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Author Topic: Joinery  (Read 4561 times)

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Offline D._Frederick

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Joinery
« on: January 31, 2009, 02:19:58 PM »
Anybody using pocket hole jig systems to join face frames? Our local tool supplier had "Kreg" system on sale, so invested in one. It lookes like it will be faster than other methods, but will it work as well?

Any other uses?

Offline Dan_Shade

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Re: Joinery
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2009, 02:26:23 PM »
Fine woodworking did a comparison of different types of joints, and it's strength.  The pocket jig joints made out pretty well.
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Offline metalspinner

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Re: Joinery
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2009, 03:24:45 PM »
Face frames are a perfect candidate for pocket screw joinery.  That is what I used on my kitchen and family room cabinets.  Once the frame is glued to the cabinet, it's not going anywhere.

I would not consider the pocket screw joint to be a structural joint for things like apron/leg assemblies on tables and such.  But for light duty joints and alignment situations is great.
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Offline Don_Papenburg

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Re: Joinery
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2009, 05:32:54 PM »
I use mine more and more .   Use it to fasten risers to stair treads .
 I put door frames together with them things . cut the pockets into the piece that will fit the dadoes and glue and screw. Makes a stronger door jamb frame. 
On face frames make sure that you have the pieces held tight to the bench before you screw them up . or they might move as the screw enters the non pocketed side . Sometimes it will move back leaving a gap or it will push the faces out of alinment and you will have a slight offset.
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Offline D._Frederick

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Re: Joinery
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2009, 12:50:24 PM »
What type of screws do you keep on hand?  Do you think that you need special screws for hard wood?

Do you glue the joints?

Offline metalspinner

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Re: Joinery
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2009, 01:37:29 PM »
Those Kreg screws are the best part of the joinery.  I have begun using them as my "everyday" screw.  Lots of 1 1/2 and 1 1/4"  around.  I have not found it neccesary to use the fine thread even in harder hardwoods.

A simple jig to hold the corners square to each other and flat as the pieces are screwed is a big help.
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Offline Dodgy Loner

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Re: Joinery
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2009, 01:38:51 PM »
I would avoid drywall screws if possible.  They're too brittle for hardwood.  They work most of the time if you're careful, but they will always conspire to snap at the worst possible moment :-\.  I use McFeely's screws for most things.  They're not only much stronger and better for hardwood, they're also cheaper than screws you can get at the hardware store.  What type of screws you should use will depend on your drill bit.  Does it have a square section for the screw to rest in?  If so, use a panhead screw.  Does it have a counterbored shape?  If so, use a tapered screw.  I prefer the panhead screws since they're less likely to split the stock.

Personally, I would recommend gluing the joints.  There's a lot of information out there that says glues don't hold well in end grain, but modern yellow glues actually do a better job than you might think if the joint is clamped properly (and the pocket screws will clamp them wonderfully).  The glue will keep the joint from separating as years of expansion and contraction cycles eventually cause the screws to loosen their grip on the wood.
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Offline Larry

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Re: Joinery
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2009, 01:44:39 PM »
Iíve been using the Kreg jig for I guess 6 or so years.  Three sets of kitchen cabinets along with a bunch of other stuff.  I even use them for utility drawers.  Not one failure as of yet.  On the other hand itís not really a fine craftsman joint or something that you would use on heirloom furniture.

Kreg makes either fine thread for hardwood or coarse thread screws for softwood.  There are also some specialty types for MDF.  Lowes carries a selection of them, so easy to get.  I usually order mind from McFeelys...do a google and they should show up.  I do glue the joints but in most cases it is end grain, so in reality the glue does little or nothing.

I see two other folks posted with me slow typing...I need a sexatary. ;D
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

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Re: Joinery
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2009, 07:43:02 PM »
...I need a sexatary. ;D


Well, Larry, least you don't need a dictionary... :D

Online WDH

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Re: Joinery
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2009, 08:23:58 PM »
Pocket screws are great.  They make for a very strong joint when used with glue.  I use them for making dust panels in chest-of-drawers and attachingt internal drawer slide supports. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Offline zopi

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Re: Joinery
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2009, 10:43:11 PM »
I use pocket screws and biscuits alot...
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Offline Larry

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Re: Joinery
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2009, 06:47:39 AM »
Thought I would add...my first experience making face frames was not good.  I was using ash...the wood is somewhat slick and maybe the Kreg clamp wasnít clamped as tight as it needs to be.  When driving the screw home it would push the rail out just a smidgen and than a small wood nub would prevent the rail from pulling back tight to the stile.  Just a very crack but still a crack.  To solve the problem I used a pipe clamp to insure the rail stayed tight to the stile before putting the screws in.  Later I modified the Kreg clamp with a pad of sandpaper and still later I found a special clamp that pulls the rail to the stile.  Think it may have been used for dowel joints.

Just thought I would add my experience as it might save somebody frustration.  In no way am I trying to be negative on the Kreg jig as it is a great tool and time saver.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Offline D._Frederick

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Re: Joinery
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2009, 01:12:29 PM »
Larry,

What kind of special clamp are you using to pull the joint together? Please tell more about it.

Online WDH

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Re: Joinery
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2009, 03:55:24 PM »
I use the clamp supplied with the jig.  I have good luck with it as all the joints pull tight.  But, I have not used it on ash.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Offline Larry

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Re: Joinery
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2009, 06:38:10 PM »
D, I found this clamp in the Grizzly catalog that is similar to the ones I have.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/g8834

My clamps were made long before Grizzly was born and look to be a little heavier.  They are still packed away and stored in my container so I could not take a picture.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Offline ksu_chainsaw

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Re: Joinery
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2009, 10:42:39 AM »
I love pocket hole jointery.  I use it more and more every day.  I have this clamp:

http://www.grizzly.com/outlet/H6679

It works great for face frames, especially if it is a wider one where you can drill 3 holes- put the clamp in the center hole, then attach the two outside screws.

I have always glued the joints, even in end grain.  I found that it made it easier to slide the piece into position before clamping, and it would fill in small imperfections or gaps on the joint.

One of the tools on my purchase (wish) list is a pocket hole cutter machine, but not for the $800 that Kreg wants for their small one- ouch.  Oh well, still have the wife to run the drill while I put other parts together LOL

charles

Offline D._Frederick

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Re: Joinery
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2009, 03:40:13 PM »
I was wondering how well the Kreg vice-grip clamp with the big round faces work? I have a number of that style clamp from HF that I use for welding.  I could cut-off some rounds from a 2 inch shaft and weld them to vice-grips, would save me about $35 a shot.

Offline ksu_chainsaw

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Re: Joinery
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2009, 07:21:43 PM »
I never spent the money on the Kreg clamps.  I had one that came with the jig, which stayed attached to the jig most of the time.  I took several LARGE washers and welded them to a pair of vise grip clamps then glued some rubber to it to pad it to prevent scratches- worked fine for me.

Charles

Offline metalspinner

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Re: Joinery
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2009, 10:56:04 PM »
Those clamps from Kreg work well.  I also use a drill press table vise grip type clamp. ::)  It is installed on a plywood jig near a 90 degree corner .  I clamp the two pieces down to the plywood with it to hold everything together.
I do what the little voices in my wife's head tell me to do.

Offline D._Frederick

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Re: Joinery
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2009, 07:18:29 PM »
The last time I was in HF they had the deep style vice grips on sale for $3.50/each, so I bought 3 to modify to look like those from Kreg. Today I cut some rounds from a piece of 1 1/2 inch shafting and tack welded them to the vice grips. I found that my stick welding needs improvement, I have been putting off buying an auto darkening face shield.

What would you recommend for a shield?  Would you risk buying a shield from HF or that type?  A American mfg hood start over $100 for the bottom of line.


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