Chainsaw chain grinder help

[slice107]

Hello, I have bought an efco fl136 from a friend. We also had a cheap Oregon clone and it had enough slop in the head pin that I thought that was my cause for the chains not cutting. i mostly use semi chisel chain. the last time i used the grinder i followed Oregon's settings in the 420-110 manual. 35-55-10 worked good cut like a new chain. today when i tried to do the same the shape of the cutter is different enough that I know it wont cut well. (i can hand file great so i do know what I'm looking at . ) The only thing i have changed is dressing the wheel. I'm having a heck of a time getting it shaped like the little plastic card shows it should be. but can that really change the shape of the tooth that much? I mean its not off allot but its not perfect. 

Also another problem I'm finding is its hard to only grind a little off the tooth. I end up grinding a fair bit and my chains seem to be disappearing much faster then when I hand file. 

And last of all, I hear about needing to make sure both left and right teeth are same length. Mine are close about 0.005 difference according to my dial calipers. Whats this all about and could it have anything to do with me getting funny looking teeth all the time?

[RetiredTech]

  I don't use that sharpener but I would think the grind wheel would need to be round on the edge just like the files you use. Without a picture of the funny looking teeth we can only guess. There should be an adjustment on the chain advance/lock to set how much gets ground off. If all teeth are the same length and you set it to just touch the tooth it should lightly grind each tooth. If some teeth are longer they will get ground more. There is also an adjustment for how deep it cuts and the angle. Look at a new chain and try to keep the same  depth, shape and angle.
 I generally only use a chain grinder when my hand filing produces a crooked cut that I can't fix by hand. The grinder is going to remove more material than a light filing. I prefer not to use the grinder If I don't have to. By the time I drag out the grinder and remove the chain from the saw I could have flied the chain and gone back to work. Things that will likely require the grinder to fix are metal or rock strikes. I've never been able to file my way out of those. Hope I touched on something that might help.
  Lastly, I'd try to go online and download a manual for that sharpener if you don't have one.

[slice107]

I'll try to figure out how to add pictures. also i know about the different adjustments. It just seems weird to me how the other day they came out great and now today they are coming out odd...

Also yes ill have a look and see if i can find a manual for this grinder. i feel the same about hand filing as that's all ive done all my life till now. I don't need a grinder. i just got it for a good price and heard that this one is one of the better ones made. I usaily sharpen quickly when I get fuel/oil. Only takes a second and its a good break from chainsawing never really seen the advantage of having to remove a chain and sharpen it to just put it back on the saw. 

[rusticretreater]

Its like having a lot of bandsaw blades. If you have a bunch of chains, you just swap them out while out logging and then sharpen them up at the shop.  Its a real time saver in the field if you use long bars on your saws. 

I usually have three chains with me and will only field sharpen each one of them once before a swap out.

As for getting the teeth and the rakers the same on both sides, its needed to keep the forces balanced so the saw cuts straight kerfs.  If you don't, the saw cuts crooked no matter how much force you use to try and make it cut straight.

[barbender]

 I have a hunch that the majority of people using a grinder, are grinding too hard and trying to take too much off at once. That's been my experience with chains others have done, anyhow. I'm not saying that's the case here. 

 Are you sure you have the right wheel thickness for the chain pitch you are running?

[rusticretreater]

I set mine up by using an angle gauge to confirm the setting shown on the angle dial. This is quite important to stay true to the factory specs and optimum cutting angles.  I measure the accuracy of all my miter gauges, sawmill rulers, etc.  I find they are all pretty much off unless they cost $200 or more.  My chain sharpener is off by 1 degree at 25, nearly 2 at the 35 degree setting.

Then I adjust it to barely touch the surface, push it down to the gullet and then gently push it to the side(freeplay) as I raise it, grinding the surface and making a sharper edged hook on the tooth.

Examine the tooth where there is a 90 degree bend.  Usually this corner is not ground fully if your angle is off. The corner is the transition from the tooth biting to the gullet slicing and needs to be sharp too. Keep going until all surfaces show clean bright metal.

[slice107]

I'll mess with it today and try to get a video and some pictures. Would running different types of chain also change things? I have some stihl rm. Some oregon dpx. Some oregon exl. Some husky xcut. I know semi vs full chisel will change but will different brands of chain need different angles as well?

I could be grinding to much each time. i only turn the forward/back tooth adjustment maybe 1/8 of a turn.

I also had another look at some different oregon manuals and for dpx some say 35-55-10. Some say 30-55-10. Its kinda confusing. also I cant find a manual for this efco fl136. I keep getting manuals for the efco 136 chainsaw coming up instead lol.

[mike dee]

Do you have one of these diamond grinding wheel dressers?


https://www.princessauto.com/en/diamond-grinding-wheel-dresser/product/PA0009027830

[slice107]

I do have one of those ones. I also have the small rock type one that came with the grinder and also a big rock type one from norton. I was looking at buying the little guide/jig thingy from tecomec. it clamps into the vise and gives right profile. I don't think my profile is correct. i dont know how picky it is but when i use the gauge thingy i do get light from behind.

[barbender]

 I think Stihl chain uses a 0° top plate angle. I sharpen mostly harvester chainsn off the top of my head the settings are 30°-60°-10°. I tend to use that for my regular saw chains as well (all Oregon). Any chain should cut at least decent with those settings. 

 If you really try to hog a lot off, it actually rolls a burr on top of the tooth that will be as dull as if you hit rocks. 

 I can't stress a light grind enough. It should be light enough, that you almost need two times around IMO. 

 The stone shape determines the shape of your gullet. If it is really out of whack I guess it could influence the hook angle. I eyeballed mine with the little gauge that came with the sharpener, and it was fine. 

 Another thing that makes me suspect that a vast majority of operators of both saw chain and band sharpeners using vitrified wheels are grinding way too hard, is people always complain that the stones wear too quickly and don't maintain their shape. I haven't had that issue on either type of sharpener. I've read guys say that the stone won't hold its shape long enough to make it around one chain. I'd sharpened 25-30 harvester chains and thought it was probably time to reshape the stone. It hadn't changed🤷 Same on my band saw grinder, I think if you have  a consistent, light grind the stone wears in the same shape that you are sharpening. 

[slice107]

I just went out and ground 1 tooth. 30-55-10. Stihl rm chain.  Here is video.

This one came out better then they were yesterday... Not sure why it's changing soo much for me...

Here is picture of the wheel profile.

[barbender]

Although you are doing a great job kissing the tooth, you are taking too big of a bite imo. When you have it backed off enough where you feel like you're not doing anything, that's just about right.

[slice107]

Interesting. I'll give that a go. I'll go sharpen up that chain and if anything goes fishy I'll be back.

i usaily set the the tooth so it just touches the wheel with the grinder off and advance the tooth about 1/8 of a turn on the knob. I'll try just setting it so it just touches the tooth on the next chain.

thankyou for the help.

[beenthere]

I usually set the the tooth so it just touches the wheel with the grinder off and advance the tooth about 1/8 of a turn on the knob

Try that without advancing any turn of the knob, and see if it goes around the chain matching the other teeth. Then if so, advance only 1/16 of a turn to monitor the results.

1/8 turn seems too much, and looks to be taking more tooth than it should if "kissing" is the intent. What I saw in the video was an aggressive bite, more like "hogging". 

[slice107]

So here is another chain. I don't know brand. It has a 50a stamped on the drive link. There is no gullet. This is what I was getting for tooth shape and it doesn't look like a good profile from my experience. It's the same settings as before. 30-55-10. I'm using a 3/16 wheel. And it is 3/8 chain. 

[rusticretreater]

It appears that the Tecomec FL 136 and Efco FL 136 are the same product.  Here is the manual link for the 
Tecomec.

https://www.manualslib.com/products/Tecomec-Fl-136-8747120.html

Looking at your last picture, the chain has been cut too deep and at the wrong angle.  In between the tooth and raker is two peaks.  The left peak should be the base of the gullet.  All of the gullet metal has been ground away.

[slice107]

Thankyou for finding the manual. 

So your saying i need to not cut as deep with the grinder wheel?

[slice107]

Here is another tooth with the wheel not set so deep.

[rusticretreater]

Compare that with a new chain and see the difference.

[slice107]

Don't have any new semi chisel handy. but i know when i hand file and even when i did grind good chain. this last pic needs more hook/gullet. I just don't know why that stihl came out fine and now this one doesn't. The only thing that changed is the chain.
The grinder is still at the same settings.

The tecomec manual says i should be doing this 50a chain with at 30-60-0. I'm still set at 30-55-10. ill give those numbers a try i guess and see if its any better? it also says the stihl rm shouldnt have the 10* angle but mine looks good how its set?

[slice107]

Another tooth same 50a chain. It looks to have a small gullet now. It looks better maybe? This is at 30-60-0.

[barbender]

 You have zero hook in your side plate, which is a problem.

  When you adjust for the 10° top plate angle, you have to switch it from side to side. There should be a 10°-0°-10° marking on your vise. If it's not making sense I would just set and leave it at zero, and get your chains cutting correctly before you try dialing the top plate angle in.

 I'd use a 60° cutting angle, too. I know you said yours is 55° but it looks really flat.

[barbender]

Looking at your side plates, I'd almost bet money that is from grinding with the 10° setting for the other side.

[slice107]

Looking at your side plates, I'd almost bet money that is from grinding with the 10° setting for the other side.

I show in the video a couple posts back how I have the angles set. The last picture is set at 30-60-0 as the tecomec manual states for this chain. 

I will admit that I have ground a few teeth with the 10* on the wrong side. Doh...

[slice107]

You have zero hook in your side plate, which is a problem.

  When you adjust for the 10° top plate angle, you have to switch it from side to side. There should be a 10°-0°-10° marking on your vise. If it's not making sense I would just set and leave it at zero, and get your chains cutting correctly before you try dialing the top plate angle in.

 I'd use a 60° cutting angle, too. I know you said yours is 55° but it looks really flat.

I know I have 0 hook. And I don't understand what angles I need to change to get the hook. And wouldn't 55* give me more hook then a 60* would? I know with a hand file it's just filing deeper into the tooth to get that hook. With hand file I have a problem with too much hook. Lol.