaholic floor guys in the midwest can easily gross $400,000 per year with a 2 man crew; hard to guess what they make on the coasts.

Yet almost weekly I run into kids who tell me they used to do flooring. They usually sum up their experience with a story about their destroyed knees or with a simple, "Screw that!" Beyond the aversion to physical labor are several other factors. There is a shortage of good teachers. Tradesmen and laborers of all sorts are becoming increasingly notorious for shoddy work. This not only damages the efficiency of work but customer relations, money profits, the bodies of the workers, and pride in craftsmanship. It is also true that apprentices are too often poorly paid. They are treated as disposable monkeys, good only for a few weeks of dumb labor, and paid accordingly. Thus they act accordingly. In my experience, a person treated with dignity, well taught, well treated, and well paid, will learn rapidly and become an asset. 

I think that almost everyone will get satisfaction out of meaningful, skillful physical labor. It is the mislabeling of labor as drudgery, and the degraded quality of labor, that keeps many from ever discovering this. 

[mike_belben]

Man was sentenced to toil in thorn and thistle for his bread a very long time ago.  Trying to find a way around it is usually a pretty slippery slope. 

[thriceor]

In my experience, a person treated with dignity, well taught, well treated, and well paid, will learn rapidly and become an asset. 

Will K.  -. Amen to that.  We all learn as we go through life.  Treat people well and the grain will separate from the chaff.