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Author Topic: linseed oil as end seal????  (Read 4000 times)

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Offline charles mann

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linseed oil as end seal????
« on: September 16, 2018, 09:18:39 PM »
 any poor side effects of using boiled linseed oil and wax as an end seal? 

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Offline btulloh

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2018, 09:35:14 PM »
Seems like it would work with the right mixture.  Not sure it would save money but it could fill up some spare time.  :)
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Offline teakwood

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2018, 08:49:17 AM »
why the oil?

i know a big sawmill here that uses melted wax to endseal the lumber
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Offline GeneWengert-WoodDoc

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2018, 07:29:38 AM »
The oil will penetrate the end grain and discolor the end of lighter colored woods.  So even though the end might be check free, because the wax slows the drying, significant end trim will be needed to remove discolored and oily wood.  If not end trimmed to remove all the oil, then the oil will interfere with gluing and water-based finishes.

A product like AnchorSeal does evaporate whenever the kiln goes over 130 F, so there is no carry-over into the dry product.
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Offline IMERC

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2018, 08:22:27 AM »
The oil will penetrate the end grain and discolor the end of lighter colored woods.


I've heard of used motor oil being used as an end grain sealer... this strikes me as an all around really dumber idea...
what is your take?
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2018, 10:48:27 AM »
I've heard of used motor oil being used as an end grain sealer... this strikes me as an all around really dumber idea... what is your take?


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Offline IMERC

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2018, 11:04:13 AM »
I've heard of used motor oil being used as an end grain sealer... this strikes me as an all around really dumber idea... what is your take?


Penny wise and pound foolish. :-X

thought as much...
wax it is...
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Offline charles mann

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2018, 04:40:22 PM »
Does Anchor/end seal have to be reapplied after a few months? 
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Offline GeneWengert-WoodDoc

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2018, 05:31:00 PM »
A properly applied (that means thick enough) coating will last a year or more unless heated to over 130 F.
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Offline charles mann

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Offline GeneWengert-WoodDoc

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2018, 08:28:06 PM »
Another popular product (95 % of my clients use it instead of other products) that is widely used is AnchorSeal from UC Coatings in Buffalo, NY.  It can be purchased with or without antifreeze.  It can be applied with brush, roller or sprayer.  The wax melts around 130 F.  It comes in various colors.
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2018, 06:24:10 AM »
Another popular product (95 % of my clients use it instead of other products) that is widely used is AnchorSeal from UC Coatings in Buffalo, NY.  It can be purchased with or without antifreeze.  It can be applied with brush, roller or sprayer.  The wax melts around 130 F.  It comes in various colors.


AnchorSeal is the bomb. Works great, lots of color options, great people to deal with, fast shipping. What's not to love?
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Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2018, 11:22:43 PM »
I picked up a pair of 330 gallon IBCs for a friend to use to hold water for when they do open burns.  These were "very dirty" and free.  They had wax chunks in them along with a milky fluid.  Turns out it is concrete sealer for fresh concrete to hold the moisture in so it can cure.  Its a wax emulsion, probably pretty close to Anchorseal.  I had to use a 3 foot extension on my paint mixer chucked up in my drill to re-constitute it.  I now have 44 gallons and no hardwood to use it on :-\  I'll probably use it on the aspen when I get around to cutting that for my flooring.
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Offline farmfromkansas

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2018, 07:43:17 AM »
Brought home a couple walnut logs 3 days ago, the ends are still wet.  How long can I wait to seal them?
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Offline WDH

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2018, 08:03:28 AM »
You have already waited too long.  Best practice is to seal them immediately after felling. 
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Offline GeneWengert-WoodDoc

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2018, 08:13:16 AM »
In general, it is best to seal logs yesterday.  Once checking starts, even if small, it becomes harder to control 100% with proper end sealing.

The coating must retard almost all moisture loss so that the ends do not dry before sawing into lumber.  The coating also must stick to the wood tightly to be effective.  It should be obvious that log ends with sap, dirt, mud, ice or snow have to be cleaned so the end is all wood...that is, it does no good to end coat sap, dirt, mud, ice or snow- -we want to coat the wood!
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Offline moodnacreek

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2018, 12:42:06 PM »
If you don't want to spend $, try old latex paint and paper. The idea is to keep the moisture in.

Offline jimbarry

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2018, 03:08:06 PM »
Old latex paint as mentioned above. But i was late getting them painted, about a week before I got to painting them.





 

Been sitting a year now, no end checks.



 

Come to learn though that red paint apparently contains a lot of mineral. It would spark when starting each cut. Dulled the blades faster too.



 


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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2018, 03:21:22 PM »
14 months later



 

 
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Offline WDH

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2018, 04:48:57 PM »
Some species end check way worse than others.  Latex paint, in my experience, has yielded poor results.  Don't skimp if you want quality boards without end splitting and use anchorseal.  There is no instant pudding when it comes to sealing logs.  The right stuff applied immediately after felling is the best way to go.  I have not found a witches brew that works yet. 
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Offline GeneWengert-WoodDoc

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2018, 05:22:53 PM »
Some latex paint, especially interior non-gloss, breathes too much.  Anchorseal only costs about $5 per MBF of logs coated.  This is a small cost for quality logs like cherry, walnut, hard maple, oak, etc.  Note that some species have a greater risk of end checks than other species. 

In any case, coating ASAP is critical because coating prevents checks but does have much effect on slowing existing checks.
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Offline farmfromkansas

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2018, 06:55:22 AM »
Do the log end sealers adhere to the log ends when they are saturated with water?  When I brought the walnut logs home, water seemed to be pouring out.  Figured the end would have to dry a bit before anything would stick.  Certainly latex paint would have had problems.
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Offline GeneWengert-WoodDoc

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2018, 08:32:47 AM »
Because Anchorseal is in water, it will stick to a wet end, but water pressure from the inside, often from bacterial infected wood, can blow the coating off.  I suggest coating as soon as possible and then repairing any coating that comes off.  With an valuable species like walnut, you can afford the cost of a good end sealer, like Anchorseal, and afford giving the ends a second coat.  Be careful however in freezing temperatures, as the exuded water can freeze and the Anchorseal will coat the ice but not the wood.
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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2018, 12:11:18 AM »
This discussion has come up a lot.  Anchorseal is not expensive when factored into the cost/board foot.  Nothing works as well.  It applies very smoothly as a water based wax formula, and dries rather quickly leaving a good wax coating.  Just get Anchorseal and stop being penny wise and pound foolish.  You'll lose more in wood defects from not using Anchorseal than you'd ever save trying to use something else. I think Anchorseal comes in as little as a quart, but I couldn't ever see getting it in that small of a quantity.  I buy it 5 gallons at a time.  

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Offline nybhh

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2018, 01:32:26 AM »
Like everyone else,  I have used Anchorseal(2) almost exclusively and like it a lot.

HOWEVER, I ran out recently and tapped into some leftover end sealant I had from an ipe deck I built a few years ago.  The lumber supplier included a quart with my order and I had just enough lefover to coat the ends of a couple of logs.  

Anyway, the stuff went on much thicker than Anchorseal and although it is too soon to tell if it works better, I think I prefer it and a single coat feels about like a double coat of anchorsel.   It cost about the same for a 5-gallon pail and I have NO affiliation with this company although their deck oil is great too.

https://www.deckwise.com/ipe-seal-end-grain-sealant.html
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Offline Tom the Sawyer

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2018, 12:15:02 PM »
nybhh,

I checked out the link.  They say that it is applied at a rate of 500 square feet per quart.  AnchorSeal recommends 100 square feet per gallon.  Do you get anything near 500 square feet of coverage per quart?
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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2018, 12:52:55 PM »
Thats a good question.  If my numbers are right.  An 18 diameter circle is 1.75 sf per side so 3.5 sf per log.  Would a full quart have covered 142 logs?  No way.  

I usually slather it in with an old chip brush and just based on the thicker consistency, I think it might  cover less based on my application methods but at 100sf per gallon, your only getting 28 of those logs per gallon with Anchorseal and that seems a little low for me maybe?  

Hmmm, I think coverage is probably about the same if your painting it on. Hard to say though because I didnt have that much left and I tend to make a mess with that stuff when its cold and Im in a hurry  :o

Edit:  I just re-read their website and I think they are recommending 1 qt per 500sf of DECK.  Assuming a 10 x 50 deck of 5/4x6s. That 50 of length is going to give you about:
50 x 12(inches per foot) x 1 (thick) x 2 sides = 8 sf per quart or 32 sf per gallon?  It goes a lot further than that on large surfaces and went further than that on my deck.
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Offline charles mann

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2021, 06:08:45 PM »
Dredging up an older thread. I rescued a big pecan and got 3 gal of anchorseal 2 from amazon. I used a whole gallon on 1 log, the biggest log too, but still, 1 gal on 1 log with 4 cuts to seal. At what point do you stop applying the sealant? I started on 1 end, worked my way around, then when i went back, i noticed the end i started on didnt look like i applied nothing more than water to it. So i reapplied till it stopped sucking the sealant up. 

Did i use to much? 

Iv got 4 or 5 more logs i need to coat, and iv read at least 2 coats, but at what point? 1st coat, let dry in 3-4 hrs, then reapply or apply till it stops soaking in? 

Since the logs have been down 3-4 days, im gonna water the ends several times once i get them relocated off the ground and within reach of the hose, then apply the sealant to the damp ends. 

Any advise is appreciated. 
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Offline GeneWengert-WoodDoc

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2021, 10:13:53 PM »
With Anchorseal, the thickness of the coating is not a big issue.  A thin continuous coating is adequate.  Two thin coatings will assure a continuous coating.
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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2021, 11:01:51 PM »
With Anchorseal, the thickness of the coating is not a big issue.  A thin continuous coating is adequate.  Two thin coatings will assure a continuous coating.
So i kinda over did the application. I know the log didnt have 100sf of surface area. 
Im hopping the last 2 gallons of sealant will be enough for the remaining 5 logs. 
I did get a gal of elastomeric polymer roofing coating from a box store for the other not so critical logs. 
Thanks for the insight. 
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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2021, 08:37:55 AM »
I have never ever seen anchorseal, less used it.

we use melted candle wax, as cheap as it gets, just one coat.

the only negative point is you need a little heater (cookplate, spiral warmer, camping burner,...) then you need to handle the hot wax, but if you overcome these obstacles it's really easy and cheap. but if i read you guys having to apply 2 coats of a very expensive product then it looks alot better for the wax.

Side note: the hotter the wax the better, should smoke out of the pot when you take it off the fire. then it sucks it right into the wood fiber  
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Offline charles mann

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2021, 11:24:10 AM »
I have never ever seen anchorseal, less used it.

we use melted candle wax, as cheap as it gets, just one coat.

the only negative point is you need a little heater (cookplate, spiral warmer, camping burner,...) then you need to handle the hot wax, but if you overcome these obstacles it's really easy and cheap. but if i read you guys having to apply 2 coats of a very expensive product then it looks alot better for the wax.

Side note: the hotter the wax the better, should smoke out of the pot when you take it off the fire. then it sucks it right into the wood fiber  
An oxy/acet cutting rig provides a portable source of heat, and could melt larger batches. 
I have used linseed oil and bees wax  in the past and it seems to work. Id have to do a financial analysis between wax, wax and oil, and anchor seal. Some here thinks its being cheap and pinching pennies, but that is their opinion. 
The upside to anchor seal or of similar sealants is its portability and application compared to wax or wax/oil a d needing a heat source to melt/mix then concoction together. 
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Offline WDH

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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2021, 08:27:32 AM »
This brings up a thought.producing high quality finished lumber consistently takes the right processes, procedures, and equipment. If you only ever produce one board, then nothing matters much as you can even hew it out by hand, let it air dry covered, bring it inside a heated and cooled space for three months to finish drying, and plane it down by hand to finished thickness.  You can get by with minimal equipment and expense.

Now, what if you had to do one million boards?

So, it you are producing many boards consistently, a quality end sealer like anchor seal becomes a vital, significantly important part of the process and home brew methods, while cheaper, will have you throwing dollars to save pennies in loss of time and efficiency.

It all depends on which cat you are trying to skin.
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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2021, 09:04:55 AM »
An oxy/acet cutting rig provides a portable source of heat, and could melt larger batches


I bought a small one pan electrical spiral heater for like 15$ new, it still works, but i do small batches at the time 
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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2021, 11:34:30 AM »
Even if my slabbing mill was complete there is little chance of me ever producing millions of BF. 

The home brew iv done in the past may not be a water based sealant but its still a sealant and the wood i coated it with has lasted 3 yrs and the wax is still covering the ends and looking at the diff between the untreated is drastically different in end cracking within the same species from the same logs. 

Im not saying 1 is any better or worse than the other im not pushing one way or the other for hm brew or commercial, oil or water based sealant and one is no cheaper than the other to buy or make. 


An oxy/acet cutting rig provides a portable source of heat, and could melt larger batches


I bought a small one pan electrical spiral heater for like 15$ new, it still works, but i do small batches at the time

Not sure how small of a batch you are talking, but iv made 3 gal batches and wasnt near an elec source so dragging the torch set over was easy and i also used the stove in the house. 
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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2021, 06:40:12 PM »
I find I have troubles drying wood that customers bring in that is sealed with paint. I think that it bocks the vacuum from drawing the moisture out of the end of the wood. the anchorseal or nothing is the best. The anchor seal will melt and now the moisture will come out. 
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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2021, 07:11:57 PM »
I find I have troubles drying wood that customers bring in that is sealed with paint. I think that it bocks the vacuum from drawing the moisture out of the end of the wood. the anchorseal or nothing is the best. The anchor seal will melt and now the moisture will come out.
You trying to dry a whole log or do they paint the entire the surface of the boards? I dont see how painting just the ends, even if the paint leeches 2-3 in on each end, prevents the rest of the wood from drying. 
Plus im not looking at painting, im talking bout linseed oil (is a wood sealant in the first place) and wax, or anchorseal. 
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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2021, 07:38:07 PM »
Linseed oil may be thought of as a wood sealer, but it is not a vapor barrier sealer like wax.. water vapor still moves through linseed oil coating.
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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2021, 08:02:55 PM »
Linseed oil may be thought of as a wood sealer, but it is not a vapor barrier sealer like wax.. water vapor still moves through linseed oil coating.
That is why the wax is melted in with the oil. To cover the ends to lessen the evaporation.
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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2021, 07:35:28 AM »
Something kind of related I've observed. On large timbers and logs, a coat of linseed oil or similar does slow the surface drying down. Coating the whole thing helps especially in the early framing when sun and wind are working over green timbers.
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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2021, 08:54:18 AM »
I find I have troubles drying wood that customers bring in that is sealed with paint. I think that it bocks the vacuum from drawing the moisture out of the end of the wood. the anchorseal or nothing is the best. The anchor seal will melt and now the moisture will come out.
You trying to dry a whole log or do they paint the entire the surface of the boards? I dont see how painting just the ends, even if the paint leeches 2-3 in on each end, prevents the rest of the wood from drying.
Plus im not looking at painting, im talking bout linseed oil (is a wood sealant in the first place) and wax, or anchorseal.
It is just an observation when I am dring thick slabs. 10/4 . Not a whole log. 
Fact? I do not really know, I remember reading somewhere about a vacuum kiln will move moisture out thru the capilieries and such is why a vacuum kiln will dry faster, and with less degrade. If I trim the ends of a log, saw it, and then put it in the kiln same day, it will come out with no checking. 
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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2021, 09:24:41 AM »
Appreciate that the hollow, long wood cells are only 3 to 5 mm long, with little tiny holes connecting one cell to another.  So, lengthwise liquid moisture movement in most species is fairly limited.  In fact, with white oak, we can store whiskey in a barrel for over a year and have little loss, unless there is a crack between the staves.

What happens in vacuum drying is that the water boils at lower and lower temperatures as the vacuum increases.  When water boils, we have vapor that can flow along the cells and also, due to pressure flow through the little holes between cells and work it way to the surface.
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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2021, 01:57:05 PM »
Thanks Gene, It seems I was close but did not really know the why. Now I do.
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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2021, 01:44:04 PM »
@GeneWengert-WoodDoc @Stephen1 

How deep from the end cuts on average do end sealers, be it paint, oil or latex, anchorseal or other wax emulsion based sealants extend into the lumber and into the cellulose structure? 
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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2021, 07:58:01 AM »
@GeneWengert-WoodDoc @Stephen1

How deep from the end cuts on average do end sealers, be it paint, oil or latex, anchorseal or other wax emulsion based sealants extend into the lumber and into the cellulose structure?



Good question. When I have cut the painted ends off, I only take an 1" and do not see the paint on the cut.
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Re: linseed oil as end seal????
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2021, 08:26:15 AM »
2 cells deep on a good day. I think Gene's post was meant to say 3-5mm. The tiny little holes between cells, "pit pairs" between cells will let solutions through to some degree but won't pass stuff the size of suspended particles like paint. The vast majority of those pits and the cells themselves are already dead and blocked before the tree is felled so are low permeability. I've rarely had trouble sanding through even "deep penetrating" finishes in short order.

As far as I can tell though, spilled purple plumbing pipe primer will go to the bone in seconds  ???
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