Price too low?

[DanG]

As I try to plan a direction for my sawmilling business to take, one of the things that seems lucrative, and in demand, would be the production of flooring. There is about to be a housing boom in this area, and I'd like to get in on it, by installing a dry kiln, and a planer-moulder, to produce my product from start to finish.

Now comes along this fellow that is advertising "factory fresh oak flooring, $.99 per sq ft."  

Surely, he can't produce a high quality, finished product at that price, and stay in business, can he?  Would it be ethical to call him, and ask about his product, pretending to be a potential customer, or should I be upfront, and identify myself as future competition?

What would be considered a fair price for flooring, ready to install?

[Jeff]

Dan,

Here is a sample of our floor. We paid .99 a square foot. It is what they call cabin grade. I hate the high grade flooring because there is no character. This flooring has stain, knots, mineral streaks, and its beautiful.

Here is the real deal though. The cabin grade lumber that we bought for .99, in all actuality probably cost $2 a foot by the time we culled out the pieces that had wane, broken tongues or grooves, splits, loose knots, etc. We ended up with the look we wanted but not at 99 cents a foot.

I would believe that this wood you speak of is the same type deal. The Company that sold us the wood sells it as is. it comes in about 6 to 8 foot bundles.

I bet if you call them up and ask if they have guaranteed covererage with usable peices at that cost he will say no. I would not think calling him to ask questions would be deseptive at all, unless you actually tell him your a customer. I would say, "I am interested in your flooring" which would be the God's honest truth.

We have a large amish population around here, and everyone of them have a sawmill. We get phone calles every week from people with german accents asking about our lumber prices. Who do ya figure they are? :D

[Bibbyman]

I've always been open and upfront when talking with others in the business. Quite often, we've helped each other's businesses by exchanging customers that we could better serve or by helping each other with referrals, find equipment, etc.  

I've gotten those calls too where people want to know the prices of everything, where our logs come from, how much to we pay, who we market to, what equipment we have and how we do things, and I'll ask them if they have a sawmill or are thinking of getting one.  When they say yes, I invite them to come down some time and we'll talk.  I find its good business to be on good terms with others in the business.

[Ron Wenrich]

German accents?  Everyone around here talks like that!  I've heard the words Jews, choose, juice, and chews all pronounced the same way. :D

It is no more unethical to call and ask about his product than to walk around Lowe's or Home Depot looking at the products they are selling.  You can get ideas from all sorts of places.

Flooring is generally produced from low grade lumber.  Knots are often removed as well as other cosmetic defects.  This type of flooring is going for around $3/sq ft in at Lowe's.

Another thing to look at is lumber thickness.  The higher grades of flooring are 3/4".  You can get them a lot thinner, and that skews the sq ft to bd ft ratio.  

What market niche are you looking for?  Do you want the low end user or the high end user?  Each will demand a different grade and price.

Another thing to consider is different species.  Oak is the most prevalent now, but, I've heard that upscale houses are turning more towards maple.  Consumer tastes differ from area to area.  Specialty markets usually command higher prices.

[Bibbyman]

I didn't say anything about ethics.  I'm always up front because I've found it a better way of doing business.  But, now that you mention it,  if I call someone on the pretense that I'm a legitimate customer and use 5-10-20 minutes of their time to find out information valuable to me,  with no intention of doing business with them, then I'd say yes,  that's not right.  I've had a number of calls that I know or suspect fall in that range.  They have taken more than information, they have taken my time.

As far as Lowes' and Home Depot,  then its out there for public display and you're likely going to pick up an extension cord, power tool, or some nails anyway.  But even then,  when Home Depot came to our area,  I went in and looked over their KD hardwood and asked to talk to the manager of the department.  We talked for about a half hour and exchanged business cards.  You know what!  They will buy from local producers. He gave me some examples for the deals they made with local businesses where he had came from.  I didn't peruse it because we already have two lumberyards that we supply lumber to.

[Bud Man]

I've found evasive tactics in learning about "The Competition" to be ethically improper ( in my mind) and limiting in results.   An open conversation with a competitor will tell you much  more about them than a closed one of evasive means.  Competitors know you're there and you know their there,  an open conversation has lead to many great opportunities for me in the past and I'm sure it will lead to many more.  Competition is what makes us get out of bed in the morning and take on the day with vigor !!

[J_T]

 A man across the way here has a sawmill and when i got mine i didn't know how to aproach him for information.So one sunday i worked up my nerve an went an knocked on his door.His son started up their mill and showed me all about it .Since then he comes by to check on me i appointed him inspector and he said he would saw the first log when i get it together.All i know about a sawmill is what my uncle told me said he knew a man once that read a book on sawmills.I have been suprised at the help i have got. Most around here say thare is plenty for every body.

[Tom]

JT, I noticed  "way back in the nineteen hundreds" (I like to say that)  that sawmillers are generally the most  helpful bunch of characters I ever met.  I know there must be some jerks out there but all I have ever met were more than willing to talk shop, help with problems, teach most anything they knew and help another mill out in a bind, even if it was a competitor. I guess the Feds could have a hay-day in this occupation if they wanted to come down on one-man sawmills for price fixing, although the millers don't consider it that.  They are just visiting and helping, not coercing.

You may feel out of place looking the big lumber yards over for material and prices, but I'll bet you would be welcomed on the site of most of the little mills. These operations seem to be a "horse of a different color".  

[J_T]

Right Tom I think small mill folks relate better because they started at -0 too. Anouther nice bunch of folks I have found is right here on the Forum I am glad I found it. Any yaull get close to here drop in.

[Bud Man]

I'll second that.   J T   Wish I had a map of all the members, I'd visit every one till I had at least mastered each ones level of BS.  Probably take at least 2-3 months. I think I'm ankle deep above some of them on the front end.

[Don P]

http://www.coxewoodfloors.com/stuart1.htm

This is the flooring mill down the mountain, they produce some nice stuff and have some pics to let you see grade. Ours is 1c red oak, all the color of the species, only sound small knots, I think $1.35 10 yrs ago. They did have a cabin grade below 2c that we could get at the mill, never used it..it looked like alot of waste. It probably all works out in the wash. The Appy Gold is black locust,a beautiful floor, these pics were taken of the floors in their offices, JEB is in the foyer, his birthplace is down the road. Inlays and custom borders are becoming a larger niche.
 http://www.coxewoodfloors.com
This is the flooring guys in town, their links page is good, they also have more grade pics.

Flooring is a high callback item if there ever was one. There will be no mercy on high MC's, and customer education is in order as far as maintaining indoor rh or expecting some movement. Just stuff to consider before hopping in.  :P

[woodman]

   Bud Man if you are going to make a tour doun't forget to see me & Wood mills and   ;D ;D all the way home

[Bud Man]

Careful bout them open invites Woodman,  Macurtis made that same mistake and It took him 4 days to run me off.   :D :D    Now as far as   ;D  ;D    I'd have to think I'd be the one being laughed at with my Southern accent when I got out of my Ka and asked for a Coke instead of a Pop.  And a trip would have to be in the summer cause " Hush Your Mouth I'm From The South " I ain't coming in the winter. :

[Corley5]

"Wish I had a map of all the members".  That would be pretty cool.  Is it possible Jeff?  

[DanG]

Jeff, scoot over to the "Tractor Tales" board at ytmag. Click on the "Talers Map" and see what they've done with it. I'm most confident that a man with your obvious skill and talent could pull it off.  Ol' "Bobduck" put that one together, so he could answer any questions you might have. 8) 8) 8) 8)

[L. Wakefield]

   I'm with y'all on the map and an open invite from my end of New England. I don't have much to show yet- no mils, just sawz, and small ones at that. And a very young woodlot. But I garntee I feed ya right and learn all I could while you wuz here. But I do like the idea of a countrywide map. Esp if I was in my truck... 8) 8) 8)   lw

[Jeff]

well, by seemingly apparent skills and talents failed to find what you were talking about other then a long thread of people saying where they were from :-/ Got some better directions? Maybe an actual address? Am I looking for an actual map?

HELP!

[Bud Man]

Jeff  You got the profiles- Leave out the Michiganders :D and just put a Star on top of Michigan( We know there's a member in every town) :D and plot the rest of the members in their respective places and when I want to go on a trip I'll know where to stop and chat.  Don't include no pictures cause I never would have gone to visit Macurtis(He's Ugly) :D

[L. Wakefield]

   I'd suggest either state or town and state. Not street address. Let members e-mail each other if they are wanting to come visit and they can get specifics then.  lw

[Jeff]

I have a temporary solution here using an offsite web resource. Give me a few then look for the guest map link on the entrance page.