Dead battery on the new LT50

JVK · March 26, 2012, 02:30:15 PM

Why does it always happen on the weekend when I can't call anyone? A beautiful Sat morning, away I go to cut some logs and the battery is dead. I thought the key was left on so another lesson learned. A half day getting the generator and charger together. The mill head is down all the way and I've never had the battery cover off. I bent that real bad to get access to the battery posts and leave it charge for a couple hours. Finish the day and life is good.

Start early Sun morning, no problem. Later in the day I noticed the display window on Accuset was showing the head position with the key off. If I used any function switch it would go out. Sometimes it would power up again with the key off. Take the key out of the ignition switch and still power to the screen. I called WM this morning and they said solenoid or key switch is faulty. Have you WM guys ever had this problem? Of course I learned how to jumper the mill so I can raise the sawhead up to get at the battery today as well.

Brucer · March 26, 2012, 07:39:36 PM

Quote from: JVK on March 26, 2012, 02:30:15 PM
... I bent that real bad to get access to the battery posts and leave it charge for a couple hours. ...

>:(

Quote
... Of course I learned how to jumper the mill so I can raise the sawhead up to get at the battery today as well.

:(

Chris Burchfield · March 26, 2012, 08:04:37 PM

I had a dead battery last year. I always put the head all the way down to prevent theft. I jump started with power to the positive side of the alternator after charging that way for about fifteen minutes. Jumping the starter solenoid using a screwdriver. I ran it sawing for about an hour. No real problem. The battery was six years old and I installed a new one.

pineywoods · March 26, 2012, 09:55:37 PM

Chris, jumper to the big post on the starter solenoid. That goes right to the battery...

customsawyer · March 26, 2012, 10:04:23 PM

In the fuse box to the right of the battery box is a post you can put on the fuse to raise the head with jumper cables. :P These things are all covered in the owners manual. Not trying to slam on you JVK but for the newbies any time you have a problem with a WM mill check the manual and it will most likely be there. If you can't find it there call WM or check on here. There is never a reason to bend things on the mill. One of the things I love about WM mills is the detail they have in the manuals. I have bought several other pieces of equipment that was not WM and the manual might be just one sheet of paper. :

JVK · March 26, 2012, 10:50:59 PM

The manual was a long ways away and like I said it was the weekend. Just saying what happened. Your right, the answer is there in the manual. I just had visions of Accuset going up in smoke as I'm looking at the mill with the jumper cables. Best bet for me was to go direct to the battery. I called WM first thing Monday morning and we determined the dead battery problem is a stuck solenoid or starter switch in the control box. My question to the forum was if any of you had the power to the control panel with the key in your pocket. Sorry if I'm sounding newbeish here, I'll try to do better next time. Jim

customsawyer · March 27, 2012, 04:19:15 AM

JVK I don't want you to think that I am attacking you. That is not my intention. Sorry if it sounds that way.

Bibbyman · March 27, 2012, 07:57:30 AM

It happens. First time it happened to me I struggled to get the battery cover off also. After I was reminded that there was a way provided, I remembered being shown or told that in the training class when we picked up our first mill.

A week or so back I'd left the key on and ran down the battery. Our mill has an external mounted alternator so I hooked a charger to the hot lead and ground and let it charge while I loaded the deck. As we have an electric mill, it don't take much 12v to kick in the starter switches.

I don't think it'd be a good idea to jump start an engine from the alternator.

Magicman · March 27, 2012, 09:16:45 AM

Quote from: pineywoods on March 26, 2012, 09:55:37 PM
Chris, jumper to the big post on the starter solenoid. That goes right to the battery...

Not the alternator, the starter solenoid.

terrifictimbersllc · March 27, 2012, 10:30:53 AM

On my LT40 remote there's a small box forward of the battery box, containing a big solenoid. This is the ~~accessory~~ power to the hydraulic strip solenoid, which is powered by voltage from the ACC of the key switch which goes to one of its small studs. For years occasionally my Accuset display would remain on when the key was off. Something was wrong with this solenoid internally where its small stud connected to the ACC was ~~powered~~ receiving power internally (not from ACC voltage which was not there when the wire to this solenoid stud was disconnected. Recently I replaced this "power to the hydraulic strip" solenoid and no longer have any problem with power remaining on when the key is off.

Jim_Rogers · March 27, 2012, 10:39:42 AM

I take my manual with me when I move the mill to an on site job.
I've called in parts from the road to get them on the UPS truck before shipping time to have them here next day.
That has saved my butt a few times.

Jim Rogers

Brucer · March 27, 2012, 08:20:15 PM

Older mills didn't have that jumper post stashed in the fuse box. However, you can still save the battery box cover by removing the access cover on the side of the head and turning the head drive pulley by hand. It's slow and a pain, but it works. Don't pinch your fingers in the belt.

Magic Smoke · March 28, 2012, 03:00:04 PM

Quote from: Magicman on March 27, 2012, 09:16:45 AM
Quote from: pineywoods on March 26, 2012, 09:55:37 PM
Chris, jumper to the big post on the starter solenoid. That goes right to the battery...

Not the alternator, the starter solenoid.

The big stud on the alternator and the starter solenoid are in parallel from the battery so it doesn't really matter which one you use, however, one should take great care not to allow the jumper cable clamp to touch anything other than the stud itself (don't want the "Magic Smoke" to escape).

Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on March 27, 2012, 10:30:53 AM
On my LT40 remote there's a small box forward of the battery box, containing a big solenoid. This is the accessory solenoid...

The solenoid in the fuse box is for the hydraulics. It enables/disables the hydraulic positive contact button with the key.

zopi · March 28, 2012, 03:31:39 PM

do not try to jump start the mill from the alternator post...charging, or powering enough to move the head, and get at the battery..sure..but jumping the engine takes a boat load of current...another opportunity to the magic smoke out and cause a tron leak...

zopi · March 28, 2012, 03:34:23 PM

If I had a bigger mill with all the widgets..I would wire a dedicated set of cables to the tow vehicle..so that the battery gets charged going down the road...I have a set of heavy gage cables wired that way on my chipper, and it has saved my butt a few times..even if the batt on the chiiper went south, I could still start it and get it working..

Magic Smoke · March 28, 2012, 04:20:07 PM

Quote from: zopi on March 28, 2012, 03:31:39 PM
do not try to jump start the mill from the alternator post...charging, or powering enough to move the head, and get at the battery..sure..but jumping the engine takes a boat load of current...another opportunity to the magic smoke out and cause a tron leak...

I'm not sure if I agree zopi, I'm not trying to be argumentative but, when you attach to the alternator, you are attaching the jumper cable to the same wires that are used to power the starter on a daily basis, so I'm not sure why it would cause "tron leakage" ;D, however, given the choice, I would agree that hooking to the starter would be preferred (less voltage drop across the wires).

SAWMILL BUDDY · March 28, 2012, 05:33:05 PM

I keep the manual in my truck ;D

sparks · March 28, 2012, 05:38:15 PM

If you turn the key off and your screen stays on it is usually the accessory solenoid stuck on. If you walk with you mill when you saw the solenoid is in the control box mounted to the floor of the box. It looks just like your hydraulic solenoid. If the key is off and the screen is on, the small terminal with the red wire should be dead and only one big terminal should be hot. If both big terminals are hot the solenoid is stuck on and will drain your battery.

terrifictimbersllc · March 28, 2012, 05:44:25 PM

Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on March 27, 2012, 10:30:53 AM
On my LT40 remote there's a small box forward of the battery box, containing a big solenoid. This is the ~~accessory~~ power to the hydraulic strip solenoid, which is powered by voltage from the ACC of the key switch which goes to one of its small studs. For years occasionally my Accuset display would remain on when the key was off. Something was wrong with this solenoid internally where its small stud connected to the ACC was ~~powered~~ receiving power internally (not from ACC voltage which was not there when the wire to this solenoid stud was disconnected. Recently I replaced this "power to the hydraulic strip" solenoid and no longer have any problem with power remaining on when the key is off.

I made some edits to clarify that this solenoid is not the accessory solenoid. It is clear to me that in its defective state, this solenoid's small stud was powered internally, and thereby powering the ACC stud on the key switch.

zopi · March 28, 2012, 08:09:39 PM

Quote from: Magic Smoke on March 28, 2012, 04:20:07 PM
Quote from: zopi on March 28, 2012, 03:31:39 PM
do not try to jump start the mill from the alternator post...charging, or powering enough to move the head, and get at the battery..sure..but jumping the engine takes a boat load of current...another opportunity to the magic smoke out and cause a tron leak...

I'm not sure if I agree zopi, I'm not trying to be argumentative but, when you attach to the alternator, you are attaching the jumper cable to the same wires that are used to power the starter on a daily basis, so I'm not sure why it would cause "tron leakage" ;D, however, given the choice, I would agree that hooking to the starter would be preferred (less voltage drop across the wires).

you could be right...but isn't the alternator output wire pretty small? might be ok to start the smaller engines that way. dunno..just never seen a alternator out put that I though would be safe for jump starting..I was postulating as a general rule...

JVK · March 29, 2012, 12:18:38 AM

Thank you for the replies. Sparks...I have the accessory solenoid on the way, it's in the same box as the debarker part.
I don't think the key was in the on position that Sat morning. Usually good about checking that stuff. Good chance the
battery will be dead when I get back to the mill. I'll be well prepared.

Fun watching you guys going back and forth on the battery subject. The loggers were giving me "good" advice on that Sat
morning. "Hey Jim, put the positive on this, no wait...maybe over here". I just wanted to saw so I knew I would be safe by
charging the battery. And stay away from my new mill! It's all fun. Jim

Brucer · March 29, 2012, 01:30:37 AM

With all the electronics on the new machines, you definitely do now want to hook the wrong charging lead to the wrong place.

JVK · March 29, 2012, 02:04:11 AM

Hey Brucer,
I liked what you said about the access cover and moving the head by hand. If we can step back and look at the problem that is in front of us, a simple answer will usually present itself. But you know how it is. Only two nice days for the month, new mill sitting there, logs to saw and friendly folks hanging around. Easy to get distracted.

Magic Smoke · March 29, 2012, 10:09:17 AM

Quote from: zopi on March 28, 2012, 08:09:39 PM
Quote from: Magic Smoke on March 28, 2012, 04:20:07 PM
Quote from: zopi on March 28, 2012, 03:31:39 PM
do not try to jump start the mill from the alternator post...charging, or powering enough to move the head, and get at the battery..sure..but jumping the engine takes a boat load of current...another opportunity to the magic smoke out and cause a tron leak...

I'm not sure if I agree zopi, I'm not trying to be argumentative but, when you attach to the alternator, you are attaching the jumper cable to the same wires that are used to power the starter on a daily basis, so I'm not sure why it would cause "tron leakage" ;D, however, given the choice, I would agree that hooking to the starter would be preferred (less voltage drop across the wires).
you could be right...but isn't the alternator output wire pretty small? might be ok to start the smaller engines that way. dunno..just never seen a alternator out put that I though would be safe for jump starting..I was postulating as a general rule...

You're probably right zopi. I believe most, if not all, of the WM sawmills have the same size cabling from the alternator to the starter, as the cable from the harness to the starter, however, it's better to be safe than sorry - If you have to crank the engine, use the starter stud.

Brucer · March 29, 2012, 03:59:09 PM

Quote from: JVK on March 29, 2012, 02:04:11 AM
... I liked what you said about the access cover and moving the head by hand. If we can step back and look at the problem that is in front of us, a simple answer will usually present itself. ...

There is a story behind my observation (there's always a story). I might never have though of it, but ...

Before I bought my mill I was running an LT40 for another guy. He'd arrive at 7:00, buck and stage the logs, mark the dimensions on the end, and start sawing if there was time. I'd show up at 8:00 and take over the sawing while he went off to supervise the raising of his new house.

One day about an hour after he left, the head wouldn't rise any more. It would lower (slowly) but not go up. I called the boss and he happened to be on the roof of his house, helping offload roofing material from a crane. He figured it was the up-down motor brushes, but the spares were in his truck and there was no way he could leave right away.

So, figuring I could speed up the repair, I opened up the side of the head, removed the belt from the motor, and unbolted the motor so I could get at the brushes. Pulled one out and there was so little left the spring wasn't maintaining any pressure. No way to patch it until the boss got there with the new brushes.

So I'm standing there, looking at the up-down gearbox with a large pulley attached to it and no belt on the pulley and I realize it looks just like a handwheel. Hmmm. Can I turn it by hand? Yep, no problem. So when the boss arrived there I was, sawing away -- very slowly, but sawing. At first he thought I'd fixed it, but then he walked around to the drive side and saw the cover off. I had a bungee cord hooked to one of the pulley spokes so it wouldn't drift from the saw vibration.

I would never have thought of it if I hadn't had the cover off.

caveman · June 01, 2019, 05:49:00 PM

Quote from: sparks on March 28, 2012, 05:38:15 PM
If you turn the key off and your screen stays on it is usually the accessory solenoid stuck on. If you walk with you mill when you saw the solenoid is in the control box mounted to the floor of the box. It looks just like your hydraulic solenoid. If the key is off and the screen is on, the small terminal with the red wire should be dead and only one big terminal should be hot. If both big terminals are hot the solenoid is stuck on and will drain your battery.

Scenario here today: Went to start engine and nothing but a few led's lighting up. Battery was drained to less than 7v. After charging for a few hours it is up to 11.45v. I suspected the solenoid that Sparks described above but the Accuset screen does not stay on with the key off. On the battery side of the solenoid I get 11.45v. ON the other side of the solenoid I measured 0.71v. I anticipated either having the same voltage on both sides if the solenoid is bad and zero voltage if it is good, what would cause this?

We have not started the engine since last weekend so I assumed this is enough draw to smash a battery, especially in this hot weather. When the key is turned on and off, the solenoid can be heard actuating.

Have any of you dealt with this problem?

Magicman · June 01, 2019, 07:03:06 PM

How old is the battery?

caveman · June 01, 2019, 07:42:34 PM

The battery is three years old. Last weekend it started the engine enthusiastically and without hesitation. I was unable to jump start it with the tractor although it did sluggishly turn over. The 6 amp charger is on it now and I will let it charge for a while, maybe overnight. The hour meter stays on even with the key removed and all of the wires removed from the negative battery terminal.

Thank you for your guidance.

Magicman · June 01, 2019, 09:21:31 PM

A good properly charged battery should read 12.7 vdc. I added this to my sawmill so that I always know: Sawmill Voltmeter in Sawmills and Milling
A couple of months ago I noticed that it was below the 12.7 and sure enough, yup, the battery was going. Since I needed a battery quickly I bought the best deep cycle battery that NAPA has.

Three years is long enough, replace the battery.

terrifictimbersllc · June 02, 2019, 04:44:58 AM

Woodmizer is now putting the Deka group 31 AGM battery in the super mills. I ordered one from them some months ago. It cost more but I think it will pay off. I was using car quest and then NAPA batteries before each usually lasting about 2 years.

The AGM battery is supposed to have a very low discharge rate standing unused but I still will put a tender on it in colder weather when the mill is idle more than a day or two.

Ianab · June 02, 2019, 05:42:33 AM

I think the batteries in those WM mills take a bit of a hammering from the electric hydraulic pumps? So they get lot more discharge / charge cycles than the battery in a car or truck. Those only have a few seconds of serious load when you are starting, then it gradually gets recharged as you drive. On the mill the battery gets loaded every few minutes as the hydraulics are used, then recharged in between. 2 things eventually kill a battery, age and use. In this case it's use.

BTW, if a battery reads 12V it's "flat". If it's below that after some charging, it's an "ex-battery".

Substitute "Battery" for "Parrot" in this clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnciwwsvNcc

That battery wouldn't Voom if you put 4,000 volts up it ;D

caveman · June 02, 2019, 07:23:30 AM

I went out to the mill about an hour ago, the voltmeter showed 12.8 v with the charger disconnected. I turned the key and the Yanmar started. I let it idle for a few minutes and turned it off before my neighbors decided to get out of bed and remind me that it was 6:30 a.m. on a Sunday. The voltmeter showed 14.2 while the engine was idling so I am hopeful that the battery will continue to charge some. The battery's ground wires were left disconnected last night so that if there is a parasitic draw it would not be draining the battery as I was trying to charge it.

I am hoping that John or I left the key in the accessory position last weekend and the battery has a chance but I suspect it will prove to be a DEAD as the parrot in Ian's post.

The saw job today should not take too long, 10-12 cedar, all live edge 1" and 2" thick.

I appreciate all of the guidance, insight and suggestions regarding the battery and charging system.

Magicman · June 02, 2019, 07:32:21 AM

Quote from: Ianab on June 02, 2019, 05:42:33 AMthe batteries in those WM mills take a bit of a hammering from the electric hydraulic pumps? So they get lot more discharge / charge cycles than the battery in a car or truck

True which is why an automotive battery is not used, Deep Cycle only.

Ben Cut-wright · June 02, 2019, 09:03:07 AM

The pdf. from which I took the quote below contains great battery selection and testing information. Might be useful info for this thread. https://woodmizer.com/us/portals/0/docs/743d8322-c451-4676-8e08-89c0c8e77ef1.pdf

My comments are directed to "Sparks" in particular but other members may have interest or further knowledge as well.

Quote from above linked pdf. titled "Batteries and alternators-Wood-Mizer": "The hydraulics on the sawmill run directly off the battery. The alternator only comes into play after the hydraulics stop running. It replaces what you have taken out."

Is that quote accurate? It has been my understanding that the alternator, the highest voltage source in the circuit, will be the *primary current provider to a load. Perhaps the quoted statement does not strive to entail a complete description and appears brief and inaccurate to me because of the brevity.

I have no idea why the font size changed from what I saw in preview.

Dave Shepard · June 02, 2019, 09:12:29 AM

My mill was delivered 4-8-08. In November of 2014 I replaced the battery with a WM spec Carquest/Deka battery, which is still in it. The battery was still performing ok, but I didn't want to risk a low voltage situation which could fry electronics. The WM spec battery is 1260 cca, whereas most group 31 batteries are less than 1000. The deep cycle marine battery in the edger, delivered the same day, decided not to cooperate for the 2019 sawing season. It hasn't run in almost a year anyway, so I don't know of if would have made it another year had it been run regularly or not.

caveman · June 02, 2019, 09:35:38 PM

This afternoon I bought a new battery that looked identical to the original but with different stickers. It has been installed. The original battery will probably be good enough to start a Bronco or some other gasoline powered pile of plunder I have around for a while longer.

I would like to do the anywhere/everywhere hydraulics modification soon. It would be much more convenient.