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Manjisann's Chainsaw Milling Adventures

Started by ManjiSann, October 31, 2019, 09:14:20 AM

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ManjiSann

Staring out the window at the snowfall, it's starting to stick a bit. Weather forecast still saying it's supposed to last until the weekend. Other than not liking snow in general I'm surprisingly not too bummed out. Went and bought drywall for the basement on Saturday so I didn't have to haul it in the wet, I planned ahead a bit  ;) ;) Between overtime at work and finishing the basement, I shouldn't be too bored until I can mill again :)

I'm thinking I'll try and build a jig of sorts I can mount on my bench in the basement that will hold chainsaw chains so I can sharpen them. I could take the chainsaw in but I'm trying to avoid that as much as possible, gas engines really should stay outside as much as possible to my way of thinking. I should have enough scrap angle iron and other bits and pieces around to do it, I just have to find the ambition to work in the cold garage  ;D  Hopefully I'll have the chains nice and sharp so that if/when the weather breaks and is decent for a bit I can get out and mill those two logs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96I7OLDXQt4   This guy is fun to watch and seems to know his stuff.

Watched the youtube video of the fellow building the nice garden bench with a back from logs he'd CSM'd and it got me really thinking hard. I may try and take one of the logs and try to do something like that. I keep thinking about what OG said about building a bench and sealing it while it was green for one of his neighbors. I don't understand building with green wood, goes counter to just about everything I've learned, so I should try building something and see how it dries and acts.

Well back to work

Brandon
Poulan Pro 5020AV, Husky 390XP

Old Greenhorn

You'd be surprised Brandon. I don't think I have tried straight green healthy trees yet, but dead standing trees can dry fairly quickly because they really only have the moisture that they hold from rain, etc. It's partly why I did that bench as a test. I will try to get a look at it this weekend if I can and see how it is doing.
 Benches like the one in the video have a life. They last as long as they are cared for. Without a finish, I am doubtful it will last too long, maybe 10 years if not in direct ground contact.
 Get in there and try it, you will learn a lot, just keep it small until your confidence grows.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

ManjiSann

What kind of finish can be applied to green wood? Would Tung Oil soak in very well?

When the fellow in the video commented about glue not working well on wet wood my immediate thought was of Gorrilla glue since it's SOP to wet the boards to activate the glue. I want to try it.

As you say, I need to try some stuff to see what works and what doesn't go how I expect and why. I can read all I want, reading is excellent, but at some point I need to try. Bright side is I'm only out the cost of fuel as I'm not paying money for the logs I'm getting. 

Brandon
Poulan Pro 5020AV, Husky 390XP

Old Greenhorn

I use either tung oil or danish oil (danish comes in a few shades) and I am still experimenting, that's why I do these small benches then give them away. After it dries (24 hours or less) I put one or more coats of verathane (polyurethane) on it to seal it. To my mind this helps to slow or stop the drying and prevents much movement. This may be all wrong, but that is the theory I am working on anyway.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Nebraska

I think as dry as your climate is I think your basement wood should come down to a reasonable level fairly quickly. The wood I stacked has changed faster than I thought it woulld.  I think you could mess with it while your drywall mud is drying and see what you get.

doc henderson

wet wood is a relative term.  over 100% is too wet for most finish.  oil will be cloudy, and water based may not cure.  tung and Danish will not soak into really wet wood.  the 20% or less will do better.  outside benches will acclimate at 10 to 12 % or so.  the gorilla glue works with wet wood, but will foam up a bit and be a little bit of a mess.  good to experiment with.  and the brand has several types of glue. a three leg bench will set ok even with some twisting.  rustic wet wood stuff, requires some design elements to be considered.  carry on! 8)
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

ManjiSann

I'll see what I can get out of the two remaining logs. 

I already have almost enough to make 2 Adirondack chairs, if I can get enough to make 2 more or even just a third I'll count that a win and try something creative with the remaining log.

The one with the crotch at the top has me puzzled as to how to turn it into regular lumber so I'm thinking a bench sorta like the one in the youtube vid might be just the ticket and would be fun to try. I won't know how feasible it is until I can get out an take some measurements. I've noticed things kinda grow or shrink or distort in my memory  ::) ::) 

Tomorrow it's only forecasted to snow for a few hours so maybe I'll get lucky and Wednesday will be the same and I can get some milling done... wonder if the wife would be mad if I was milling a bit on Thanksgiving day  :D :D would be nice to get those boards in the basement drying a bit while over the winter. As Nebraska pointed out, would give me something to tinker with while the mud is drying.

Brandon 
Poulan Pro 5020AV, Husky 390XP

doc henderson

the chaotic pattern of crotch wood is interesting and pretty, but makes it dry with some contortion.  so you can live with it (rustic) or dry it and re-flatten it.  it is good to know what your plans are for it.  If no plans, then dry it and let the end result speak to you.  It is fun to have a hoard of wood, and when you need something, you then choose from the stash.  You may find you are showing off your slabs, like they are children, to friends when they come over. sounds like you having fun, and we are all rooting for you!  take care.
p.s. the ramble of grain also make a branch point weak, this is true in arteries as well.  if a blood vessel breaks or has an aneurysm, it is often at a branch point.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

ManjiSann

Quote from: doc henderson on November 26, 2019, 09:00:01 AM
the chaotic pattern of crotch wood is interesting and pretty, but makes it dry with some contortion.  so you can live with it (rustic) or dry it and re-flatten it.  it is good to know what your plans are for it.  If no plans, then dry it and let the end result speak to you.  It is fun to have a hoard of wood, and when you need something, you then choose from the stash.  
Good to now about the contortion when drying of crotch wood, I suspected there would be some uniqueness about it with the grain changing. Up till now I've milled just to mill, gain experience, see what's what, etc. These logs are the first ones I've milled in which I'm trying to mill with more of an end goal in mind. So far it's gone pretty well :)  I'm curious to open up the two remaining logs and see what the grain looks like as they both have/had branches coming off... also see if there's any hidden gems  :o :o
I do want a small hoard of wood, would really satisfy that little kid in me that didn't have nice wood. It's rather silly but I get a lot of satisfaction looking at my little stack of wood and wonder what some of it will ultimately become  ??? ???  I'm hoping there's a few cool wall clocks, a cutting board or two, there's the chairs and maybe some cabinets for the reloading bench, but what about the rest, what will it ultimately grow up to be  :) :)

Quote from: doc henderson on November 26, 2019, 09:00:01 AM
You may find you are showing off your slabs, like they are children, to friends when they come over. 
I have already done this  :D :D  


Quote from: doc henderson on November 26, 2019, 09:00:01 AM
sounds like you having fun, and we are all rooting for you!  take care.
I am having a lot of fun! In addition to a wealth of knowledge everyone, on the forum is a kind of positive peer pressure to keep moving forward even if it's only a little. There's been a few times where I get a bit discouraged or overwhelmed and I've thought of something someone posted and it gives me perspective and helps me move forward. Most often it's just to not overthink stuff, have a rough plan and then just get to it. If something doesn't go the way I wanted or thought it should I post seeking advice or post so others can learn from my experience (see I didn't say mistake  ;) so long as you learn from it it's not a mistake, was reminded of that on the forum  :) :) ) 

Quote from: doc henderson on November 26, 2019, 09:00:01 AM
p.s. the ramble of grain also make a branch point weak, this is true in arteries as well.  if a blood vessel breaks or has an aneurysm, it is often at a branch point.
Interesting some of the principles that cross over from animals and plants/trees. It's little gems like this that I really enjoy, thanks!


Brandon 




Poulan Pro 5020AV, Husky 390XP

ManjiSann

Another random unrelated post  :o :o

A few months ago I bought a two stage snowblower for $100. After buying it I did some research and found out it'd been made sometime in the late 70's early 80's. Thing is a tank and in really good condition, especially when you consider its age. 

Got to use it last night for the first time  8) 8) 8)  Still learning some of its quirks but so far I'm loving it!

Brandon 
Poulan Pro 5020AV, Husky 390XP

ManjiSann

I've been reading in other posts about spalting and done some searching but have a few questions.

It sounds like there are some species more prone to spalting than others, maple being the one that comes readily to mind. Is this something that I can encourage somehow and if so how? Do I just seal the ends of the log, elevate it off the ground so it doesn't rot, leave the bark on and just wait a year or so before milling it?

Spalting is the discoloration of the wood due to fungal growth, how does one know the discoloration is due to spalting and not something else?

Is the coloration of rainbow poplar due to spalting? MAN that is some amazing looking wood I've seen in some of the other posts, just incredible. Hopefully one day I get lucky and some comes my way!

Brandon 
Poulan Pro 5020AV, Husky 390XP

Hilltop366

I have seen some spalting in birch as well as maple. The birch bark is very water proof so it will rot out faster than maple, I have found birch completely rotted out on the ground in the woods before with nothing left but the bark still sitting there in the original shape.

I watched the video in previous post (thanks for posting it), my back hurt watching him wrestle those slabs. I was thinking that the crotch end of the log would have made better legs for stability.  

Did you notice he did his milling down hill?

ManjiSann

Quote from: Hilltop366 on November 26, 2019, 10:10:11 AM
I have seen some spalting in birch as well as maple. The birch bark is very water proof so it will rot out faster than maple, I have found birch completely rotted out on the ground in the woods before with nothing left but the bark still sitting there in the original shape.

I watched the video in previous post (thanks for posting it), my back hurt watching him wrestle those slabs. I was thinking that the crotch end of the log would have made better legs for stability.  

Did you notice he did his milling down hill?
I did notice he use a decline to his advantage. I need to remember that. Any thing to save some energy is a good thing :)
Brandon 
Poulan Pro 5020AV, Husky 390XP

Southside

Any hardwood will spalt, I suspect it's true in softwood as well but I just have not seen it.  Basically it's like making cheese, you are dealing with decay and just have to get the speed and timing right before it goes too far.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

ManjiSann

Spent a couple hours trying to make the chain jig this morning... made a lot of metal dust but no jig. Ultimately I resorted to clamping the bar in the vise and used a bungie cord to provide tension to the chain. Works well enough.

Spent time trying to make all the cutters the same length on one of my chains using a micrometer. Not trying to get them .001 the same, I'll accept .005 +/-. It's tedious and time consuming and I'm rather hoping it'll turn out to be a total waste of time so I don't have to keep doing it  ;D ;D  I'm trying to see if having the cutters all the same length will result in a smoother cut.

Most of the time it won't really matter since the board will go through a planer later but if I'm going to be building benches I may want to leave the board as is instead of sanding or planing.

Also changing the angle to a ripping chain instead of the cross cut. This is proving to be a bit more interesting since my jig is set up for 35deg so I'm just eyeballing it and also still learning how to be consistent in my filing. Curious to see how these changes affect the cut. I've been pretty happy using cross cut chains for milling but people keep saying ripping chains are faster or provide a smoother cut or other things. Kinda playing around just to see what happens and if these changes are something I want to pursue for future milling, special situations, or just doesn't matter enough to me.

Anyone got thoughts or can explain why the 10deg angle is better for ripping than the 35?

Brandon
Poulan Pro 5020AV, Husky 390XP

Hilltop366

The 35° for crosscut will pull side to side and cause a ripple in the wood, 10° will not pull as much. Like a ripping blade in a table saw there is no need to have a angle on the tooth for rip cuts.

I ended up sharpening my ripping chain at 0° it cut the smoothest and there was no need to reset the grinder for each side, I was using .404 skip tooth harvester chain with 50 thousand depth of cut on the rakers (16 horsepower) so it was really grabby and with a 35° tooth angle it would leave a 1/8" deep ripple on the wood.

Hilltop366

For hand filing for getting all the angles (what ever angle you choose) the same I was using a bar mount filing guide. It lets you set the angle, file height and has a stop to get all your teeth the same length. With this and a raker depth guide you can get your chains to cut really well right to the last bit when the teeth start breaking off.

Not sure what brand the guide was but a quick search shows poor reviews for the Oregon ones with complaints of flimsy, too much plastic. I see the Granberg one looks all metal.

https://granberg.com/product/g106b-file-n-joint-low-profile/

ManjiSann

Quote from: Hilltop366 on November 26, 2019, 05:39:34 PM
For hand filing for getting all the angles (what ever angle you choose) the same I was using a bar mount filing guide. It lets you set the angle, file height and has a stop to get all your teeth the same length. With this and a raker depth guide you can get your chains to cut really well right to the last bit when the teeth start breaking off.

Not sure what brand the guide was but a quick search shows poor reviews for the Oregon ones with complaints of flimsy, too much plastic. I see the Granberg one looks all metal.

https://granberg.com/product/g106b-file-n-joint-low-profile/

Sweet! I just placed an order for one, should arrive Tuesday.  Much as I want to be that guy that gets amazing results filing free hand I think a good jig would be better and the price on this one is right. 

Also, thanks for the info on the angles. I think I understand what you're saying about ripples/waves in relation to cutter angle. 

Thanks for posting the info!

Brandon 
Poulan Pro 5020AV, Husky 390XP

Hilltop366

I found a picture of an early board before I started to change the chain angle that shows the ripples (for lack of a better description), it is a corner board on our backwoods camp. I took the picture to show a friend the bear tooth and claw marks in the board. 




ManjiSann

Quote from: Hilltop366 on November 26, 2019, 07:43:35 PM
I found a picture of an early board before I started to change the chain angle that shows the ripples (for lack of a better description), it is a corner board on our backwoods camp. I took the picture to show a friend the bear tooth and claw marks in the board.




Ok, I see what you're talking about. You're waves are a bit more consistent than mine :) but I have the same thing. 

Hopefully with the jig I can get more consistent sharpening angles and tooth lengths (assuming I don't hit something :( )  It's not such a bit deal when cross cutting to fell a tree or buck a board but I'm starting to think it'll be a bit more important to me when it comes to milling as I move forward and work to improve my skills.

Brandon 
Poulan Pro 5020AV, Husky 390XP

Hilltop366

I was pulling the saw through the log with a boat winch so it made a more consistent pattern.

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: ManjiSann on November 26, 2019, 04:57:41 PMUltimately I resorted to clamping the bar in the vise and used a bungie cord to provide tension to the chain.

I just set the chain brake and file several teeth.  Release it, move the chain and repeat.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Old Greenhorn

Quote from: ManjiSann on November 26, 2019, 04:57:41 PM

Anyone got thoughts or can explain why the 10deg angle is better for ripping than the 35?

Brandon
I have been meaning to respond to this, but I knew it would take some time, and I finally have a little. I mentioned some of the background of these comments in another thread post I made a few minutes ago (would like some advice in Sawmills and Milling ) so I won't repeat that stuff here.
 In understanding how a tooth cuts it helps to remember that the tooth is pushing against the wood, while at the same time the wood is pushing back (resisting), this goes on until one of them wins (hopefully the tooth wins) and a chip is formed. Now with that picture in your head, look at how the tooth approaches the wood. If there is a 35° angle on the front of the tooth, that means that when the wood resists, the tooth slips off to the side a little until it builds enough force to lift a chip off, and then it begins to cut a little freer until it starts the process on the next chip. This process is repeated over and over by every tooth. The more side angle you have on the tooth face, the more side deflection you will get. Now in a tooth form with 0-10° of front angle, this 'side load' is greatly reduced or eliminated (0°). Because you are cutting WITH the grain, you have continuous contact with solid wood (as opposed to cutting and breaking fibers in a crosscut) so you will get those long noodle like chips.
 I am not sure if I explained this clearly, but that's how the tooth cuts. I hope this may have been slightly helpful to somebody.
Tom
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

ManjiSann

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on November 27, 2019, 09:39:04 AM
Quote from: ManjiSann on November 26, 2019, 04:57:41 PM

Anyone got thoughts or can explain why the 10deg angle is better for ripping than the 35?

Brandon
I have been meaning to respond to this, but I knew it would take some time, and I finally have a little. I mentioned some of the background of these comments in another thread post I made a few minutes ago (would like some advice in Sawmills and Milling ) so I won't repeat that stuff here.
In understanding how a tooth cuts it helps to remember that the tooth is pushing against the wood, while at the same time the wood is pushing back (resisting), this goes on until one of them wins (hopefully the tooth wins) and a chip is formed. Now with that picture in your head, look at how the tooth approaches the wood. If there is a 35° angle on the front of the tooth, that means that when the wood resists, the tooth slips off to the side a little until it builds enough force to lift a chip off, and then it begins to cut a little freer until it starts the process on the next chip. This process is repeated over and over by every tooth. The more side angle you have on the tooth face, the more side deflection you will get. Now in a tooth form with 0-10° of front angle, this 'side load' is greatly reduced or eliminated (0°). Because you are cutting WITH the grain, you have continuous contact with solid wood (as opposed to cutting and breaking fibers in a crosscut) so you will get those long noodle like chips.
I am not sure if I explained this clearly, but that's how the tooth cuts. I hope this may have been slightly helpful to somebody.
Tom
OG, thanks for the detailed explanation! This helps a lot and clarified a number of things for me.
Brandon 
Poulan Pro 5020AV, Husky 390XP

ManjiSann

Haven't really done much on the milling front, it keeps snowing here. I don't mind working in the snow and cold but I don't feel like cleaning up sopping wet sawdust, sounds unpleasant to me. I may have to get over than though  :D

I had a couple days off last week with the holiday and was mostly unproductive but I did work on my basement. My sons room is almost drywalled and ready for mudding. I'm going a bit slow around the window as I've never framed in a window that has cement around it so I'm taking my time to try and do it right. I'd hate to have to redo it because the drywall soaked up moisture from the cement or things settled wrong. I'm pretty sure I've figured out how I'm going to do it and will get started on it tomorrow. I'll have to post a few pics even though it's not milling related. 

Funny story though, my kids kept thinking all the firewood and logs I was getting was so I could finish the basement  :D  Now that I have a milling attachment I guess I could use some for that but don't have any plans to at this moment. 

The sharpening jig is supposed to arrive today, early Christmas to me!! I'll take some time to be rediculously meticulous in sharpening a couple of my chains for milling. I'm thinking I'll have a few for milling (3 or 4 eventually I hope that way if I find treasures with them I can quickly swap out and keep going) a couple that are sharpened meticulously for cross cutting and then a few that are for felling and other things where the cut quality (ie smoothness) just doesn't matter and I can resharpen in the field as needed. It'll give me something to putter with while the weather is cold and I'm waiting for money for the supplies to finish the basement. I also think I'll pull my jack planes out of storage and hope they are still in good condition and play around a bit with flattening the maple I cut, wow about 6 months ago. How the time flies when you're having fun with man glitter  8) 8)

What has me thinking about cut quality on the cross cuts is I was contacted by a lady who wanted to rent some cookies for her sons wedding. I posted a listing on the local version of CL indicating I was interested in logs for milling and to contact me. I explained I was a hobbyist chainsaw miller, no I won't cut down the tree but once it's on the ground I'd be happy to work with it, etc. I'm sure I could do a better job on the ad but it was a start. So far no real takers BUT I'm guessing the lady wanting the cookies put two and two together that I would be using the stuff for crafts and might have cookies lying around. I don't and she needed them by this weekend and as much as I'd have liked to oblige I decided it wasn't worth the rush/stress and likely inability to get a product out that I was ok with. BUT it got me thinking about cutting and drying cookies and other things that are popular with weddings, parties etc. 

I searched the forum and also google and found some interesting stuff. Two methods I may try that I read about. First is using denatured alcohol, soak the cookie in it and the alcohol displaces the water but doesn't cause cracking. The second is soaking the cookie in a sugar bath solution, I'm assuming the sugar is soaked up and takes the place of the water which would reduce shrinking and hopefully reduce cracking. I like both of these ideas as I think they'd both be food safe/nontoxic. I read about using PEG and several other ideas but the two I mentioned seem like the easiest for me to start with. I also read that cutting cookies at an angle so the grain isn't exactly 90deg to the cut helps. I'd finish the cookies with Tung oil or uerathane. 

Brandon 
Poulan Pro 5020AV, Husky 390XP

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