Wood-Mizer LT 40 Issue

[Patrick_Henry]

Hello folks, new to the forum! I have an elderly friend that I'm trying to help out with the above mentioned sawmill that he purchased new in 2000 and only has 150 hours on it. I am a HVAC/R mechanic by trade and was a diesel mechanic for many years before I got into the HVAC business. But I don't know anything about this sawmill so I'm hoping someone here can point me in the right direction. It's getting a "Caution Overload" fault when cutting head is traveling in the up position. I looked through all of the literature that came with the mill and did everything that was suggested other than checking the solenoid. But this machine doesn't have the solenoid for the lift.

He had a family member come and look at it and they installed a new battery, checked and cleaned all the electrical connections. They also cleaned and lubricated the rails that the head unit travels up and down on. I told him that I wanted to check amp draw on the little motor that moves the head up and down. So I checked amp draw and voltage drop on that motor. Amp draw traveling up is a little over 2 amps and traveling down is around 1.5 amps. I don't see a data sticker on that motor that gives rated load amps but 2 amps doesn't seem excessive to me and the voltage drop is negligible as well. He actually called wood-mizer customer service after replacing the battery and cleaning all the connections. He said they told him that it sounds like the problem may be with the setworks controller itself causing this issue.

I would just like to make sure that there's nothing else that could be causing this issue since that's a very expensive part. If he has to go in the direction of taking the controller off the machine. I was just wondering if it does turn out to be the controller if it could be refurbished? I know that the PCM on my Dodge service truck went out several years ago and I wound up sending it to a guy that rebuilt it and it's been fine ever since. So hopefully, someone here would know somebody that might could do that if it could be done. Looking forward to hear what some of you here think about it. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

[terrifictimbersllc]

what kind of setworks are on it, is it called simple set, accuset, exact name and perhaps version on it somewhere might help.  Or photo of it and the error.

[Magicman]

I'll bet that it is either Setworks or Accuset (1), neither of which are still supported. 

I can understand and relate to "caution overload" traveling downward toward a set point but going up is a mystery because the (whichever) setworks should not even be doing anything going up. 

[Edvantage]

I have the same mill same vintage same hours. We had same issue but I'll have to ask my boys what the cure was. I think the vertical rails where slightly rusty we loosened the plastic blocks that ride on the rails and lube it with trany fluid. I know setworks of that vintage is not supported if you have issues let me know. I completely rebuilt mine due to mice. You might want to pull the front cover off and look inside and take box off top and look for corrosion. Condensation gets in the top box and causes corrosion. Bad connection will cause higher amp draw and overload.

[Patrick_Henry]

 

 

 

 

 

Stopped by today and took a few pictures of the controller and the mill itself. It is the setworks controller on this mill. I looked at the wiring schematic that came with the machine literature when it was purchased. I don't see a schematic for the setworks controller itself. There's something dropping the power to the up/down motor when that error happens. I had my meter on it when traveling up and it's reading a little over 14 volts and when that error pops up the voltage drops out to zero.

[Edvantage]

I asked my boys and now I remember. We took the up down motor apart, it had corroded. We cleaned it up been working fine since.  We did so much to it I'm having a hard time remembering when it's not in front of me. Setting up the mill today it's been sitting since Sept. Was able to get it indoors for winter. Started up first try yesterday. 

[Patrick_Henry]

I asked my boys and now I remember. We took the up down motor apart, it had corroded. We cleaned it up been working fine since.  We did so much to it I'm having a hard time remembering when it's not in front of me. Setting up the mill today it's been sitting since Sept. Was able to get it indoors for winter. Started up first try yesterday.

Thanks to everyone for the advice so far. As I said in my original post, I've checked amp draw and voltage drop on that motor. I don't see any excessive amp draw or voltage drop at all. Were you getting the same overload error?

[Magicman]

Yup, that was my first choice on the Setworks which is no longer supported.  That is the exact unit my my sawmill.  You may have a corroded connection somewhere but whatever it is you will have to find what is causing the voltage to drop.  It will be down to basic hands-on trouble shooting and no one can actually help you.  I would not think that you have a problem with the actual Setworks.

[Edvantage]

I had same error and it was the motor. I had a brand new up down drum switch. You might want to look at switch contacts clean and lube with dielectric grease. 

[Patrick_Henry]

I had same error and it was the motor. I had a brand new up down drum switch. You might want to look at switch contacts clean and lube with dielectric grease.

Thank you again my friend! We'll give that a try and see what happens. I'll make sure to take some pics and post them if that's what it turns out to be.

[Edvantage]

Be safe working on up down system loosen or unbolt wrong thing head could drop.

[Patrick_Henry]

Hi guys, I wanted to take a moment to update this thread. We did as suggested and pulled the motor off. We then disassembled it. It was clean as a pin but we cleaned it up anyway and put it back on the mill. We were still getting the same overload error. So I decided to take the controller off and look at the connections there. Everything looked like brand new money. So then I decided to take my meter and do some tracing. I found the red wire that comes from the drum switch for the up movement of  the saw head. I had my friend work it until we got the overload error and I took my meter to check voltage on that terminal of the board. I was still getting voltage from the drum switch but the juice that that feeds the motor (#10 red wire) coming from the board and goes to the motor via a splice with the orange wire inside the box.

So I figured that there's something either going on with that board or one of the modules inside the box. I decided to try taking the load off of the board with a relay to see it that would work. I took a 12 volt 30 amp relay and wired it up where it would energize from the red drum wire switch when pushed up. It worked perfectly for 2 days and then started getting a "TL module bad" error. When that happens you can't move the saw head up or down. You should be able to see the relay I installed in one of the pics I posted. Although I didn't see any evidence of overheating anywhere I could smell something getting hot inside that box. So then I called WM tech support myself and told the guy I was talking to what I had done  and he basically told me that the problem is indeed in the setworks controller. And also told me basically the same thing you guys did about the obsolescence of that controller. They want to upgrade him to the Accuset 2 controller. The problem is they want like $1800 for the controller and another thousand for the sensor kit. My friend is on a fixed income and cant afford that kind of money. He says he's going to try and just use the measuring scale on the machine and do it manually but it would be much slower doing it that way he says. I'm hoping someone will scroll up on this post with a better, more reasonable solution for it. Does anyone know if there are any aftermarket controllers that can be used instead of the one from WM?




 

 

[Remle]

I may have a lead for you.
I'm going to check with the boss to see if it is okay to send you a pm with the info.U

Update:

Patrick
Jeff had this to say
" If a someone uses the Forestry Forum to facilitate a sale or fulfill a wanted item, there is a 5% due to the forum by someone."
If you agree to be that " someone " i'll forward the information, please let me know. I have no interest in this item as it wont work with my mill..

[JBlain]

I just bought a new to me 2009 LT40 hydraulic and the same up down issue came up in a few hours of milling.  After testing and pulling things apart, it was the 1/2 hp motor and the magnets came loose due to water intrusion and rusted holding clips.  Magnets were brittle so I had to order a new motor.  

[JBlain]

Like your friends, the mill I bought only has 135 hours on it.

[Patrick_Henry]

I may have a lead for you.
I'm going to check with the boss to see if it is okay to send you a pm with the info.

Thank you so much!

[Remle]

Patrick
See " Update " in my previous post.

[Patrick_Henry]

I just bought a new to me 2009 LT40 hydraulic and the same up down issue came up in a few hours of milling.  After testing and pulling things apart, it was the 1/2 hp motor and the magnets came loose due to water intrusion and rusted holding clips.  Magnets were brittle so I had to order a new motor.  

I forgot to take a picture of the motor when we took it apart but it was clean as a pin. A little bit of sawdust inside, a little rust on the brushes but that was about it. This is the first time I've ever worked on one of these mills. But this looks like planned obsolescence to me. If I was on the market for a sawmill I don't know that I'd consider a wood mizer.

[Patrick_Henry]

Patrick
See " Update " in my previous post.

That won't be a problem I don't think. You just let me know how you want to handle it. If the price is agreeable we'll add the 5% on and you can pay it to the forum.

[Magicman]

But this looks like planned obsolescence to me.

To me this is a strange statement especially since this is my 20th year to be sawing with a Wood-Mizer that is older than yours.  Yes, changes come about and improvements are made thus some items such as "Setworks" has become obsolete and non-supported.  Same as a computer circa 1990's and early 2000's.  I wonder who is still running Microsoft XP?  I doubt that it is still supported.

I am still chugging along with Setworks and when it conks it will cost be a few $$$ to upgrade to Accuset 2, but in the mean time it has churned out over 2 million bf. for me and over a million for the sawmill's previous owner. ;D

[Patrick_Henry]

But this looks like planned obsolescence to me.

I wonder who is still running Microsoft XP?  I doubt that it is still supported.

It may not be supported any longer but it still works. This machine has less than 200 hours on it and it don't. We're not talking about hard hours either. It's always been kept under cover in a metal building when not in use. It's not mine, it belongs to an elderly friend of mine that I'm just trying to help out. As I said, I really don't know much about any sawmill much less the wood mizer. But I see stuff like this all the time in the trade that I am in. Build a piece of equipment, make everything on it proprietary and then quit making the parts for it so when something fails you have to buy a brand new one. That's just bad business IMHO.

[LeeB]

There are a lot of very satisfied WM owners out there and a heck of a lot of older machines still in service. I would imagine the burnt/hot smell you noticed was the mosfets in the setworks frying, hence the TL module error. The setworks will not work without them and they are not available from Wm any longer nor from their supplier for them in the past either as far as I have ever been able to ascertain. To use the mill manually the setworks will have to be disconnected. Not hard to do. I can send you the procedure if you want it. 

As far as obsolete parts go, try finding OEM parts for an older vehicle. Even on my 06 and 98 trucks many OEM parts are no longer available. Both are still very good vehicles. Sometimes I can find aftermarket parts and other times nothing available unless I can find used. I've run into parts that aren't to be had even used and have had to do a workaround. Would I buy another truck from the same manufacturer? You bet. Would I buy another WM mill? You bet. 

[Edvantage]

I was thinking along the same lines bypass the setworks. The more I mill the more I end up using the scale anyway. Sometimes it's faster.

[Magicman]

Build a piece of equipment, make everything on it proprietary and then quit making the parts for it so when something fails you have to buy a brand new one. That's just bad business IMHO.

And in my opinion Sir, that is a broad catchall statement that simply is not true.  I understand and appreciate your desire to help your elderly friend but frustration and playing the "blame game" and bashing a manufacturer serves no purpose.  

Manufacturers use components that are available at the time and continually make upgrades when components are revised and upgraded.  You can not blame a manufacturer for using the latest technology that is available at the time.  That being said, Accuset 2 is the current setworks being used and has now been available for over 15 years.  It just so happens that your friend's (and my own) Setworks are relics from a time period ~20+ years ago.  When they die there is no option but to spend the $$ and upgrade.  My sawmill has well over 15K hours on it and over 3 million board feet of lumber sawn under it's belt.

I would "never ever never" saw without the speed and accuracy of setworks.  

[Remle]

I have checked out the lead further. The poster was rather vague in his description. It's a controller for a 2000 WMmill , unfortunately, it is for a Remote Control system revision E.02. No doubt it wont be of any help to Patrick. Patrick if you wish to investigate it further please let me know. These systems are quit uniquely designed for each mill. They take into account, the motor ,gas or diesel, gear box gearing and a host of other things.  I'm sure, some where out their, their is a controller that will work, the quest is to find it!
I under stand his frustration, but as technology moves forward the pieces necessary to support items such as this are no longer available.  I feel guilty, this topic had turned into a war of words. My apologies to Jeff and the rest of you all.

[Patrick_Henry]

I have checked out the lead further. The poster was rather vague in his description. It's a controller for a 2000 WMmill , unfortunately, it is for a Remote Control system revision E.02. No doubt it wont be of any help to Patrick. Patrick if you wish to investigate it further please let me know. These systems are quit uniquely designed for each mill. They take into account, the motor ,gas or diesel, gear box gearing and a host of other things.  I'm sure, some where out their, their is a controller that will work, the quest is to find it!
I under stand his frustration, but as technology moves forward the pieces necessary to support items such as this are no longer available.  I feel guilty, this topic had turned into a war of words. My apologies to Jeff and the rest of you all.

Thank you again for trying anyway. It seems I've ruffled a few feathers here which was not my intention. I was merely making an observation. It would be a different story had he been using this mill the whole time he's owned it and making money with it. But I believe he originally bought it as a hobby and never really used it. Now that he's disabled on a fixed income he wanted to try and make a little money with it. I'll probably just help him out with the cost of the new controller and just let him pay me back when he starts making a little money with it. My apologies if I've offended anyone.

[Magicman]

Oh no, no ruffled feathers here and no apology needed nor expected.  Look back at my Replies and note that my only intention has been to be helpful with a situation that I am very familiar with.  If my response seemed defensive then I offer my apology.  My response was that I disagree with blaming a manufacturer for a 20 year old component failure. 

Now for what I actually think; I doubt that the controller is bad but that there is something that is being overlooked.  I am also not blaming the tech support guy at Wood-Mizer because there are very few technicians there that are 100% up to speed with the 20 year old Setworks.  Don't hesitate to ask tech support "who is the most "Setworks" experienced guy there?"  That is simply my opinion and it is worth exactly what you paid for it.

Caution Overload" is an indication that something is putting too much resistance/dragging on the up/down motor and causing it to draw too much current.  Mast lube, chain, gearbox, sprockets?  That or the brushes are not seated or the motor commutator has tarnished over and not allowing the brushes to make proper contact.  How many amps is the motor drawing while moving up and down?  I would take one step at the time and eliminate each item.

[Patrick_Henry]

Oh no, no ruffled feathers here and no apology needed nor expected.  Look back at my Replies and note that my only intention has been to be helpful with a situation that I am very familiar with.  If my response seemed defensive then I offer my apology.  My response was that I disagree with blaming a manufacturer for a 20 year old component failure.  

Now for what I actually think; I doubt that the controller is bad but that there is something that is being overlooked.  I am also not blaming the tech support guy at Wood-Mizer because there are very few technicians there that are 100% up to speed with the 20 year old Setworks.  Don't hesitate to ask tech support "who is the most "Setworks" experienced guy there?"  That is simply my opinion and it is worth exactly what you paid for it.

Caution Overload" is an indication that something is putting too much resistance/dragging on the up/down motor and causing it to draw too much current.  Mast lube, chain, gearbox, sprockets?  That or the brushes are not seated or the motor commutator has tarnished over and not allowing the brushes to make proper contact.  How many amps is the motor drawing while moving up and down?  I would take one step at the time and eliminate each item.

Well I certainly appreciate all of the input. It was probably unfair of me to compare my industry with the sawmill industry. It's just very frustrating to me when you see HVAC/R manufacturers design this equipment, make virtually everything proprietary on it and then when it breaks and isn't under warranty anymore if parts are still available for it they make it so cost prohibitive that it's almost not worth fixing. Appliances are even worse than that. Some of it there are plenty of aftermarket parts available but for certain manufacturers there are no aftermarket parts available. They don't tell you that when they're trying to sell it to you either. I tell people when they ask what unit to buy that the list of the ones not to buy is much shorter. But they aren't building any of it the way they did even 10 years ago. The metal is getting thinner and everything is made cheaper nowadays but they're charging more for it.


Now, as for your other observations. We did clean the rails up and lube them good. I don't see any issue with the chain binding or anything. It's been lubed up as well. I think I mentioned in a previous post that I had checked amp draw but I don't see a data tag anywhere on the motor that says what the RLA is for it. But it's drawing between 1.5 and 2 amps coming down and between 2.5 and 3 amps going up. That doesn't seem excessive to me but without knowing the RLA for that motor I can't say. I know the last time I worked on it I was looking at the manual that came with it. It looks like you can bypass the setworks controller. I didn't study it very long but we had considered doing that temporarily just to see if it would run that way without issue. Do you think that would be unwise? It just doesn't make any sense to me. Look at the pictures I posted of the controller. It all looks brand new in there. No rust or corrosion whatsoever. Now when it does go up there is some dragging on the rails but I don't know if that's normal or not. At 3 amps it just doesn't seem like the motor is struggling that hard.

[LeeB]

More likely than not the TL model error you saw tis telling you the mosfet boards in the setworks are now fried. There a procedure for testing them. I had pretty much the same issue with mine, a 98 model same as MM has. I had thought about trying to replace the mosfets but just wasn't sure my skills were up to it. The mosfets themselves are cheap, or at least that's what it seemed to me. But then again, I wasn't sure I was looking at the right ones. From what I do understand about them they are very sensitive to voltage spikes and fry pretty easy. Although your friends mill has almost no hours on it all the connections are still 20 years old and time wears on an unused machine sometimes as bad or worse than one that is used heavily and continuously. Not sure how the relay you added might have affected them either.  Here is the procedure for testing the mosfets;

Mosfet test:
Remove all wires from the Mosfet
1. Set meter to OHMS.
    a. Red lead to "S" or "GRD" terminal. Black lead to "G" or unmarked small terminal. Meter should read no less than approx. 1k ohms. 
    b. Red lead to "G" or unmarked small terminal. Black lead to "D" or "Motor" terminal. Meter should read around 335k ohms.

2. Set meter to Diode. 
    a. Red lead to "D" or :Motor" terminal. Black lead to "S" or "GRD" terminal. Meter should read open (OL). 

When I checked mine, only one out of four was good. I managed to get some more from someone but they were all bad too. I did later on get a good setworks from another member but have not yet installed it.

[Patrick_Henry]

More likely than not the TL model error you saw tis telling you the mosfet boards in the setworks are now fried. There a procedure for testing them. I had pretty much the same issue with mine, a 98 model same as MM has. I had thought about trying to replace the mosfets but just wasn't sure my skills were up to it. The mosfets themselves are cheap, or at least that's what it seemed to me. But then again, I wasn't sure I was looking at the right ones. From what I do understand about them they are very sensitive to voltage spikes and fry pretty easy. Although your friends mill has almost no hours on it all the connections are still 20 years old and time wears on an unused machine sometimes as bad or worse than one that is used heavily and continuously. Not sure how the relay you added might have affected them either.  Here is the procedure for testing the mosfets;

Mosfet test:
Remove all wires from the Mosfet
1. Set meter to OHMS.
   a. Red lead to "S" or "GRD" terminal. Black lead to "G" or unmarked small terminal. Meter should read no less than approx. 1k ohms.
   b. Red lead to "G" or unmarked small terminal. Black lead to "D" or "Motor" terminal. Meter should read around 335k ohms.

2. Set meter to Diode.
   a. Red lead to "D" or :Motor" terminal. Black lead to "S" or "GRD" terminal. Meter should read open (OL).

When I checked mine, only one out of four was good. I managed to get some more from someone but they were all bad too. I did later on get a good setworks from another member but have not yet installed it.

Thanks Lee, I don't think I'll go through all of that trouble if they're not available anyway. You would think if it was a connection issue it would be showing up on the amp draw for the motor. I wish I knew what the RLA for that motor is.

[btulloh]

It's unusual (but not unheard of) that a particular mosfet would no longer be available. They should be available from electronic parts distribution even if not available from WM. If you can get some numbers off them I'd like to check some sources. 

[Patrick_Henry]

It's unusual (but not unheard of) that a particular mosfet would no longer be available. They should be available from electronic parts distribution even if not available from WM. If you can get some numbers off them I'd like to check some sources.

Thank you sir! I will do as soon as I can get back over there.

[ladylake]

 What does a mosfet do ?   Steve

[btulloh]

Type of transistor used for high current applications among other things. Generally what you'll find in motor drive and amplifier output stages. In very wide use. 

[RichTired]

Good video on Mosfets

Mosfet video

[Ianab]

Type of transistor used for high current applications among other things. Generally what you'll find in motor drive and amplifier output stages. In very wide use.

Realistically you will find them in pretty much every modern electronic widget. These are mosfets on a older computer motherboard that's was lurking under the desk. In this case they are used as switching regulators to drop the 12 volt supply (from the white plug on the left) to the 1.8 (?) volts that the CPU uses. Because they can switch on and off very quickly they can be used with the coils and capacitors around them to regulate voltage very efficiently.


 
So in the case of a sawmill, they can be used to let a micro-controller (that outputs 5 volts ~20 mA) control a motor that needs 10 / 20 / 50 Amps, with one simple (and usually reliable) device. Back in the dark times this would have been done with mechanical relays, but anyone that remembers those days also remembers why those went out of fashion.  :D
But electronics doesn't like sitting unused for years. Gremlins tend to move in. Standby batteries corrode and leak / capacitors simply die of old age / connectors pick up corrosion etc . Then you have issues with parts, and knowledge of how those older things worked.
Chances are that parts are available, especially for things like mosfets that are common, and would have been "off the shelf" 20 years ago. That particular type may now be on a slightly dusty shelf at the back of the warehouse, but 99% sure you could obtain them (or a newer compatible one). But electronic repair like that is a whole other skill set....

[btulloh]

Good expansion on my rather brief explanation. There are so many in use it's hard to really cover the whole subject. For the record, and for something you don't really need or want know, mosfet is the acronym for Metal Oxide Semiconductor Field Effect Transister - (ughhh). But In France I think they're called a "Royale with cheese".  :D  (Oh wait . . . wrong movie.)