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High impact forest destruction

Started by jim king, March 10, 2007, 07:12:48 PM

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jim king

This photo shows literally what all the smoke in the Amazon is all about.  This is subsistance farming and the infamaous slash and burn.  As the forestry laws do not allow the people to harvest any timber on thier property without paying more in fees to obtain a license than they earn in a year to earn a meager living for themselves they resort to slash and burn as shown here. 
By the size of the trees you can see that this area was burnt over about five  years ago and has probably been burnt 20 or 30 times over the years.  No one is going to say anything to the owner for trying to raise food for his family in this method but if he were to cut one tree for sale and earn more than slash and burning the whole area he would have it confiscated.  The crop you see starting is a mixture of corn and yuca/cassava/manioc that will not feed his family for two weeks but if he could sell two trees he could for a month.



wesdor

Jim, you give me a small idea. 

What is the cost of a license to log timber?  I'm thinking along the lines of the fair trade coffee.

Could some group of buyers go together and help these people?  They could cut a few trees a year, make more money to support their famiies, take better care of the forest, and we might be able to get some high quality wood.

It is so often the problem that governments want to keep the poor even poorer.  I'm not sure I understand this situation, but wonder why common sense can begin to prevail. 

jim king

wesdor: 

I really dont have a solution as to how to make a change here in the Amazon.  The thousands of groups of ecologists living off the scary stories and promoting the idea that the Amazon is doomed even have the local politicians scared to do anything.  Egology is a very profitable and very big and powerful business.  It is like they used to say, you have to have a lot of money to be a good socialist.  Everyone is being told that the world is changing.  Of course it is changing, it always has and always will.  Why do you find tropical dinasaur fossils in cold climates ?  Why does the Amazon run East when it used to run West ?  Why did the last several ice ages retreat ? Did the neandrethals cooking fires cause global warming ?  Why do you find all these things.  The world has always been changing and always will and us as a bunch of little creatures running around are not going to stop the universe from changing..

A typical license to harvest wood off a 100 acre parcel costs about $300 and when the monthly family income of the rural people is a bit over $20 it is tough to come up with $300.  A few days ago I was in Lima the capital talking with the people who run the Dept. Of Natural Resources of Peru.  I presented a proposed change to the forestry law that would allow the small landholders to recieve a permit to cut up to 10 cubic meters per hectare (about 1000 bf in logs per acre) off of thier own land for a simple fee of $16 .  I also proposed in the change that the Government form something like a forestry developement association that would buy cut lumber for export from the hundreds of people who can produce 1000 bf a month each and group it so it is worth the time for a buyer to come here and make a purchase.  What buyer is going to come here and buy from 500 people and 500 different export permits..  It would be impossible.

I do not feel that is the Govenment  wanting to keep the peole down or any thing like that.  It is simple ignorance on the part of the authorities who have very little true information to work from. 

One example:  Everyone talks about the deforestation of the Amazon. I gave them some figures and explained to them that we do not have a forestry industry here in the Amazon yet and someone should get it together and get it going.

Using Oregon as an example I explained to them that Loreto State where we live has 368.851 km² and Oregon has 251.418 km making Oregon considerably smaller than Loreto.  Oregon has over the last decades produced anually an average of 4,450,000,000 bf of timber annually and Loreto produces 24,000,000 bf or .005 % of what Oregon produces with much more area than Oregon.

What more can I say.

Ron Wenrich

I remember when a local mayor made the proclamation that their fair city would not use any rain forest wood in any government construction or furnishings.  The reason was that by using rain forest wood, they would be encouraging the destruction of the Amazon rain forest. 

A little bit of economics can go a long way.  My thinking is that if we bought some rain forest wood, then those folks who are doing slash and burn agriculture would have some spending money, and wouldn't have to cut as much.  So, there are a lot of governments that need to be educated.

I've often tried to figure out where wealth comes from.  Sure, the government can print money and make some people wealthy, but it usually erodes the others.  Wealth comes from extractive industries.  Forestry and agriculture are renewable, if done right, and can have a minimal impact.  Energy hasn't gotten to the point of thinking itself as renewable, and is working on it.  Minerals are not renewable.

When the wealth is gathered, it can then be turned into some form of currency.  The currency is only a means of trading product A for service B for product C.  For every time that the currency gets turned from one producer to the next, I call that a generation.  With a 16% tax rate, it only takes 9 generations for the government to get 90% of that wealth.  Each generation raises the standard of living for the entire society.  But, you must gather the wealth in order to pass it through the system.

By putting resources beyond the grasp of the citizens is keeping them poor.  Subsistance farming does no one any good and really doesn't do a whole lot for the ecosystem.

I can see your governments position.  If they made cutting permits really cheap, then people would simply cut trees instead of doing any type of farming.  That could lead to over logging and species mix could be a real problem.  We have that up here, where educated people will high grade the woods, because that is what sells.  Good for the pocketbook, bad for the forest.

I wonder if it wouldn't be more worthwhile to take a co-op approach to wood production.  A co-op would be owned by a group of landowners.  They would then come up with the seed money to get a cutting permit and produce the product.  If they could do some value added to the logs, by cutting lumber, that would be even the better.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

jim king

Ron:  That was a well thought out answer.  Very interesting.

wesdor

Thank you Ron,
You always have very good things to say.

Jim,
what you and Ron have said brings me to make a suggestion.  Could the Forestry Forum find some farmers (a farmer) who would respnsibly cut trees from a 100 acre area?  I'm thinking we could get enough people to make donations to cover the $300 costs. 

Is there any possibility that we could find the right person so they would do a great job of good logging and provide some good lumber.  How much lumber would they need to get a buyer interested?  Selling small amounts of lumber may be the real problem here, but it sure makes me think we should try to make a difference.

This is way beyond my ability to organize, but if we could help those people find something beyond subsitance farming it might do more good than we can imagine.

theorm

Ron,

High LOW impact forest destruction
What you are saying is making too much sense to ignore. What can we do to get things started? I realize that it will take money and time. But the public needs to change their mindset. The example of fair trade coffee is tremendous. We won't give up our coffee, so we had to make it better for the small farmer. Helping the small farmer move from slash and burn to becoming sustaining foresters, and some nice wood? Sounds good to me!

Theo

:P
The essence of loyalty is reciprocity.

Ron Wenrich

Well, we managed to supply a Logrite to Alsayeed in short order, I imagine we could do something along this line.  But, I don't think just supplying $300 for a cutting permit would do a whole lot without some other guidelines. 

First off, we would need someone in the area to give a little oversight and provide us with progress reports about how things are going.  I know next to nothing about rain forest forestry, but it would have to be some sort of sustainable harvesting.  It seems to me that if you only have a few of a given species in an area, you wouldn't want to go out cutting all of that species.  I also don't know how much of our northern forestry techniques work down there.

The next thing is what kind of equipment do they need.  I know that they carry stuff out, but do they need a saw to cut it down?  What secondary processes can they also undertake and what are the costs?  Getting some logs to a landing really doesn't do a whole lot for the community.  Its the working it up into a product and getting a higher return. 

It would really be neat to have something like this take off and have the forum be seed money providers and advisers.  I think we need some input from Jim.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

jim king

I was not thinking of anything near what you guys are offering as this is what my company does to help as many as possible .  Dont take my delay as  ignoring the responses by anymeans .  Just give me a couple of days to work on this and I would like to see it backed by a several authorities that would give a pogram like this credibility internationally such as the coffee industry as mentioned..  Something like this should get a high profile locally and internationally.  If anyone has more ideas please throw them in the pot.

I think it would be quite impressive if people from the timber industry in North America or from where ever put something like this together to assist people in the Amazon in a proper way.   If anyone is cold and bored and would like to come down and see firsthand I think you would find it very interesting , the beer is cold and we could hash over everyhing.

Ron Wenrich

In order to get an idea or product into the main line, you need 3 things to get success.  You need connectors, salesmen, and mavens. 

Mavens is what we have here at the forum.  They're generally people who know why or how something works.  Salesmen are people who eat, drink, and sleep one particular idea or product.  Jim is a good example of a salesman.  He knows the ideal inside and out.  Connectors are people who move in very large circles.  They know all types of people and will basically just exchange ideas.  They probably don't know a great deal about the product or idea, but they make others aware of it.

To give an example of how it works:  Take bottled water.  How many people remember when you would just go to the tap, get a glass of water, and drink it.  You would never see bottled water in the store.  So, how did it go from no water in the store to bottled water selling for more than gasoline?

There was a time when water just tasted bad.  But, it didn't mean it was bad for you.  Somebody came up with the idea that water that didn't have a taste had to be better for you.  So, they probably got in contact with some mavens.  Is bottled water better than tap water?  Some say yes, some say no.  We'll take the yeses.

Now, you have a product, but you need to push it.  In comes the salesmen.  People who believe in the product.  They know every rejuvenating aspect of bottled water.  They use it and they preach it.  But, they can't really make it take off.  They aren't in enough circles.

Connectors will tip the balance.  I believe that the connectors in this case were bicycle racers in Europe.  They were given the bottled water by the manufacturer, but people put the connection of bottled water and athletes together and you have your connector.  In this case, the connectors hit a variety of circles and probably not even very aware that they were doing it.

Success and now everyone "needs" bottled water.  They even allow kids to drag it around from class to class in schools.  We wouldn't want them to become dehydrated (part of the salesman's pitch). 

You can come up with any type of idea or product and you will see this 3 legged approach work most every time.  Those that fail are missing one of those legs. 

Seems to me that we're missing one of those connectors.  Without one, you'll only keep on preaching to the choir.   ;)
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

jim king

Ron:
You cannot even imagine how your comment is a mirror image of what I have gone thru to get the business to where it is.  It is like you lived here and watched the novel unfold step by step over the years.  We started in a carport years ago and now it is getting to the point where it is to big and to easy to be fun. 
As we dont sell anything on our website and it is only informative and being changed I think it should be ok to post the site for you to have a look at what we are doing.  Our next expansion will be done by the end of this year but we will start updating the web site as soon as possible.

When you open the site the first page rolls over slowly but the last photo is of the monkey that was the first wild animal rescued by my wife here in Peru.
www.exoticwoodworld.com

I am still thinking about the helping of a couple of local people here and the best method.

Here is another website you might enjoy, it is the local Gringo newspaper.
http://www.iquitostimes.com/

TexasTimbers

These are good and noble ideas, but remember fellas, the FIRST step in implementing any plan which must involve government cooperation, is always grooming someone in power. In order for any plan to work which involves stateside help, Jim King must first identify the one or two individuals in governemnt who have the authority and political power to implement a plan, and then he must "educate and donate". Unfortunately money is what drives politics and I am sure it is no different in the Amazon than in D.C. and until the key cog in the government is groomed, no amount of planning or well-wishing will make a difference.
Jim, it might be that the key player is not even a government official but someone off your radar screen who actually has the power to pull the strings. I think alot more detective work will have to be done before you guys can start talking nuts and bolts and saw blades.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

jim king

kevjay:
I agree with your sentiments.  In the next couple of days the head of the DNR will be at my house to discuss this and how it could be put together here in a form of international cooperation with appropriate planning and order.

The DNR here is woefully under funded and as an example they are turning the animal rescue program of all black market confiscated animals for Loreto State which is about the size of Minnesota to my wife.  The costs fall on us but it is also good advertising  to adopt a program that the Govt failed at.  Plus it is always good in these places when the Govt. owes you one even if you have to pay for what they "give" you.

A bit more time and I will have a route layed out.

TexasTimbers

It sounds like you have a real handle on it Jim. I visited your website since making that post.

I am a curious cat and could not help but wonder how you came to be there. Was wondering if a brief history could be shared. ??? If not that's cool just make something up. ;)

Reason I ask is an operation like yours is often not by design, but just sort of falls into your lap or you are kind of inexorably moved in that direction by a long series of otherwise unrelated events until whammo! you find yourself making widgets when your plan had been to sell crab pots so to speak.
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

TexasTimbers

Thanks Jeff, that was very interesting. Just what I wanted to know.  :)
The oil is all in Texas, but the dipsticks are in D.C.

jim king

This is a bit off theme but as  I mentioned above that we were taking the animal rescue center in hand this is our newest boarder.  This is a Huapo Monkey. The girl holding him has finished high school and is going away to the University and cannot keep him. She has had him 7 years and now and he will be coming to live with us. This is not a real common species so I thought it may be interesting to everyone.




crtreedude

Very interesting Jim.

Our approach has been to grow trees for investors - this produces money to pay for workers - lots of workers who do better than they would have if they had their own land. Because of our economy of scale - we can pay for the fees, build kilns, buy sawmills, etc.

Our workers have health coverage, retirement, disability, etc. And we have lots of people who want to work for us. A finca converted from cows to reforestation employees three times as many people by my calculations - and less dangerous work too.

The issue is of course that if you don't have some system of checking, everything will be gone. Also, there is the law of unintential consequeces. Often, when a ruling first is put in, there is a wave of poaching because everyone knows that there might be a law, but no money for inforcement - so they will go ahead and cut whatever they can, as soon as they can.

The only thing that works for the long term is that the forest works for a living - make it worth more alive than dead and there will be forests.
So, how did I end up here anyway?

jim king

ctreedude:  My approach here is different as we have virtually no area to reforest unless we leveled the city.  We as a company own large tracts of land but are working with the small land holders to teach them that they have a valuable resource growing on thier land and not to make charcoal out of it.

The typical family we have working used to earn in the $20 to $30 a month range making charcoal which is one of the worst jobs in the world that I have ever seen.  Now we obtain for them the permission to cut trees legally on thier land and we buy the selected species we want.  Our logging is all done in the cave man style you have seen in some of my photos but leaves the forest in fine condition and provides jobs.  The families that were making $20 to $30 a month now earn many months $1000 .  It has been a major change in thier life.

You may have seen that some of the forum members would like to help the people but this will wait until one of the forum members who is an expert in logging methods comes down to do a study on what we are doing chainsaw logging cave man style as to compared to logging with skidders.  I would like to be able to say that we can back up the fact that we are doing the right thing under the circumstances we have.


crtreedude

Jim,

One of the more difficult things here is something I have heard called the island mentality. It is hard to get people to plan because they are used to picking thing off the trees. Of course, you might say we aren't much better in the North since we often don't worry if there will be anything left in the future.

Yes, I have heard charcoal is a terrible job - pretty much considered one of the worst jobs possible.
So, how did I end up here anyway?

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