$15 / hour Flagman

[Wudman]

I came through a workzone the other day and saw a highly productive flagman.  As normal, there was one flagman situated on each end of the workzone flagging traffic.  I wonder if he ever has a headache on Monday morning, calls out sick, or files a workman's comp claim for heat stress?  Looks like he does his job pretty well.....The two communicate; the flag swings up and the light turns green.



 

Self check-out at WalMart and place your own order on a touch screen in fast food joints......and all the free money you can possibly spend.  I'm on board.  ;D ;D......but stocking up on food and ammo......bought a hot tub and new shotgun.  Thanks Joe.  Now I just have to file my taxes and send it back 10 fold.


Wudman  

[Southside]

I could actually tell which day the stimmy checks hit based on excuses and deposits I received....  

[mike_belben]

 stimmy had harbor freight absolutely swamped today.  I kept a tight grip on my wallet and did some local cash used item business instead. 

[pigman]

I wonder if off camera  there are four workers in a truck with the motor running operating the signal.

[Firewoodjoe]

It kinda scares me the amount of people that I talk to that are ok with this free money. And hope wages go up. Fast food advertises 11-13 an hour now a days. Where do they think all this lonely is going to come from. Our dollar will be worth jack squat before long. 

[Larry]

Who wants to hold flags when they can get "Money for nothin'......."

Dire Straits - Money For Nothing - YouTube

Larry, learning how to play them drums!

[Walnut Beast]

Who wants to hold flags when they can get "Money for nothin'......."

Dire Straits - Money For Nothing - YouTube

Larry, learning how to play them drums!

Crank that stuff up 🎸 and break the bottle of wine 🍷 out Larry when you have your lady friend over next time 👍

[Ianab]

Those portable traffic lights have been common here for years, but generally when a piece of road is down to single lane for an extended time, like a washout that's going to take a week to fix etc). But they simply aren't that smart, and will give 1 car the green while 10 are approaching the other end. So they go back to the manual Stop / Go when it's busier or they are actually working so they can Stop both ends if they are moving machinery etc. 

BTW, Minimum wage here is going up to $20 NZ, which is about $14.33 US. The economy hasn't crashed while it was at the current $18:90, I don't expect it to change in April. 

[SwampDonkey]

If your economy is heavily based on the service industry and food processing then yeah I could see it hitting your wallet. But minimum wage doesn't effect a whole lot of other jobs that are well above minimum wage. Up here, even if you're on a production based rate you have to be guaranteed minimum wage, provided you have the hours. If you show up one day and work 8 hours that week, you're not getting a 40 hr x minimum wage cheque. It don't work that way. :D

[tamarackman]

Replace everybody with machines and wonder why people are clamoring for their $2k checks.

[nativewolf]

It kinda scares me the amount of people that I talk to that are ok with this free money. And hope wages go up. Fast food advertises 11-13 an hour now a days. Where do they think all this lonely is going to come from. Our dollar will be worth jack squat before long.

Everyone's elses currency is worse so by comparison we are doing better than some.

[nativewolf]

Those portable traffic lights have been common here for years, but generally when a piece of road is down to single lane for an extended time, like a washout that's going to take a week to fix etc). But they simply aren't that smart, and will give 1 car the green while 10 are approaching the other end. So they go back to the manual Stop / Go when it's busier or they are actually working so they can Stop both ends if they are moving machinery etc.

BTW, Minimum wage here is going up to $20 NZ, which is about $14.33 US. The economy hasn't crashed while it was at the current $18:90, I don't expect it to change in April.

We see those lights when the one lane bridges are getting work done for a week at a time.  Last week we were driving through Albemarle County and came on to some roadwork, sure enough..someone holding  a sign, another standing there talking. 2 people to flip a sign. 

Like you I don't see the min wage hurting anything.  I'd like to see people working make some money, my son and I frequently comment on the lack of workers.  Then we see the 2 people required to flip a sign and just scratch our heads.   How did the company even find them?  Much less find more than needed?

[snowstorm]

i know a young fella that held the sign flagging for a couple summers. if they were paving there is a lot of walking and heat. then there is dodging cars that will not stop . he got hit once. several times had his lunch box run over. then there are drivers that yell and scream because they have to wait. night work paving was the best. cooler less traffic and you can see the blue lights coming if the cops are in pursuit. most flaggers here work for a temp agency and yes they have to take a 1 day class. if you see 2 flagging there is a third one to give them brakes. state paving jobs paid more. with a little over time it was not hard to make 1000 a week

[Wudman]

Replace everybody with machines and wonder why people are clamoring for their $2k checks.

Around here, people are replaced with machines and computers because they didn't want to work in the first place.  Years ago, following the collapse of the textile industry, my county had an "unemployment" rate of 22%.  We had a candy manufacturer that wanted to occupy one of the shuttered textile buildings.  They held a job fair at the local community college.  They did not receive a single application.  Needless to say, they went elsewhere.  They used the building for storage, but not production.  
If my crews could find them, we could put on 25 truck drivers tomorrow.  My typical company driver takes home north of $1000 per week.  They are pretty good wages for these parts.  Same goes for nurses on a similar pay scale.  We can be having good weeks in the woods and the contracted owner-operator drivers will make it to Thursday morning and disappear.  I have equipment operators that average 4 days per week.  My high production crews now are all Hispanic.  The lack of dependable labor has kept me where I am........and don't even mention the farm side.  On the tree planting side, I have been inspected by the Department of Labor looking for illegal workers.  They will fine us for hiring them, but want to put them on the social welfare rolls instead.  This machine our Government is building can't run much longer.  
Wudman
    

[HemlockKing]

Who wants to hold flags when they can get "Money for nothin'......."

Dire Straits - Money For Nothing - YouTube

Larry, learning how to play them drums!

you know that's REALLY weird you just happened to post that...just 5 minutes ago I put that song on which I thought to myself "haven't heard this one in AGES". 

[WV Sawmiller]

  You know here in America we call them Red lights even though they are green just as much as they are red. Okay, some people call them Traffic lights or traffic signals. Overseas in the mideast and Southern Africa, and I think Europe but I don't remember, they always just call them Robots.

   I remember road construction crews around Beaufort SC when I was stationed there would have flagmen up and the last car they let through they would hand a piece of pink flagging ribbon. If you were the chosen driver when you got to the next flagman ahead you gave him the ribbon and went on your way. He would let a stream of cars through and give the ribbon to the last in line so that piece of ribbon went back and forth all day. The flagmen did not have radios and that was before cell phone days. I guess if someone drove off with the ribbon they would have created a major traffic jam.

[SawyerTed]

One of our first day trips on my motorcycle was on a Sunday afternoon across the Virginia border to Chateau Morrisette winery just off the Blue Ridge Parkway.  My wife did the tasting and I mapped out our next stop which was Foggy Ridge Cidery in Dugspur Virginia (Emily is related to the owners).  Well the GPS directed us off the Parkway onto a Virginia secondary road which really was a wagon path they had put tar and gravel on.  There were no markings on the road and it was narrow enough I suspect two meeting pickup trucks would have had their right tires on the shoulder to pass each other.  

We rode along for three or four miles and topped a ridge and there was a stop light like Wudman's photo. It wasn't quite in the middle of nowhere but I'm pretty sure we could see it off to our right.  We couldn't see down the hill very far either so we didn't know why there was a "stop light".  We stopped because the light was red.  It stayed red what seemed like several long minutes. I was feeling a little silly sitting there with no vehicles behind us or coming from the other direction.  I swear we were beginning to hear banjo music.   Once it changed we rode down one lane to where a culvert had washed out and they were constructing a concrete culvert over a little branch.

We finally made it to the Cidery and had an enjoyable ride home via a different way.

[Dan_Shade]

I think I once found the same road in Wisconsin looking for a cheese factory.

I finally gave up and turned around for the interstate 

[mike_belben]

I got quite the thrill running a semi on those sort of 'can i make it' mountain roads.  Maybe ill upload some vids.

[SwampDonkey]

I was down in VA a couple times with friends who lived in Blacksburgh. I was amazed at places they put pavement down. Some places were more like drive ways or a ride to the woodlot. :D Musta followed the old cow. You'd fit right in with some roads here up in the higher hills, not a straight road anywhere out in Glassville and Knowlesville, climbing and dipping across gullies. They haul lots of wood down them roads. :D

[nativewolf]

Replace everybody with machines and wonder why people are clamoring for their $2k checks.

Around here, people are replaced with machines and computers because they didn't want to work in the first place.  Years ago, following the collapse of the textile industry, my county had an "unemployment" rate of 22%.  We had a candy manufacturer that wanted to occupy one of the shuttered textile buildings.  They held a job fair at the local community college.  They did not receive a single application.  Needless to say, they went elsewhere.  They used the building for storage, but not production.  
If my crews could find them, we could put on 25 truck drivers tomorrow.  My typical company driver takes home north of $1000 per week.  They are pretty good wages for these parts.  Same goes for nurses on a similar pay scale.  We can be having good weeks in the woods and the contracted owner-operator drivers will make it to Thursday morning and disappear.  I have equipment operators that average 4 days per week.  My high production crews now are all Hispanic.  The lack of dependable labor has kept me where I am........and don't even mention the farm side.  On the tree planting side, I have been inspected by the Department of Labor looking for illegal workers.  They will fine us for hiring them, but want to put them on the social welfare rolls instead.  This machine our Government is building can't run much longer.  
Wudman
   

And the crazy part of all that, agree with all of it and sympathize, is that the "illegal" immigrants just want to work.  I mean what's up with that?, a bunch of people that want to work.  Who would have guessed.  So lets be sure to keep them out.  But if they get in don't let them work but put them on welfare.  
I literally could not sleep due to a lack of truck drivers.  We are so small, just needed 1 driver for 3-5 days a week.  Getting trucking was a life saver.  
OTOH in NC many of the textile replacement jobs were very low wage jobs.  I remember a call center for American Airlines trying to open outside Raleigh in 1987?  They closed it up because they could not find low wage labor (think they were trying to hire at $6-7 which was very very low even for then; I made $20 as a tutor for the forestry dept at NCSU).  That was outside Raleigh, not over in the textile belt where many replacement jobs were in the $5/hour range.  So on the one hand wage growth in lower end jobs has been horrible for 40 years on the other hand the good jobs go wanting.  Small dirtwork guy in the valley can't get his son to work with him, son would rather have his Walmart job (at least he's working) even though he'd make more working with his dad and could own his own business in 10 years.  Truly society has some issues and in my opinion the govt is only one manifestation of these issues.
We watch Elon Musk and SpaceX's work to get to Mars with great interest.  If you could really start from scratch...what would society look like.  If every single person had to add value and serve a purpose. If virtually all of "govt" were automated.  Digital currency, digital health records, etc etc.   I do hope to live long enough to see it start, with my cancer issues I doubt I'll see the million people up there but it will be neat to think about.  

[moosehunter]

I've flagged on construction projects. People/ drivers can be complete a___h____s. There ain't enough money for me to do it full time. I value my life more than that.
mh

[tamarackman]

Up here in Canada, farmers have been complaining about the a lack of workers for ever. As a result, they import temporary labour from Central and South America. These workers are more than willing to work 10 hours a day in a hot field picking fruit and vegetable for minimum wage. From there pay the farmer can deduct certain living expenses and the govt kicks in a certain percentage of the cost as well. The workers can be dismissed for any reason making them very compliant.   

Why would any Canadian go work in a hot field for minimum wage when they can make just as much working for McDonald's. As far as I'm concerned, if your business model relies on a workforce that has no other choice but to work at less than their labour's market price, you shouldn't be in business. And I say that as a farmer myself.

[Sedgehammer]

As far as I'm concerned, if your business model relies on a workforce that has no other choice but to work at less than their labour's market price, you shouldn't be in business. And I say that as a farmer myself.

Can I get an AMEN!

And I don't want to hear that they just do jobs that xxxx won't do. No, that's not true. Xxxx won't do it for sub pay. You raise pay till you get workers. That's the REAL cost to do that job. If that job can't pay that, then that job doesn't need to exist.

[Southside]

In too many cases the reality is no wage will encourage far too many to WORK.  They may show up for a paycheck, but actually do the job, and to the best of their ability?  Not everyone, but we have lost personal pride in ones work in this country.  I have heard folks complain it was too nice to work, too cold, too early, too late in the day (right after lunch), didn't sleep last night because the power went out and the fans/radio/lights were all off, so I can't work today - you name it.  

Last fall had a guy show up for a job opening, he was about to run out of his unemployment after extending it three times, he actually told me that he liked the idea of working here because "I won't go home tired".      He was right, he didn't go home tired, the interview wasn't physically taxing at all.  

Just yesterday I was speaking with a neighbor and asked him if he knew of anyone willing to work.  He told me about one guy that lives up the lane from him, but then went on to explain that he is making bank on unemployment, has been for months, somehow refused to go back to work when he was recalled by his former employer, and that "he is hard to get going in the morning", didn't even bother getting the guys phone number.  As far as I am concerned he can go hungry when the unemployment dries up - if it ever does.      

[Raider Bill]

I've flagged on construction projects. People/ drivers can be complete a___h____s. There ain't enough money for me to do it full time. I value my life more than that.
mh

The guys were working a personal injury MVA one night. They had a flare pattern set up with Cops on either end directing the one lane of traffic.

Along comes this pickup truck blasting by and through the accident scene. He hit a nice icy sludge hole on his way out drenching and I mean drenched the cop at that end who flung his flare at the truck. { I know you are not supposed to do that but he had a bit of a temper and it was below zero] Anyway the flare went end for end like a old German potato masher hand grenade and landed in the truck bed.

We looked at each other and I left.

About 5 minutes later fire and police were called out for a burning vehicle. I get the call.

Yepper sure was the same guy who had no idea how the fire started, didn't remember any accident nor driving through one.

I jacked him for DWI and interference.


Now the other side of this whole labor thing is my friend does concrete. Big concrete. High-rises, airports, hospitals that type of thing. He puts out or tries to put out 60 men every morning. He can't find anywhere near enough with the borders closed.

He pays higher than anyone else, A good bit higher and has a good benefit package, family run business that puts their money where most peoples mouth is when it comes to taking care of their employees. Has a bunch of work but no labor.

Used to be most of his crews were black now neither blacks nor whites even apply for the jobs. For awhile he had Vietnamese but even they won't work labor jobs anymore.

His dream employee is someone that can get through e verify, has a drivers license, is bilingual and wants to work concrete.

Can't find laborers or finishers let alone block layers.

It does crack me up when I go visit him. I'll see a guy I know that has worked there a long time. I say Howdy Jose! He say's no no Raider Bill no more Jose, Jesus now or Pedro or whatever as his Id gets moved around to other guys trying to stay a step ahead of ICE....

[Sedgehammer]

That's what happens when people can live on the gov, why work. Sure, they can't make as much as work, but it's not work. You have all day, every day to do nothing or whatever. Yes, there's a certain segment of society that will live that way if they can.

As to the earlier story about the dad and his son wood rather work at Walmart then with dad. Well dad, kick him out of the house. He'll see how fat that walmart check goes.

[Old Greenhorn]

Along comes this pickup truck blasting by and through the accident scene. He hit a nice icy sludge hole on his way out drenching and I mean drenched the cop at that end who flung his flare at the truck. { I know you are not supposed to do that but he had a bit of a temper and it was below zero] Anyway the flare went end for end like a old German potato masher hand grenade and landed in the truck bed.

In a previous life I had kicked in a car door as the driver went right past my hand signaling her to stop and dang near ran over my foot, but bumped my thigh. The entire intersection she was approaching was lit up with flares, light towers, cones, police and fire vehicles she was about to plow into. When I kicked the door she stopped short and asked "where did you come from?!" (In my defence, I swung my right leg around to catch my balance when the car hit me and wound up hitting the door with my boot, but as I did it, I realized it might get her attention, so I added a little OOMPH to it.) ;D

[Wudman]

Up here in Canada, farmers have been complaining about the a lack of workers for ever. As a result, they import temporary labour from Central and South America. These workers are more than willing to work 10 hours a day in a hot field picking fruit and vegetable for minimum wage. From there pay the farmer can deduct certain living expenses and the govt kicks in a certain percentage of the cost as well. The workers can be dismissed for any reason making them very compliant.  

Why would any Canadian go work in a hot field for minimum wage when they can make just as much working for McDonald's. As far as I'm concerned, if your business model relies on a workforce that has no other choice but to work at less than their labour's market price, you shouldn't be in business. And I say that as a farmer myself.

Back when I was farming full time (tobacco), we were running two labor crews.  One was a 4 man Hispanic crew (Mexican) and the second was an 8 man local crew.  The Hispanic crew, by their choice, worked 6:00 AM to 6:00 PM six days per week.  This was 30 years ago and they made somewhere in the neighborhood of $11.50 per hour at the time.  Each of these guys were in their early 30s with families back home.  They would keep enough money to buy groceries for the week and wire the remainder of their check back home.  
The local guys would get paid on Friday.  On Monday, you would have to loan them $5.00 so they could get some lunch.  I had a couple that I had to carry to the county jail at 6:00 on Friday to serve their weekend time.  I could pick them up on Monday morning to go to work.  At least they could be found.  I had to hire a driver to pick up the work crew.  There was not a driver's license in the bunch due to DUIs or failure to pay fines.  The bad part; day in and day out the 4 man crew would have to help the 8 man crew complete their tasks for the day (each crew would pull a barn of tobacco).  I remember my Dad asking one of the guys the first year they were here........"Why are the Mexican people such good workers?"  The response....."In Mexico....no work....no eat....good incentive."  I remember my Dad commenting that it was actually a pleasure to farm again with those guys.  Those 4 guys worked for us for 4 years.  The fifth year they were involved in a bus accident coming up here (still in Mexico at the time) and 3 of them were killed.
Today, my equipment operators make $30.00 / hour.  My laborers are making $20.00.  It is almost impossible to find domestic labor.  Very few can pass a drug test.  A truck driver that wants to work can make $80,000 per year with no problem.  We can't find them.  The average age of my woods crews is well north of 40.  There are a plenty of guys north of 60 still working.  And I will agree with you, a man will be paid what he is worth.
Wudman  

[alan gage]

Replace everybody with machines and wonder why people are clamoring for their $2k checks.

Around here, people are replaced with machines and computers because they didn't want to work in the first place.  Years ago, following the collapse of the textile industry, my county had an "unemployment" rate of 22%.  We had a candy manufacturer that wanted to occupy one of the shuttered textile buildings.  They held a job fair at the local community college.  They did not receive a single application.  Needless to say, they went elsewhere......
If my crews could find them, we could put on 25 truck drivers tomorrow. 
   

Similar story here except that people do want to work. Our county unemployment rate has been running from 2-4%.
Being a rural county our population has been in steady decline for 40 years, just like pretty much every other rural county in Iowa. It naturally follows, with low unemployment, that good help is hard to find which has led many places to follow Wal-mart's lead of higher than expected starting wages. It seems to be working as they get to pick and choose from the labor pool and draw good employees from other businesses.
There are a couple manufacturing plants in town that said they'd expand if they could just find more employees.
There's a really good locally owned farm/hardware store that is always looking for help. They get someone new and within a month they've either quit or been fired. I don't know what they're paying but I know it's pretty low. It's not too surprising they don't get good help when you realize that nearly everyone who wants a job already has one and that if someone is qualified for a job they can get one that pays considerably more with better benefits and room for advancement.
Alan

[mike_belben]

Money doesnt move me.  I quit a mostly easy $32/hr job and ive stayed at grueling ones for $15.  Ive done much worse for free or close to it.  Its just whether i want to or dont.  My capacity to take anyones crap has dried up so the workforce is not for me anymore.. Was sick of being the whipping boy by 15yrs old.  Pay cash, and dont buy what you cant pay for the day it comes home. Its a velvet handcuff in disguise.

[Ianab]

On a local forum there was discussion about minimum wage and unemployment / welfare. One guy made the point that as an employer / taxpayer he was happy that he didnt have to employ some of the oxygen thiefs. It would cost more in lost productivity to have them on site. The unemployment kept them out of his hair.

 

[Raider Bill]

Along comes this pickup truck blasting by and through the accident scene. He hit a nice icy sludge hole on his way out drenching and I mean drenched the cop at that end who flung his flare at the truck. { I know you are not supposed to do that but he had a bit of a temper and it was below zero] Anyway the flare went end for end like a old German potato masher hand grenade and landed in the truck bed.

In a previous life I had kicked in a car door as the driver went right past my hand signaling her to stop and dang near ran over my foot, but bumped my thigh. The entire intersection she was approaching was lit up with flares, light towers, cones, police and fire vehicles she was about to plow into. When I kicked the door she stopped short and asked "where did you come from?!" (In my defence, I swung my right leg around to catch my balance when the car hit me and wound up hitting the door with my boot, but as I did it, I realized it might get her attention, so I added a little OOMPH to it.) ;D

We used to carry at least one case of flares in the cars and used them pretty regular. Down here I've never seen any used.

[Larry]

Listening to the radio this morning and heard an add.  Local glass company wanting help and will pay a $500 signing bonus.  Didn't say what the pay was, but I'm thinking a glazier makes $30 something an hour.  Doesn't require lots of skill for an entry level position.

Last week in the business section of the paper an article said it required $78,000 a year for a family of four to have minimum lifestyle in our area.  Average new house is selling for $295,000.  Might be tough on $30/hour.

[Ianab]

Last week in the business section of the paper an article said it required $78,000 a year for a family of four to have minimum lifestyle in our area.  Average new house is selling for $295,000.  Might be tough on $30/hour.

Median house price in Auckland (NZ biggest city) has gone over $1million. That's not a New house, that's just an average one. NZ$1 is about 70c US, but it's still stupid numbers. Out here in the sticks our ~60 year old house is valued over $300k. That reflects on rental prices for the folks that can't afford to buy of course. 

[SwampDonkey]

Older homes here go for between $40,000 and $90,000. I saw one house flipped three times in 10 years: $40,000, $64,000 and latest $90,000. It's barely worth the $40,000. But we get these outsiders selling $700,000 homes in Ontario (which are $300,000 new here) and coming here playing the markets and driving up prices. They are all welcome to come here, but use your heads a little bit. :D The house we sold a few years back, was a couple retiring from Ontario, but worked for NASA and they have bought and sold twice and now built new and you have to climb steps to get into the place. I bet that will be sold to. ;)

[Don P]

Even $15/hr is not a living wage. The top is driving pricing but the bottom is falling off the back of the bus. We can either bring up the bottom, cap the top or continue until the torches and pitchforks come out. None are all that appealing.

We used to say that all work is honorable and worth doing well. Somewhere along the way we decided that manual labor was shameful. That is actually just about the opposite of the real truth.

[mudfarmer]

Even $15/hr is not a living wage. The top is driving pricing but the bottom is falling off the back of the bus. We can either bring up the bottom, cap the top or continue until the torches and pitchforks come out. None are all that appealing.

We used to say that all work is honorable and worth doing well. Somewhere along the way we decided that manual labor was shameful. That is actually just about the opposite of the real truth.

Well said, Don!

[nativewolf]

That's what happens when people can live on the gov, why work. Sure, they can't make as much as work, but it's not work. You have all day, every day to do nothing or whatever. Yes, there's a certain segment of society that will live that way if they can.

As to the earlier story about the dad and his son wood rather work at Walmart then with dad. Well dad, kick him out of the house. He'll see how fat that walmart check goes.

Son moved out already, he's making almost $20/hour and benefits.  He works.  Good kid.  Just doesn't want to work on broken dirty equipment.  I guess that's my point here.  $20/hr is  starting field hand salary.  Life is expensive here, rents for anything start at $1500/month.  Some apartment over a store in a podunk corner of the valley can be $1500. I mean airbnb for a small house can be $300/night.  They'll have the thing rented for 12 days/week with no problem.  

[nativewolf]

Even $15/hr is not a living wage. The top is driving pricing but the bottom is falling off the back of the bus. We can either bring up the bottom, cap the top or continue until the torches and pitchforks come out. None are all that appealing.

We used to say that all work is honorable and worth doing well. Somewhere along the way we decided that manual labor was shameful. That is actually just about the opposite of the real truth.

Well said!

[Sedgehammer]

Even $15/hr is not a living wage. The top is driving pricing but the bottom is falling off the back of the bus. We can either bring up the bottom, cap the top or continue until the torches and pitchforks come out. None are all that appealing.

We used to say that all work is honorable and worth doing well. Somewhere along the way we decided that manual labor was shameful. That is actually just about the opposite of the real truth.

You are right it's not. but no where can I find that it says one is owed a living wage guarantee. With that said, remove the low skilled illegal that is taking these low entry low paying jobs and wages wood come up and come up quick somewhere in the $7 to $12 range on top of what is being paid now. You cannot have a welfare state and an open border. doesn't work for long. 

[Southside]

Reduce the compliance costs and it will go a long way toward helping the wage side of the equation.  30% of gross income goes towards compliance, some of which is obvious, and some deeply buried.  Think about that 1 dollar in 3.  

Workers Comp is stupid expensive and frankly only exists to keep the state in the mix here.  Forest Use Tax on logs I buy so others can get a break on planting their pine which will be cut for pulp anyway.  Egg Packing tax so the egg board can call me and offer me literature on the benefits of eating eggs only to discover we sell green shell eggs which the girl had never heard of - such sorcery-.  Personal property tax that NEVER depreciates in base, so a 25 year old piece of equipment is the same as a 1 year old one.  It goes on and on.  Nobody in small business is burying buckets of gold, there is no room for higher wages.  Now look at the breaks big business gets, all subsidized by small business, and there is room, but that is a political button that TPTB will never touch.  

[tamarackman]

Even $15/hr is not a living wage. The top is driving pricing but the bottom is falling off the back of the bus. We can either bring up the bottom, cap the top or continue until the torches and pitchforks come out. None are all that appealing.

We used to say that all work is honorable and worth doing well. Somewhere along the way we decided that manual labor was shameful. That is actually just about the opposite of the real truth.

You are right it's not. but no where can I find that it says one is owed a living wage guarantee. With that said, remove the low skilled illegal that is taking these low entry low paying jobs and wages wood come up and come up quick somewhere in the $7 to $12 range on top of what is being paid now. You cannot have a welfare state and an open border. doesn't work for long.

As was stated previously, the illegals are just like you and me; they just want to work. If businesses that hire illegals are vigorously penalized, the problem will be solved.

[Sedgehammer]

Reduce the compliance costs and it will go a long way toward helping the wage side of the equation.  30% of gross income goes towards compliance, some of which is obvious, and some deeply buried.  Think about that 1 dollar in 3.  

Workers Comp is stupid expensive and frankly only exists to keep the state in the mix here.  Forest Use Tax on logs I buy so others can get a break on planting their pine which will be cut for pulp anyway.  Egg Packing tax so the egg board can call me and offer me literature on the benefits of eating eggs only to discover we sell green shell eggs which the girl had never heard of - such sorcery-.  Personal property tax that NEVER depreciates in base, so a 25 year old piece of equipment is the same as a 1 year old one.  It goes on and on.  Nobody in small business is burying buckets of gold, there is no room for higher wages.  Now look at the breaks big business gets, all subsidized by small business, and there is room, but that is a political button that TPTB will never touch.  

The driving force that keeps small business income down is the availability of subsidized cheap labor. Remove that, then prices will have the ability to rise due to labor not being subsidized and labor will also rise. Typically with businesses ahead of the rising labor wage curve

[Iwawoodwork]

Southside. the alternative before the worker comp system, which was promoted and supported by business, was for the injured worker or family of the deceased to take the case to court. for some reason the employers did not like those court settlements that could be up to several million that I am aware of. So do away with the comp system which keeps the employer cost to a known level or let the workers or families go to court, nothing like a grieving widow with 2-3 small kids in front of a jury.
The way  to lower the workers comp rates is for the industries in your SIC category is lower the injuries, that is what what comp costs are based on.
Another system that has been proposed here in Oregon back in the 1990,s was to have Universal Health Care for all and merge all types of the health systems into one, Medicare, veterans, workers comp, private health ins, etc, the proposal research indicated that the cost of universal would be noticeably less for better coverage than all of the cost of the separate programs. 

[mike_belben]

We used to say that all work is honorable and worth doing well. Somewhere along the way we decided that manual labor was shameful. That is actually just about the opposite of the real truth.

Agreed.  I think outsourcing, corporate strip mining and debt levereraged corporate stock buybacks (to raise the stock price that is part of the executives pay, paid for by debt that the company is saddled with to do it) is a shameful disgrace. Wall street applauds getting rich at anyones cost. 

[Claybraker]

Something I remember from one of those boring economics classes in college 40 years ago was the difference in how the the Midwest advanced faster economically than the South after the Civil War.  Both regions were agricultural, but labor was more expensive in the Midwest so they invested capital to make labor more efficient to generate more production/hour. The South lured textile mills with cheap labor. Some where along the line we figured out ONE Yankee is worth Two Bales of cotton and easier to pick.

[mike_belben]

The driving force that keeps business income down is the availability of subsidized cheap labor. Remove that, then prices will have the ability to rise due to labor not being subsidized and labor will also rise. Typically with businesses ahead of the rising labor wage curve

I disagree.  Get rid of the immigrant and the stone will stay in the bank, the seedlings will not go in the dirt and the crop will rot in the field.  
The white man with a disability check, free healthcare and an EBT card is not going out to replace the lowest wage earner. Im surrounded by these public pillhead couch potatoes.. Im thinking of atleast 30 people.  You take the checks away and theyll get off the couch at 3am to steal from me, not get up at 6am to pick cotton.  
Nothing is gonna make all able americans work but mass hunger and thats been outlawed.  We are seeing the conversion from capitalism to socialism.  That simple. It took about a hundred years to orchestrate precisely this situation.

[Sedgehammer]

The driving force that keeps business income down is the availability of subsidized cheap labor. Remove that, then prices will have the ability to rise due to labor not being subsidized and labor will also rise. Typically with businesses ahead of the rising labor wage curve

I disagree.  Get rid of the immigrant and the stone will stay in the bank, the seedlings will not go in the dirt and the crop will rot in the field.  
The white man with a disability check, free healthcare and an EBT card is not going out to replace the lowest wage earner. Im surrounded by these public pillhead couch potatoes.. Im thinking of atleast 30 people.  You take the checks away and theyll get off the couch at 3am to steal from me, not get up at 6am to pick cotton.  
Nothing is gonna make all able americans work but mass hunger and thats been outlawed.  We are seeing the conversion from capitalism to socialism.  That simple. It took about a hundred years to orchestrate precisely this situation.

I said you need to remove subsidies that keep labor cheap. Welfare to the able bodied is a HUGE part of the subsidized labor and the other main component is cheap illegal labor or cheap visa labor. Why work when you can sit at home and get a check and prices stay low cause there's an illegal to do the work. As to the crop. As someone mentioned earlier about the illegal asked why they work so hard and he said if you don't work, you don't eat. This also applies to the stone staying in the bank and the seeds not going in the dirt. The seeker for profit will always and I mean always seek things to make money. The farmer will plant if there's money to be made. People must eat, so food they will buy. The banker only makes money if he's lending money. He will lend where there's profit to be made. Rinse, wash, repeat.

[mike_belben]

Well then im more in agreement.  Welfare is the biggest thing raising the cost of labor.  Its a comfy alternative to the toils of actual work.  

Look into the cloward and piven strategy sometime. 

[WV Sawmiller]

   I'm not sure what our politicians plan but unless the regs have changed farmers are not required to pay their workers minimum wages at present nor do they have to pay overtime rates of pay or honor other related pay scales. 

[thecfarm]

Those lights are very common in my area. 
Those that are at home with a welfare check, EBT, free fuel to heat the home, free medical, why work for minimum wage?

[mudfarmer]

What is a "welfare check"? Is that the Temporary Assistance program that I found when searching? Or is there some program that actually sends people money long term for doing nothing (aside from social security/disability)?

This is not a trick question! I collected unemployment insurance for a little while one time but have had to pay my own way through life. Just doing some research on this lavish government funded lifestyle you guys are talking about. I know somebody with a mental illness that managed to get some type of disability to pay for their housing I think but not sure on the details.

It looks like average monthly SNAP money per person has been between $125-190 for the past few years, that would definitely cover wife and I together but we produce as much of what we eat as is feasible at present.

It was suggested to me by a couple folks on here to get in on selling firewood to the government HEAP people, is that a good idea?

So many questions..

[Wudman]

I think the total package of assistance programs are lumped together as "welfare" by the majority of us talking about it.  That would include:

1) TANF - Temporary Aid to Needy Families - The more children in the household, the bigger the assistance.  The "temporary" is the subjective part.
2) SNAP - Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program - Generally referred to as "Food Stamps"
3) Medicaid - Tax payer paid health care
4) SSI - Disability Insurance - The fraud in this system is the objectionable part - The folks drawing with non-existent injuries, mental issues, and drug dependency
5) Section 8 Housing vouchers - Subsidised housing
6) Energy Assistance Program - Taxpayer pays your lighting and heat bill
7) Cell phone program
8. Child Care Assistance
9) The just passed Covid-19 assistance bill - Gives a $300 per child per month direct payment among other things

In my opinion, the bad thing about these programs is that people that are trying to make it often don't qualify for anything.  If you own nothing, you qualify for the full array.  There are "asset" limits in play.  There was a profile done recently on one of the news stations out of Richmond, VA.  The jist - an unmarried mother of 3 living within the city in subsidised housing received benefits equivalent to a job that grossed $66,000 per year.  Where is the incentive to try and better yourself with that in play?    

For years, my wife worked in nursing homes and assisted living facilities.  She came home one night steaming.  She had two patients that needed the same drug.  One was a career military man that served in WWII.  He retired at the rank of Brigadier General.  His insurance benefits did not cover the new medicine.  The second patient was a severe alcoholic in his early sixties.  He had received SSI and was on Medicaid.  Medicaid covered the tab.

In my area, trucking companies will train an individual at no cost, pay you while you train, and provide a job starting around $55,000 per year with a signing bonus to get a commercial driver's license.  The same goes on the medical side.  There is a hospital just west of me.  If you are an employee (any employee - custodial, food service, clerk, etc) they will cover your tuition to become an LPN or RN if you agree to work for them for a year following your licensing.  They will cover your cost to become an MD with a 5 year contract to work for them.  Some of the rural communities in Virginia have similar programs to become an MD.  

Enough ranting before I get banished to the Woodshed.  



Wudman

[Southside]

  I'm not sure what our politicians plan but unless the regs have changed farmers are not required to pay their workers minimum wages at present nor do they have to pay overtime rates of pay or honor other related pay scales.

That might be a WV thing but not the case here.  

[mudfarmer]

Thanks Wudman! I will drop it too. That was an enlightening response and I appreciate it.

[alan gage]

I know people who get 'welfare' help who really don't seem to deserve it as well as people who do. But I don't know any of their situations good enough to say definitively who does or doesn't. Most of the people I know who get help work low paying jobs and have multiple kids. I certainly wouldn't want to trade places with any of them.

As with most things we tend to fixate on the abusers when they're most likely the minority. Most people on welfare aren't lazy bums just looking for a free ride and most rich people aren't like Ebeneezer Scrooge but of course they're the ones who stand out and get us the most worked up. Any system is going to be abused by a certain percentage of the people; whether they be poor, rich, or somewhere in the middle.

Alan

[SwampDonkey]

You sure wouldn't live high here on welfare. You'd actually get more money with 5 kids who 100 % qualify for child benefits. No disability required, sign up and count your money. :D  That system had been around for 50 years, only a lot more quid per capita now.

[thecfarm]

wudman has the welfare part right. 
I better be quiet. 

[Sedgehammer]

You sure wouldn't live high here on welfare. You'd actually get more money with 5 kids who 100 % qualify for child benefits. No disability required, sign up and count your money. :D  That system had been around for 50 years, only a lot more quid per capita now.

it's not a matter of living high, it's a matter of living good enough and not having to work

[Raider Bill]

I know generations of families that have lived exclusively on welfare.

Had a discussion with one 3 gen slug who has 7 kids. She said that is the magic number. No taxes and you get the max in gubermint $$$. She said 8 kids didn't pay anymore. Who are da babies daddy? Your guess is as good as her's although she figures at least 3 are in prison.