"One Stroke Chain"

lumberjack48 · July 23, 2012, 09:06:35 PM

Full Chisel i better make my self a littler clearer, that was 30 yrs ago buying chain by the loop from a Stihl dealer. They wanted about $23 for a 16" loop, Carlton or Oregon were $10. to $12. for a loop. This was before i had a Carlton dealer ship, i got it after i got hurt. When we had the shop there was a place in NY state i got chain and bars from, they were cheaper then Carlton, you probably know where i'm talking about.

Clam77 · July 23, 2012, 10:32:41 PM

I use 3/16" on my 3/8" chain - works dang good for me and prefer not to waste the time trying to find all the different sizes like 7/32 and 13/64 which are hard to find around here as it is.

5/32" for smaller chain of course.

HolmenTree · July 23, 2012, 11:56:23 PM

Quote from: Full Chisel on July 23, 2012, 06:02:24 PM
If you come across some current accurate Rockwell #'s on Stihl and Oregon chains and the steel they are made of please post them here. The claim you made is substantial, and I'd like to see some figures. This is helpful, too as I am trying to design a new cutter shape. Thanks.

Hey Full Chisel if you're capable of starting a new revolution in sawchain cutter design then you don't need Rockwell #'s from me :D
Unless you're already an engineer from the 2 big sawchain companies......good luck ;)
The current hooded cutter design [invented by Oregon in 1946] has still today been virtually unchanged in rough structure. A few "new" designs like Kolve from the 1970-80s challenged but went the wayside without a whimper.

Tell us what resources you have on hand to get this "new cutter design" built. Also fill us in on what you know about the history of sawchain design from the last 90 years. We don't want you to invent a cutter design that has already been invented.

Now back to those Rockwell #'s. Lets make it simple for everyone. Take a Stihl 33RS cutter and a Oregon 72 LGX cutter and hold them tightly side by side and look at them from the back side of the cutter. Now notice how much thicker the material of the Stihl cutter is. Also notice the .063 drive link thickness between the cutter and side strap on the Stihl and notice the thinner .058 on the Oregon.

HolmenTree · July 24, 2012, 12:01:50 AM

Quote from: Full Chisel on July 23, 2012, 06:02:24 PM
LJ-48, I buy rolls of Stihl RSC 36 and 26 with 28 master link sets included for $340 tax included. The equivalent Carlton or Windsor with shipping is equal in cost today (do they come with finishers?). If you can get me some Carlton full compliment in .063 gauge .375 or .325 for half the cost of Stihl chain, PM me and I'll buy it from you. Or give me a quote and we can discuss that. Thanks.

You gotta be getting that Stihl sawchain at cost from a dealer. Here in Canada retail price is up to $600 for a 100ft roll.
The best price I found for Oregon 72LGX in 100 ft roll was Bailey's at $300 give or take.

lumberjack48 · July 24, 2012, 10:31:23 AM

Quote from: Clam77 on July 23, 2012, 10:32:41 PM
I use 3/16" on my 3/8" chain - works dang good for me and prefer not to waste the time trying to find all the different sizes like 7/32 and 13/64 which are hard to find around here as it is.

5/32" for smaller chain of course.

Your all ready using a 3/16 [6/32] try the 5/32 it works a little better. The 3/16 is all so for smaller chain.

Full Chisel · July 24, 2012, 10:56:10 AM

Quote from: HolmenTree on July 23, 2012, 11:56:23 PM
Quote from: Full Chisel on July 23, 2012, 06:02:24 PM
If you come across some current accurate Rockwell #'s on Stihl and Oregon chains and the steel they are made of please post them here. The claim you made is substantial, and I'd like to see some figures. This is helpful, too as I am trying to design a new cutter shape. Thanks.
Hey Full Chisel if you're capable of starting a new revolution in sawchain cutter design then you don't need Rockwell #'s from me :D
Unless you're already an engineer from the 2 big sawchain companies......good luck ;)
The current hooded cutter design [invented by Oregon in 1946] has still today been virtually unchanged in rough structure. A few "new" designs like Kolve from the 1970-80s challenged but went the wayside without a whimper.

Tell us what resources you have on hand to get this "new cutter design" built. Also fill us in on what you know about the history of sawchain design from the last 90 years. We don't want you to invent a cutter design that has already been invented.

Now back to those Rockwell #'s. Lets make it simple for everyone. Take a Stihl 33RS cutter and a Oregon 72 LGX cutter and hold them tightly side by side and look at them from the back side of the cutter. Now notice how much thicker the material of the Stihl cutter is. Also notice the .063 drive link thickness between the cutter and side strap on the Stihl and notice the thinner .058 on the Oregon.

Revolution is about perpetual motion. A tool company called Woodings-Verona used to stamp, "Continuous Quality Improvement," on all their tools. This was once the impetus of America.

33RS Stihl has a .050 gauge drive link.

Technology and creative application of resource will consume history. In 1960 Lead Arsenate was a top choice to control weeds in the home garden. You could run any of those old chain profiles through a simulation program today. That is what I need most.

JohnG28 · July 24, 2012, 11:16:03 AM

He's saying that the drive link is thicker at the top, near the cutter. The portion that rides in the guide bar is still .050, but .063 above the guide rail where the tie straps and cutter tooth are.

Full Chisel · July 24, 2012, 11:29:19 AM

Quote from: JohnG28 on July 24, 2012, 11:16:03 AM
He's saying that the drive link is thicker at the top, near the cutter. The portion that rides in the guide bar is still .050, but .063 above the guide rail where the tie straps and cutter tooth are.

OK.

Full Chisel · July 24, 2012, 07:53:21 PM

In that case, Hey HolmenTree or any one who's interested: The Rockwell hardness of cutter tool steel is 55-65 as this covers saw chain the leading types are probably similar. If someone has some equivalent Oregon and Stihl chain (new and clean) of equal length, weigh them both and let us know. I'm going to contact the respective companies' technical departments and ask some questions. It always worked before. Solid numbers on hardness of various files and chains will save on speculation.

Full Chisel · August 10, 2012, 09:38:56 PM

Got a box coming of new Oregon Low Profile .375 chain to test on the top handles. All new cutters. These guys are relentless.

John Mc · August 11, 2012, 11:40:27 AM

Quote from: Full Chisel on July 24, 2012, 07:53:21 PM
... The Rockwell hardness of cutter tool steel is 55-65 as this covers saw chain the leading types are probably similar.

I'm assuming you are talking about the Rockwell C scale. 55-65 is quite a wide range. We heat treat flat steel wire to a 3 or 4 point range on the C scale (and generally don't use anywhere near the full range in actual practice). I can't recall off the top of my head what the minimum thickness is that you can test on the C scale, but I'm thinking parts of a cutter tooth may be getting too thin (you end up being influenced by the hardness of the anvil it's sitting on). You might need to drop down to the 30N scale.

If I were still working at one of our manufacturing plants, I'd bring in a piece of chain and test it for you, but I'm a good 13+ hour drive from there these days. If here is anyone who heat treats steel in your area, they should have equipment to test hardness. You do need a flat piece of steel -- or at least enough of a flat spot to sit on a small post about 1/4" in diameter, and room for the penetrater to come down on the other side from above. This may be tough to accomplish with the shape of a chainsaw tooth.

tcsmpsi · August 13, 2012, 01:51:57 PM

I notice quite a few super conditions for modifications, aligning the quantum equilibrium, cleaning the spitzerhausen, etc. for saws and mills, this, that and another.

Similar to what Al mentions...Ok, sounds cool, but how much real work is that going to cut me out of?

A file will fit in my back pocket, and I've not yet run into a chain they wouldn't sharpen. Quickly. In the short of it, I just plain don't have the time to implement all the super conductors. I also know me well enough, that while I would be trying to elaborate the process, I would be anxious as a cat on a hot tin roof, seeing my time not actually being covered by chips or dust and movement. For me, that would be unhealthy.

Certainly, if a fellow has the time to elaborate the ability of a saw to cut like a....saw, and that is what they choose to pursue, that is swell. I'm sure there are plenty of things I'm apt to do that would create a question or two. ;D

HolmenTree · August 13, 2012, 11:32:24 PM

Quote from: Full Chisel on August 10, 2012, 09:38:56 PM
Got a box coming of new Oregon Low Profile .375 chain to test on the top handles. All new cutters. These guys are relentless.

I hope this chain is something I don't know about, and just came out to be field tested.
Is this chain chisel ?

If not then it's just their latest semi-chisel 91VXL which has been on the market for several years now.
Stihl has a .375 LoPro chisel chain on the market for top handle saws now.

Full Chisel · August 16, 2012, 02:11:21 PM

Quote from: John Mc on August 11, 2012, 11:40:27 AM
Quote from: Full Chisel on July 24, 2012, 07:53:21 PM
... The Rockwell hardness of cutter tool steel is 55-65 as this covers saw chain the leading types are probably similar.

I'm assuming you are talking about the Rockwell C scale. 55-65 is quite a wide range. We heat treat flat steel wire to a 3 or 4 point range on the C scale (and generally don't use anywhere near the full range in actual practice). I can't recall off the top of my head what the minimum thickness is that you can test on the C scale, but I'm thinking parts of a cutter tooth may be getting too thin (you end up being influenced by the hardness of the anvil it's sitting on). You might need to drop down to the 30N scale.

If I were still working at one of our manufacturing plants, I'd bring in a piece of chain and test it for you, but I'm a good 13+ hour drive from there these days. If here is anyone who heat treats steel in your area, they should have equipment to test hardness. You do need a flat piece of steel -- or at least enough of a flat spot to sit on a small post about 1/4" in diameter, and room for the penetrater to come down on the other side from above. This may be tough to accomplish with the shape of a chainsaw tooth.

Thanks. Learning.

Full Chisel · August 16, 2012, 02:16:22 PM

Quote from: tcsmpsi on August 13, 2012, 01:51:57 PM
I notice quite a few super conditions for modifications, aligning the quantum equilibrium, cleaning the spitzerhausen, etc. for saws and mills, this, that and another.

Similar to what Al mentions...Ok, sounds cool, but how much real work is that going to cut me out of?

A file will fit in my back pocket, and I've not yet run into a chain they wouldn't sharpen. Quickly. In the short of it, I just plain don't have the time to implement all the super conductors. I also know me well enough, that while I would be trying to elaborate the process, I would be anxious as a cat on a hot tin roof, seeing my time not actually being covered by chips or dust and movement. For me, that would be unhealthy.

Certainly, if a fellow has the time to elaborate the ability of a saw to cut like a....saw, and that is what they choose to pursue, that is swell. I'm sure there are plenty of things I'm apt to do that would create a question or two. ;D

I want those spitzerhausens gleaming. Buff out the modic dextrator on your way back. There's no time to cut you out of work. And change the blinker fluid!

Don't forget and leave the file in you back pocket when you sit on the furniture, though.

We are getting closer on the water laser jig.

HolmenTree · August 16, 2012, 09:03:13 PM

Quote from: Full Chisel on August 10, 2012, 09:38:56 PM
Got a box coming of new Oregon Low Profile .375 chain to test on the top handles. All new cutters. These guys are relentless.

Ok enough of the nonsense :D
Let's talk about this Oregon sawchain you're testing. ???

Full Chisel · August 23, 2012, 11:26:12 AM

Quote from: HolmenTree on August 16, 2012, 09:03:13 PM
Quote from: Full Chisel on August 10, 2012, 09:38:56 PM
Got a box coming of new Oregon Low Profile .375 chain to test on the top handles. All new cutters. These guys are relentless.
Ok enough of the nonsense :D
Let's talk about this Oregon sawchain you're testing. ???

Turns out it is Stihl chain. My supplier carries both. That's OK, we're unwilling to switch brands.

We are setting up to sharpen some chain on a water jet. Gonna try across the cutter from the working corner side first due to flare.

Full Chisel · September 02, 2012, 02:41:00 PM

Water jetting isn't workin' out at all for chain honing, but it was fun. I was able to cut out some onrey looking stainless spikes for the 044 based off a home made plan, though. These are sweet and sharp. Quite stiff, too. We also made some roller catchers from some old pushrods and nylon bushings. Think outside the box, folks. That is what America is.