Cutting 1 X 4 cedar boards with one live edge.

oklalogdog · January 13, 2014, 04:28:29 PM

OK here's the deal. I have been asked to make a bid on sawing approximately 1500 linear feet of 1 X 4 ERC boards with one live edge for trim in a new commercial building. Don't have a clue how to price it. The local lumber yard gets .99 cents per foot for kiln dried 1 X 4 WRC. Lowe's (25 miles away) gets .60 per foot for the same, but neither of these have a live edge. Plus - he wants the live edge debarked and sanded. The place is going to get a lot of traffic and could be a tremendous amount of advertisement and could lead to more jobs. This would actually be my first sawing job.

Would appreciate your help if anyone has some ideas. Don't be shy - just tell me what you think.

POSTON WIDEHEAD · January 13, 2014, 04:38:38 PM

Hey Dog......are you gonna be doing the debarking and sanding?

beenthere · January 13, 2014, 05:02:01 PM

Random lengths?
What grade? or clear?
What range in width on the 4" spec?

Off the top of my head, I'd be at least double the local yard, and would think triple would fly.
The sanding is going to limit other producers.
But up to you, as you have to figure the risk of losing the bid too (and maybe to someone who doesn't figure in the sanding or the grade requirements).

thecfarm · January 13, 2014, 05:25:13 PM

Are the logs cut? Seem like POSTON has done live edge. You HAVE to handle the logs carefully. I would even think getting the logs out of the woods would be hard. If a log comes up against another tree or a rock,it could damage the live edge. I have skided some cedar out of the woods. Even dragging it on the ground will damage the live edge. Even limbing the tree out the chain saw guy would have to be careful about not getting into the live edge of the tree.Even turning on your mill you have to be careful. By the way CAREFUL takes time,meaning money.

POSTON WIDEHEAD · January 13, 2014, 05:33:58 PM

Yep....Cedar bark is like a baby's skin. I like to use straps when pulling Cedar from the woods. Even when I put the logs on the tractor forks, I will roll it on the forks with my LOGRITE cant hook using the hooks on the end of the logs.

I just do this when I need to protect the bark from being banged up and skint. (is this a word? :

)

oklalogdog · January 13, 2014, 05:34:14 PM

Poston - yep I'm the debarker and sander, but then again - just one live edge wouldn't be all that tuff.

POSTON WIDEHEAD · January 13, 2014, 05:39:55 PM

Quote from: oklalogdog on January 13, 2014, 05:34:14 PM
Poston - yep I'm the debarker and sander, but then again - just one live edge wouldn't be all that tuff.

No....it want be that tuff at all. Just take your time....it'll be fun and it'll get your name out to other potential customers. $$$
Post us a few pics too.....you know how nosey we are. :

oklalogdog · January 13, 2014, 05:42:04 PM

The cfarm - yeah - I have enough logs cut for this project. We have a lot of drought killed cedar here killed over the past two years. We've been gathering logs for a log home and work shop. It's just driving me crazy - I really want the job because it will be a huge Vet clinic and hordes of locals will be going in and out. But, he's already pulling the "but if" card and saying he'll just use 1 X 4 pine and stain it if I'm too high. I dunno - I'll just have to sleep on it I guess.

I agree with Poston - should be worth 3 times what Locals want for 1 X 4s - ya can't buy this stuff in the lumber yard.

oklalogdog · January 13, 2014, 05:46:11 PM

Been There - it will be random lengths ( whatever the logs are) and 4 - 6 inch widths. No grade at all - just no splits. He wants it rough on the live edge - rougher the better - just no bark.

oklalogdog · January 13, 2014, 05:59:23 PM

Aha! ;D Light bulb just went off. We have horses, cattle, and dogs and visit him regularly. Might just make him a barter deal for so many dollars worth of vet services. Bet he will jump on it like a red eared perch on a redworm.

dchiapin · January 13, 2014, 06:01:20 PM

I know we shouldn't do this very often, that is "do a cool job for cheap" - but - it might just bring you tons of saw jobs.
I have a fairly large native plant nursery and a local vet clinic had to be moved because of a road widening project. After they built this really nice facility, they wanted a bid on the landscaping. We did the job by selling them the plant material for wholesale and direct costs for installation. The clincher was we got to put signage up advertising our nursery. They agreed and that job has been the cheapest advertisement locally that we have ever done. Didn't make much on the job, but sure didn't loose any either. That job has paid itself back many many times.
Your right a lot of local people go to a vet clinic with their pets, etc. I'll bet a lot of them have trees that someday will need to be sawn into beautiful lumber.
I would jump at this opportunity to help them out and (of course) your own sawmill business.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Good luck.

oklalogdog · January 13, 2014, 06:33:33 PM

Thanks dchiapin - I really think this barter deal might be the way to go. He will be out no money up front and we will get our money back in services. I'm sure he'll go for it. Good Lord we spent $150 with him 2 days ago. Dog had nearly 400 porcupine quills on his head, face, legs, and neck. Even a hundred or so in his mouth. Worst I've ever seen.

thecfarm · January 13, 2014, 06:51:14 PM

OUCH!! How's the poor dog doing? :(

dchiapin · January 13, 2014, 07:08:35 PM

we have always done barter, but you need to be on the same page. Example wholesale vs wholesale, not wholesale vs full retail, that is a disadvantage to all involved. Suggestion: give him the high price for barter, that puts you both on the same page. Also ask if you can place some small signage on the live edge job. Looks like a win - win situation for both of you.
Enjoy
Dave

Peter Drouin · January 13, 2014, 07:13:20 PM

I have done a lot of live edge w pine, and it will take just as long to debark as to cut it. And that's with a jig to hold the board live edge up so you can use a draw knife. Good luck

oklalogdog · January 13, 2014, 07:15:41 PM

dchiapin - sounds like a plan!

oklalogdog · January 13, 2014, 07:19:58 PM

thecfarm - Dog is hanging in there and that's about it. He's drinking but not eating. Probably gonna lose one eye. Here's the deal - there were 3 dogs involved in this event and two had to go to the vet. Porcupines and dogs don't mix. My brother in law and I picked quills out of them for nearly three hours but when it got to the roof of the mouth, tongue, and throat - we were out of our league - time to go to the vet.

oklalogdog · January 13, 2014, 07:28:19 PM

dchiapin - this brings up the main problem - I'm not sure what retail is in my area as nobody does this kind of stuff. I'm thinking .80 cents a linear foot since he will take any grade with knots as long as there are no splits. What do you guys think of this?

thecfarm · January 13, 2014, 07:30:55 PM

I've pulled them out of my dog Boo-Boo. But only up to about 60. My wife's son was here with his girlfriend. They was up late,midnight. Boo-Boo wanted to come in and I think she let him in. She let a shout out,what's ails him? Porkypine quills,welcome to the family. She was a city girl too. I went and got the pliers and started to pull. No vet that time.
He did go once. He got mixed up with a baby one. They have quills just about as thin as your hair. I had to go buy a pait of pliers that would close tight. Some was inside his mouth.I did not have any. Got all but 3 out. I could see them,but as soon as I touched them he would jerk his head in pain.And to make it worse they was down where his mouth was black and the quills was black too.

dchiapin · January 13, 2014, 07:33:35 PM

talk to a local cabinet maker, he might be able to help you. Even though this isn't exactly fine cabinetry work, it might get you an idea about custom work in your area.

beenthere · January 13, 2014, 07:36:12 PM

Quote from: oklalogdog on January 13, 2014, 07:28:19 PM
dchiapin - this brings up the main problem - I'm not sure what retail is in my area as nobody does this kind of stuff. I'm thinking .80 cents a linear foot since he will take any grade with knots as long as there are no splits. What do you guys think of this?

If you are content with 80 cents, then that is what you should go forward with, IMO.

isawlogs · January 13, 2014, 08:09:57 PM

Seeing as there is no local outlet that carries the live edge they are looking for and having done some in the past, you would be better going to a 1.50$ 1.75$\linear foot then lower. The live edge sanding will not be as easy as you may think. the ends of the boards, if they are using for trim, do they expect them to match... just asking. If so, not a big deal but more time, I had a template and would match the ends for angle and width.
I sawed my logs through and through and then resawd them on my table saw to the width my customer wanted with a gig the I had put together as to rip one side of the board to get a peice, then turning and resecuring the board to resaw the other side and scrapping out the center.
I like said, I would cost it out higher then lower, its a pile of work. ;)

red oaks lumber · January 13, 2014, 08:50:17 PM

when i make wavey edge trim i make a "d"log the size you need on the mill, turn the bark edge up clamp it then draw knife the face, flip it back on the side and thru cut the cant. remove, repeat the next log.far as price goes? i would think somewhere .80 -1.00 per l.f.

Ianab · January 13, 2014, 08:53:39 PM

Rather than working the from the "retail cost", work from the other end.

What's it going to cost YOU to produce the boards.
What's the tree worth?
Your time and equipment to log it?
Milling cost?
Then the extra processing with the debarking and sanding? Obviously a spokeshave is cheaper to run than a sawmill, but you don't wont to be working for $2 an hour or something silly.

Now you have a cost price for the finished product. If they can buy it for less from someone else, then it's best to walk away, unless you really NEED the work. If you can add a bit of profit on for the "custom work" factor, then you do that after you have worked out the costs. Likewise if you want to discount for the high profile "free advertising" thing, then work that out from your standard price so you can show he is getting a deal for letting you put a little sign by the wall.

I'd even consider processing a small log anyway, just to see how long it would actually take to make ~100 ft of the product. Then you can show the guy a couple of sample boards with your quote and make sure that's what he's actually after.

Ian