l200 power requirements

[kanoak]

Aloha, I am looking at my options for placement of a kiln and haven't found much info on the power requirements for the l200 units. So my initial question is what is the max draw for a base unit as well for the supplemental heater. I would prefer to site this off-grid and those parameters will help me ballpark generating capacity needed to see if my site is realistic.
Aloha,
Kanoa

[firefighter ontheside]

I would think what you need to know is in this data sheet.  @K-Guy 
https://www.nyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/NDK-L200-Sales-Sheet-2021.pdf

[kanoak]

Thank you firefighter, that's just what I was looking for. Looks like 10kw with aux heat running. As a followup, how about the unit without heat. And this is for @K-Guy, is it possible to run the unit intermittently, say sleeping at night and resuming? Something like a pause/resume in the controller that I could control remotely.

[firefighter ontheside]

The way I understand it, the aux heat doesn't run at the same time with the compressor.

[YellowHammer]

I run a 100 amp, 220 feed to a 60 amp service breaker.  You'll also need a separate breaker for the baffle fans.  

Why do you want to run intermittently?  The unit has a controller, and only runs the compressor when the WB and DB set points are hit.  The dryer the wood, the less it runs. The L200 can run the strips and the compressor simultaneously, the L53 can not.  In order to save energy, its best to let the compressor use its regenerative heat to dry wood and keep the kiln at the proper temperature.  

[bushhog920]

Two times you run the heat strips. 1 to get the temp to around 100°f at start-up. 2 at the end of cycle to heat treat you turn compressor off and heat strips on.

[K-Guy]

Sorry for the delay but I had a bug on Friday, probably something I ate and nothing serious.The L200 power requirements are:
1) the unit requires a 35 amp breaker pulling at most 25-30 amp at peak draw( compressor and heater running at the start of a green load) on as Yellowhammer said on a separate circuit.
2) the circulating fans require 3.5 amps each and pulling 2-3 amps each in operate( again more with green wood).
3 the heat booster if you have it requires a 30 amp breaker pulling 2 amp max usually.

Remember the breaker requirements take into account maximum possible draw if everything starts at once.

I hope this helps.

[kanoak]

Thank you @K-Guy and all.
@YellowHammer  - I am looking at the option of running this off-grid; used solar panels are available to me cheep/free as people upgrade for higher output panels. Batteries are still expensive, so even if it took significantly longer it would be economically advantageous to be able to run the kiln with the smallest battery bank possible. Therefore, if I were able to control the run/pause state with a timer or another controller, I can power the kiln with a large generating area, coupled with the smallest bank necessary.
I am also pondering the benefits of some solar-thermal to offset some of the electrical requirements; so the info on the heat is useful.

[K-Guy]

If you wanted to and the moisture content was lower you could turn it off at night and back on during the day but you would need to leave the circulating fans on.

I have never heard of a good way to combine a solar kiln with a DH kiln. That sounds like something for the fevered mind of a certain yellow engineer I know!  ;D

[K-Guy]

The way I understand it, the aux heat doesn't run at the same time with the compressor.

That is only on the L53 not the L200.

[firefighter ontheside]

Understood.  Thanks for letting me know.  Eventually I will buy a 53, but won't need a 200.

[wkf94025]

The L200 power requirements are:
1) the unit requires a 35 amp breaker pulling at most 25-30 amp at peak draw (compressor and heater running at the start of a green load) on a separate circuit.
2) the circulating fans require 3.5 amps each and pulling 2-3 amps each in operate (again more with green wood).
3) the heat booster if you have it requires a 30 amp breaker pulling 2 amp max usually.

Remember the breaker requirements take into account maximum possible draw if everything starts at once.

If you wanted to and the moisture content was lower you could turn it off at night and back on during the day but you would need to leave the circulating fans on.

I have never heard of a good way to combine a solar kiln with a DH kiln. That sounds like something for the fevered mind of a certain yellow engineer I know!  ;D

I am looking at the option of running this off-grid...Therefore, if I were able to control the run/pause state with a timer or another controller, I can power the kiln with [PV array].  I am also pondering the benefits of some solar-thermal to offset some of the electrical requirements; so the info on the heat is useful.

[Sorry the quote order is backwards.]

Thanks for all the helpful info on Nyle energy consumption.  Like @kanoak, I would like to combine a Nyle DH appliance with PV energy, and my already-built-and-functional Wengert-inspired solar kilns.  They are both ~2,500 BF capacity, dimensioned 22' long x 8' tall (tall end of roof) x 5' wide, with 37 degree dual-pane polycarbonate roofs facing South.  I baked Doug Fir last summer very effectively, entirely off grid, using cheap Honeywell dehumidifiers, temp-triggered exhaust fans, smart WiFi switches on everything, and multiple weather station temp and humidity sensors in each kiln, tied to my phone.  It was quite energy efficient, driven entirely by a 7kW PV array with ~7kWh lithium battery.  The constant micro-managing by phone apps is a level of babysitting I'd like to solve for, and Nyle L200M is seriously being considered.  I would join the two kilns end to end, with Nyle hub in the center, much like their 40' container layout plan.  I'd *like* to avoid big electrical bills from evil PG&E, by limiting power-hungry Nyle activities to sunny hours/days.  Hoping @K-Guy can opine on programmability of the L200M brain, as I wish to manage drying entirely remotely, being an hour away most of the time.  This winter our wet storm cycle has greatly impacted solar gain, but busting this drought is far more important.  I have 1x and 2x redwood currently in the kilns, with inside temp not much above outside, and RH quite high.  Nyle says 6-8 weeks to delivery, which is annoying but not a deal-killer, and not unexpected.  

My #1 question for @K-Guy is whether L200M + DIY Solar is a bad combo?  Or is it simply that solar gain is belt-and-suspenders with the Nyle heater?  My site is now grid-tied, and using PG&E to power drying probably pencils, but trying to manage my carbon footprint while also flipping PG&E the middle finger.

My gallery has a dozen photos overviewing my operation.  Two kiln shots included here.







  

[YellowHammer]

I have never heard of a good way to combine a solar kiln with a DH kiln. That sounds like something for the fevered mind of a certain yellow engineer I know!  ;D

In order to run a hybrid DH you have to consider that there are two completely different stages occurring when wood dries.  

The first is that heat must be added to the system to get the water to evolve out of the wood.  The wood must me heated, I.e. energy must be applied to the wood to get the internal unbound and bound moisture to come out of the wood.  In addition, fans must be used to provide a means for the moisture to combine with the moisture carrier, the air, and to provide consistency of airflow, and thus proper mixing, throughout the stack.

As cool air is heated, it's moisture carrying capacity multiplies, and so heated air causes moisture to come out of the wood, and it also causes moisture to be absorbed and carried.

At that point, the many gallons of water, in the form of moist air, must be continously removed from the control volume of the kiln chamber in a controlled manner.  Too slow and the wood will sticker stain, too fast, and the wood will check and crack. One of the weak points of a solar kiln is that it has a tendency to sticker stain white wood, as the DB/WB depression of 10 or more should always be maintained, especially when the MC of the wood is 25% and over.  It doesn't matter how the moist air removal occurs, but it must be done.  In the case of a solar kiln, the heated air is removed via the manual vents during the daytime solar cycle and heat is continuously added by the sun.  In a DH kiln, the moist air is removed by cooling the moisture laden air over an evaporator coil, and having the moisture condense into liquid water and exit via a drip tube, and heat is added to th system by the natural heat produced by the compressor, which, for a DH kiln and unlike an air conditioner, is mounted inside the kiln machine to provide regenerative heat.

So in order to control a hybrid, you need to control the heat (amount of water coming out of the wood, and the amount of water being absorbed by the air) and control the venting (the amount of water being removed from the kiln chamber so as to not sticker stain or check the wood), and you need to do it 24/7 or you are wasting time, electricity and risking damage to the wood.  

You could run the dehumidifier at night to maintain temps and control, then take advantage of the solar energy during the day.

The reality is that if such a system were used, and it is conventioanlly controlled off wet bulb and dry bulb, (which requires air movement via fans ) then you could use some of the native control algorithm in any of the Nyle DH systems without any problem, especially ones with automatic vents.  You would in essence be doing a power vent heat cycle for the daytime solar cycle and a DH cycle for the nocturnal hours.  However, you would need to control venting at all times, and therefore have air movement over the stacks and the WB sensor at all times, or you will loose control of the environment and will just be guessing on the EMC and moisture removal rate, as well as losing a lot of efficiency, and risk damaging the wood.  

Solar is just a way to get heat input into the wood and raise the moisture carrying capacity of the air, you could also use heat from an OWB, or use a solar absorber to a radiator, or a solar collector to a battery pack, or natural gas, or any other technique.

I would note also, that if you are controlling the venting, and thus controlling temperature, and moisture removal rate, you could greatly increase your solar collector area beyond the conventional 10:1 ratio generally recommended, and achieve much higher heat inputs.

However, in order to do this basic system, you still must have power to the fans and the vents, and the controller at all times or everything is just guessing.  

Not a problem and certainly doable.  

[wkf94025]

Quote from: YellowHammer on Sat Jan 08 2022 16:10:31 GMT-0800 (Pacific Standard Time)


In order to run a hybrid DH you have to consider that there are two completely different stages occurring when wood dries.  

The first is that heat must be added to the system to get the water to evolve out of the wood.  The wood must me heated, I.e. energy must be applied to the wood to get the internal unbound and bound moisture to come out of the wood.  In addition, fans must be used to provide a means for the moisture to combine with the moisture carrier, the air, and to provide consistency of airflow, and thus proper mixing, throughout the stack.

As cool air is heated, it’s moisture carrying capacity multiplies, and so heated air causes moisture to come out of the wood, and it also causes moisture to be absorbed and carried.

At that point, the many gallons of water, in the form of moist air, must be continuously removed from the control volume of the kiln chamber in a controlled manner.  Too slow and the wood will sticker stain, too fast, and the wood will check and crack. One of the weak points of a solar kiln is that it has a tendency to sticker stain white wood, as the DB/WB depression of 10 or more should always be maintained, especially when the MC of the wood is 25% and over.  It doesn’t matter how the moist air removal occurs, but it must be done.  <== Honeywell dehumidifier running continuously inside each kiln removes moisture from the air, and I also have the ability to rapidly dump some or all the existing air via high speed louvered vents on east and west ends.  FWIW, prevailing wind direction is from NW, so it doesn't take but 30 seconds with both end vents blowing to dump all the air, drop the RH and briefly the temperature, and resume moisture extraction from the wood. In the case of a solar kiln, the heated air is removed via the manual vents  <== My venting is temperature-switch-triggered, and pilot-(me)-triggered, as needed.  Next version will be much more automated, essentially Raspberry Pi triggered. during the daytime solar cycle and heat is continuously added by the sun.  In a DH kiln, the moist air is removed by cooling the moisture laden air over an evaporator coil, and having the moisture condense into liquid water and exit via a drip tube, <== My system is doing this now  and heat is added to the system by the natural heat produced by the compressor, which, for a DH kiln and unlike an air conditioner, is mounted inside the kiln machine to provide regenerative heat.  <== My system doing this now also, with complete ~$300 Honeywell 50 pint/day dehumidifier in each kiln.  Note I could blow up a lot of these appliances before I get to the cost of a Nyle system.

So in order to control a hybrid, you need to control the heat (amount of water coming out of the wood, and the amount of water being absorbed by the air) and control the venting (the amount of water being removed from the kiln chamber so as to not sticker stain or check the wood), and you need to do it 24/7 or you are wasting time, electricity and risking damage to the wood.  <== I have crude controls in place today for all this, just looking for more automation with better granularity in my next gen system running on a Raspberry Pi.  

You could run the dehumidifier at night to maintain temps and control, <== I am currently (winter) running dehumidifier 24x7 during early baking, and will likely use it's RH-triggered logic as I approach later steps in recipe then take advantage of the solar energy during the day.  <== Yes, every [sunny] day.

The reality is that if such a system were used, and it is conventionally controlled off wet bulb and dry bulb, (which requires air movement via fans) <== I currently run two $30 Home Depot box fans in each kiln, but now with three independent temp+humidity weather sensors, I can see I need to at least double the # of box fans for better distribution of heat and humidity  then you could use some of the native control algorithm in any of the Nyle DH systems without any problem, (or my logic on a Pi) especially ones with automatic vents.  You would in essence be doing a power vent heat cycle for the daytime solar cycle and a DH cycle for the nocturnal hours.  <== Not sure I understand why it has to be such a nocturnal / diurnal difference.  Independent of time of day, when temp exceeds current target in recipe, dump air, slowly or quickly, to bring temp and/or RH back in line with recipe.  However, you would need to control venting at all times, of course and therefore have air movement over the stacks and the WB sensor at all times, see box fan comment above or you will loose control of the environment and will just be guessing on the EMC and moisture removal rate, as well as losing a lot of efficiency, and risk damaging the wood.  

Solar is just a way to get heat input into the wood and raise the moisture carrying capacity of the air, you could also use heat from an OWB, or use a solar absorber to a radiator, or a solar collector to a battery pack, or natural gas, or any other technique.  Another side project here is rolling and unrolling insulating blankets over the tops of the solar kilns, much like you can find on youtube for greenhouse automation.  I have the motors and drive electronics and sensors, need to select blanket material and get pipe frame set up.  I currently lose plenty of heat each night without a hat on.  Of course waste heat from dehumidifiers helps, and oil-filled radiator space heaters are about to be installed as well, with WiFi-controlled on/off for those.  Goal is to conserve daytime heat overnight, and burn kWh as needed to supplement heat at night.  I like your idea of collecting additional heat elsewhere, for nighttime harvest.  I plan to migrate my house, shop and eventual cottage off propane-fired hydronic to solar-warmed-water-hydronic.  Those same insulated water tank energy stores can assist wood drying.

I would note also, that if you are controlling the venting, I am, though not as fine-grained and effortlessly as I would like and thus controlling temperature, ditto and moisture removal rate, ditto you could greatly increase your solar collector area beyond the conventional 10:1 ratio generally recommended, and achieve much higher heat inputs. Like it.

However, in order to do this basic system, you still must have power to the fans and the vents, and the controller at all times or everything is just guessing.  Re power, I have PV array + lithium storage driving overnight operational needs, with the grid as fallback on cold/cloudy/rainy stretches, which are generally rare and brief.  Re controller, that's currently me and my phone paired with temp-triggered exhaust fans and RH-triggered dehumidifiers.  Next gen controller will be all I've learned (including your input) expressed in a RTOS loop babysitting the load and keeping the temp and RH progressing down the recipe curve.  Like L200M does.  Or just set the science project aside, and buy an L200M.

Not a problem and certainly doable.  Everything you've said makes sense, and helps clarify system goals, process, monitoring, etc.  So to answer my own question, solar plus a DH system/appliance can totally play well together in the sandbox.

Thanks @YellowHammer.  My comments inline in red above.

[YellowHammer]

A  few other points to control to be aware of, and to control if possible.  

Air velocity through the stacks significantly increases drying rate, depending on the moisture content of the wood and the species.  Typical kiln airflow speeds are recommended to be 150 to 250 FPM for hardwood, and 650 FPM for softwood.  In order to maximize drying rate and reduce defect rate, the drying rate would optimally be controlled.  It is not in a stock Nyle, but is easily done with the help of an anemometer and independently switched fans.

I use Wal Mart box fans in my solar kiln and they will last for years, however, fan life and duty cycle are a function of temperate, and service life will fall off quickly at the upper temperature ranges required for post drying sterilization, which for its, is maintained temperature at 150F for 24 hours.

In my solar kiln, I can't sustain those temperatures, and will dry a load a solar and then finish it one of my Nyles.

There are not many consumer items that can tolerate that temperature for very many cycles, and I have melted and wilted the fan blades in my solar after a couple unsuccessful attempts, including destroying all my consumer wifi humidity and temperature recording devices, in my solar kiln.  So do it with caution.  For moving parts, grease will typically volatilize out at about 160F, unless the manufacturer uses high temperature grease or lubricant.

Some consumer DH units have safeties to shut them off at higher temperatures.  If I was going to build one from scratch, I would concentrate on automotive systems, they are designed for wide temperature swings, and use refrigerants that can operate under a wide range of pressures.




      

[wkf94025]

Thanks @YellowHammer .  Great stuff.  What are the dimensions of your solar kiln, and how many box fans of what approximate size do you use for recirc airflow?  These cheap box fans typically have 3 speeds.  Do you run high speed, low speed, variable?

Well aware of sterilization parameters, and I think I can hit 150*F for 24 hours with my kilns as well, possibly with electric heater assist if not a long warm summer day.

I have thin sheets of plywood painted black under the polycarbonate several inches, laid across the kiln load and appliances, to avoid lumber sunburn and appliance melting.

Kelly

[YellowHammer]

My solar kiln is the Va Tech design, roughly 10'x10'.  The fans have 3 speeds, and last for a couple years, unless they get hot, they they die within weeks.  So I don't let them get that hot, and do all my sterilization in one of my 2 Nyles.

I can hit 150 during the day, but can't maintain it in the solar kiln.  I don't use any supplemental heat in the solar kiln, its not insulated enough.