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Brey-B-Technik winch conversion kit

Started by by677, April 14, 2016, 09:48:48 PM

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Hilltop366

I too have wished for a remote for my winch but cannot justify the cost, If I was to make one I figure I would need to run the clutch only, I figure I will be walking right past the drum lock to get on the tractor and can release the drum lock with a rope while on the tractor.

One thing I see on the remote winch kit for my norse 390 is a remote throttle control that increases the engine speed when engaging the winch I think that this feature would be handy as I often start winching and realize I need to increase the engine speed which would be a total pain if I was 100 feet away using the remote.

To me the ideal setup would be a single acting cylinder and return spring, if a mechanical advantage was used the cylinder would not have to be very long.

For the valve my idea (and I don't know if anyone makes one) is to have a valve that when energized would supply power to two components of the valve one part being supplying pressure to the cylinder until the cylinder is fully extended and then hyd pressure is turned off by a cutoff switch or until the remote button is released. The other part is a normally open release valve that when energized with the same remote button as the clutch will hold the clutch cylinder from returning until the remote button is released.

I'm not sure if that is clear but in the end the way it would work is: when the button is pressed one valve is changed from open to pressure to the cylinder but before the hyd oil gets to the cylinder it goes past a one way valve to prevent the oil from returning when the cylinder reaches full clutch engagement and the power is cut off from the first valve (the first valve then returns to open) then when the remote button is released the one way valve is opened to let the oil in the cylinder return.

A question I do have (besides does any one make a valve like this) is that all the tractor remotes I have seen requires a continuous oil flow but this hyd system idea only requires a single hyd line to the cylinder. Would this single acting cylinder be able to retract by spring pressure and return the hyd fluid to the tractor's hyd system?


by677

Hi Hilltop366, nice comments, glad to see other people out there wishing for the same thing.  You have raised interesting points here and unfortunately I have limited knowledge when it comes to valve and solenoids.  What you say seem to make sense though.  I think North River Energy's comment would certainly add value to the subject.

As far as the single action cylinder, if we could somehow circumvent the heat issue while pulling that might possibly work. As you pointed out, we also have to consider that once in released mode, the cylinder return spring will have to be strong enough to return the oil into the hyd system.   I did noticed Princess Auto sell 1" bore, 4 " stroke hyd cylinder that would possibly work.  I am just not sure about the rest of the system that need to be put together and ordering wrong parts would be costly at the end.
 
The throttle remote control system should not be such a big thing to do as a stand alone set up since it would not involved any hyd set up.  If you were to integrate it with the other operation of the winch control that might be a bit more complicated I would think feasible. 
Right now, I would be just happy to be able to walk by a log as it's being pulled and avoid the constant back and forth walk.
If someone would dare hinting some components supplier and who knows part numbers to narrow down the scope of the research that would be great. 
I came close to by a Norse 390 remote kit once that a dealer had an extra of and I was not convinced it would work for me.



Hilltop366

Quote from: by677 on May 04, 2016, 03:40:34 PM

As far as the single action cylinder, if we could somehow circumvent the heat issue while pulling that might possibly work.
 

I came close to by a Norse 390 remote kit once that a dealer had an extra of and I was not convinced it would work for me.

With the cut off switch at the end of the cylinder stroke there would no longer any fluid flow, the switch would cut power (or ground) to the first valve returning it to the open position. Done right the system should never trigger the pressure relief valve.

Do you remember what the dealer was asking for the Norse 390 remote?


by677

I think the dealer was asking about a grand 5 years or so ago.

Would that cut off switch you have in mind something to be added to a subplate mount of some kind? 


Hilltop366

Thanks for the price info.

I was thinking of a normally closed momentary micro switch, it would have to be mounted so that a part of the clutch leaver or cylinder would contact it to cut power.

If one was to forgo the second valve and cut off switch I wonder how much hyd heating would occur at a low set pressure relief.

Thinking out loud here.
If the cylinder was connected ½ way down the clutch leaver the 100 pound pull at the top would double the required force to 200 pounds, the cylinder has .785 sq inches would require 255 psi hyd pressure to engage the clutch. A 1.5 inch cylinder would only require 115 psi.
(these may be a bit low as I did not take into account the unknown return spring pressure)


Of coarse my calulations could be all wrong so anyone is welcome to check and correct.

The hyd question here would a pressure relief valve set at a few hundred pounds really cause much heating in the time it takes to winch in a few logs?

North River Energy

As regards using the relief as a bypass, you're getting into the notion of duty cycle, or, how much heat goes into the system given the duration of an average 'winch in'.
Might be mistaken, but directional valves are usually available either 'free spool' in neutral, or 'locked' in neutral. If you use the latter, then your cylinder should hold position until released.

There's minimal added cost in using a double acting cylinder over single acting, and single acting electric control valves might be harder to source.
If you use a heavy pull spring between the cylinder rod and clutch lever, you can effectively 'full-stroke' the cylinder, meanwhile 'stretching' the spring to provide the required pull on the clutch. Maybe add some sort of turnbuckle for fine tuning of spring tension.
That would simplify pressure regulation on that circuit, and if it meant holding the control for a three count, you'd probably fully engage the clutch, and only unseat the circuit relief for a half second or so.

You're only talking 10gpm, with plenty of time in between pulls, so it's not super critical. Even so, the simpler system relief valves are, I think, intended to be used as a momentary, not constant part of the flow path.


Micro switches could work fine for setting stroke limits, but it's one more layer of complexity that might not be warranted.

Here's a link to an air over hydraulic pendant control I rigged for one of my splitters. It's a simpler application than your winch, but it might help with the spatial reasoning.
http://beckmannag.com/firewood-production/big-splitter/big-splitter-remote-control

by677

Very interesting NRE, great to see it in action and operating like you intended it to.  Video always talks for itself.  Your sure got around the back breaking issue with those big logs.  Just curious, do you first split your logs into manageable pieces before moving them on to the second wood splitter located next to the conveyer ramp to be spilt into smaller pieces again?

To get back to the topic, what is the air cylinder we see underneath the logger hyd control valve actually doing/controlling and to what is it attached to? 

About the relief valve bleeding off and possibly causing heat, I found this earlier today while squiring, doing my DD on the subject.  Three type of relief valves were discussed. This one description below seems to have some merit with regards to avoid heat problem although this has not yet been confirmed in a real application like discussed here.

c. Bleed-Off Circuit. A typical bleed-off circuit is not installed directly in a feed line. It is Td into this line with its outlet connected to a return line. A valve regulates flow to a cylinder by diverting an adjustable portion of a pump's flow to a tank. Since fluid delivered to a work cylinder does not have to pass through a flow-control valve, excess fluid does not have to be dumped through a relief valve. This type of circuit usually involves less heat generation because pressure on a pump equals the work resistance during a feed operation.

Hilltop366, when you wrote the following, were you concern that the pull required to engage the clutch pull lever would kind of be too light for the capability of the cylinder hence attaching to at lower position.  Are we overkilling it with that size of hyd cylinders?
Judging by the size of the Brey-B-Tecnik conversion kit box, the hyd cylinders they used may in fact be small in size.

If the cylinder was connected ½ way down the clutch leaver the 100 pound pull at the top would double the required force to 200 pounds, the cylinder has .785 sq inches would require 255 psi hyd pressure to engage the clutch. A 1.5 inch cylinder would only require 115 psi.
(these may be a bit low as I did not take into account the unknown return spring pressure)


North River Energy

^Straight wood 13" and under goes through the processor, anything else goes through the other two splitters. Depending on inventory, larger splits will go directly to the 'overnighter' pile (video #2), or will be resplit on the smaller splitter as in the third video.
Definitely cheating. :D

The air cylinder under the valve actuates that valve. It's a front/trunnion mount, with the rod end connected to an extension of the hand lever on the valve. Sometimes I need to control the splitter manually, rather than on the remote, so for this extended 'proof of concept' the original valve controls remaines intact.

The bleed off valve sounds a bit like a variable flow control, whereby pump output can be split in two, with one part incrementally adjustable, and the other as the remainder. I use one of those to control the circular saw drive on my processor.

Hilltop366

Quote from: North River Energy on May 04, 2016, 08:23:37 PM

Might be mistaken, but directional valves are usually available either 'free spool' in neutral, or 'locked' in neutral. If you use the latter, then your cylinder should hold position until released.


Explaining my train of thought.

My way of thinking is for safety reasons a ideal remote system would engage the clutch when the button is pressed and automatically release the clutch when the remote button is released. So a open valve would be the only way to go, I don't think having to press another button to stop the winch is a good idea.

I think a second momentary switch on the remote that would turn on the remote power to reduce the chance of accidental turning on of the winch would be a good idea as well.

North river that works good, I'm wondering if you have used it in the winter and if so do you have had any problems with condensation freezing up your air system? The winter air around here is very humid, truck drivers can have problems with trailer brakes freezing up although it does not seem as bad with newer equipment and good air driers.

by677, the reason I figured the cylinder could be mounted part way down the leaver is that there is lots of power available so by mounting it lower a shorter cylinder could be used and it would reduce the time engage the clutch.

This is all very interesting to me, I think that if I had lots of extra time and a small machine shop I could make a compact self-contained Hyd control unit from a block of aluminum, a check valve (ball and spring) a pressure relief and a few snow plow valve cartridges.



North River Energy

^Good point on the winch shutoff default.
So:
-Single action cylinder, spring return.
-Primary control valve, 'hold' in neutral.
-Secondary solenoid valve tee-d into pressure line on cylinder. This valve normally 'open'. Something like this:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/Hydraulic-Valves/Solenoid-Valves/HYDRA-FORCE-12-VDC-N-O-SOLENOID-VALVE-9-5112-NO.axd
-Trigger and button momentary control. Trigger closes solenoid, to allow pressure to build in cylinder when button is pushed(shifting main valve spool). When button is released, cylinder movement stops,primary and is held by solenoid valve.
When operator releases trigger, solenoid valve dumps fluid held in rod end, allows cylinder to be extended by spring tension, releasing clutch.
Or maybe you already said that...

I've not had occasion to run the air system in cold weather, so I can't comment on freeze-up. On the other hand, the air volume is small, and the compressors run for only a few seconds at a time, so heat and moisture might not come into play.

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