The Forestry Forum

Work began in May this year clearing areas and building roads onto the back bone of Mars Hill.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_Windmills1.jpg)

Cranes have been erected on site to begin building the windmills.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_Windmills2.jpg)

You can see 3 cranes working and 3 existing TV/Radio towers.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_Windmills3.jpg)

A couple of the windmill columns are up. More photos to come as progress continues. They say there will be power running through the lines by month end.

Have they caught the people who stole the wire yet?

Probably got stolen for the copper, eh? NB Powere has had theives steal wire this summer in NB also. I hadn't heard about them stealing wire from the windmill project. Apparently the wiring are going to be run underground. Actually, I think they said most of that work is already complete.

We went around the mountain last sunday and one house had a sign out by the road 'Honk if you hate the windmills'. Always someone downing something.  ::)

The Bangor daily news online reported 30 thousand dollars worth of copper wire got stolen
from a storage unit about 3 weeks ago.  I guess they haven't tried to sell to the scrap man yet.

We were stopped outside of Montreal Central Station last monday for an hour. Someone stole some wire that had been laid above ground for the signals.it shut the whole place down for quite a while.

A month or so back a guy was highly electrofied, almost killed because he was cutting LIVE wires to steal the copper ;) I think he may get a DARWIN award soon.   It was reported on the tv news & that he survived, but had lost parts of himself such as hands & feet from the electrocution as well as perminate brain damage, which aparently he had already?

Mark M

My next door neighbor is a project manager on a couple of windmill projects.  My BIL did an article for his construction magazine and mentioned the following:

"The 127 turbine towers stand 250 feet high, and the blades are 130 feet long.  The nacelle and hub combination weighs 90 tons and each of the three blades adds another 7 tons.  The foundation is a 14-foot-diameter column of post-tentioned concrete set in solid rock from 25 to 32 feet deep, depending on ground conditions.  Amazing stuff."

He has finished one project near Walla Walla, Washington and is nearing completion on the second one near Ellensburg, Washington.  He mentioned that Modern Marvel is coming out to film this month for a future TV show.

I've seen a pile of blades being transported this year.
Was seeing caravans of them in OH last spring.

Last year I flew out to San Diego and it was amazing to see those windmills from that high up.  Supposedly they're a bird cuisinart. 

Hey, Modern Marvels on the History Channel has already been showing those windmills.  I never would have imagined that they were so huge, nor that they were so productive, nor that we have been so slow to get with the wind program!

Imagine what last year's money spent in Afghanistan and Iraq could have done, if put into wind and solar and superconductivity in the U.S. of A.!  Well, maybe next year, huh?

Phil L.

Hopefully,  we have enough windmills going up to give OPEC the Dang shivers.
smiley_furious
Alternative energy has to be our future.
Otherwise, they'll have us over the barrel like they do now.

I always like how the naysayers say how the return on investment does not justify the projects but when the price of fuel rises high they holler that we should have done it years ago.  If it did not pay then why are there so many projects?  Besides I like the benefits for the enviroment.  They argue about the birds killed by the turbine blades but how about the damage from the pollution from the power plants and the birds killed by the power lines.  We find dead birds under the power lines every year here.

Doug

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_Windmills4.jpg)

Another windmill going up.

i like all of the alternative energy ideas.  wind, solar, tidal, whatever will work.  we're in the beginning, we look back and laugh at the commodore 64, but it was a big deal in the day!

I say we cut the lines to the nay sayers houses.  you wanna play, you gotta pay somewhere.

Neighbor tells me the new ones don't kill birds like the old ones did, apparently because of the size.  Big enough that they are able to see and avoid them.

Out in west Texas, we've had windmills for miles far as one can see for several years

Down here, they have been going into people's attics (where they can gain outside access through eaves, gable ends, etc) and taking wiring and out of outside air conditioning/heating units. 

Yep, there's been a few trying to get 'big' wire who haven't fared too well.   :o

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_Windmills5.jpg)

The first turbine up, no propellers yet.

How many are there going to be?

I'm all for consevation, but I'd be willing to lose an occasional bird around my area to get my electric bill down.   ;)

I know that ain't politically correct, but we live in an area where the electric competition really don't matter much as there is none.  We've even went as far as looking at the personal windmills and solar to help defray some of the costs and to act as a backup.  We have frequent outages as we are rural and high winds tend to knock down trees, which I get to saw. 8)   And some genious engineer decided to build a relay station near a local stream that tends to flood. 

These alternatives are really becoming more affordable and anything you put back into the grid, the local electric companies got to pay for it. Now that part, I really like.  8)  Get money from the electric company for electric.

Quote from: Onthesauk on October 07, 2006, 11:07:21 AM
Neighbor tells me the new ones don't kill birds like the old ones did, apparently because of the size.  Big enough that they are able to see and avoid them.

28 I think.

Here is a Blog with photos. I've checked a Boston news site and the info there is the same.

Have any of you seen some of the big farms they are building?  Over a hundred wind mills ,  There is one in Loweville New York and we saw one big one in Pa.  They dominate the landscape and ruin the view for miles.  They don't build them things in the valleys.
  I am not against wind power, but there are some serious down sides to an area not the least of which is decreased property values.  Several towns in our area have put moratoriums in place to slow down development of wind farms while they study the long term consequences to the area.
  I dont want to start a war here, just saying that wind energy ain't free. Everything comes with a trade off.

 That subject came up in our county. There was a lot of people at the meetings who were on both sides of the issue. There are several towers within 50 miles of us. I visited the towers as I was/am interested in signing a lease. The towers to me look kind of cool, and the noise wasn't any worse than the I-75 expressway and barking dogs near the tower! I wonder, if when those big, blue Harvestor silo's first came out they were considered to be an eyesore? After all the debate at the township and county meetings, wind towers were approved. I contacted the developer to sign up. They weren't interrested in our area anymore due to the previous controversy.

I think the windmills are beautiful against the horizon. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. We have a few scattered around Iowa.Some towns are building them as a energy money saver. Many schools use the power and sell the excess back to the eletric company; I would think the school children could learn a great deal from these projects. I have looked into one for our farm, but the cost is still too prohibitive.

In Germany you would see them up on the hills along the freeways. They were very pretty.

  A few is one thing, a hundred things twice as tall as any thing else on top of a ring of hills is something else I belive. 

Would you be happier with one nuke plant within sight ???

Yes - But I grew up on nuclear powered submarines. :D :D :D

Bruce/subsailor

 :D :D :D :D

Or a nuke waste dump .

Nuke plant = nuke waste dump somewhere

I once traveled through a pass in Colifornia on my way to Joshua Tree.  the pass was filled with hundreds of wind machines.  Reminded me of the plastic windmills we used to plant in the lawn when I was a kid younger.

It was actually quite serene and beautiful, like a Dali painting.

 I'll go with the windmills as long as they don't go crazy with them. 1 bunch every 20 miles seems ok. I wouldn't want to hear a noisy one though.
Dan

How about those windmills out east that got the axe because they were going to ruin the view for the rich folks as they took their boats out to sea.  I got a person I do business with that was complaning about how he couldn't afford to drive up from Chicago anymore because of the gas prices to stay at his 5000 square foot summer home on the lake.  ::) 

Saw a cartoon several years ago. Should have kept it but didn't. The activists youngster with a sign "No more Nukes" returned home and said "We made them close it down." He was speaking to his mother who sat there with a candle for light. Strange how so many people have that same mentality.

I live about ten miles from the windmills at Lowville. I always think of dancers or sword fighters when I see them. They are emence (sp ) huge. It has been a large tourism draw for the last two years as they were being built. Many roads on the hill only saw a few hunters or loggers and snowsledders were as busy as the state highway as we all had to see what was going on. The tax advantages tothe Townships County and School have been tremendous. On Town ship had a budjet of a few hundred dollars now has three times the income that it had. The project owners have donated to several worthwhile causes.  Link to the windmills
     http://www.mapleridgewind.com/involved.htm
                         Junkyard

Usually these windmills generate 2 megawatts of power.  Very cool but like my dad says you need wind.  I heard a guy had one on washingtons coast and was producing power for all his neighbors. He was generating about 150 kilowatts.  The pud came forward and said you shut down the mill and you can have power for life.  Guess what happened to the people around him.  I also heard another story from my readings on the web a guy in iowa built one and the county tried to tax him on the space in front of the propellers wind ect.. No joke.  My dad has a plant and they tried to put a meter on the thing and tax him for how much he was producing.  Talk about total control some of these idiots try and do. And they live in the city in little apartments where the solution is a phone call or a flip of the switch. 

Windmill towers started going up this summer in our area. :P

http://www.aimpowergen.com/projects_onshore.html

Ok, being a scatter brain this windmill discussion got me researching which in turn has caused me to waste a good portion of my day.  My limited research has indicated a couple of things.

First of all Wind turbines are not cheap.

Second, although not cheap they will pay for themselves after 6-15 years of service.

Which leads me to the important question.  Any of you guys ever built a windmill or know someone who did?  I mean they can't be that complicated can they?  If a guy can build his own sawmill you would think he could figure out how to build a wind turbine couldn't he?

I think someone here posted this link a month or two ago.  I saved it and dug around a bit.  These guys are really serious about it and seem to know what they are doing.

     http://www.otherpower.com/

I built a Savonious rotor from three thirty gallon drums. never didfigure out the controls to automaticaly turn on and off the alternator when the wind started and stopped. so it ended up in the junk. It had a lot of power but turned real slow. Lower bearing was a front hub from a old Rambler with wheel and tire. Belt drive from tire to altenator.
                   Junkyard

  Like this   ??? ???

look here (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=4571.0)

More progress ...

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_Windmills-006.jpg)


A closer look..

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_Windmills-007.jpg)

In some of my more recent readings, I remember reading several articles about the newer wind mills.  The airfoils are much more efficient, much quieter and by turning slower you have much less bird and bat strikes.

Bruce

This is the scene on the hill after this week.



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_Windmills.jpg)

Two mills are erected on the far right and a third one to their left has the turbine up.

Who can afford the utilty bills these days?  Not me, that's for sure.   ??? :P

  I was reading a guide book on solar energy the other night.  I came across a section on small wind generators.  With this guide I also have an old pricing list for the solar and wind generator systems.  The list has the Canadian prices for the year 2000.

  The complete kits for these wind generators are or seem to be affordable.

    Rutland 913   rated power- 90 watts @32 kph (22mph)
                         Blade Diam.-  91 cm  (36 in.)
                         Weight-          13 kg (28.6 lbs.)

                                 Price- $1295.00 Cdn


    Windseeker 503 :  Features high density magnets for improved power output, a self furling mechanism to protect the wind generator in high winds, a built in charge regulator, and a durable powder coated finish.  Start-up speed is as low as 12 kph (7.4 mph).  It has a balanced three blade rotor for smooth and quiet operation and mounts on a 2" Shedule 40 pipe.  12 and 24 volt models available.  Two year warranty.               Rated Power- 500 watts @ 45 kph (28 mph)
                              Blade Diam.-  153 cm (60 in.)
                              Weight-          9.1 kg (20 lbs)
                       
                               Price- $1945 Cdn

These kits and prices could allow one to generate enough power for himself very easily.  If any of you would like more info I have the resources to get you started.

Brad.

Since march 2006, I work for G.E. as a technical advisor on 1.5 mgw wind turbine construction project. I worked in Oregon and in Alberta. These were 80 meters tower. Of course, promotor do lot of wind testing before deciding where to install them. They cost more than one million a piece ans are huge. Blade length 37 meter. Nacelle weight(including generator and transmission)  is about 115000 pounds. Lots of electronic. it is said that in US one will generate a profit of more than $200000. annually. And pollution is zero. In Alberta on some site, after installation is done all the road are retuned to field and grass go to the base of tower. In Tehachappi California there are more than 4000 of them. This summer I was at the office with 8 turbine running by a 25 km/h wind and all of them in a 300 ft range and all together they made less noise than just one fan that my neighbor has in its farm wich is 300 ft from my house. I hope that New Brunswick will go with wind  for its green energy and maybe I can go work there.

Hmmm. $1295 Cdn for a 90 watt generator. That would power a 60 watt light bulb with enough leftover for half your neighbor's bulb. 'Course with the wind blowing at 22 mph, maybe you should save it for the heater this winter. I guess the alternative would be to start your own wind farm. 40 of them around the yard ought to cover most of your load.  ;)

The Mars Hill project will be able to provide power to 45,000 homes.! 8)

http://www.bangornews.com/news/t/aroostook.aspx?articleid=142393&zoneid=175

I noticed today that some of the finished mills are turning. There is a 30 MPH wind or so. They aren't turning very fast, it's snail's pace. Suppose to get up to 60 MPH wind tonight. I think they have another 18 or so to erect from what I can see. Certainly not going to be done the end of the month as predicted. Beginning to rain now.

I have been trying to keep an eye on the progress as well. We were planning a hike up there last weekend but fell through due to lack of a babysitter. They sure are massive. Gets my motor going again to build my own, like the ones on otherpower.com. Now that I operate a plasma cutter I could very easily cut out the parts for the rotors and such. Was speaking with my uncle tonight that has a nice woodworking shop, he would like to help build a couple of windmill blades. Pretty cool stuff indeed.

And yes, I am still alive, just not online much with dialup..ughh!

Danny, all I got is dialup to. I can look up at'em from my woodlot or on the drive up from the house.  8)

I am going to have to look you up sometime, get together for a coffee. I am in Simonds now near Bubar's truck junk yard if you know where that is. 10 - 15 mins would put me in Centerville.

Yeah, I did some thinning for Gregg B, and he was farming some of my dad's old farm up by my woodlot.

Think I've heard, because of their size, they don't appear to be turning very fast.  But out at the tip they will reach 200 mph!

With the wind and snow coming down today, I can't see nut'n.  ::) The temps have dropped almost 8 F since this am. If I could see them, I'de get an idea of their speed, versus a day with a light breeze. This morning I could see stars. Lovely weather we got all the sudden.  :-\

I swear that frig'n mountain messes with our weather here. I can see clear blue sky out past Mars Hill and where I'm at is a big dark storm system. It is beginning to pass now though. No accumulation of snow.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_Windmills-008.jpg)

Before the storm


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_Windmills-010.jpg)

During the storm

It seems the windmills are blowing in bad weather.I'd complain :P

After the storm passed I took some snaps from the 'Klondike' farm.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_Windmills-011.jpg)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_Windmills-013.jpg)

One correction to the Bangornew article. The hub is not made of fiberglass but is made of cast iron and is partly covered by fiberglass wich support the three entry hatches and the three guard rails and the nose cone.

Interesting news article about wind power today. Alberta has limited them to 900 mw capacity because of  doubts about the ability to quickly ramp up the grid if the wind dies during peak demand. There are also concerns about too much power during strong winds and low demand although I fail to see this issue. No different than a conventional generator running with no load.

Hey swamp are those things spinning yet? Planning on going up there today to see them with a friend of mine.. if we can see them for fog that is...

Probably too late for an answer. Had to go get a new motor for the furnace fan.  ::) But, the windmills are spinning, but very slow. Hardly a breath of air today. They have made some good progress this past week and I was going to take a snap yesterday while the sun was shining. Won't see the sun for another week now.  ::) Kinda foggy today on the hills, comes and goes.

This is a scene from Oklahoma.
We also saw where they were getting ready to install a bunch more windmills, but I forgot to get pics of that. ::)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10577/DSCF1549.JPG)

Yeah they look pretty much like the model we have here. I would think Oklahoma would have all kinds of wind farms. Big open country, no hills and trees in the way. ;)

These are on/being installed on a large ridge.

Hey Swamp, this is the windmill that they have at the new Forestry place there in Centerville. www.bergey.com  (http://www.bergey.com) They are about $45,000 here. They also make a small 1000 watt 24v mill which would be good for a camp or something.

We were up last weekend to see but the fog was too thick. We seen one blade there for about 10 seconds..hehe

More Progress

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_windmills-014.jpg)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_windmills-015.jpg)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_windmills-016.jpg)

Took the pictures this morning behind the house off the road.

Hey Danny, I was wondering if you'de be able to see anything.  ;D :D

The windmill looks just like that one as you say at DNR. I didn't realize it was that may Kwatts though. I've heard from second hand news that a lot of the Rangers have been grumbling about it. Don't know why. Always someone complaining eh? ;)

I had a note last night from my neighbor who builds these wind farms.  Said that in the storm that blew through Western Washingington this last Wednesday, they clocked winds of 105 MPH at their site West of Ellensberg.  They are designed to shut themselves down in higher winds to prevent damage.

Dan/Swamp et. al. How about a show & tell tour @ Mars Hill ? Some of us are 'nearby'--Ellsworth. Good chance to meet and lunch.
We saw the Quebec windfarm on the St Lawrence last August from the boat (doing a circumnavigation of New England called the Downeast Circle Route). This is one of those "experimental" setups sponsored by the Quebec govn't including a highly engineered horizontal wind turbine. It looked like there was a large variety of turbines in operation.
email me off forum. Give some days/times options. smiley_blue_bounce

logbutcher, have you been up this way before? Up to Bangor, zip up to Houltan on the I95. Then up the Route 1 north and you can't miss it. There's a nice little restaurant at Smyrna Mills, just 10 miles from Houltan, on the right hand side of I95. Or a second option is to carry on the I95 to the Woodstock customs, go into Woodstock. Could eat there or scoot on up to Centreville (Bridgewater Maine exit - onto route 110) from Woodstock on route 2 and eat at GrandMa's Restaurant. Then carry on up the 110 for 3 miles, take a 4 mile detour up my way and go to the end of the road and see the mountain. Or if you go north from Houltan, up to Mars Hill you can exit route 1 near Bridgewater, by Smith's Truck Stop, and head over to the East Blaine Road and ride around the base of the mountain and hit Route 1 at Mars Hill, go south through town and back toward Houltan. Your looking at a 3 hour drive one way.

Give it a few days to cogitate. Also, Danny might not see this until the weekend, cause he's in the welding shop all week. Maybe he'd like to hook up to. We can hammer out the details in email.  ;)

PS. I won't be much at telling windmill theory/engineering because you'll be able to see as much going on as I'de be able to tell.  ;)

Sounds like a plan. I'm around since our woodlands here are too soft and wet to work...it's like spring   :o

It was a cold fog here all day, never got above 32 F. Was forecasted to get to 48.   Here it is late and it's still 30 F. Was up to 'The Falls' and the sun was shining and warmer. Couldn't see any windmills today. ::)

If someone is interested, I have lot of pictures of  any component and complete turbine of thes GE 1.5 MW.

Busk, Do you have an installed system?

Our son is involved with Wind Energy and just showed me this web site.  It is designed for kids, but seems to have a lot of information for adults as well.  I hope I don't offend anyone with this low level introduction, but he said it was very well done.

Wind Energy Explained (http://www.windpower.org/en/kids/index.htm)

Mooseherder do you mean if I have photos of a complete unit?

Wesdor this site is very well done. Altough different turbine sizes or brands have different components, the basic of fonctionning is the same.

Read in the paper about a new design for wind power.  It will be able to turn at lower wind speeds, and is less costly than the fan type of design.  Here's what they look like:

http://windausenergy.com/

They area about 1/3 the cost of the big fans, they don't need cranes to erect them, which saves road building expenses.  There are no problems with bird kills or noise.  Seems like a good design.

They are putting some of the bigger ones up in NY.  They also have some smaller ones to go for home use and they quoted around $1500 in the paper.

Ron, That looks very interesting. Thanks for the link.

According to the Presque Isle news tonight, the new windmill farm on Mars Hill will be undergoing testing soon. They will be turning them on to see if they are functioning properly. Apparently, they have not been turned on at this point, so what I have been seeing as spinning windmills was just free spinning and not power generation. They have 8 more to complete assembly on, up on the north end.

It's been so foggy and uncooperative weather, so I haven't even contacted logbutcher yet for a visit. I haven't even been able to see the neighbor's house all week. With it getting close to Christmas, I guess it'll have to wait 'til the new year.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13635/whatsit.jpg)
Swampdonkey. Look Familiar? ;D

Mooseherder, where and when? You where up to Maine this summer/fall weren't you hunting? Can't say it looks familiar, other than the windmill blade. ;D

yep, I was there 3 times, may, july and sept. But not for this picture or hunting.
Did get a couple hours of fishing in though. ;D
We kinda have working vacations along with a few trail rides. ;)
The Pic is from a club ride from VB to Mars Hill. I wasn't there for it. It is a club pic I pay dues to.

Well it sure is a good part of the globe to spend vacation time, that's for sure.

I gotta get me one of them working vacation type jobs. ;D :D :D

I Love your part of the globe.  8)

Mars Hill site Windmill Blade.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13635/blade.jpg)

Out on the interstate today and saw a convoy of 18 wheelers headed north from the gulf.  Each truck had two blades loaded on.  Looked like the blades were about 80' long.  They were headed for a wind farm in north Missouri (I think). 

I think it's interesting the John Deere is providing a lot of the investment capital.  Construction has revitalized a couple of towns already.

Here is a web cam of our wind mills. ;D

http://www.mainewind.org/


The site says those windmills are 389 feet tall. I assume with a blade on vertical, not the tower.

The only problem with wind is the polution it causes! (what is he crazy?)
Yes it is true, wind is not something you can dam up and apply as needed (duh!) it comes and goes and when it isn't going you need a back up to handle the demand. gues what is the back up? Desiel generators! so, so much for that "clean energy" it reduces our need for oil sometimes, but not on a regular basis, in much of the country wind will be dead right at peak AC season, so no help there.
  Hydro dams can pump water back up above the dam at night with the electricity they make, nuke plants turn up the steam when needed, biomass plants the same.
   Wind caused a big problem this past spring in Washington state, the rivers were in flood, the wind was steady and strong so the windmills were cranking, the dams had to spill water due to the flood and the fact that the hydro generators were off, until the water started to wash away the sand that Salmon and other animals need, then they opened up the hydro turbines and fried the grid. It took weeks to replace all the transformers that burned out from excessive voltage, not to mention the damage to houses and industry from fried motors, capacitors etc.
I'll take a nuke plant any day, I grew up within the ten mile radius of Seabrook (NH) and if the nuke wenies hadn't gotten Carter to ban reprocessing our used fuel like france does we wouldn't have the problem with storage of spent fuel. There would be a fraction of the waste we have now and it could be centraly stored much easier. Like France Does!
( I can't believe the french are ahead of us here !!!)

I read an article the other day where they can now use the wind to supply energy to compress air, which is stored in an underground cavern ,IE; used oil well, caves, as such. then when they need the energy and there is no wind they bring the air back up out of the ground, warm it up, and run turbines, to produce electricity. new ideas coming online all the time.

Quote from: Stephen1 on February 02, 2009, 01:13:50 PM
I read an article the other day where they can now use the wind to supply energy to compress air, which is stored in an underground cavern ,IE; used oil well, caves, as such. then when they need the energy and there is no wind they bring the air back up out of the ground, warm it up, and run turbines, to produce electricity. new ideas coming online all the time.

I would not hold my breath waiting for that idea to work. Just imagine investing that kind of energy into hot air and then finding you have a leak and you don't know where your energy/money is going and worst of all you can't stop it from disappearing in the wind. Plus it may well be contaminated when you get it back.

Quote from: rowerwet on February 01, 2009, 05:23:04 PM
Yes it is true, wind is not something you can dam up and apply as needed (duh!)

The wind can be dammed up, it's called a battery bank. They are used to store the energy, when the wind isn't blowing, you draw from the battery bank.

Wind alone is not the solution, niether is solar, nukes, or biomass...it will take a combination of all to get us where we need to be. (energy independent, if there is such a thing)

As for the damage done in your statement, seems like some of the engineers should have forseen this issue and put safe guards in place. Maybe they did and someone forgot to flip the right switches.

They have a system called pumped storage. You pump water up a hill and release it when you need extra energy. It is a proven tech. We have had one in our county for about 35 years.  So you can store wind energy.

Stonebroke

Quote from: rowerwet on February 01, 2009, 05:23:04 PM
   Wind caused a big problem this past spring in Washington state, the rivers were in flood, the wind was steady and strong so the windmills were cranking, the dams had to spill water due to the flood and the fact that the hydro generators were off, until the water started to wash away the sand that Salmon and other animals need, then they opened up the hydro turbines and fried the grid. It took weeks to replace all the transformers that burned out from excessive voltage, not to mention the damage to houses and industry from fried motors, capacitors etc.

I live in WA state and I heard nothing about this. Plus the amount of wind energy generated in this state is minuscule compared to the hydroelectric. How could the 5% wind capacity overwhelm the 50% hydro capacity? We also run coal plants for electricity and they can be curtailed. I don't believe this happened. Joe

Quote from: rowerwet on February 01, 2009, 05:23:04 PM
   Wind caused a big problem this past spring in Washington state, the rivers were in flood, the wind was steady and strong so the windmills were cranking, the dams had to spill water due to the flood and the fact that the hydro generators were off, until the water started to wash away the sand that Salmon and other animals need, then they opened up the hydro turbines and fried the grid. It took weeks to replace all the transformers that burned out from excessive voltage, not to mention the damage to houses and industry from fried motors, capacitors etc.

I live in Washington state also, and never heard of this either. In my far-western Washington state county, we are 83% powered by hydro. With all the grids interconnected, I would think the utilities here could sell power to other parts of the country or Canada if and when there is an excess, as in the case you stated...

-N.

http://md10.embarq.synacor.com/zimbra/mail#70

U.S. Wind Power Capacity Vaults to Top Spot due to Rapid Growth
The U.S. wind energy industry shattered all previous records in 2008, installing 8,358 megawatts (MW) of new generating capacity and placing the United States above all other nations in terms of installed wind power capacity. U.S. wind capacity increased by 50%, bringing it to a total of 25,170 MW, according to the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA).

They've been putting up 100's of windmills in S.E. WI... not concentrated on a farm like you would imagine (like rows of corn) but rather spread out over several 100 sq. miles. Yes, while they do tend be rather dominating over the landscape they aren't the eyesore that their opponents claim... they actually are quite graceful and almost seem to havesomewhat of a soothing effect... definitely much nicer than any coal or even gas fired plant. I've been right up next to the ones along Hwy. 41 and the noise from the freeway was much worse. It's just another case of the NIMBY's... they like to claim these things kill too many birds... well I can tell you there's too many Canada geese around here anyway and if you ask me any goose that's stupid enough to fly into a 180'(?) windmill blade spinning at 6-10 RPM probably deserves to die anyway. The speed at which they turn is governed by the blades and they actually shutdown in winds above a certain velocity (around 50 mph, I believe).

What I really get a kick out of is the power companies have a program where you can pay an extra fee to buy this green energy at different levels per month (25.00, 50.00, 100.00).... like if I do that then my power is going to come right from those windmills(?)... and I s'pose that means that the people who are opposed won't get to share in any of this electricity. Come on, gimme a break, that power has to be going right into the grid to be distributed throughout the system.

I'm all for 'green' energy and I could be wrong about all this but it sure seems to me like the utilities (and probably the government) are just making this another money making racket.   

SwampDonkey:
I can see your house from here! :D


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11820/Centerville.jpg)

I climbed to the top of turbine 9 on Mars Hill today. You can see my safety line hooked off on the nacelle hook rail in the lower center and a bit of one of the turbine blades in the upper right. If my geography is correct, this picture is looking roughly in the direction of Centreville, NB.

Yeah, that first road there is the East Blaine Road in Maine. About dead centre is dad's old farm on the "Klondike" and off at 2 0'clock from the field is my woodlot. You must be counting from the north end. ;D My place is in view but you need to climb back up and zoom a little more for detail. :D :D :D It's more under the nose cone.

Basically, your looking at Upper Knoxford and Upper Royalton. The village of Centreville is about 8 miles below those upper fields behind a big hill. Everything looks flat from up there. :D :D

Ok Brad that just gives me the willies!

Of course I get a nose bleed working over 10' off the ground. :D

Me too Norm.
I am deathly afraid of heights but didn't want to be sitting in a nursing home someday regreting that I never tried the climb. The ladder is inside the column with floors every 70 feet. I climbed each section staring straight ahead at the opposite wall and never once looked down. Once in the nacelle, you feel like you are in a room, so all is well except for a gentle sway from time to time. It was a pretty calm day though, that's why they were willing to take the unit off line and let us climb it. I was strangely at ease up top although I didn't look straight over the edge, only off into the horizon. I didn't find the kahonas to stand up and am already kicking myself for that but I at least conquered my fear enough to get there.

Brad, is that paved up there or just crushed stone?

I get the willies just climbing 30 feet up the roof to the flu. :D The one time I did it was last fall removing honeycomb on the inside of the flu from them darn honeybees. Who would ever imagine them things going 40 feet (from basement) in the air to build a hive and no roof over it. ::)

Why the heck were you up there?  I too remember those fields when I was just a pup.   I am sure SD can tell me where my Grandpa's farm was.  Been too long for me to remember the exact coordinates.

Aerial view video using Google Maps and Maptitude.

http://youtu.be/1ikSEIj1gJI

Areal view at 2500 feet.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/Windmill-aerial.jpg)

Quote from: SwampDonkey on June 11, 2010, 06:38:09 PM
Brad, is that paved up there or just crushed stone?

SD,
I didn't see this question back when it was posted.
The road is gravel, much of it is just ground up stone from blasting out the rock for the turbine bases.
At least the gravel at Mars Hill is a little rounded. Our Stetson Mtn site (Danforth) has roads made of sharp stone...very rare not to go the full length of that road and not get a slashed tire!
Also, per an earlier question, yes, the Mars Hill turbines are numbered from north to south.
I will be there Monday. Need to check the integrity of the guy anchors on the lattice MET towers for corrosion due to stray ground current.

Yes I know what that sharp shale can do to 4 and 6 ply tires. One reason for 10 ply on my woods truck. ;D

Play safe up there. ;)

Quote from: SawDust_Studios on October 10, 2006, 11:03:33 PM
I'm all for consevation, but I'd be willing to lose an occasional bird around my area to get my electric bill down.   ;)

These alternatives are really becoming more affordable and anything you put back into the grid, the local electric companies got to pay for it. Now that part, I really like.  8)  Get money from the electric company for electric.

Your electric bill and tax bill go up with wind turbines.  It's an expensive, inefficient way to produce electricity.  The only reason ANY turbine is built is because of politics.  The so-called alternative are not affordable, unless you think paying double(wind) to three to four(solar) time your current electric bill is affordable. 

If an engineer brought up the idea of wind turbines to produce power for our grid 40 years ago, he would have been laughed out of the room for such a silly idea.  But now, many of the grids are in on it.  It is us consumers, taxpayers, citizens, and lovers of the environment that pay the price for it.  The politicians get both money and votes out of it. 

It takes about 2,000 turbines to replace on very small natural gas plant.  Or one VERY, VERY small coal mine could produce enough coal to do so.  Actually strike that, even with the 2,000 turbines you need the coal or gas plant.  It would take 5,000 turbines to produce the same amt of energy the nuclear plant produces that runs this laptop.  And you still need the nuclear plant.

It's complicated, that's why very few people understand it, and it sounds like a good idea, a sure win.  It's a sure loser for everyone but the politicians and the investors. 

Have to disagree a bit on the "totally impractical" summation. NZ currently generates about 5% of it's power from ~450 wind turbines and is looking to increase that to ~20% in the future. Installed turbines are rated for ~650 mW, and achieve 30-50% capacity depending on the site. Now this may be a special case, lots of wind, lots of hydro power to back up the turbines etc.

Now it's certainly not practical in every situation, but those generators have been built as commercial undertakings, to make money for the power companies. Sure they are rather expensive to build, but the operating cost are relatively low, and hence the are economically feasible.

Ian

>Sure they are rather expensive to build, but the operating cost are relatively low, and hence the are economically feasible.

Okay.  Let's say you spend $60/week on gasoline.  (being a logger it is probably much, much more).  But how about I try to save you some money.  At the beginning of the year you just give me $5,000 and then you can go and fill up every week for $1.  Just think, you'll be saving $59/week. 

Wind turbines are nonsense and expensive to power a grid.  The more you look into it, the more you will find that to be true.  In every country with high wind/solar generation there are high electricity costs to go with it.  They save us absolutely nothing and destroy the landscape.  They are waste of our resources of metal and concrete to build the mammoth structures.  Also, because of their highly variable output, it is quite debatable whether they even save us anything at all in fossil fuel use. 

Here is a link to the wind output in Ireland, a windy island.  The total output can vary by a large percent in just a few hours or less. This is true wherever they are found.
http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/windgeneration/

Anyone who is for the rich getting richer, the poor getting poorer, politicians making money and re-elected, our environment being destroyed (think sacrificed), our grids being de-stabilized - then you should be all for them.

Just like logging is a dirty, destructive business in some regards, in supplying necessary wood products, so is creating electricity for our society.  Of course the ring-leaders of this scam, only care about lining their own pockets and they are for us citizens having less money, harder lives and slowing down human progress.  Kind of funny that their access to what most of consider the good things in life and prosperity is never halted. 

Wind and Solar are on par, they BOTH work part of the time...    Electricity needs to flow ALL of the time so when wind is blowing or sun shining the power plants (Coal Nuke Nat Ga are running) they are still burning just about as much as if they were powering EVERYTHING and costs are ABOUT THE SAME to keep them idling for when the Sun/Wind is not blowing.    Waste of $ for sure on these grand scales.

Mark

That may be why NZ is a different case. The majority of our power is from hydroelectric, which is also a variable supply. But it's a controlled variable. If the wind isn't blowing, you can drain down the storage lakes and run the hydro stations at full output (for a while) When the wind is blowing,, shut down the hydro, and store the water (power) for later. We do also have a handful of coal or gas stations as well.

I agree the problem is the inconsistent supply. You either need backup or storage, both of which are expensive.

But another place where it's becoming practical is remote Pacific Islands. Most have diesel generators at the moment (no nat gas or coal) That IS probably the most expensive (commercial) way to generate power, especially once you ship the diesel to the middle of nowhere. They still end up keeping the generators, but hopefully only using them ~10% of the time.

Trying to stay non political on this subject and be objective without giving offense...   Wind power is great if the embodied energy in the project does not exceed the net output of the turbine during its lifecycle.  Wind turbines located on windswept plains, offshore, or on coastal regions make a lot of sense and can be big producers.

Wind turbines located along mountain ridgelines can be giant energy suckers which sometimes produce power but would seldom be built if it wasn't for government regulations and incentive programs. Of course this is a generality but think about it in practical terms.

The energy resources that are consumed in building and maintaining the roads and transmission lines to these remote areas by bulldozers, trucks, graders cranes etc. then the energy embodied in building the turbines generator, the nacelle and the blades, transporting them to the mountain top and assembling them, excavating the foundations, refining and hauling the massive amounts of concrete for the foundations.   The petroleum used to lubricate the units that has to be hauled up to the site and changed on a regular basis, these all have to be balanced by a turbine that sits idle a fair amount of time and then has to be furled or braked during high wind events.  This is not a model of efficiency.

They are great pieces of engineering and they have created a lot of jobs in an otherwise bleak jobs economy but they are not "free energy" like some in the past have extolled them to be.  They will never be a long term solution for clean dependable power. There are risks and dangers involved in them.  There is a balance to nature and energy.  Nothing is "free".  Wind, Hydro, nuclear, coal, gas, they all have their problems. 

The issue with birds is not that they get hit with the blades, it is that many of the birds seem to think they are trees and want to fly around them. When they pass through the low pressure zone created by the back of the blade while it is turning it somehow kills them.  Biologists are still not sure what the solution or cause is.  In the overall scope of environmental impact on birds, the reduction of nesting sites for some migratory birds and bats in these mountain top regions has far more impact than the few birds killed outright. To look at the blade, it appears to be turning slowly but the tips are approaching 180 MPH when operating at maximum output. There is over 200 tons of air pressure on the blade. That will make a lot more than your ears pop.

We have green energy activists fighting to put up the turbines here in Virginia while other green environmental activists like the Sierra club are fighting against them.  It's almost comical to see these two groups which both claim to promote world peace fight like a bunch of cats.  One group straps themselves to trees in front of bulldozers clearing mountain tops while the other stakes out the entrance to the nearby coal mines and nuclear plants with hate signs.  It has been great for the lawyers as they seem to make money either way.

Politicians want to brag about what they are doing to advance green energy and create jobs but they are scared of their wealthy donors that have mountain top retreats and coastal vacation homes and don't want the turbines in their view shed.  Meanwhile, back at the working man's ranch, the price of electricity continues to rise and the power companies get rate increase approvals to to meet new carbon reduction goals.  They get "carbon credits" for funding wind turbines as well as plenty of incentive money for "green power initiatives"  It's sad when there are lots of privately funded clean power technologies that are dying because they can't get permitted to build them.

In a few years, not only will the US have the highest corporate taxes, we will also have the highest energy costs.  This is two strikes against anyone wanting to manufacture or transport a product.  We haven't had a good national energy policy in place in over 30 years.  It's time for a change.

I favor offshore and coastal wind projects but don't see ridge line wind farms as sensible.  I favor small wind power, produced locally and independently.

I agree that decentralized small power generation is a large part of the solution; however, that only works if the major grids are upgraded to be smart grids and the small producers are compensated reasonably (read that as somewhere between wholesale and retail rates ).  That only happens with government subsidies.
Coal is dirty and the modern methods of extraction such as mountain top removal are worse than the old strip mines which could be reclaimed. 
We, as a country, consume inordinate amounts of energy compared to most of the world.  It stands to reason we should be paying a premium if we continue to be one of the largest polluters of the atmosphere.  Yes, I know China is not far behind, but they are just getting going.  We have been filling the air with greenhouse gasses for a long, long time.

It doesn't matter what the source of electrical energy, there is always a problem with a mismatch between demand and supply. Electrical grids have to be sized to handle peak demand. This can be more than double average demand. Similarly, the electrical source has to be able to meet peak demand. This has always been a problem for traditional electrical utilities. New energy sources could make the problem worse, or improve it.

In some regions solar energy may be at its maximum at about the same time demand peaks. In some regions, wind energy may be greatest at night, when peak demand is low. A sensible energy strategy ought to include an analysis of where wind and solar are most likely to alleviate peak demand on the existing grid.

Some companies (e.g. LightSail) are looking at practical ways to store energy when demand is low and return it when demand is high.

There are amazing breakthroughs happening with electric vehicles. Tesla already has a viable high-performance car with a decent range. They are building a network of charging stations up the West Coast and into Canada. And they just placed all their patents in the public domain.

Phinergy has made an aluminum-air battery that weighs 1/5 as much as the batteries in a Tesla model S, but will go 6 times as far without needing a recharge. The downside is that the battery is "recharged" by reprocessing it at an aluminum smelter. The real benefit, though, is that it can be added to a conventional electric car and used only if the regular battery runs out before it can be recharged.

This is all very well, but ... there is little point in replacing internal combustion engines with electric motors if you have to use fossil fuels to generate the electricity to charge the batteries. Charging during off-peak demand on the grid will reduce the need to upgrade transmission lines. However, you also need to have non-petroleum energy sources during those off-peak times.

Some Canadian researchers are developing a low-cost solar technology based on nano-particles. The product will be in the form of a paint, or an ink, that can literally be painted onto a non-conducting surface.

Now, back to wind ;). There are problems with common horizontal-shaft wind turbines. We wouldn't have known about them if we hadn't tried. But people have been learning a lot about vertical-shaft wind turbines. In theory they aren't as efficient; in practice it turns out that by spacing them in clusters the wasted energy off one can be recovered by adjacent turbines.

Bottom line -- there is a whole lot going on in the field of alternate energy right now. As soon as a problem is uncovered, someone jumps in trying to solve it. It's all very chaotic at the moment but that's good. That's when the innovative and practical ideas will start to emerge.

Oh, yes. If you should be planning a trip through southern BC in an electric car, be sure to come visit. The tiny city of Rossland has two public charging stations ;D.

Once upon a time, people were scared of electricity.  The only experience they had with it was seeing lightning strike.  Tesla was known as a crazy man and Edison not far behind making people scared by electrocuting vast numbers of animals to prove his DC power superior over AC eventually inventing the first electric chair and doing a poor job of killing a human being.  No wonder acceptance was not initially wide spread.  My grandfather was a gas and oil man.  When electricity came to his small town in western Pennsylvania through the rural electrification act, he said it was too dangerous for him.  He preferred to continue burning gas lights in the house.

Most of us have an intense fear of things we are unfamiliar with.  It is part of nature.  Deer will run the first time they see you but after a while they become familiar and unless you shoot at them or otherwise harm them, they will eventually adapt to human presence.

Humans are not much different.  Unfortunately, the first attempts we make at anything usually have quite terrible results.  The first ICE powered automobiles that ran the streets faced a lot of resistance because they produced smoke, were loud, backfired and scared horses and people causing chaos and went too fast for the narrow streets of the day.

The first electric cars had the opposite problem but the same effect.  People claimed, (and still do) that they were too quiet and gave no warning of approach and as such were a danger. 

Most people thought at one time that if people were meant to fly, God would have given them wings like birds.  He didn't but he gave us something much more powerful, the human mind which makes flight possible (though not as efficient as birds flight)

By this same method of development, is it any wonder that wind power has its casualties?  (Understanding that wind turbines are not new, it is just the electrical production part that is new)

The point is that everything has its place.  Americas biggest problem when it comes to power/energy is greed and our mentality that bigger is better and large scale is always the way to maximize profit.  It leads to inordinate amounts of waste. 

Large centralized power generation will always suffer inefficiencies due to unpredictable loads and peak demand as well as distribution losses and costs.  Pumped storage hydro seemed to be a great solution to this as you could store power for when you needed it but once again, the bigger is better mentality took over and the next thing we knew, every major river was dammed up and this had a direct environmental impact perhaps larger than any other energy source known to man.  We are now aware of these impacts and dams are being breached and removed at a huge cost. This does not mean we should abandon hydro-power.  We just need to be smarter about how we do it and look at the long term risk/benefit in each location.

Coal mining can be done with modern methods in clean, responsible ways.  So can drilling. For that matter so can nuclear micro-reactors. The problem is that greed and profit are short term and environmental impacts are long term.  Ask the asbestos companies about it.

Vertical wind turbines have some unique virtues about them and have a certain mystique that cause continued interest although in most applications they have proven to be more costly and less efficient than horizontal axis turbines.  There are places where they can be used at advantage.

Until now most wind turbines have been manufactured to produce power in a very narrow band of wind speed.  They begin producing at at between 6-10 MPH and are good up to about 30MPH at which point they begin to have overspeed issues  they like non-turbulent laminar wind flows.  Unfortunately, this slow steady laminar flow is not the way the wind blows at the mojority of locations where people live.  it is actually very unpleasant to live in areas where wind blows steady at speeds conducive to good production with today's turbines.  Once again this is because we have adopted a bigger is better mentality.

I visualize a different world of wind turbines that are two speed turbines with one or more on every rooftop in America.  They would spin at the slightest breeze and produce only a trickle charge at this low speed. It is the quantity of them spread across large areas that would make them effective.  When the winds pick up, they would engage a secondary stage and produce high outputs with the additional resistance slowing the blades to allow operation in winds over 60 MPH.  For those of you who have studied wind power, you understand that power production increases at an exponential rate with wind speed increase.  You could produce more power in a brief thunderstorm with 60 MPH winds than you can with several days of steady 10MPH winds if the turbines would function in those adverse conditions.  The 60 mph thunderstorm winds however are often turbulent and hard on the average horizontal axis turbine.  VAWT's do better in rapidly shifting and turbulent winds. Some of this is due to inefficiency and some due to the fact that the spiral blade arrangement is always 180 degrees to the wind in one point regardless of how rapid the direction change is.

This model uses large scale production of small units to drive down manufacturing costs and make the small turbines affordable and easy to install with less environmental impact rather than producing a few large scale turbine units at a high manufacturing cost and with a large environmental impact.  The large commercial scale units still have a place in offshore wind farms where they operate at maximum efficiency.

The real answer to energy issues is planning and conservation not constantly increasing production.

By the way, for those who are curious, my aunt had the power company install electric in my grandfathers house while he was out of town one time.  He was very upset when he returned and the gas lights were gone but after a few years of living with electricity, he became a big fan of it, even though he was a gas and oil man.  Everything has its place, its all about finding where it fits and is most efficient.

Thehardway, your partly right on the idea of a windmill on every roof top, but your about a 100 years too late, its already been done in the past in rural areas.    Before rural electric came through the area, there were wind chargers to charge batteries stored in the basement to run electric lights and appliances in the house.   My grandpa used to have two of them to contend with, one on each farm at that time.      He wasn't a big fan of them at all from the conversations I had with him before he died, but they did work.   As they say what goes around comes around with enough time, this just maybe one of them, but with much newer and more improved technology to back it up and eliminate a lot of the grief that plagued the much earlier units produced that my grandpa had to contend with, mostly battery issues in the day and the problem of overcharging and draining the batteries totally dead and also with the connection issues to couple them all together. 

What most people need to remember back then, the government also assisted in subsidizing the running of lines throughout the country sides to provide electricity to the rural areas, no different than just about any form of new energy development out there that has ever been invented or tried on a mass scale, but over time it usually pays itself back and more than covers the cost to bring it about in the first place.   

I don't see the real problem as being how we produce electricity, the real problem is how we use it. Lighting up the night like it was day, air conditioning instead of building with cooling in mind, heating instead of insulating well. Our whole society could use an overhaul on thinking. In the majority of places in North America that have building departments/inspections and an enforced building code no-one will blink an eye if you want to build a 10,000 square ft house for one or two people but most will not let you build a 200 square ft house for the same two people. The mindset of our society and those who govern us is so skewed to profit and consumerism that I fear for our future.

Quote from: r.man on November 13, 2014, 09:00:15 PM
I don't see the real problem as being how we produce electricity, the real problem is how we use it. Lighting up the night like it was day, air conditioning instead of building with cooling in mind, heating instead of insulating well. Our whole society could use an overhaul on thinking. In the majority of places in North America that have building departments/inspections and an enforced building code no-one will blink an eye if you want to build a 10,000 square ft house for one or two people but most will not let you build a 200 square ft house for the same two people. The mindset of our society and those who govern us is so skewed to profit and consumerism that I fear for our future.

There will be no common sense in this thread go away!

The hand of our future has already been dealt, all we can do is brace for its impact.

rman, you absolutely hit the nail on the head, but the major problem is, if you can afford it, someone will let you do it, or you don't even need to ask.    The only downside of what's been going on in the last half dozen decades is, when your done with it, who's going to want to buy it?     We've seen this in houses in the late 1800's and early 1900's, their hotels to say the least, built out of ego mostly and to fit some people heads who were wealthy enough to afford to build them in the first place, some call them status symbols.    But the bottom line is, they are dated, totally inefficient, way overbuilt, highly taxed, high priced to buy and maintain and now, nobody wants them at all.    They are not even remotely desirable and after time goes by, they are abandoned and neglected so badly, they just fall into decay and gone from the landscape completely.   Much like what will happen to some of the houses built in the last few decades around me.   

We went shopping for a retirement house for my folks a few years back, and soon realized there are none out there designed with this in mind, all that were on the market were designed for middle aged or younger people, not someone who can't get around or wheel chair acceptable, and after chatting with realtors in the area, none were built in the last few decades, and those that were are never on the market, they are bought up before ever getting to the market and the wait list is years to find one privately, which we didn't have that kind of time to look, so we ended up building one instead.   But what shocked me was that were houses out there with anywhere from 500 to 1500 bucks a month property taxes on them, and to heat and cool them was even more per month, are people totally crazy to even built those kinds of houses in the first place?   

Hamish, your partly right, the hand is dealt, but just like card games, the next hand is coming around the corner any second, and we can learn from others past mistakes, the key is to not make the same one's yourself and find yourself in the same situation as those that did make them. 

Light bulbs are an amusement to me, for some reason I get a big kick out of them, and the people who complain about them, take my dad for example, he hated the florescent bulbs when they first came out, so he bought up every incandescent bulb he could find, boxes full of them to have on hand.    Well as things go, he had an outrageous electric bill one month, or so he thought, so he hired an electrician to track down the problem in his new house, turned out to be a bad water heater element, no big deal, but he was watching his meter like a hawk for weeks and jotted down all the readings day to day, he knew exactly what his air conditioner took to run, water heater, tv, you name it, he knew the kilowatts it took to run each one on a day to day basis.     So after a few weeks of listening to this unfold, I finally told him I'd bring over a few boxes of those new stupid bulbs with the squiggly tails and put them in everything he had, so I did.    It took a few days to get a call telling me the bulbs could stay and asked if I thought those new high priced LED bulbs would pay for themselves over time, told him to get a few and see for himself and do the math, last week I was over there and he had a few LED bulbs in some of the light sockets where the old incandescent bulbs once were even a few months ago.   I never said a word, but mom made comment about turning him into an efficiency hound seeking out even the smallest thing and doing the math to see if it was cost effective.  I asked about the boxes of old incandescent bulbs he had to stock up on and she told me he donated them to someone else and told my mom he couldn't afford to keep them and use them, they took way too much electricity, but never said a word to me.      Times change and so do people's thinking, I never thought my dad would ever use any new light bulb, but if there's hope for him, things are really looking up for society in general. 

Society in general will find a way to cut costs, maybe not usage, but the cost to have the same usage is what most want and science is geared towards, from light bulbs to water heaters, dishwashers, you name it, its all geared towards efficiency and efficiency sells on a larger scale to the general public, anything that's old technology is doomed in the long term, its about speed and efficiency today, the problem lies in, its not in everything, just consumer items per say.      But time brings about new technologies and also lower costs.     I for one would love to have a windmill on my property for my personal use, but as of today, its not yet low cost enough to justify itself in short term payback, but I'm sure in the near future as costs are lowered, it will eventually come where it is much shorter payback and I'll have one, then I too can complain to my grandkids someday all the problems I had with it.     

When I was growing up we had a wind charger, then it wore out so went to a gas motor that ran the alternator, same basic system, 32 volts with large batteries in glass jars.  Now I've replaced my last windmill with solar and I like it a lot better.  Virtually no maintenance and more production for the money spent. 8) 8)

I still have a few wind chargers.  I would pay money to be aloud to climb up one of the big wind mills.
We have a lot of them in the northeast part of Pa.



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There is another string of them around Island Falls, Maine. We take a ride sometimes up on a ridge that used to be a lot more cleared farmland. And we can look across and see them and look in the direction of Mars Hill, Maine and see them also from the same spot.  We're being invaded. ;D

Never seen pieces like that being trucked. There is a drop off spot in Jay,ME,just about 20 minutes from me. I have seen the blades there and the round towers,but that is it. On the way to work I can see them in Roxbury on a ridge.

SD, there is a huge one planned on Irving land off Route11 near Merrill in Aroostook. That is if the company (now SunEdison) doesn't go under. Swirling around the toilet bowl at the moment!

We have a bunch of the big ones near the Columbia River, just east of the gorge.  I think they're some of the most beautiful things humans have made.  Oddly they remind me a little of nuclear reactor cooling towers.

Quote from: Brad_S. on February 19, 2016, 08:21:46 PM
SD, there is a huge one planned on Irving land off Route11 near Merrill in Aroostook. That is if the company (now SunEdison) doesn't go under. Swirling around the toilet bowl at the moment!

I only live a few miles from rt 11.  I looked it up it  extends 1,645 miles.

They were going to put 28 across the ridge where I live, but the naysayers in town got together and voted it down. I lost out on 3 Jennies at $1100/month. Let me think about that, $3300 per month and taking 1 acre out per windmill...now where do I sign?

Worse yet was the town of Jackson. They had TOWN LAND on top of a mountain where the windmill company was going to pay the town $500,000 per year for all the windmills they could put up there. Their 650 residents only had a total property tax amount of $650,000 a year and yet they turned it down. Their tax bill per landowner would have been NOTHING. The reason, they wanted the windmills to be 1 mile from the nearest house and not a 1/2 mile!

Yeah I am still mad about this.

  I can understand the people not wanting to hear the roar of those turbines
24 hours a day. Those things sound like jet engines.

Quote from: Brad_S. on February 19, 2016, 08:21:46 PM
SD, there is a huge one planned on Irving land off Route11 near Merrill in Aroostook. That is if the company (now SunEdison) doesn't go under. Swirling around the toilet bowl at the moment!

As far as I can tell these are the windmills just installed in the last year that we now see. They are running now.

Quote from: Slingshot on March 21, 2016, 10:07:35 PM

  I can understand the people not wanting to hear the roar of those turbines
24 hours a day. Those things sound like jet engines.

I've heard jet engines and I wouldn't equate them to that. ::) But you do hear those big fins moving through the air when you're near. Just like any sound of a windmill in Holland.  ;D

There's a huge windfarm in the Van Wert Ohio area which is about 30 miles from me .Wind turbines for miles clear into Indiana .Flat land about like to top of a table .The wind picks up speed coming out of Indiana or so it seems .

Odd though with all that hoopla it seems only a small portion of them are running on any praticular day from what I've seen . It's also very odd all the sudden just like magic they found huge deposits of natural gas near Cleveland Ohio right near where Rockerfeller drilled for oil over 100 years ago .Like it wasn't there all along ?

Another oddity ,ethanol .They built ethanol plants everywhere only to close a majority of them down in less that two years .Took corn used for cattle feed and good whiskey and turned in into high tech moonshine now they don't want it ?--Makes you wonder what in the world is going on .

QuoteOdd though with all that hoopla it seems only a small portion of them are running on any praticular day from what I've seen . It's also very odd all the sudden just like magic they found huge deposits of natural gas near Cleveland Ohio right near where Rockerfeller drilled for oil over 100 years ago .Like it wasn't there all along ?

100 years ago they didn't want gas. No oil? Just this useless gas, plug the well....

Now you drill a good gas well, pipe it to an efficient combined cycle power station, and it's worth the investment.

Here in NZ wind generators work in the right spots. Of course there is the NIMBY thing. Everyone wants clean power, but no one wants a windmill or new hydro dam near their house.

They have the problem that they are intermittent generation, you can't rely on them for reliable base load. Luckily we have a lot of Hydro, and so they do work well together. No wind, you can draw down the hydro lakes. Wind picks up and you reduce the hydro flow and refill the lakes. You can get a week or so of higher than average generation from a Hydro, as long as you have a break to let it refill. If you are relying on thermal generators, then you have to have the full capacity on standby in case the wind dies down. That messes up the economics.

QuoteThose things sound like jet engines.

Not in my experience. Standing under one, there is a bit of a "whir" as the blades rotate past. 1/4 of a mile away? Nothing.
They are more like the wing of a big glider, same sort of aerodynamics and noise going on. OK, maybe it's a glider the size of a 737, so it's not quite silent. But it's a 737 with the engines off  :D  :o

Timely subject because just this morning in the editorial portion of the local newspaper was an article written by a resident of that area I mentioned .

She pointed out the fact most land owners have never been paid for the leases and 39 sites have mechanics liens against the company for over 1 million dollars per site .If they go belly up the removal of the mills is the problem of the land owners .I kind of think there's some shady dealings there or PT Barnum is still alive . If it sounds too good to be true most of the time it isn't .

Odd part is there is a bill that states by 2020  or 2025 20% all electrical power within the state of Ohio is supposed to be from renewable sources.They aren't doing so well with that .

Quote from: SwampDonkey on March 22, 2016, 03:57:02 AM

Quote from: Brad_S. on February 19, 2016, 08:21:46 PM
SD, there is a huge one planned on Irving land off Route11 near Merrill in Aroostook. That is if the company (now SunEdison) doesn't go under. Swirling around the toilet bowl at the moment!

As far as I can tell these are the windmills just installed in the last year that we now see. They are running now.

No, that is the Oakfield Windfarm. The proposed one is west of there at the end of Rte. 212.

Ok, that makes sense, because there is no route 11 through Merrill, unless your going north through Patten and up to Ashland. They do merge up there at Knowles Corner, way above Patten. We drive up through that area some and go to the Patten Lumberman's Museum in August for bean hole beans and biscuits off the reflector ovens. ;D

Funny thing the Kennedy family is really green, but wait they didn't want the windmills where they lived. :snowball:

In the never ending debate on wind power a new problem has been aired .It seems the companies who did the mega wind farm near VanWert Ohio have caused other problems .

First let me say this area of Ohio was  part of the great black swamp at one time .Some of the richest farm land in the USA if not the entire world .As such it required enough drainage tile to about reach the moon .

In installing the underground cables to connect the wind generators to the grid they cut a majority of the drainage tiles .Now the farmers are stuck with repairing them so they can get the surface water off to plant crops .It will probably get to be a great debacle before it's over .

I can't imagine the regulators including the USDA even allowing farm land to be crossed with cabling and digging up drain tile. Someone was asleep at the switch. Drain tile on farmland around here since at least the 1980's has to be marked with post and sign.

I gotta laugh, had an outsider proceed to tell me those signs and posts mark telephone cable. For one there never was a telephone line in the area we were talking about, there was power though, no phone. It was the 40's. Second, the guy can't read I guess or figure out pictorials of drain pipe and water. Plus I've lived here for awhile on farms that made a living, not hobby farms. Seen lots of tile go in.  Any decent farm ground here is under the FLIP program. ;)

Well, it's not going well for this wind farm. Bad foundations.  bat_smailey Notice to, they are on dry productive forest land (second growth), not bogs.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/cracks-in-foundation-led-to-wind-turbine-collapse-1.6312668

Not a good thing.
As I see that is a costly error.  :o

I use to work for the company(s) that own/owned the Mars Hill turbines. Every year we would perform "RAT" (rock anchor tensioning) on all turbines in Maine. In a nut shell, you pull on the anchor bolts holding the turbine to the bedrock and re-tension bolts if needed. If 4 test bolts that were pulled on a turbine base didn't need tensioning, the turbine passed and it was on to the next one. If any one of the 4 failed, all bolts (16-20 depending on the make and size) would need to be re-tensioned. It was rare to have to re-tension a turbine without many years passing in-between.
Turbine #5 on Mars Hill (#1 is northern most) failed annually. As I said, I am no longer with the companies but last I heard, it has gotten so far out of plumb that they don't operate it anymore.
SD, next time you're by Mars Hill, see if the 5th turbine from the north is operating.

I'll take the 2 degrees and natural gas.

Turbine 'torture' for Greek islanders as wind farms proliferate (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/turbine-torture-for-greek-islanders-as-wind-farms-proliferate/ar-AATINat?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531)

Quote from: Brad_S. on January 29, 2022, 10:31:30 PM
I use to work for the company(s) that own/owned the Mars Hill turbines. Every year we would perform "RAT" (rock anchor tensioning) on all turbines in Maine. In a nut shell, you pull on the anchor bolts holding the turbine to the bedrock and re-tension bolts if needed. If 4 test bolts that were pulled on a turbine base didn't need tensioning, the turbine passed and it was on to the next one. If any one of the 4 failed, all bolts (16-20 depending on the make and size) would need to be re-tensioned. It was rare to have to re-tension a turbine without many years passing in-between.
Turbine #5 on Mars Hill (#1 is northern most) failed annually. As I said, I am no longer with the companies but last I heard, it has gotten so far out of plumb that they don't operate it anymore.
SD, next time you're by Mars Hill, see if the 5th turbine from the north is operating.

They were up there with cranes fixing a couple turbines last year.

   We are just beginning windmills here in western Canada. The oldest ones close to me are only six years old. Do any you live where the mills have been up for many years. No one here seems to know how long they last till obsolete or worn out.
    Also: what becomes of them after shutdown?

Age of windmills
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960148113005727

And how they are brought down..
Felling of a Thermally Damaged Wind Turbine - Controlled Demolition, Inc. - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3lxm-l5SSY)

Quote from: dogone on February 12, 2022, 08:17:38 PMNo one here seems to know how long they last till obsolete or worn out

Design life is usually about 20 years. Could last longer, but that's what they base their financial predictions on. After that they plan on replacing them. It's not so much becoming obsolete, but there is a finite life for the blades, a bit like an aircraft wing, which is what they most closely resemble.  

So like any machine, they eventually wear out and/or maintenance costs get too high. 

For reference, a gas turbine power station is expected to run for 30-35 years. They might not replace the building, but it will be a new power plant inside it.

They've got to have a good base to. There is a wind farm here that is having to replace the concrete base under most of their windmills. I bet whoever poured it first is going to be bankrupt.

If the company that poured the bases that were failing installed them to the design, they may not be liable. It could be the designer who made a mistake of the geotechnical firm that made the geotech recommendations. It also could be defects in construction materials. Usually, the lawsuits are the shotgun approach, sue everyone and let the court settle it out. 

I just looked at the old news article and it was a design flaw, so the company is going to eat it. 50 have to be replaced. They figure the work will be done by the end of next year.

 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/59695/A20E9056-B593-414B-A4B6-8DDAEA461513.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1662928389)
 

The Windmills on Mars Hill, Maine were not turning today.   Must be off on Sunday's.  ;)

California edition..... is that smog or smoke from the forest fires in the back ground?

That was tire smoke from the burnout.  :D

Hmmm...never thought of that.

Did you ever watch any youtube drag racing vids of the Tesla plaid vs ...... 

I read somewhere that the blades on wind turbine are made of fiberglass and are a disposal liability when they are replaced.

I worked for windmill firm in VT about 15 years ago, so my info may be dated. 

There were two major types of turbines. Geared and direct drive permanent magnet (PM). Geared turbines have large speed up gearboxes in the nacelle hooked to an induction generator running at a synchronous speed. Induction generator rotors are energized by the grid so they run at synchronous speed and put out clean AC. 

Permanent Magnet turbines do not have a gearbox, the blades are direct connected to a generator similar to the old fashioned generators that used to be used in cars. The power generated is called "wild AC. The voltage and frequency varies all over the place. They are simpler but require a power converter to convert the wild AC to utility AC. The power electronics are similar to a variable speed drive. The power electronics can be in the nacelle or on the ground. The PM turbines are far simpler. A speed up gear box is a tough application, turbulence and gusts can really shock load the gearteeth. Many of the major geared wind turbine companies went through a lot of issues and long ago 5 or 6 years before a rebuild/replacement was normal. Rigging a new one in place required a large crane and some companies got in lot to trouble solving the gearbox issue and some never did. PG&E was in the news recently that at one of their major windfarms the interior of the nacelles are covered with oil and oil is leaking out and being thrown long distances. At least when I was working, the PM turbines were covered with patents owned by GE and my company (Northern Power). GE owned a large European turbine producer that made geared turbines so they were just sitting on the patents to keep competitors out. NP was building 100KW NorthWind 100 PM rugged turbines for cold climates (a lot deployed in Alaska). They were working on a 3 MW PM machine but the Wall Street folks who bought the company shelved that project in search for a quick buck on other tech. They went bankrupt, but new investors went after the big turbine but it was too late and they did not have the bucks to compete. The small turbine designs and manufacturing went to Italy and I think the big turbine went to Brazil.  

Quote from: KEC on September 11, 2022, 06:01:20 PM
I read somewhere that the blades on wind turbine are made of fiberglass and are a disposal liability when they are replaced.

That's basically correct, fibreglass / carbon fibre is very difficult to recycle. But at least it's relatively inert, so at least you can dig a hole and bury it. But that is a valid concern.
A local fertiliser company is planning to put in a wind farm using 4 mW turbines. They currently manufacture urea fertiliser from Natural Gas, but as you can imagine that produces a lot of CO2. The new plan involves making hydrogen from the wind generated electricity, and using that to produce the Urea instead (and also sell some of the hydrogen as fuel). 
The hydrogen stage gets around the "What if there is no wind?" problem, as it can be stored for later use.  I imagine there is various technical issues to work through, but the basic physics and chemistry are at least valid.

Quote from: Ianab on February 13, 2022, 02:18:25 AMFor reference, a gas turbine power station is expected to run for 30-35 years. They might not replace the building, but it will be a new power plant inside it

There is a facility about an hour from that builds and re-builds gas turbines, that's all they do.  A buddy of mine works there and was working on one from from the 80's a few weeks ago. 

The gas turbines closely resemble jet aircraft engines, and will have a service life (x hours) between maintenance. I think it works out to about 10 years continuous running, but that varies depending on the type of service it actually sees. So the actual engines in a gas station could be swapped out with new or rebuilt ones a few times over the life of plant. Basically the same as the engines on an airliner get swapped out for major maintenance. 

The small gas turbine plants (4 to 7 MW)  I work on use A Solar Turbine brand gas turbine (Solar is owned by Cat). There is a major service at 5 years where they swap out the turbine rotating assembly with a rebuilt version. The cores can be rebuilt several times but there are wear components that get swapped out. Most large gas turbine power plants are combined cycle where the turbines generate power and lots of hot exhaust which is then used to generate steam to run a steam turbine. Even if the turbine is worn a bit, it may be less efficient but the hotter exhaust gas leaking through creates more steam so rebuilding the turbine is bit less critical than in a plane.   

Okay now a story going back to around late 70's during a coal miners strike .They called for curtailment of large power users .Ford motor decided to take matters in hand and bought two gigantic diesel generators plus an old "peaker " unit  that used a free turbine .Pratt and Whitney serial number 0001 ,first ever .I was general foreman on the worlds record time of installing a gas turbine generator .We had it running in 20 days from the time it was removed from East Hartford Conn  until it was running in Lima Ohio  but the coal strike ended and never put it on the line .The unit eventually got scrapped and part of the tie down brackets are now on my bull dozer blade for the blade tilting assembly .That thing had an out put of 15,000 HP and drank 1000 gallons per hour of JP-4 fuel . I think it was between 2 and 3 million dollars at the time total money spent  
and believe it or not they recovered all the money by reselling the machinery .
Some place I have my notes on the start up procedures but I doubt I'll ever need to start up a jet engine again .

Big offshore Wind farm being planned for the local coast. 

New Zealand's first offshore wind farm gets under way in Taranaki | Stuff.co.nz (https://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/300728999/new-zealands-first-offshore-wind-farm-gets-under-way-in-taranaki)

900 MW is a sizeable chunk off NZ's power needs, and although it's not 100% reliable, it slots in with the large amount of hydro capacity. I'd also think the area is one of the more consistent wind spots in the World. I did some contract work out on the gas platforms there, and I don't remember it being totally calm ANY day I was out there. 

Add that to the now approved plan by a local fertiliser company for some onshore turbines. They currently make Urea fertiliser from natural gas, which as you can imagine has some pretty serious carbon emission issues. But you can also make Urea from hydrogen, which you can make from wind generated electricity. The generation then doesn't have to be 24/7 as some amount of hydrogen can be stored. 

Wind turbines reaching 206m tall proposed for Taranaki site as part of m green hydrogen project | Stuff.co.nz (https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/300428537/wind-turbines-reaching-206m-tall-proposed-for-taranaki-site-as-part-of-70m-green-hydrogen-project)

Bovine burp and fart taxes to pay for windmill blades that can't be recycled.

I think it adds up as more go up, and storage improves. But we've got a heck of ways to go though. Plus the carbon foot print producing them and replacing them. After 20 years goes by, you get a backlog of replacements starting to build up. Industry draws a lot of juice and you need to keep the lights on at the factory to keep your job and your house. One pulp mill here draws as much juice as a small city of 60,000 residents and they generate some of their own, just for perspective. ;)

There is energy used to build them of course, but that's basically paid back after 1 or 2 years. But if you build a gas or coal station, it's never going to get back to "neutral". 

Every piece of machinery has a "service life". Steam or gas turbines don't magically last for ever either.


Thing is, people are explaining why something that IS already working "can't possibly work", and has been working for the 20+ years. The economic numbers are pretty well known now. Companies aren't building wind farms on pixie dust and wishful thinking. They have the numbers, it will cost "X" million, and we will make "Y" million back over the next ~20 years. 

It's a long ways off from being mainstream energy. You need a lot of them to work reliably for 'advertised' output. There will be a heck of a lot more maintenance over the long haul, which will likely end up in lots of abandonment. The economics works because it is tied to government money at the hip. If it is such a cash cow in profits, why doesn't the construction cost stand on it's own without government handouts? Any wind farm sites that are 20 years old are about to cost a lot of money. Already I have seen 2 burn down and many being fixed with cranes and it's only 15 years locally. Usually a 10th of them not functioning when the rest are turning in a stiff breeze.

7 to 10% of the country's power is now wind and increasing. Comparing that to fossil fuel at ~20%, so it's now becoming "mainstream", not some experimental fringe thing. 


NZ is maybe an edge case because of the amount of hydro, and relatively low population. But it's being installed because it actually works economically for the companies.  Sure if a turbine fails it's pretty obvious and makes the news. If a gas turbine generator fails, some plant alarms go off and it cost a few million $ to repair, but there is no sensational news coverage. 

In Canada, hydro, nuke and nat. gas electric generation is 85% of production. 5% is wind, 7% is still coal. A very long way to go for wind. I can tell ya if a gas plant burns town, it's not ignored. If a hydro plant needs refurbishment it's not ignored. If a windmill does, chances are it is ignored by national media, a small mention by local news. There is very little local news, it has been disappearing for years. The Observer, the Gleaner are both gone.

If folks want to install a solar power of wind turbines for their own personal power use. More power to them.
Just don't keep spreading lies about wind energy and solar power at tax payer expense. 
It's quite funny how many get taken in by the greenwashing, carbon feet propagandists. 
Don't fall for the big lie.
https://stopthesethings.com/2022/05/16/the-big-green-lie-why-well-never-ever-be-100-powered-by-wind-solar-power/

And with all these new forms of energy ramping up, plastic production is going to triple in the next 2 decades. Currently over $600 B in market value, industry forecast close to $900 B by 2030. And we recycle about 5% after 40 years? That means 95% of it goes into the environment as waste or burned to create electricity. Already large cities burn off tons of it as part of solid waste management and energy generation. Yeah, we've given up on fossil fuels. Nothing but a hoax. So you end up consuming fossil fuel to produce it and then burning it to get rid of it. I'm wondering if the physical structure of windmills can be reused, just replace the innards. And how long before it loses structural integrity and lies on a boneyard? Not enough time has passed to see what they come up with to manage the waste.

That's a question I've got for the windmills, what happens to them when they're taken out of service? Seems like an awful lot of material that serves one purpose only, once it done serving that purpose it seems to become someone else's issue. 

It is a big controversy of exactly what do you do with a wind generator after it becomes worn out because it will fail at some time or another .The steel and copper for the generator can be recycled but what about the fiberglass ? Old tires can be used for road coatings on a small scale but as of yet you can't recycle fiberglass turbine blades into a power boat hulls or a million fishing rods .It's going to create a problem if it isn't already .
The fiberglass would last a million years if you bury it .You could grind it up and burn it because the bonding agents will burn if it's hot enough .The glass will not burn but I suppose could be collected and make a zillion beer bottles .Nothing so far is doable unless for the intended humor talking about it . :)

https://www.energy.gov/eere/wind/articles/carbon-rivers-makes-wind-turbine-blade-recycling-and-upcycling-reality-support (https://www.energy.gov/eere/wind/articles/carbon-rivers-makes-wind-turbine-blade-recycling-and-upcycling-reality-support)

Apparently fibreglass recycling technology exist.

I think from a historical stand point they use creative methods to salvage just about anything .The slaughter houses of Chicago used everything in a pig except the oink .Spam for example ,parts and pieces in a tin can  .Henry Ford figured out how to use the mountains of sawdust  left over from the production of early automobile parts .It's called Kingsford charcoal these days . 
 

Surely there is some more tax money in the solution. :D :D

I also noticed on another website that says currently

"Turbines are 85-90% recyclable
Approximately 85 to 90 percent of a wind turbine's total mass can be reused or recycled."

This makes sense because a windmill is mostly metals except for the blades and nacelle.

https://renewablesassociation.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Recycling-Wind-Turbines-English-Web.pdf (https://renewablesassociation.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Recycling-Wind-Turbines-English-Web.pdf)

Hmmm a nacelle is pretty big I wonder if any one has tried to make a house out of one?

Quote from: SwampDonkey on November 06, 2022, 11:08:22 AM
Surely there is some more tax money in the solution. :D :D

Could be, when they take all the tax money, incentives and kickbacks out of oil and gas I'll start complaining.  ;D

All part of the chain to me. Need one to produce the other. :D Even more so with new policy that says one can't be produced without the other. No renewable energy projects unless more oil projects. :D

After driving in a part of Iowa that has the wind turbines and looking at them fairly close they are massive. The footprint on the ground isn't that much and the blades are plenty high to farm under. But what a eye sore!! Some farm ground I looked at had five and the payout was 4,000 a year lease with five on the place. They got him to sign low! The leases are 4-9k average a year. Might have something to do with how much those particular ones produce.