European machine.

[tule peak timber]

Looking good. Welcome to the FF. Where are you located ?

[Satamax]

Nice trailer! 

[barbender]

Skeans I think an American style swinging grapple would be pretty limited compared to the forwarder style Euro set up.

[nativewolf]

What I'm I missing here ?. .
.....

Bruno; you're not missing a Dang thing.
Everyone loves the Euro machine.
It's unanimous.
Another question might be: why isn't a machine like this being built; or sold, over here in N. America?

If I had to guess I would say 100% emissions issues! Gotta love the EPA.

I don't think an epa issue at all, EU emissions are now just as strict.  Now liability, parts and service network, etc.  Yes those are issues.  I would be very surprised if whatever engine is in that german skidder is tier 5 compliant and already tested for the US.
Kiko has the correct guess I'd think.  Stupid operators that seem to live to wreck things and hurt themselves are a pain in the rear end to support.  You'd have to roll out a support network in a country that until recently had a very dense and competitive forest equipment base already.  

We've seen 4 makers go under/bought in the last 15 years and now cat is out.  That leaves JD and TC.  Not much choice and maybe today someone could make headway if they had $20mln to buildout a support network and last through initial sales.  That's tough though, just look at the CTL business where Rottne has not been able to penetrate the US nor other EU entities.  Really Ponsse is the only successful entity from the EU in NA forest sales.  

[longtime lurker]

I had a good look through the european offerings a while back. I was pretty impressed with the Welte.

Everyone wants to blame all the EPA restrictions but.... thats really got little to do with it. You take an existing engine that has tier whatever approval and put it in a machine - it's not that hard.

The real issues lie around productivity. Small machines can't pull enough a day to pay so nobody is buying them new so nobody is building them. Everything is geared to plantations because mechanical harvester with a processor head and a forwarder is the cheapest way to get tons on a landing there, And the big machines just keep on getting bigger and bigger.

I had a 648 dual arch on hire just recently while my own skidder was down. Man that thing could pull some wood. But without the wood bunched and because of its width in a pretty tight selective cut.... it wasn't actually shifting any more wood a day or so cheap as my little old 666 could on a short <500m skid. It needed a harvester in front of it to bunch.... little old 666 can duck and weave through the trees quick. And today a 648 is a "little" skidder.

I did like that Welte. I just can't see how I can pull enough tons a year to make it profitable. And the smaller euro stuff isn't really built for Australian Hardwood.... its small aimed at softwood bunches.... not small aimed at big singles that weigh 1½ ton to the cube wet. 

[nativewolf]

Yep LL, you bring up another good point.  That 666 is an old Clark?  It's the same HP as the larger Welte?  I'd imagine it would be a good replacement, maybe more production due to less breakdowns.  BUT...that $$$$$$$$

Eventually all the old Clarks, Franklins, Cats, JDs, Timberjacks, etc will cease to function or be bought up and demolished.  Then where will we hardwood guys be?  I'd love to have a cable skidder to work in conjunction with the forwarder.  However, I don't like old equipment and as you say the new machine payments..whew...

What's a poor hardwood sawtimber guy to do.

[snowstorm]

What I'm I missing here ?. .
.....

Bruno; you're not missing a Dang thing.
Everyone loves the Euro machine.
It's unanimous.
Another question might be: why isn't a machine like this being built; or sold, over here in N. America?

If I had to guess I would say 100% emissions issues! Gotta love the EPA.

I don't think an epa issue at all, EU emissions are now just as strict.  Now liability, parts and service network, etc.  Yes those are issues.  I would be very surprised if whatever engine is in that german skidder is tier 5 compliant and already tested for the US.
Kiko has the correct guess I'd think.  Stupid operators that seem to live to wreck things and hurt themselves are a pain in the rear end to support.  You'd have to roll out a support network in a country that until recently had a very dense and competitive forest equipment base already.  

We've seen 4 makers go under/bought in the last 15 years and now cat is out.  That leaves JD and TC.  Not much choice and maybe today someone could make headway if they had $20mln to buildout a support network and last through initial sales.  That's tough though, just look at the CTL business where Rottne has not been able to penetrate the US nor other EU entities.  Really Ponsse is the only successful entity from the EU in NA forest sales.  

where do you come up with this??rottne dosent have any machines here? oh yes they do. a few yrs back they did close the factory store in pa. lucky for me and others there tech \ sales guy is now with the dealer in maine. and he will always talk you threw the problem on the phone. quadco in longview is the same. try that with some dealers and all you hear is bring in here. rottne in nb is the same anything to help over the phone. now the cat dealer is selling logset. i know they did sell 1 new forwarder. within 50 miles there are dealers for rottne komatsu deere ponsse tiger cat logset and barco

[Skeans1]

Skeans I think an American style swinging grapple would be pretty limited compared to the forwarder style Euro set up.

I wouldn't say that they can do all the same things but it's also a lot stouter a good operator can pile with one just like the euro setups.

[nativewolf]

What I'm I missing here ?. .
.....

Bruno; you're not missing a Dang thing.
Everyone loves the Euro machine.
It's unanimous.
Another question might be: why isn't a machine like this being built; or sold, over here in N. America?

If I had to guess I would say 100% emissions issues! Gotta love the EPA.

I don't think an epa issue at all, EU emissions are now just as strict.  Now liability, parts and service network, etc.  Yes those are issues.  I would be very surprised if whatever engine is in that german skidder is tier 5 compliant and already tested for the US.
Kiko has the correct guess I'd think.  Stupid operators that seem to live to wreck things and hurt themselves are a pain in the rear end to support.  You'd have to roll out a support network in a country that until recently had a very dense and competitive forest equipment base already.  

We've seen 4 makers go under/bought in the last 15 years and now cat is out.  That leaves JD and TC.  Not much choice and maybe today someone could make headway if they had $20mln to buildout a support network and last through initial sales.  That's tough though, just look at the CTL business where Rottne has not been able to penetrate the US nor other EU entities.  Really Ponsse is the only successful entity from the EU in NA forest sales.  

where do you come up with this??rottne dosent have any machines here? oh yes they do. a few yrs back they did close the factory store in pa. lucky for me and others there tech \ sales guy is now with the dealer in maine. and he will always talk you threw the problem on the phone. quadco in longview is the same. try that with some dealers and all you hear is bring in here. rottne in nb is the same anything to help over the phone. now the cat dealer is selling logset. i know they did sell 1 new forwarder. within 50 miles there are dealers for rottne komatsu deere ponsse tiger cat logset and barco

Sure, Rottne has a few machines in the US, less than 200 I'd guess - after 20 years.  That's the problem from my seat.  I could see them pretty much abandon the US.  They are selling maybe 40 forwarders a year in Sweeden, probably double that in Russia last year.  Russia bought just about every piece of CTL equipment that could get produced the last 3 years (due to Trump tarrifs China turned to Russia for wood).  It is a nice little equipment company.  But they invented CTL and still are having a hard time getting market share in the US.  And Rottne makes a great machine by all accounts.  They just can't get scale going.  There is a new 2019 harvester in Michigan with no takers all of last year.  Ponsse has a 3 month waiting list for a bear.  At some point markets end up with a handful of players and in CTL in the US it is Komatsu, Ponsse, and JD.  Logset, Rottne, tigercat, and others have products but they are fighting for 4th or lower everywhere (in Rottne's home country they have 4th nailed down and are fighting for 3rd).  

Tigercat is the last player to break into the skidder market.  Launched in mid late 90s.  I was overseas then so I returned to a new player in town.  It was heavily backed and they picked some smart partners in the US for dealers.  They thrived as Franklin, Clark, pettibone, et al failed.  Either in the 80s contraction or in the 2000s failures.  

Barko is a good example of a company that could get into skidders.  Good reputation in loaders and they make feller bunchers (no idea how good they are).  Some network already there.  Owned by Heico, Barko is in the Pettibone group; one of several groups.  Only problem is Heico is huge in aviation and that industry has just been whacked.  Whacked.  Not sure there is any $ to invest in Pettibone/Barko.  They tried making a forwarder.  Haven't seen many for sale and the one I've seen was small - like good for thinning but could not handle our hardwoods.  Not sure why they would have picked that products size for a new line.  

I'd stand by my statement that skidders are a 2 person show in the US.  JD and Tigercat.  They are both offering big... really big and very expensive.  Machine size in 1997 went from a tc 630 of 32k pounds and $175k to a modern tc of 25 tons and $400k+.  Not something we don't all know but it leaves those looking for a modern (ish) small/mid sized skidder out in the cold.

If someone could offer a 10 year note to a logger for a new EU style skidder with reasonable payments I think they would do well.  To do that you'd have to have really deep pockets, some ability to build & sustain a dealer network or develop your own footprint.  Barko  is one I thought could do it but that parent company makes me think the whole pettibone group would be sold off rather than invest in a new line.  Especially after what I see to be a weak CTL product that was not in sync with the other Barko offerings that were whole tree.  Barko is screaming for a skidder.  Heico could certainly buy Welte or others.  Who knows.  Anyway I think for someone to break into skidders in the US with a small machine means a real commitment.  I don't see any interest from TC or JD in going small. 

[Southside]

In the end it all boils down to what manufacturer will finance their machines, and I don't anyone offering a 10 year note on a piece of forestry, construction, or Ag equipment, they would have to offer the warranty for just as long.  

[Satamax]

I had a good look through the european offerings a while back. I was pretty impressed with the Welte.

Everyone wants to blame all the EPA restrictions but.... thats really got little to do with it. You take an existing engine that has tier whatever approval and put it in a machine - it's not that hard.

The real issues lie around productivity. Small machines can't pull enough a day to pay so nobody is buying them new so nobody is building them. Everything is geared to plantations because mechanical harvester with a processor head and a forwarder is the cheapest way to get tons on a landing there, And the big machines just keep on getting bigger and bigger.

I had a 648 dual arch on hire just recently while my own skidder was down. Man that thing could pull some wood. But without the wood bunched and because of its width in a pretty tight selective cut.... it wasn't actually shifting any more wood a day or so cheap as my little old 666 could on a short <500m skid. It needed a harvester in front of it to bunch.... little old 666 can duck and weave through the trees quick. And today a 648 is a "little" skidder.

I did like that Welte. I just can't see how I can pull enough tons a year to make it profitable. And the smaller euro stuff isn't really built for Australian Hardwood.... its small aimed at softwood bunches.... not small aimed at big singles that weigh 1½ ton to the cube wet.

Longtime Lurker. I think  you don't see the European machines as i do.  Most of our forest are not managed for clear cuts. Would it be softwood or hardwood. Except in some parts of scandinavia, few places in UK, few places in Germany, and the big problem of Romania. You rarely see a clear cut. Most of our logging is selective cutting. So big machines don't fit. But any of the makers can make monsters, if needed. There is another detail, Europe, at least the western part, is heavily populated, so you're never far from a road.  So the skidders don't pull for miles. They bring the logs to the edge of the road, bunch by truckload; and the truck comes, and loads itself. I rarely see a log truck without a crane. And i live in the alps. Where the roads aren't flat. The guys are not afraid, 6x6 semi tractors, and live dolly trailers. That's the way they work over here. That otmar noe machine that i showed, if a big one for here. One thing is true, the wood we have is not as heavy as yours, but big oaks, can easily do 900 1000 kg per cube, wet. Mind you, if the guys are pulling nice oak of big dimensions, they are extremely careful with it.  As it's either cabinetmaking wood, or cask wood, for staves. And that we're not joking about  ;D 
Here is the biggest french machine, made for western Africa. I heard that there is some still running over there. Built in the seventies! :D 
http://www.avant-train-latil.com/T10.php

[longtime lurker]

Yep LL, you bring up another good point.  That 666 is an old Clark?  It's the same HP as the larger Welte?  I'd imagine it would be a good replacement, maybe more production due to less breakdowns.  BUT...that $$$$$$$$

Eventually all the old Clarks, Franklins, Cats, JDs, Timberjacks, etc will cease to function or be bought up and demolished.  Then where will we hardwood guys be?  I'd love to have a cable skidder to work in conjunction with the forwarder.  However, I don't like old equipment and as you say the new machine payments..whew...

What's a poor hardwood sawtimber guy to do.

There's old, and there's "old."

I like Clark's because they have that boat frame design which is built like the proverbial brick outhouse... strongest frame in the business.Mine is old, but not "old".

Engine/converter radiator 2500 HRS off full out of chassis reco, hitch got done when we bought it 3500 HRS ago, pumps/hoses/rams (rams changed to Cat type seals) about 200 HRS back, winch overhaul probably 1000 HRS back. She's home with a broken rear axle and it will be totally rebuilt before going back to work.
There's a leak on the tranny guess what happens there this wet season?

I've owned this machine 6 years... it's newer than when I got it. The broken axle was me doing something dumb, but I'd throw the old doll into a full year contract without a second thought.

I just buy equipment with good bones and good parts availability and proceed to fix them one component at a time... And when something needs fixing we do it properly. Run them for the year let them make some $, then spend $ where it needs spending. My D8K has 33000 hours on the frame from new... I got it in 97 with 13095 hrs... I'd put money down on her being in better shape than a lot of machines half her age, but 40k is about the frame design limit... metal fatigue gets them. Skidders are the same... It's not age that kills them it's lack of scheduled maintenance.

I'm after a 667 grapple now... I'm.sick of rolling around on the ground with chokes and the 666 while a great machine isn't quite big enough to carry a grapple with my logs.

[DPrest]

Enjoying this thread... I saw the new Tigercat 602 in Bangor last spring. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2uJoN0qarM. I remember the rep quoting $230,000 USD to me at the time set up as seen in the video (single drum winch). We don't have any nice hardwood log stands, so I don't really understand the economics of working in quality hardwood. Its hard to see how a payment like this could work in firewood stands... Would any of you hardwood guys who do selective logging in quality log stands be able to comment on the viability of a smaller skidder at this price point? The size seems appropriate, and the winch remote is a real advantage.

[longtime lurker]

The economics are really variable I think, and depend a lot on markets, species etc.  Thing to remember is you don't have to pay it all off at once, finance smart and you'll be able to spread payments over a decade easily by refining the residual a couple of times. I did the math a while ago and 3 years 70% residual, 3 years and a 50% residual, 5 years and a 30% residual etc etc... Payments were actually lower than with a 10 year old machine you couldn't get the same residual amounts on due to age.

A lot depends on your access to veneer logs and having markets for everything. On the numbers here there's not one contractor in the state could pay off a new machine cutting for the major sawmills in their stands of timber... they don't pay much more than survival money. Contrast that with my preferred contractor who controls where his logs go... He gets the veneer premium not the mill, I take sawlog, he offloads salvage somewhere else... guys got a decent skidder and a 45 ton harvester under finance and if some Chinaman hadn't eaten a bat he'd be doing ok.

Gotta keep them working and pricing in the maintenance is important... lot of guys go under with equipment from failing to put money aside for every hour worked from day 1

[nativewolf]

In the end it all boils down to what manufacturer will finance their machines, and I don't anyone offering a 10 year note on a piece of forestry, construction, or Ag equipment, they would have to offer the warranty for just as long.  

Yep-agree with all of that. LL has a good point below on the financing.  Interesting that the mills there are also keeping loggers broke.  I've had several meetings with mill owners in VA, interviewed a couple.  Was offered owner financing to take over a mid sized super super clean mill- (@southside - give me a call, it might interest you).  My conclusion is loggers are kept on survival $.   I don't see how they make a profit based on what the mills paying.  We keep control of the wood (per LLs comments) and are looking for more control, we'll see.  

[nativewolf]

Yep LL, you bring up another good point.  That 666 is an old Clark?  It's the same HP as the larger Welte?  I'd imagine it would be a good replacement, maybe more production due to less breakdowns.  BUT...that $$$$$$$$

Eventually all the old Clarks, Franklins, Cats, JDs, Timberjacks, etc will cease to function or be bought up and demolished.  Then where will we hardwood guys be?  I'd love to have a cable skidder to work in conjunction with the forwarder.  However, I don't like old equipment and as you say the new machine payments..whew...

What's a poor hardwood sawtimber guy to do.

There's old, and there's "old."

I like Clark's because they have that boat frame design which is built like the proverbial brick outhouse... strongest frame in the business.Mine is old, but not "old".

Engine/converter radiator 2500 HRS off full out of chassis reco, hitch got done when we bought it 3500 HRS ago, pumps/hoses/rams (rams changed to Cat type seals) about 200 HRS back, winch overhaul probably 1000 HRS back. She's home with a broken rear axle and it will be totally rebuilt before going back to work.
There's a leak on the tranny guess what happens there this wet season?

I've owned this machine 6 years... it's newer than when I got it. The broken axle was me doing something dumb, but I'd throw the old doll into a full year contract without a second thought.

I just buy equipment with good bones and good parts availability and proceed to fix them one component at a time... And when something needs fixing we do it properly. Run them for the year let them make some $, then spend $ where it needs spending. My D8K has 33000 hours on the frame from new... I got it in 97 with 13095 hrs... I'd put money down on her being in better shape than a lot of machines half her age, but 40k is about the frame design limit... metal fatigue gets them. Skidders are the same... It's not age that kills them it's lack of scheduled maintenance.

I'm after a 667 grapple now... I'm.sick of rolling around on the ground with chokes and the 666 while a great machine isn't quite big enough to carry a grapple with my logs.

No insult intended.  Just observing the decline in options for hardwood loggers.  As you say eventually these machines are going to end up in scrap piles.  

[Satamax]

In the end it all boils down to what manufacturer will finance their machines, and I don't anyone offering a 10 year note on a piece of forestry, construction, or Ag equipment, they would have to offer the warranty for just as long.  

Yep-agree with all of that. LL has a good point below on the financing.  Interesting that the mills there are also keeping loggers broke.  I've had several meetings with mill owners in VA, interviewed a couple.  Was offered owner financing to take over a mid sized super super clean mill- (@southside - give me a call, it might interest you).  My conclusion is loggers are kept on survival $.   I don't see how they make a profit based on what the mills paying.  We keep control of the wood (per LLs comments) and are looking for more control, we'll see.  

You made me think. 
There isn't "loggers" strictly speaking, at least over here. The guys who have that machine, also have a huge sawmill. So it might pay better than being just logger. 
Davin, who retired, used to work that way too. 
But, what i call a sawmill, is small, compared to Maine's big rigs. 1 head saw, 1 or 2 resaws, 1 or 2 edgers. The nearest commercial sawyer to me, has the same saw as mine. and a vertical resaw. The fathher helps, and is doing the firewood. Gui is sawing in spring, till autumn, and grooms the slopes in the winter. And usually, they employ a guy from the lifts or ski patrol, during the sawing season. The biggest now,are the guys with the machine here. It's a fifteen man band, may be. 7 at the mill, 7, may be 10 logging. 

[teakwood]

@teakwood
Why not find a swinging grapple setup from North America? The only thing they don't have is the remote winch but most do have a winch.

Can i load a truck with it? a container?

[Southside]

Thats a very valid point Satamax.  Not the way things are here at all.  I have seen logging crews drive two plus hours to work 65 acre harvests.   

[Corley5]

Here in Michigan a cable skidder and a forwarder used to be the preferred team for hand cut hardwood.  But this was also how our northern hardwoods were high graded.  Too much effort and not enough $$$ to hand cut the pulp/low grade to actually improve the stand.  There's still some crews that do it.  I bought pulp firewood from an Iron Mule crew working just down the road from us the last couple years.  The hand cutters were still short stacking for the machine.  They do a good job but were the first to go home when the markets got soft with the virus.  The job's not finished and they're still home.  No big payments on an old Mule.  Mechanical Cut to length in hardwoods is the preferred method and gets the whole timber stand improvement done.  The jobs look nice when they're done.  The slash is all flat etc.  The cost to have men on the ground with chainsaws is too high.  If you can even find someone willing to work that hard these days.  These European machines look good and would get the job done but around here the economics of one just isn't there.  Tree length skidding is prohibited in DNR hardwood sales and many private sales run by a forester.  Row thinning in pine plantation still allows it but most of that is done CTL too.  I saw a slasher go by the farm a week or so ago.  First active one I've seen around here in a quite a while.  Most aspen clear cuts are done CTL.  Smaller landings etc.  There's still a niche for small cable machines on small jobs that aren't economically practical to move a million dollars worth of equipment too.  It's also not worth it to move a $200,000 machine to such a job and it require a LOT of those kind of jobs to make it pay.   

[Corley5]

To me a forwarder equipped with a winch capable of pulling off both sides and to the rear would be the best.  That would allow pulling timber off hillsides etc. and negate the use of a cable machine bunching for the forwarder.

[nativewolf]

That would be neat and I think we have enough room in/under the center beam to support a winch.  The issue we have is that we get trees that are just too big to load more than a 8' log with the forwarder grapple.  In those cases we'd really like to have a skidder to yank 21' sections back to the landing.  Then we need a more powerful loader on the landing that can lift a 21' section of oak with a small end of 36" or so.  We don't have that right now but are looking.  Looking ....but newish ones $ say  :'(.  

[Satamax]

To me a forwarder equipped with a winch capable of pulling off both sides and to the rear would be the best.  That would allow pulling timber off hillsides etc. and negate the use of a cable machine bunching for the forwarder.

Well, addapt a winch like this!  ;D ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abvkRTjH9uo
I never heard of a shasher. I had seen some in TV programs. Don't even know if they exist over here.  How much does a slasher's blade cost? I could cope with one for firewood 

[Riwaka]

Cord king UK use a 60 inch saw blade on one of their firewood processors. There are some german firewood processors too with blade saws.
CS27-40 (Model 60) - Cord King Europe

Alps might have too many rocks and stone fragments for toothed saw blades.
Might use something like a woodcracker splitter, so you can use a less expensive shorter bar and chain (or smaller diameter saw blade)  to cut firewood with.

Woodcracker splitters
YouTube

Teakwood - could put a fixed head rotator grapple on the big excavator for yard sort and container work.(still allow the excavator to swap to bucket digging mode)
Ensign - Engineering Services (Rotorua) Ltd

Brazil just use John Deere210 with a shallow dangle grapple  rotobec.
YouTube

For loading trucks in the teak plantation, if no trucks with cranes. Convert an older excavator to a log loader with different geometry boom/ arm set. Uses the original rams. (something like ZX 180 or larger, cat 318, volvo etc)
Boom And Arm Sets | SATCO Logging Attachments  

Could use a bluetooth headset on protos helmet rather than remote skidder winches.
PROTOS Integral | Protos Integral

[Satamax]

Thanks a lot Riwaka. 

I had seen the cord king. Nice, but expensive, the blade has inserts. 

Instead of a splitting grapple, i'd rather have this. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj9BNib3yC0

Followed by a saw. Mind you, i don't know if it's more efficient than a wood splitter combine. 

But the rotary cone heads cost an arm and a leg! 3000/4000 dolls easy.