Not to open a can of worms, but ...

[Saki]

Have been working on a mini-barn for some much needed storage. During my laying out of the barn and checking figures actually took a minute to measure a standard 2X4 and was a little surprised to find it was 1&1/2 by 3&1/2. Strikes me as a little on the small side. I know for years they had been getting gradually smaller to allow for drying, surfacing, etc, but when do you stop?

Was talking it over with one of the locals, and he said that was nothing, had I seen the new building code for sheeting on stick-built houses. He went on to inform me that the only place that OSB or plywood is required is at the corners of the houses to stiffen up the walls. Insulation board or similar stuff meets code for the majority of the wall. We live in an area prone to tornados and other storms. Would make me a little nervous knowing that all that is between you and a chunk of storm debris is:
2 coats of paint
1/2 inch drywall
5 or so inches of fiberglass insulation
insulation board
vinyla siding

Maybe I am a little paranoid, but I think they're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here. I intend to build our home with poplar framing and some type of sheeting over ALL the exterior. I think that is why house built a 100 years ago are still standing and the early 80s modular is ready for a weiner roast.

[whitepe]

Saki,

Welcome to the forestry forum. What part
of Indiana are you from?  My father-in-law has
a certified tree farm near Bluffton, Indiana
It was just re-certified by an Indiana state forester
this summer.  Someone also came up from Purdue
to talk to him about how he manages it.
His secret?  Hard work.  He plants somewhere
between 400-1000 oaks and walnuts every year and
keeps the undergrowth under control.

About a mile down the road from me here in Illinois
there is an old one room school house
that someone renovated about 5 or 6 years ago
and turned it into a house. It was built with 2 x 4 oak studs
in 1846. That's 2 inches by 4 inches  It seems to jive with your theory.

Whitepe

[Tom]

yeah, your right.  things keep getting thinner and thinner.  It's a sore point with me that building codes are dependent on ink more so than the product.  

I heard last year that California has approved a new "light" stud for interior walls.  1.25:".  Yep 5/4 studs.

I'm glad that I have the means to cut my own.  2x4 means 2x4 to me.

[Gordon]

You forgot the Tyvek in your protection formula.  

As far as sheathing only on the corners, in VA in the early 80's that was all that was required as well. So it's nothing new in some areas.

Building codes are ever changing. Guess some people have to justify their jobs and the best way to do that is to keep changing the codes. Yes new materials come through so code does need updated, but some of the changes in the plumbing code are just plain rediculous.

Then you put in the circle "the inspector" and how he or she interpets the code at inspection. Don't even get me started on that one. >:(

Ok on a different note. How long has it been since they put worms in cans?

Gordon

[Tom]

 :D I still use cans, Gordon.  Those great big tomato juice cans work real good and the worms can't crawl out if you don't fill them all the way.  :D

[CHARLIE]

Nope Tom....wrong can. What you do is get a 3 lb. coffee can and two of the plastic lids they use. Cut out both ends and put the plastic cover on one end, put in dirt and worms and a plastic cover on the other end. The worm like to go to the bottom of the can. So, just flip the can over each time, take off the cover and all the worms are on top saying, "What the hell happened?"  And if they had eyes, they would get real wide open in astonishment. ;D

Here in Minnesota they still put sheathing on the whole house. They use waferboard for sheathing on both the sides,  roof and floor.  When I built my house, I specified for a plywood floor and roof sheathing.  One thing about house inspectors is, they check that the house meets code but don't care whether it's squared up or not. If you hire a contractor, it pays big dividends to pick based on reputation and not how cheap he can give you a lot of square footage. :P

[Corley5]

My house is built from big tooth aspen.  Full 2X6 studs in the exterior walls.  Full 2X4 studs in the interior walls.  One inch lumber planed to 15/16 for exterior sheeting with 7/8 white pine T&G over that and a layer of Typar house wrap in between.  The interior walls are all done in 7/8 hardwood T&G.  The building inspector griped about the rough sawn.  This house'll be long after its contemporaries are gone.

[CHARLIE]

Geez Greg! That's got to be a solid built home! Why would the inspector gripe about rough sawn wood. What does that have to do about anything.

The summer after my first year of college (early '60's), I worked for my uncle as a carpenter's helper (a grunt.... :.  We were preparing a house for moving that was built in the depression. We pulled off the interior plaster and there was only a stud every 48"!  This house made it through quite a few Florida hurricanes too. Maybe 'cause there was a lot of give against the wind. The home is still standing today, but we beefed it up a quite a bit to meet code.

[Corley5]

They want stamped lumber in this county.  Counties around us aren't as stringent.  By the time the inspector came out the walls were up and the roof was on and his partner in the office had signed the approval.  Of course I went into the zoning office at 9:45 AM fifteen minutes before they closed and went out to harass people.  He was in a hurry and scanned quickly through my sketches took my money and I left with the OK to use popple as my building material ;) :D ;D 8) 8).  Grandpa and I had been told by someone, although the inspectors never mention it, that rough sawn is fine as long as you go a size larger I.E. use a 2X6 instead of a 2X4.  Makes sense Huh?  Full 2X4 vs 1 1/2X3 1/2 no grade stamp use a full 2X6.  That's why I've got full 2X10s for floor joists.  That is the one part that the inspector was impressed with and even asked if they were full 2X10.  I guess he forgot his tape measure.  I wanted 2X6s in the exterior walls anyway so I could get more insulation in them.  We also built the trusses.  They are also full 2X6 on 2' centers.  The stud walls are all on 16" centers.  It's an extra strong winter wind that'll make this place creak.  It doesn't happen very often but I have heard it.

[Saki]

Whitepe, I am from west-central Indiana. Closest town of any size is crawfordsville. Did some classified forest inspection work in the northeast part of state in 1991. Mainly in Allen, Dekalb, and Steuben counties so am familiar with the general area around Bluffton. Good to meet you. Saki

[Don P]

Hi Saki,
Crawfordsville is a way station for us pretty often on my way cross country. I've stayed in the KOA and Super 8 more times than I can count. Have taken the Brown county longcut the last few times around.
2x4's have been their present size my entire career, the previous size 1⁵/₈X 3⁵/₈ was abandoned in the early 60's. But actually I build a stronger frame than my dad did since everyone back then used 2x4's for exterior walls and we all use 2x6's now. For rack bracing plywood or OSB provides a stronger diaphragm than does board sheathing...although a good diagonal board sheathing job is plenty strong. Horizontal or vertical board sheathing provides very little rack resistance, often older buildings of those types will have a let in diagonal 1x4 brace from each corner.
The foam and vinyl mansions are kinda spooky to me...have pocket knife, can enter. They meet the newer energy star rating, too bad strength takes a back seat. Makes for a pretty "juicy" frame to work on.  After hurricane Andrew there was talk of making a solid 4" thick storm room in every new house in Florida, don't think it passed through. Alot of the construction that blew apart was very poorly built...plywood just nailed at the edges, etc. You know the difference between cheap vinyl and the premium stuff? They write your name on the back of the expensive stuff so you get it back after a storm :D
Tyvek has replaced tarpaper as the housewrap of choice mainly because it goes on quick and in large pieces, tarpaper is probably a better product for the long haul. It repels bulk water by swelling closed (seen baggy tarpaper after a rain?) yet allows vapor to pass out when dry and taught. A good example of cellulose shrinking and swelling. The plastics are showing some failures, cedar extractives decompose tyvek for example.
I've seen plenty of examples of construction like Charlie describes which is why we ended up with codes. I've even worked on houses with no frame at all just 2 layers of boards with newspaper between for the walls nailed to the perimeter of the floor frame and a 2x4 top rim nailed on flat to the interior that the rafters sat on. These are locally called board and board or Jenny Lind houses for a reason I've never been able to find out, maybe they sing in a wind :.

[Ron Wenrich]

                                                                            

 

My place was built in the 1850s.  It is post and beam with board and batten siding.  

I've been replacing my siding over the past several years.  The primary building material is 4x4s, and they are only placed where there is a door or a window.  That is about 48" spacings, at best.

The building is sitting on a loose rock foundation.  Each corner has a brace running from sill to corner post.  There is one from each direction.  Everything is held together with a single wooden peg.

When I was putting up the siding, I decided to throw a level on the wall, just to see how much it has moved.  After 150 years, it was still dead on.

The only problem they used to have was that they undersized the floor joists and had some weird spacing.  A 3 x 8 on 36" centers just doesn't make it.  Roof joists are only 3 x 4.

My summerhouse was built somewhat later.  That was built using balloon construction with full 2 x 4 hemlock.  Centers were whatever looked good.  It is still in good shape, and I have attached it to the house and converted it into my bedroom.  

[whitepe]

What do you folks think about those
engineered floor joists?  (I-joists) I know the math
says that the strength depends on the vertical thickness
what happens with some unanticipated side loading?
It just looks flimsy to me but I know looks can
be deceiving.

Whitepe

[Bro. Noble]

Ron,

I really like your house,  I'll bet it could tell some tales if it could talk.

My wife's ancestors (Ewing) came from Manor Hill PA.  West of Hunington.  We went there and found their old house and family cemetery a few years ago.  Thats a neat area.  Enjoyed all of PA that we saw.

Noble

[Tom]

Are you talking about the ones that are plywood or oriented strand with 1x2's on the top and bottom?  They are supposed to be quite strong with a vertical load, bu-t-t-t-t--   the fire department doesn't like them too much.  When a fire burns away the little bit of wood that forms the "I" then the piece weakens and the floor comes down.  that's bad news if it is a second floor and you are fighting the fire from underneath.

[Don P]

Our Homeowner now is an ex-fireman/cop, he had the same opinion but  went with the I-joists for flatness. He has heard of guys getting out on the carpet as the TJI's collapsed . We are on a basement here, over a crawlspace I might worry about them and moisture. That said, I can install a 30'er solo and they are crown free. We are warned not to walk the joists,  the side loading can roll them. Once the floor is down they are stiff and flat though.
 Ever think about a deck installed on these? I'm bolting through the rimboard but its attachment to the floor structure is less than ideal in my little brain. Deck meeting cantilever...don't get me started : :D
As long as I'm ranting, we've done the open web joists with 2x4 or metal W webwork. They're ok but are pre-engineered for the plans, no field adjustments. Had a foundation off 3 ways once, one goof was 4"...played heck with getting the floor down. Think of fire loose in that plenum, it has the run of the floor in all directions.
Roof trusses with the gang nail plates are another peeve. How much charring does it take for those 1/4" naillets to let go?
All that aside I guess there's plenty of good construction done with these materials everyday and they all use smaller material more efficiently.
Oh I remembered another place I've seen the board and board houses, Louisiana. They're bargeboard houses there... disassembled keelboats turned into housing.

[CHARLIE]

Well, I got sick and tired of creaky floors (of course they did come in handy when the children were teenagers and trying to sneak out of the house....... ;D).  When I built my current house in 1995 I went with TJI's (engineered 'I' joists) and I like 'em.  No creaky floors! 8)  

[Eggsander]

I was helping a buddy of mine cut in a patio door a few years ago. we found that his wall (80's vintage house) consisted of masonite siding, 2" foam, and 2x4 studs. I couldn't figure out what was keeping the place from sliding over sideways. That's when the sawzall hacked through a steel strap. Each wall apparently had two straps run diagonally to prevent racking.
On the new "energy code" houses. A couple of Mayo docs in town built large (~7000 sf) very nice homes. The windows are rotting out of both of them after only a couple of years. They're attributing that to improper flashing. They've also found that the inside of the walls are completely covered with mold. Since the walls can't breathe, the moisture in the walls is causing this. Nice way to start out in 3/4 million dollar house!  

[CHARLIE]

Eggsander, I hate to hear that.  I've got a lot of my money tied up in some of those Mayo Doctors homes I'm sure. In fact I bet I've all but paid for some of them...... :-/  At least I feel like I have.  Correct me if I'm wrong Eggsander, but I believe Minnesota is now requiring new homes to have air exchangers to bring fresh air into the house. I reckon that is because the new homes are so tight they don't breathe, so need some apparatus to exchange the air. :P  

[L. Wakefield]

   Y'know, this is an excellent thread! Almost deserves its own heading ie (timber) construction techniques. I noticed when I was on the FD that the fellas with the best insight in fighting fire were the ones who'd been into housing construction. Of course it was even better if they'd built those very houses  ;) , but any background let them hit the ground running better.    lw

[Ron Wenrich]

I used to do radon tests in our area.  The company was out of Colorado, and the houses I went to were mainly people that were being transfered and the company was guaranteeing a sales price.  Radon had to be fixed before the transaction was complete.

This area has a high radon count.  A rating of 4 would be a fail.  The tests were always put in the basements, and would run for 5-7 days.  

Since I stored a little bit of equipment in my house, they had me run a test.  I figured I was a definite fail   I have a few french drains and a part dirt floor.

The test came back a 0.39, one of the lowest I ever run.  I figured it must be due to the air exchange.  

[C_Miller]

Does the fiberglass roll insulation maintain its R-value with full dimension studs or does it change up or down? ( down in value not down off a duck)

C

[Don P]

It goes down when compressed. The 6" R-19 loses..I think...1 point in a 5 1/2" wall. It was rated bone dry, add humidity...bigger loss. The newer dense insulation has higher R- per inch, yeah, flies in the face of what I just said but there it is. For instance, on the current job I framed with 2x12 rafters then went over them with 2x2's to get a prop'r vent and then 2 layers of r-19 (joints staggered) in each bay for a real R-38 assembly. Another company just uses 2x12 and the more expensive dense insulation and claims the same R.
This spring I went into last year's house... through the soffits where I could and from the top, removing shingles and plywood to repair a careless insulation job >:(. This was after calling them back out during construction! The low bid ain't always a bargain, anyway, a well detailed job means more than sweating over compaction. Split around wires, push batts to the back of bays then pull them back flush, no puckers, no gaps. BTW a wall assembly is typically 20-30% studs~ r-1/inch. I frame heavy (might have to hold up a ship :D ) add windows and doors, and the need to do a good insulation job on the remaining areas becomes more critical.