log moving woes

[D._Frederick]

Fla._,
Do you have floatation built into your pontoons, or what keeps you from sinking yourself with that 15000lbs of pull?

[Oregon_Rob]

I came by a 5hp post hole digger. It's output shaft turns 144 RPM'S at 160 ft*lbs.
I was thinking about coming up with a winch set up using this. I was thinking about using chain and gears to reduce it down 4:1 and use a 4" drum. This should give me about 3800 lb. Straight line pull. I know it's not that much, but I was thinking about making a catspin (sp?) type winch (where you constantly have a spool turning and you loop the rope around as many times as needed), and using some strong rope and blocks. That way I could get my total pull up pretty high and not have to winch slack in and out.

[Fla._Deadheader]

"D", flotation is the wrong word. Displacement is the word. Ever wonder why a battleship floats??? Displacement.
  I got a built-in system for not sinking. When the water starts running over the top of the transoms, I ease up, a "little". :
  Actually, the very front compartment is airtight, except for the vent, to relieve moisture from sweating, I hope !!
 There are 2-- four foot compartments and 2 10 foot ones. The 4' aft compartmennt is open and has the batteries and fueltanks and other miscellaneous stuff to stumble around on. Oh yeah, the bilge pumps, too, for overworkng the winch and rain water.

[beenthere]

Novajack has a capstan winch that is supposed to pull 2000 pounds using a small gas engine.

http://www.novajack.com/en/0101_05.htm

Just for kicks, I would like to find a capstan head that could be connected to a gear box, similar to what Oregon_Rob has in mind.

Seems to be a well-controlled way to winch logs or whatever and where ever. A bit shy of the 15,000 # pull that DH has on his winch.  ;D

[Kevin]

Just for kicks, I would like to find a capstan head that could be connected to a gear box, similar to what Oregon_Rob has in mind.  

Baileys has one.

[D._Frederick]

Fla._,
It sounds like you have enought compartments to stay afloat. The Titanic(sp) had enought displacement, but it sank! If it had enought flotation (air tight compartments) it would  not have sunk.  Anyway, you know what you are doing, the average guy would have drowned himself in your business.
Do those logs suck themselves that tight to the bottom that you sink yourself breaking them loose?

[Fla._Deadheader]

"D", The l0gs have been there for over 100 years. They have been rolled and covered and uncovered with sand and mud, all this time. Even the ones that you can see (feel) laying partially uncovered, sometimes take a good pull to get them loose. Usually, you start seeing bubbles (sometimes). If a 30" dia X 35' log is completely covered, I have to pull down to transom level and just sit and wait, OR, run the boat to and fro while pulling. We have about 5 that the tongs would not fit and Ed could not dig a spot under it for the cable to go through.
  We gotta get bigger tongs. I made a set out of 1¼" cold rolled. Pulled 'em straight 3 different times. They would hook a 38" log. ;D
  Oh, BTW, we Don'T work when the ice starts building up. We Don'T wanna sink, either !! ;) :D :D :D :D :D

[FeltzE]

For moving logs by hand I would recommend that you keep several pieces of 6" by 8' hardwood on hand and a couple of angled blocks.

First put a couple of the 6" planks out like rail road rails (but flat on their sides) next to the log. This will allow you to roll the log without a lot of rolling friction in the grass and dirt. When you need to redirect the log take one of the tapers and place it at the balance point of the log roll the log from the end that will swing the farthest and roll the log up the incline. As the inclined block takes the weight and the log begins to teeter you can pivot it nicely to the new direction to roll. Ease it back off the incline remove it, place a couple of runners to roll the log on and proceed in the new direction.

The key is to balance and pivot the log to turn it, and also to use the planks to reduce your rolling friction.

I hope that that makes some kind of sence to ya, if it dosn't you will just have to wait for the instructional video... ;D

[Fla._Deadheader]

Yup FeltzE. If ya use the weight of the log to your advantage, it is NOT difficult to move a very large log, by hand. I have used a piece of 2 X 4 under a log, to get it near the balance, while on the ground, and then swing it, as you stated.
  Are you not the feller that had the Belsaw edger for sale, that you told me about?? I responded to your post and never heard back from ya ???

[SteveS]

 The metal for my ramps is 2 x 6", 3/16" thick. They are working out real nice.

The trailer is a 5 ton Big Tex with electric brakes. It is only 16' long. The main runners of the trailer are 10" I beam. It is sure enough heavy duty. I had planned on building a trailer, but found a pretty good deal on this one.  The tounge weight was a little more than I thought it would be so I went and got me some air bags for my 1/2 pickup. Everything worked out pretty good. I know I need a bigger truck, but for right now It will have to make due.

[D._Frederick]

Fla._,
I think that cold rolled shaft has too low of a tensile strength for making tongs. A better steel would be spring stock, but it may require tempering after forging. I have two different sizes of tongs that my father forged out of Ford rear axles that dated before WWII. They will stand the pull of my TD 6, but do some times pull out. I hope that your son stays clear of the tongs when you start to pull. They save a lot of labor, but are dangerous if they pull free. How much whip back do they have in water?

[Fla._Deadheader]

"D", yer absolutely correct about the cold rolled. I have no way to temper them, and, when I pull, I never know when to stop with the big tongs. My forge set-up is small. The smaller ones, store bought, will either hook or pull through the soft sapwood. The tongs probably don't move more than the distance of the depth of the boat was when pulling. I'm sure the water takes all the energy out of the whiplash.
    I passed the cable and shackle through the eye on the tongs. That way, if ya hook, just do it. If ya ned the shackle, that feeds through the eye without the weight of the tongs.

[Carl_B]

does anyone use one of these to move logs?

[Mark M]

Hey Carl - show us some more pictures of dat thing! I've been wanting to build one and yours looks like a good design.

Mark

[EZ]

Hey that log arch is one of a kind, that's pretty cool.
EZ

[Plowboy]

I'm Carl B's son and I helped build the log arch.  We first used it this winter and moved about 50 logs from a field edge.  It worked great, my Honda Recon 250 pulled all the logs out.  I thought this was pretty impressive considering the four wheeler is only a 2wd, and there was about 4-6 inches of snow to contend with. I have recently updated my four wheeler to a 350 4wd to pull the arch around.  

The arch is pretty simple and easy to use, just back into the log and fish a chain around and hook to the chain hoist.  The only thing we might do different is to put a set of torsion bar axles under it so you could pull it behind the pick up a little easier.  Might consider something a little different than a chain hoist to lift the logs, like a boat winch.  It's something to think about.    Plowboy.

[LeeB]

FDH,  
        I don't know a whole lot about tempering, but was wondering if you could get high enough temps in the kitchen oven? A freind of mine tempers knife blades that way. LeeB

[Fla._Deadheader]

Hi Lee. I really have no idea how hot the stel needs to be. That is one area that I have no experience in. The big problem is, the 2 tong pieces are over 40" long, each. Takes a good size heat source to get it the same temp all the way from tip to tip ???

[FeltzE]

FDH,

Yup it's me with the edger pack, I don't remember any replies or calls about it so I sent it up to my brother near Buffalo NY. He is rebuilding a 42" circular saw now. (HE hasn't a clue what he's doing) so it should be an interesting year.

Eric

[Don P]

This is roughly from my Dad's book "Metalwork- Technology and Practice" 1947...its a IA textbook of his from ECTC, price $4.40.

First, steel to be tempered is hardened by heating it to its particular "critical temperature" then quickly quenched. This leaves the steel fine grained but brittle. Then the steel is reheated and the temper is drawn to the point you need and again quickly quenched. Steel is annealed, or softened, by taking it to its critical temperature and letting it cool slowly.

The critical temperature can be found by using a magnet. Steel is magnetic until critical temperature is reached, then it becomes non-magnetic. At this point quickly cool the steel, it will be file hard. By softening it just a little it will be hard but tough.

To temper the hardened steel polish to bright and place it on a red hot piece of  metal, as it heats it will change color according to the degree of temper. The temperatures for tempering are from 400-600 degrees F. When the right color appears quickly quench it in cool water.
FDH, have you got any friends at the local pizza joint, their ovens are about 4' long  :D.

	For Tempering
Degrees F		Color		kind of tool
430F		yellow		scrapers, hammers, lathe tools
470F		straw		punches, dies, hack saw blades, drills, taps, knives, reamers
500F		brown		axes, wood chisels, drifts
540F		purple		cold chisels, center punches, rivet sets
570F		blue		screw drivers, springs, gears, picks

[Fla._Deadheader]

I may not be correct here, but, I think what I need is Tensile strength. The tips of the tongs might need to be tempered but, how would I draw the right color, all the way down the entire length of each tong???  Back in Metal Shop class, we made cold chisels and such. That is what Don P just posted.
   This is one subject I wish I knew more about.  A Blacksmith would know, but, They ain't too common in these parts : ;D ;D
  Thanks for the info Don. I have had other projects that needed Tensile Strength added, but, as above, ??? ???

[Frank_Pender]

Oregon-rob, Ithink I might have what it isyou are looking for.  I have a 90* gear box that has a ratio of 4 to 1.  You can run this off a hydraulic type unit or off of a pto system from a tractor.  There is a chain sprocked on one shaft at this time that is 4" in diam.    Come on South this next weekend if you like and we will see if it will work for you and your project.  

[Don P]

Yup, thats where I switch to oak over pine to get the tensile up :D.
I think thats where you're getting into the mix of the steel, even tempering a piece of low carbon to the right color wouldn't give you much. I think springs have vanadium ??? to add tensile strength?

[Oregon_Rob]

Frank,
I have to double check with the boss, but I should be able to be there early Sat AM. I have to be back in Banks by 1:30.

[lamar]

About heat treating those tongs.Seeing there cold rolled steel there isnt much carbon in it,so you cant hurt it much.If it was 4140 heatreat you would have to be carefull on to hard so it will brake not bend.In this case try using a ecetelyen torch.Heat to cherry red and quench in oil.You can use drain oil (do this outside)then test with grinding stone for sparks.softer reder harder finer,sounds differnt to. If this dosent work try a water quench.With cold roll it probebly wont do much good to draw back the temper Larry