Hey everyone, not new to forum but very green when it comes to things other than chainsaws. I read a lot of the posts kn here about the different skidder you all have and repair your doing. Well now the time might be here for me to aquire one.
I have an opportunity to purchase a 1972 tree farmer with engine stuck and has been sitting for years. I'm still trying to get the model number from the seller but she says it's a 353 Detroit in it that's all I know. I feel for the price that I can't go wrong. I would like to fix it up and start doing some small side work as my "real job" permits. I realize it's gonna be slot of work but I'm willing to put forth the effort.
What do you tree farmer expects think? I'll try and post some pictures of it by the end of the day.
Thanks guys!
shes worth about scrap price
Here are the pictures I have so far
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/TF~0.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/TF2.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/TF3.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/TF4.jpg)
Quote from: treeslayer2003 on August 13, 2015, 01:59:14 PM
shes worth about scrap price
Tree slayer, not a fan of the tree farmer? Just curious as to why you feel its worth scrap. Like I said im new to purchasing used heavy equipment like this.
Thanks for your input
those old tractors just aren't worth much. wich is good for you if you want it. its probably worth 1500 or so in scrap, and i wouldn't want alot more than that in it as it sits. you know the engine is bad, and there fore you can't tell about the trans or winch.
tires look ok although i can't seem to make your pics bigger.
if you know this tractor and know the trans and winch are good, thats different. but not more than 1000 different.
Thanks treeslayer, I appreciate the input. Around 1K is what I'm planning on paying. Plus the cost of a friend driving his rig down there. Are parts hard to get for free farmers?
I definitely expect to do a lot of work on this thing to get it operational,
Quote from: crazy4saws on August 13, 2015, 05:17:43 PM
Thanks treeslayer, I appreciate the input. Around 1K is what I'm planning on paying. Plus the cost of a friend driving his rig down there. Are parts hard to get for free farmers?
I definitely expect to do a lot of work on this thing to get it operational,
engine parts, find a detroit parts distributor and you will in the end need a detroit guy to set the rack and governor. i'm not that familiar with tree farmer as far as the trans and winch but prolly just like older timber jacks and or franklins.
I just bought a 230 tj similar condition as yours . Yes it's a "pig in a poke" but there a lot of Guys on this forum who can help you along . My 3-53 was seized and I got her running perfect yesterday , today I got all the hyd...and winch working --maybe I just got lucky on this one . Don't be afraid to tackle this project its only BLOOD, SWET AND GEARS L.O.L.
The older tree farmers had a Cotta transfer case,parts are kinda hard to find for them,the tires alone are worth quite a bit more then $1000 !!!! fix her up. Don
I agree with loggah, 1k is a real good price. You can afford to get it going again, and when you do you will be very happy!!
Couldn't really see what she looks like. Couldn't get the pics any bigger. I would say fix her up. Parts aren't that hard to find. After Market is making a lot of them now. It would make a nice project and it would pull some wood when finished. If those tries are forestry tires they are worth way more than you are paying.
Hey now I own the exact same machine. Pulled a hell of a lot of wood with it. Simple to work on light weight doesn't rut. Easy to move. I rebuilt every inch of of the machine. Parts are easy.
Quote from: ga jones on August 15, 2015, 06:04:06 PM
Hey now I own the exact same machine. Pulled a hell of a lot of wood with it. Simple to work on light weight doesn't rut. Easy to move. I rebuilt every inch of of the machine. Parts are easy.
GA Jones, you said you had the exact machine. If the tires were not filled how much would the skidder weigh? Just an estimate will do. And is your more than 8.5 feet wide? I know that the width will vary depending on the tire.
I'm still wanting to buy it however getting a decent rate on freight seems to be my issue now.
Thanks guys for the support! Really appreciate it
About 9000' and 103 wide
Hey GA Jones, thanks for helping me out with the width and weight on that tree farmer. Do you happen to know the approximate heigth? Next week I plan on going down to Kentucky visually looking it over before saying yes.
My buddy with the low boy trailer feel thru so getting this thing freighted up here is gonna cost more than I would like but still for the price I don't think it's a bad deal.
Being that the engine is none running, what would you guys be looking for on something like this.
I know I'm asking a lot of questions on such an old peice of equipment but I figure there's a lot of knowledge.
I'll post better pics when I get the chance.
Thanks again
what do you mean? as far as whats wrong with the engine? could be any thing from busted block to just a stuck injector........no telling really.
Hey treeslayer, they said the engine was locked up. I'm new to diesels so at this point when I get it home I'll look more into the engine.
I guess I will just be doing a visual inspection over everything. Hopefully the muffler isn't full of water. I'm not gonna open anything up when I go to look at it. I mainly want to confirm dimensions for freight and get model and engine info when I go down there. Plus get a feel for the peolple. Make sure I have a good feeling about everything
locked up is not a detroit thing unless it simply froze from sitting or water intrusion.
If it's locked up it probably got water in it from setting. If that's the case some marvel mystery oil and a few gentle cranks back and forth by hand.as far as height goes I think it's around 9 feet
Yes locked up from water like this,
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21468/P4110030~0.JPG)
But some hard work and parts can make like this,
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21468/P8180005.JPG)
Lets get some full size pictures of the machine, Looks similar in size to my 20,
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21468/p5210003.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/Skidder_1.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/Skidder_2.jpg)
Quote from: tantoy on August 19, 2015, 10:24:08 PM
Lets get some full size pictures of the machine, Looks similar in size to my 20,
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21468/p5210003.jpg)
Tantoy, those pics are sweet. Nice restore job. Thats a treefarmer model 20 right? It looks awesome. Detroit 3-53?
Still getting familiar to posting pics on the forum but I think these worked out better.,
Im new to all things skidders. Ive driven a cat 518 before for a few weeks helping a local logger in highschool and Ive never forgotten it! It was awseome. Im still not positive on what model this oe is, but Ive decided to buy it for sure. Ive got a freight trailer just waiting on what day I pick to go pick it up. Work has been so crazy, which is great because its financing this buy but it sure would be nice to have a saturday or sunday off haha.
I was thinking about taking a portable air compressor with me and filling up the two low tires before loading it. Do you guys thinks it worth it? We are going to load it by pushing it up onto the ramp with a dozer. Im a little nervous about this as Im not sure how the articulating center will act when we go to load it. They just sold another non running skidder and used the dozer to push it up onto a trailer so hopefully it works out. I cant wait to get it home.
Would a ratching come along work well for lifting the blade up for loading? Wrap it around the two bars coming down from the cab and then around the blade, lifting it up.
Thanks for the input guys, Ill keep you all posted on how things go.
That is a c4b way earlier than 72. 64-65 maybe
GA Jones does that make it even more undesirable? They said for sure it has the 3-53detroit not the gas engine that came with them. Let me know what u guys think. I'm planning to go look at it next Wednesday.
That winch is obsolete. Direct drive no clutch. The machine is probably worth about 3500 bucks around here.the rest of the machine is easy to get parts for.
Quote from: ga jones on August 20, 2015, 04:33:14 PM
That is a c4b way earlier than 72. 64-65 maybe
I was thinking the same thing with that type of arch and winch drive. Don't know the model, but would also say it's older than a 72.
You will be fine with using a come along to lift the blade of ground and with a dozer you should not have any trouble getting it on a trailer.
Unless it is a Garrett built TreeFarmer, it would be a late 60's. I thought all the early C4's had ford power. I am by no means an expert though. I defer to those more in the "know". For the right price it has serious potential.
We used chains and binders to keep the skidder from articulating when we loaded it. We lifted blade with loader and chained it up. I like your idea of airing up tires first, help save the tires and easier to load. That machine has much potential!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21468/p2220002~1.jpg)
You tell by the arch. The pipe style is early 60s. That 3-53 is not the original engine. By the looks of the air filter housing its out of an s8 international. You'll know when you go buy the filter.
C4b can car tree farmer. Davco in Farmington Maine has everything for them. A lot of stuff is available at a local auto parts house too.
Well I've got everything set in stone. Going down early Wednesday morning, got a semi coming in around noon. Hopefully on the road by 1.
Tantoy excellent idea on chaining the front and rear axle together to stop it from pivoting. I'm going to use chain come alongs from work. Got three 1.5 ton for this job. I'll definitely use the dozer blade to help lift up the front blade. I hope the tires take air. Would suck if they get even more damaged while transporting home. Taking my brother along for the trip as well.
relieving to hear that Its a decent model and parts are still around.
Ga jones, I'm actually happy that it's a 3-53 and not the original gas engine or ford Diesel. I've heard good and bad things about the Detroit but man they sure sound good, screaming through the woods. Once I have pictures of the name plate and stuff I'll post it. Any specific area the name plates are put on these treefarmers?
From what little I've read 3-53 is a 3 cylinder 2 stroke diesel. Sorry for my ignorance guy, like I said this is my first diesel....even haha. I can repair chainsaws and small gas engines all day. But never messed with a diesel.
Tantoy and ga jones, thanks for all your helpful input thus far!
The serial number plate is under the clutch master cylinder. It doesn't mean anything these days though.
Good decision. They are good old machines. They will pull wood. Frames are solid. Simple to work on. Component machine so low cost if u do your own wrenching. Week point is the axles but keep in mind it is a small machine. Max production machine for 2015? Nope but for part time work it will get u started. U have to climb a little to get up into it but you will survive. :)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/32112/20140816_1517287E2.jpg)
My T.J. 3-53 was locked solid , and couldn't move it with a 4' pipe . Removed valve cover , checked the valves for free play and loaed the cyl.s with penetrating oil over night . The very next day she broke free with that 4' pipe , but just go back and forth easy . She runs perfect --maybe I just got lucky .
Quote from: larry1 on August 22, 2015, 09:36:28 PM
My T.J. 3-53 was locked solid , and couldn't move it with a 4' pipe . Removed valve cover , checked the valves for free play and loaed the cyl.s with penetrating oil over night . The very next day she broke free with that 4' pipe , but just go back and forth easy . She runs perfect --maybe I just got lucky .
Nice! So I have heard Marvel Mystery oil is great for soaking seized rings. Sometimes soaking it for weeks. Has anyone used it? Or is it just an urban myth?
Blue Creeper
When you go to chain up the blade while lifting the blade up make sure to move the valve lever to relieve the pressure and help get the blade up. Definately try and get some air in those tires if you can cause rubber ain't cheap these days. Good luck.
Well the skidder finally made it home. Been on the road since 3am and around 5:30pm we got it unloaded. chaining the front and back axles together was an excellent idea. It wouldnt have loaded or unloaded very well without that. Thanks guys! I know you all enjoy pics so heres a few.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image.jpg)
Here is the engine, I assume its a detroit diesel 3-53.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~0.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~9.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~10.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~1.jpg) tree farmer name plate
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~2.jpg) more engine pics
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~3.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~4.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~5.jpg) As you can see must of the controls and cables for brakes and stuff is broken or missing
These two pics are some of the handy work that was done to this machine before it sat in the woods for 10 plus years.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~6.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~7.jpg)
Here is the bad news on the axles
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~8.jpg)
This skidder is gonna need alot of TLC but it will be worth it.
Do the tree farmer expects still agree with GA Jones that this is a c4b? The model box on the tag has no stampings just the serial which I was told wasnt much help.
I think the first thing Ill do is hook up some batteries and see if the starter works. If not than thats what I tear into first. Let me know what you guys think. Im coming to you expects for advice on this piece of equipment. Like Ive said this is my first diesel and first piece of heavy equipment.
Thanks again!
looks short........2-53 or just the pic makes it look short.
is that last pic the rear?
Glad to see you have it home. Make no mistake you have a project on your hands. Yes that's a 353 and if I were you I would take a 1 1/2 socket and put on the cam nut and see if you can turn it over cause a starter can do some damage if there's water on top of one of those pistons. That crack on the blower cover don't look good to me, may of had water down in the intake and looks like it froze and bust the cover.... possible blower damage, hope not. Good luck with her.
Yep c4b..PR52 Rockwell axles. 353 from an s8 international. T98 4 speed and Cota transfer case. Need pics of the pto to know which model transfer case. There could be a pr 67 if the planetary hub is different looking than the front. cost about 2-2500 to totally rebuild each axle. .the 67 you can't get everything for so hope you don't have one. Webster hydraulic pump If it hasn't been changed. Webster is obsolete. The cylinders are an oddball but packings are redily available. There hard to do so take them to a hydraulic shop to have done. The clutch slave can be rebuilt using a rear drum brake cylinder kit. Reuse the springs that are in it now. You can replace that generator with a Chevy 2 wire alternator.the center pins and steering pins and blade cylinder pins are all the same. Davco has them. The bushings are too. those u can get from bearings and drives. Any other part of that machine you need to know I've rebuilt or replaced look at my gallery. Except that winch. I would look for a gearmatic or Deere 3315,3325. However the rotation may be backwards. I have a solution for that also in my gallery.
So that is a crack on the blower cover. Here I thought it was a vine that had grown and died... that is if the blower cover is the pic showing the GM logo.
Looks like a vine on the blower??? I just looked at the side view pic u have and there both pr52 axles
Well beenthere another look at it and I think your right, sorry we don't have vines up here. :-[
That will keep ya busy for a while.
good luck with it and take lots of pic of her being restored ;D
What looks so strange is rust on a detroit. They usually self lube the exterior of themselves. All joking aside don't be to overwhelmed. mine was similar shape when i got it home and I had second thoughts. The coolest thing about these machines is you can source many of the parts on line and save money or support your local parts places. Your not strapped to a dealer in other words.
Keep asking questions and posting pictures!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21468/P3150025.JPG)
Mr Jones knows his c4s. :)
Quote from: bushmechanic on August 26, 2015, 08:40:44 PM
Glad to see you have it home. Make no mistake you have a project on your hands. Yes that's a 353 and if I were you I would take a 1 1/2 socket and put on the cam nut and see if you can turn it over cause a starter can do some damage if there's water on top of one of those pistons. That crack on the blower cover don't look good to me, may of had water down in the intake and looks like it froze and bust the cover.... possible blower damage, hope not. Good luck with her.
Good advice bush mechanic, I hadn't thought about damaging the engine by cranking the starter. Last night I tore into. Removed the air filter so I could get a pipe wrench on the front sheave that runs the fan. I didn't put a cheater in it but it was tight. I didn't see the 1.5 nut you were talking about. I'm sure if this is common but there is a universal joint coming off the front crank shaft after the sheave. It powers a hydraulic pump.
Yes you guys are correct. It's a vine
Quote from: chester_tree _farmah on August 27, 2015, 09:10:27 PM
Mr Jones knows his c4s. :)
It most certainly seems that way Chester! He knows his way around these treefarmers. I'm very grateful for being apart of this forum. It seems this forum has a lot of members with treefarmer experience.
No backstabbing or drama from other members and every one seems willing to give out their knowledge. Not something you find everyday.
I'll be be posting more pics within the hour from last night.
I'm back on the road for the next 4 days for work. But here are some pictures from last night. Sorry about the multiple posts, doing all this from my phone.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~11.jpg)
It seems that the seller poured a quart of ATF down the exhaust manifold. The empty bottle was under the cover. Would this oil reach the Pistons? I'm thinking not because the exhaust valves are more than likely closed. The air filter was packed full of gunk, and all the flexible intake hose was rotted, from the intake to the air filter and from re air filter to the blower. I took the valve cover off to see how the rocker arms and springs look. Had some rust but not terrible.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~14.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~13.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~12.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~15.jpg)
I think my next step is to get a good look at the piston and cylinders. This way I can pour oil right on top of them and let it sit for a week. What do you guys think?
In order to get to the Pistons I will need to remove the valves and rocker arm assembly???
I was told by a co worker that transition fluid works very well for cleaning things up and break down the gunk and rust that could be locking the engine up. He suggested using a mixture of kerosene and atf, and that buying marvel mystery oil was a waste. I know, everyone has their own opinions but if it saves me some cash than I'm for it. Any thoughts?
Also if anyone has a service manual or IPL for the 3-53 Detroit I would really like to have one!
Thanks guys
I would just rebuild it or find a good used one one other thing to remember is when you start working with it keep the manifold clean of sticks and leafs good way to burn it up the second set of pics show the crap on the manifold you don't want that we use a piece of window screen rolled up and put it between the manifold and valve cover/head to keep the crap from getting in there and clean it every other week
U can in frame it. Heavy duty kits.com detroits are inexpensive to rebuild. Pull the governor linkage and crossover lines the rack then remove the head. There are no head gaskets on a Detroit. Have the head gone over at a machine shop the valve guides wear. There are service manuals on cd on eBay. Try to find a local Detroit guy to set your rack. That's one thing I don't mess with. I have a guy for that. There is a tool for removing the liners but u can use an air chisel with a blunt end to push them up. There is a tool for injector timing also that's a must. eBay has them also. It's probably .460. If u find a Detroit guy he should have them.I just came back from Golden Rule equipment this morning with a pair of complete PR67 axles for mine.
what he said except the timing tool is 1.460,i used a vernier caliper setting the injectors on the 3-53 i had.
Throw the valve cover back on and pressure wash really good. The reality is that much more of the machine will likely come apart and having things cleat to start with is a time saver. Walmart has the purple cleaner or super clean de greaser. put it in a pump sprayer and spray the machine down in sections and pressure wash. once you really get it torn down you will be glad you cleaned it the best you could.
I like the direct Starter fluid line on the blower housing. good luck and keep the pics coming , really enjoy this stuff.
Congratulations on your purchase. It sounds like you've never logged commercially before or owned any heavy equipment. But to those of us who have, we really admire your gumption in preserving the old cable machine. You gotta admit, she is a proud beauty as she sits. Maybe we're (I am!) getting old and nostalgic, but the skills it'll take to see your project to the end are disappearing as fast as the old skidders. Most kids now have little interest in learning to weld for themselves or twist wrenches, or do manual labor. Staring at the screens of all the crazy electronic devices is their prime interest I'm afraid. You'll learn a ton along the way, and some day be able to say, "I did it myself." In case you haven't noticed, there's a ton of interest in your thread (viewed over 2000 times) because those of us with sawdust in their blood are thrilled that you've decided to restore a throwback to the days when a guy with a skidder and chainsaw could feed his family, work in the great north woods (for me Maine) and feel good and tired at the end of the day, knowing he did an honest day's work in a profession that dates back to the settlement of the continent. Thank you and good luck.
sandersen,
Thank you for your heartfelt post.Taking on a rebuild like this can only build confidence and lead to better things.Indeed it is very nice to see and the good will that this forum encourages is a gold mine.
Best of luck on the rebuild,
Mick
Yep , they can be a " pig in a poke " when they sit too long like my 230 . Once discovering the broken walking beam bracket, the seized 3-53 and no transmission , I scratched my head and almost through in the towel . But with the encouragement of my local buddys and this forum , I bit the bullet , spent some time and cash and give her another life . So enjoy , have fun, keep us posted -- it's all about BLOOD ,SWET , AND GEARS . L.O.L.
atf and acetone is a wonderful penetrate, prolly better than any thing you can buy. look on the bay for a service manual, its full of them.
+1 on cleaning first.
I used this for manual when rebuilding mine. I think when I was done I had printed out most of the manual.
http://igor.chudov.com/manuals/Detroit-Diesel/Detroit-Diesel-Series-53/
Quote from: tantoy on August 28, 2015, 11:22:26 PM
Throw the valve cover back on and pressure wash really good. The reality is that much more of the machine will likely come apart and having things cleat to start with is a time saver. Walmart has the purple cleaner or super clean de greaser. put it in a pump sprayer and spray the machine down in sections and pressure wash. once you really get it torn down you will be glad you cleaned it the best you could.
I hadnt given it much thought but the more I do I realize pressure washing it is the way to go. Thanks tantoy for the input. Hopefully by the end of the week I will have is cleaned up.
Tantoy thanks for posting that link to the 53 series manual. I purchased the Detroit service manual this morning before seeing your post(Almost 400 pages) and it should arrive mid week.
All weekend Ive been thinking about my next step after pressure washing it. I would prefer to get it running and test out a few things like transmission, hydraulics, engine and winch. However as seen in the pic the jack shaft going to the front axle is all but fallen out of the axle so probably isnt a good idea to drive it around. Further possible damage could occur. Im almost debating taking the engine out of the skidder and doing a rebuild on it in the shop. My other option is to remove the head and see how the pistons and cylinders look then decide on pulling engine. Correct me if Im wrong but if you remove the head you are also removing the rack and governor? At this point he fuel pump is probably plugged up along with the filter and the blower might need cleaned out. When the valve cover was removed I noticed alot of rust on the rocker arms and other components and Im not sure if its ok to test run it in that condition. Plus the injectors could be plugged.......perhaphs I should just step back and read the manual before making any decisions? Im not worried about diving into this engine however I dont want to cause more failure or problems. I hope this makes scence guys. Your thoughts are most welcome!
Thanks
Quote from: sandersen on August 29, 2015, 11:58:05 AM
Congratulations on your purchase. It sounds like you've never logged commercially before or owned any heavy equipment. But to those of us who have, we really admire your gumption in preserving the old cable machine. You gotta admit, she is a proud beauty as she sits. Maybe we're (I am!) getting old and nostalgic, but the skills it'll take to see your project to the end are disappearing as fast as the old skidders. Most kids now have little interest in learning to weld for themselves or twist wrenches, or do manual labor. Staring at the screens of all the crazy electronic devices is their prime interest I'm afraid. You'll learn a ton along the way, and some day be able to say, "I did it myself." In case you haven't noticed, there's a ton of interest in your thread (viewed over 2000 times) because those of us with sawdust in their blood are thrilled that you've decided to restore a throwback to the days when a guy with a skidder and chainsaw could feed his family, work in the great north woods (for me Maine) and feel good and tired at the end of the day, knowing he did an honest day's work in a profession that dates back to the settlement of the continent. Thank you and good luck.
WOW Sanderson! I really appreciate the support from you and all the members who have replied to this post. Unitil you mentioned I had no idea it was veiwed 2000 time! Yes Ive never logged commercially, for a few weeks in the summer after graduating I drove a cat 518 for a local logger and never forgot it. Ive always enjoyed reading peoples post on skidders, chainsaws, cutting technique, logging strategies, wood burning and everything else that is on this forum. Its nice to finally start interacting with all the knowledgeable members on something that I truly enjoy, forestry and logging! Instead of reading other members thread on repairing their skidder Im the one who is living it and it awesome. Ive always wanted to work around wood especially the harvesting aspect ever since highschool but never thought it would work out.
Your absolutely right, working hard to provide for a family doing an honest days work in a profession you enjoy and coming home tired at the end of the day isnt something respected anymore in today society. The pride in owning a company, knowing your doing right by the forests, landowners and yourself is something I hope to achieve. While I do own modern equipment such as the new 550xp(auto tune carb) the majority of what I own is older equipment because its repairable and built well. I appreciate your post and hope you and everyone else continues to enjoy this thread. I hope to post pics weekly on the progress of the skidder, work schedule permitting. Thanks again
Quote from: crazy4saws on August 30, 2015, 09:31:47 PM
Quote from: tantoy on August 28, 2015, 11:22:26 PM
Throw the valve cover back on and pressure wash really good. The reality is that much more of the machine will likely come apart and having things cleat to start with is a time saver. Walmart has the purple cleaner or super clean de greaser. put it in a pump sprayer and spray the machine down in sections and pressure wash. once you really get it torn down you will be glad you cleaned it the best you could.
I hadnt given it much thought but the more I do I realize pressure washing it is the way to go. Thanks tantoy for the input. Hopefully by the end of the week I will have is cleaned up.
Tantoy thanks for posting that link to the 53 series manual. I purchased the Detroit service manual this morning before seeing your post(Almost 400 pages) and it should arrive mid week.
All weekend Ive been thinking about my next step after pressure washing it. I would prefer to get it running and test out a few things like transmission, hydraulics, engine and winch. However as seen in the pic the jack shaft going to the front axle is all but fallen out of the axle so probably isnt a good idea to drive it around. Further possible damage could occur. Im almost debating taking the engine out of the skidder and doing a rebuild on it in the shop. My other option is to remove the head and see how the pistons and cylinders look then decide on pulling engine. Correct me if Im wrong but if you remove the head you are also removing the rack and governor? At this point he fuel pump is probably plugged up along with the filter and the blower might need cleaned out. When the valve cover was removed I noticed alot of rust on the rocker arms and other components and Im not sure if its ok to test run it in that condition. Plus the injectors could be plugged.......perhaphs I should just step back and read the manual before making any decisions? Im not worried about diving into this engine however I dont want to cause more failure or problems. I hope this makes scence guys. Your thoughts are most welcome!
Thanks
I agree. it is very easy to pull the engine/trans and work on that by itself. If you have a loader or forklift , ect.
Quote from: bushmechanic on August 26, 2015, 08:40:44 PM
Glad to see you have it home. Make no mistake you have a project on your hands. Yes that's a 353 and if I were you I would take a 1 1/2 socket and put on the cam nut and see if you can turn it over cause a starter can do some damage if there's water on top of one of those pistons. That crack on the blower cover don't look good to me, may of had water down in the intake and looks like it froze and bust the cover.... possible blower damage, hope not. Good luck with her.
Been debating all week on whether to completely pull the detroit out for a rebuild or try and get it running first. Well thanks to bushmechanics advice Ive got good news to report back. put a 3/4" drive 1 1/2" socket with 4 foot cheater on the cam nut
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~19.jpg) I believe there are two cams correct? The one in the pic is on the left side. And it moved so Im stoked! I know this doesnt mean Im out of the woods but its good news. Next Ill get two batteries hooked up in parallel and see if she turns over via the starter then spray a little ether in it and get it to pop. Thoughts?
After I moved the cam back and forth while watching the rocker arms move aswell, I noticed liquid leaking from the block. It was coming from the line Im pointing to in the pic.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~18.jpg) I think it was rotten fuel as it smelled almost like alcohol. The oil in the sump of the block doesnt smell like the liquid coming out of the tube. Can anyone identify the function of this line? It does not connect to anything at the other end. My guess is it has something to do with the fuel pump???
My detroit manual should be here tomorrow so hopefully I wont have to keep asking about all the little things. Diesels are new to me.
Thanks guys!
Quote from: loggah on August 13, 2015, 06:08:52 PM
The older tree farmers had a Cotta transfer case,parts are kinda hard to find for them,the tires alone are worth quite a bit more then $1000 !!!! fix her up. Don
Don I think(actually am really hopeing)this skidder doesnt have the cotta tansfer case since its been said more than once that its very hard to find those parts anymore. The tag says chelsea products michigan. Is this a good thing?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~16.jpg)
Treefarmer experts, are the chelsea transfer case parts/parts break down available from Davco?
The lower bearings on the transfer case for this skidder were shot. Tonight I removed the seat/hydraulic resivor, then loosened all the connecting drive shafts and control levers along with the 3 larger bolts that hold the case to the frame.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~17.jpg)
Tomorrow after work Ill get the neighbors bob cat and pull it for an entire rebuild. Dont worry Ill have plenty of pics! Thanks
That chelsea tag yer lookin at is on the PTO that drives the winch, the transfer case is the part that's attached to it (below it).
UN
I believe the tube you are pointing to is the airbox drain,condensation and old oil,fuel,probably coming out of it. The engine has 1 camshaft and the other pulley is on the balancer shaft. The manual will help a lot. ;D
Chelsea is only the name of the power take off not the transfer case. Looks like a Cotta to me. Good that she's not seized.
just make shur the rack moves freely you can move it by hand to see if the injectors are working before you start it I got lucky and my injectors where stuck closed could have been vary interesting if they where stuck open
^What he said.
Before starting an unfamiliar piece of equipment, I make sure I know how to shut it down.
That tubular rod running parallel to the valve train is the actuator for the injector racks. The rack position determines fuel delivery. If you disconnect that from the governor link, it should 'roll' back and forth easily.
If it doesn't move easily, then the engine might get stuck at full or partial throttle.
Roll the engine over with the valve cover off and see if each injector plunger moves up and down in time with each middle rocker arm.
On several occasions, I've seen plungers stick in the 'down' position on engines that sat for a long time. If so, you'll need to either free them up, or replace the injectors.
Sometimes the crossover fuel lines can pit through, and leak diesel into the crankcase.
Detroits are fairly simple once you familiarize yourself with the operating principles.
Looks like fun project.
And get a good set of cans for your ears. :)
That's TFS 191 cotta transfer case Chelsea pto. All the parts are available new if you want to pay the price. Cotta is still in business and Will make the parts if you want them bad enough. Detroit has one cam shaft and one balance shaft. Davco in Farmington Maine has most parts in stock. I have a break down of that transfer case
This skidder was pretty close to me. I had called about it but just never got around to go look at it. Hope it all works out.
Hope everyone is enjoying their Labor Day weekend!
Removed cotta transfer case, both fuel filters and the starter yesterday. Pressure washed the outside of the transfer case and drained the oil.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~22.jpg)
The starter would work but needed a push from a screw driver to start. Tore the starter apart and found the brush springs were sticking and the armature was dirty. I figure I might aswell replace the brushes while its apart. The manual says to remove the plugs on the starter house and add oil to these spots to keep the wick wet and lube the bushings. It didnt say what kind of oil. Any recommendations?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~20.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~21.jpg)
Picking up the fuel filters from napa this afternoon. I hope to get some sweg lock fittings and stainless tubing to replace some of the fuel lines.
Been kicking around the idea of buying a cheap sandblaster and cleaning up these parts I have off then painting them with a high heat or engine paint. Any recommendations.
Ive read the manual covering general information and the lubrication system. I didnt see any info of what type engine oil to use during what temperature and so forth. What do you guys suggest?
GA Jones has said the axles on this skidder are Rockwell PR52. Where is the model or information on these axles? I know Im going to tear into in the front one as the drive shaft going into the differential has a worn out bearing.
Thanks guys
QuoteThe starter would work but needed a push from a screw driver to start.
How does one push a starter with a screw driver? just curious.....
Hey beenthere, I had the starter sitting on the bench with a 12volt battery hooked up. I watched The voltage drop via a meter and whenever I energized the solenoid coil no change. The starter would spin freely. So I took a screw driver, placed it on the gear and pushed this spinning the shaft. While doing this I applied voltage to the opposite side of solenoid. The starter would take off so to me that says it's working but needs cleaned up. That's just what I've found on other equipment.
I tested the solenoid separately and it does work.
The springs that push the brushes against the armature were sticking and not allowing contact.
What are your thoughts?
The axle numbers are on a small metal tag riveted to the outside of axle tube. If you still have a tag you are a lucky man! If u do have one please share it. Be interested to see the numbers.
There are a few posts on here about which oil is best in a Detroit. Not sure you will find agreement on one but if u search you will find opinions for sure.
Paint won't make a difference on heavy castings like that but it will definitely look good. Getting all the grease off and crap out of that compartment is the important thing to help prevent fires.
What was on it for a brake? Was it converted to disc or have the drum?
Looks good. Keep up the good work.
Question to others. Will the cotta transfer case on c4 models with the winch behind the seat accept a pto? I checked my transfer case and there is a flat cover bolted over where that pto mounts in the picture above. I would like to move my winch to the rear section when I build a better cab. I know a hydraulic motor would be best but I don't use it fulltime and $ is a factor.
Thanks CTF
Yes u can put a pto on it. The rotation may be an issue. It depends on witch transfer case you have and the winch your using.
Quote from: ga jones on September 06, 2015, 04:57:34 PM
Yes u can put a pto on it. The rotation may be an issue. It depends on witch transfer case you have and the winch your using.
Thank you sir. It is the old Gearmatic 9.
I do believe you must get the pto from Davco
It may be worth your time and $$$ to take the starter to an auto electric shop and have it rebuilt :)
Yes I agree about the starter. It's under 150.00 here. I have a rebuilt in stock if you can't get it done reasonable.
Zendex makes a handy spot blaster. I use it mostly for weld/braze prep on cast, or where I don't want to thin the metal with a grinder. Just make sure you mask off any crucial surfaces, as the grit gets into everything.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30352/Spotblaster.jpg)
As to the oil for motor bushings and the like, I use Velocite spindle oil, mostly because I have it on hand for the milling machines. You want something light that won't gum up or get stiff at lower temperatures.
Make sure the solenoid plunger/bore is free of oil/grease.
Quote from: crazy4saws on September 06, 2015, 01:23:12 PM
Hey beenthere, I had the starter sitting on the bench with a 12volt battery hooked up. I watched The voltage drop via a meter and whenever I energized the solenoid coil no change. The starter would spin freely. So I took a screw driver, placed it on the gear and pushed this spinning the shaft. While doing this I applied voltage to the opposite side of solenoid. The starter would take off so to me that says it's working but needs cleaned up. That's just what I've found on other equipment.
I tested the solenoid separately and it does work.
The springs that push the brushes against the armature were sticking and not allowing contact.
What are your thoughts?
when testing the solenoid separately do you hook it up the same way as trying to use the starter but not bolted to it never heard/seen this done before
Coxy you could test the solenoid by applying voltage to the smaller post. However if you energize a coil with no load in the magnetic field you could damage the coil or short it. Either put the plunger back in the "socket" or coil because the plunger is pulled in when the coil is energized or put a screw driver it the socket so you dont burn up the coil. Im terrible at explaining things. Maybe this week I can put together a video of what IM talking about.
As to why I needed to use the screw driver to "push" the gear thus getting the starter to begin spinning. I believe it was due to the brushes not making full contact on the armature.
Ive got a place in town Im gonna try and get parts for the starter from.
I started pulling the ransfer case apart today. Its definataly gonna need alot more work han I orignally thought.
Chester, I havent even dug into the brake system yet. By the end of this week I hope to have the starter, fuel filters and air filter back on. If I find tags on my axle I will most defiantly post pics.
Thanks guys
Quote from: North River Energy on September 06, 2015, 11:14:00 PM
Zendex makes a handy spot blaster. I use it mostly for weld/braze prep on cast, or where I don't want to thin the metal with a grinder. Just make sure you mask off any crucial surfaces, as the grit gets into everything.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30352/Spotblaster.jpg)
As to the oil for motor bushings and the like, I use Velocite spindle oil, mostly because I have it on hand for the milling machines. You want something light that won't gum up or get stiff at lower temperatures.
Make sure the solenoid plunger/bore is free of oil/grease.
Thanks North River Energy for info. Ill post a pic of my sand blasting rig. its nothing special just borrowed it from a buddy. I cleaned up alot of parts with it today but need to buy more sand. Ill be posting pics of the cleaned parts before priming and then painted. I know its not necessary and might not stay on but atleast the parts will be cleaner when it comes time for an engine rebuild.
Ill have to check out velocite and see if I can get some.
Started the tear down of the Cotta Transfer case today. All in all not as bad as I figured it would be as the bearings were very worn. There are a few things I would like some expert opinions on.If Im asking too many questions just let me know. This is my first time working on alot of this kind of stuff so some questions may seem like common knowledge to those of you who have a few or more heavy equipment repairs under your belt. Thanks for the patience.
Enjoy the pictures
#1
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~23.jpg)
#2 Im pointing to what I believe is wear on these two gears. Should they be replaced?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~24.jpg)
#3 This one shows the location of the gears.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~25.jpg)
#4 Below is the bottom splined shaft. One end goes to the front axle the other to the rear. Is this wear on the splined shaft or is this normal? Does the spline shaft need replaced?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~26.jpg)
#5 pic of the gears in the top portion of the case
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~27.jpg) #6 is this a casting mark or blemish?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~28.jpg)
#7 these shavings(looks like brass to me) where all found in the dip or cup that the needle is pointing to. this dip seems to hold oil for the upper bearing, probably so during inital start up its not ran dry? However I can not seem to find any brass parts in this case so Im not sure where it came from.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~29.jpg)
#8 Chealse PTO which is bolted on top of case directly above upper bearing were I found all the brass shavings. Still no brass shavings or parts that I can see.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~30.jpg)
#9 the bearings, left side is bottom bearings, then middle and right side is top bearings. Im going to confirm in the IPL but I beleive someone put in a regular ball bearing for the lower bearing instead of a timken taper bearing.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~31.jpg)
#10 just a pic of the cover
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~33.jpg)
Cotta emailed me back today with a generic service and maintenance manual and parts list. very detailed. I hope to finish breaking it down by the end of the week and get together a parts list.
In the mean time any expert advice or personal experience on some of my questions above is greatly appreciated. . Thank you guys for all your help and time. Hopefu
Well done crazy4saws your underway for a rebuild. In pic #2 those gears are worn pretty good and should be replaced but they will more than likely still work ok. That wear comes from shifting hi to low or reverse, and is made worse by not coming to a complete stop before shifting or jamming into gear. In pic#4 that is worn from the nut that holds the yoke coming loose you don't need to replace it unless there is a lot of play in the splines. Make sure to tighten the yoke nut real good to avoid this. I would say #6 is a casting mark. Looks good some new bearings and seals will go a long ways in that transfer case.
Like bushmechaic said Pic 4 is from shifting. Did you find the detent ball and spring? They need to be replaced. That gives you positive shift.all the bearings and seals can be found at BDU .do you still need the break down?
I agree with bushmechanic, I would say #2 gear wear i would not be to concerned unless it was popping out of gear.
#4 , the small step where you are pointing looks like where the bearing is pressed on?
The shavings are most likely from a worn or disingrated bearing race section. Some are made with plated bronze. It could have been replaced already but they may have not cleaned it out? I am thinking anyway.
Check your yokes I had to put speedy sleeves on mine.
Thanks Bushmechanic for the encouragement and the explanation on this tear down. I"ll get the prices on those two gears and see how much they are. A typical in town machine shop wouldn't make these right?
Tantoy, my first instinct is to just reuse the gears however I dont want the wear to tranfers to a good gear or get it all together just to have it pop out of gear or fail later. Would like to get her running and put some time on it first before investing too much. I guess the true factor will be the price.
Chester, good suggestion I like your theories. That very well could have happened, I believe all that I can do is clean it up real good , and use good parts.
Ed K, I wasnt sure what speedy sleeves were until I googled them. Wow excellent suggestion. I believe I will invest in those when I put the universals or yokes back together.
Quote from: ga jones on September 09, 2015, 07:47:30 AM
Like bushmechaic said Pic 4 is from shifting. Did you find the detent ball and spring? They need to be replaced. That gives you positive shift.all the bearings and seals can be found at BDU .do you still need the break down?
GA Jones, Yes I found the detent balls. Here is a pic, I just forgot to post it when I did everything else.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~34.jpg)
Per the manual both should have been springs with a ball, however the one seems to have a spring and stem.
No Cotta has me covered on the parts break down. However if you are still able to get me the breakdown for the rockwell axles I would really appreciate it.
BDU, is this a website? I tried googling it but nothing came of it besides battle dress uniforms! I called Davco the other day and they were suppose to call me back with a price on some parts but never did. I asked for John, because in other posts people mentioned him as someone withalot of tree farmer knowledge. The guy said he no longer works thre. Bummer.
I feel like Im making headway however there is still alot to do before its ready for a test run. Kinda overwhelming at times but learning and having fun on something Ive always wanted to own seems to keep things exciting.
Thanks again guys for all the help and support. Id still be debating over whether to purchase it or not haha
Loving this thread.... cone_1
Bearings and drives unlimited. Davco without john is a real bummer!!! There is no other source for these real old machines though. I would call them back and ask what's going on.some of the stuff is generic you can get anywhere but not all. Those pr52 axles came in timberjack's to and in case wheel loaders and 680k backhoes.Aftermarket parts inc. North Carolina is who makes most of the forestry stuff you can't get from OEM. Call them direct for axle stuff. The transmission is from a ford truck.sometimes it's just easier to get from Davco rather than chasing and spending all day on the phone.
Quote from: DeerMeadowFarm on September 10, 2015, 09:54:54 AM
Loving this thread.... cone_1
Im glad your enjoying it man! When its all done Im sure Ill post some videos of it pulling wood! Thanks for reading
Got a few pics, nothing real special. Oddly enough had the flu on Friday and Saturday so limited amount got done this weekend. I sandblasted the primary and secondary fule filters, a few of the brackets, and the oil sump of the air cleaner last weekend. The top part of the air filter wasn't de greased at the time. All openings were taped before blasting and painting.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~49.jpg)
Here are the finished parts with 2 coats primer, 3 coats paint, and 2 coats clear. All high temp rated. After I spent all the time it did kinda seem like a waste but hey the parts look good.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~42.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~43.jpg)
I drained and removed the hydraulic reservoir tank when I removed the transfer case to get it out of the way and to repair a bunch of leaking hoses. I hate to ask this question but is the piece that I am pointing to in the picture as breather/fill port or just a breather and the 1/2 plug to the right is the fill port instead? If it is a fill/breather what special trick is needed to open it? It spins in both directions but nothing happens.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~44.jpg)
Thanks everyone, hopefully this weekend I will have some footage of the 3-53 running. Ive got the starter almost rebuilt.
The breather should pull straight up and off. Some of those are held in place with a two prong expanding spring that grabs the inside of the pipe. Maybe rock it back and forth as you pull.
Quote from: North River Energy on September 14, 2015, 10:28:54 PM
The breather should pull straight up and off. Some of those are held in place with a two prong expanding spring that grabs the inside of the pipe. Maybe rock it back and forth as you pull.
yep
Looks great!
Makes me want to start pulling my one apart! (C4d)
I Also like to clean up and paint as i go, cleaned up things are easier to spot leaks on and stuff doesnt stick as easily to a nice paint surface which helps with crud buildup/fire issues in my view.
Keep it up!
Cheers
Justin
detroit alpine green spray paint!
http://www.amazon.com/Dupli-Color-DE1618-Ceramic-Detroit-Diesel/dp/B00295T6G8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1442541754&sr=8-1&keywords=alpine+detroit
Quick post, hot starter rebuilt and it's turning engine over fine. If I put a gauge on secondary filter which should fuel pump discharge what psi should I see? Also what vacuum should be seen on pump suction?
Working up in Michigan so should be home tonight. I will post more stuff when I'm home thanks
According to the manual pressure at inlet manifold = 45-70 with a minimum of 35( PSI)
suction at inlet=6 clean system and 12 dirty system (inches of mercury)
Thanks for that info grassfed. I just went through my manuals and searched any section concerning fuel systems and found nothing stating that. What section did you that from if you dont mind me asking.
I discounted the inlet line to the primary filter and used a separate pump to pull through that line. I flushed a couple of gallons out of pure thick yellow garbage. Once it cleaned up I reconnected to the primary and attempted to start. Nothing coming out of return line back to fuel tank. I removed both suction and discharge lines off pump and confirmed they were clear. Hooked suction back up and made sure the primary filter was full of fuel and cranked for about 10 seconds 3 separate time but no fuel came out of the discharge line on the pump, which was still disconnected. At one point I put a vacuum guage directly connected to the pump suction and read about 5 or 10 inches. However that gauge is probably not very accurate. Ive got to find a decent one in my shop or just go get one then Ill hook it up to the primary filter and test.
So Ive been reading the manual for atleast an hour or so. I guess at this point the pump needs to be gone through, but seeing that possible vacuum makes me think its something else or is somehow air bound.
The starter is working great, I replaced all 3 bronze bushings, oil wicks, along with new brushes and the brush holder. The springs were rusted badly but after soaking in some fluid they are working great. So $40 in misc parts and my time got it running. Can you post videos on the forum? I know you can link a youtube video but I dont have a youtube account.
Tantoy thanks for the link on the paint. Im a real big fan of the timberjack orange/red color and was thinking about painting this treefarmer that color when the time comes. I figure the black engine color and some other accessories would make it look even better. I hope this doesnt upset anyone about the color choice. Besides its a long ways off before anything like that gets done.
JustinW_NZ thanks for the post! I checked out your gallary. Your tree farmer looks nice, but not as shinny as that new loader!! and then I seen the cat528......I really thought that machine looked sweat. Those had the 6 cyclinder I believe while the 518 had the 4 cylinder. That grapple attachment seems kind small for such a big machine. Nice set up
I would post some pics but I really dont have much to progress done. Sorry guys
The pump drive may be stripped out but sounds air locked. What I do to get a 353 started is to put a can of fuel over the engine and get the fuel comming gravity flow to the primary filter... quickest way I've found to get them going. The drive is a small square of tubing that drives the fuel pump and the earlier ones were pretty thin and prone to wearing through.
You can pressurize the fuel tank. Detroit is super sensitive to air in the system.I have spare rebuilt fuel pumps if you need.
Thanks bushmechanic and GA Jones for the help. I finally go it running....for a short time that is before I shut it down. I tried bushmechanics suggestion first and it seemed like it was getting some air out but it was still bound. I couldnt apply air pressure to the fuel tank and try to start it at the same time as I didnt have anyone there to help. So I pulled the return fuel line off the block, took the hose and pressure the nozzle of the air chuck into it while leaving the lid on the tank on and that got things going. Had a few fuel leaks to fix once the lines were pressurized. After alot of spatting and sputtering it started running for a few seconds at a time then it stayed running till something happened and it took off! I had a piece of wood ready in case of this and shut it down. Started back up and it went screaming away again. I got it on video too but Im not sure how to post that on here at this time. So im thinking injectors, governer, or air leak?? I want to post the videos so you hear what it does. At first it idles and runs good but then it just takes off.
I admit Im trying to cut corners by not going through all the injects before trying to start it. Hope you guys understand, just trying to get it running and see what I got.
Tore down the remaining parts of the cotta today.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~56.jpg)
This is one of the intermediate gears. There is more play in that gear whil eo nthe splined shaft than I care for. Notice the square groves seem to have a hook. I believe this is from said play.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~54.jpg)
I cant tell if the opposite gear in the intermediate section has the same wear as I cant for the life of me get this slotted screw to budge. Any suggestions?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~55.jpg)
Removed the hydraulic filter piece by piece. I like everything so far on this skidder but the hydraulic filter location. Whom ever designated that for the location of a serviceable was clearly not thinking. Absolutely no way to pull the filter without making a mess if you can even get to the bottom nut. Going to relocate is elsewhere.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~53.jpg)
Hopefully the filter can be picked up at napa.
As a side note I did get the hydraulic tank fill/breather off. Felt like an idiot afterwards though haha
Thats all the photos for today. Doesnt seem like alot but it was along day and much was accomplished. So far I have removed about three 1/2 full shop vacs of grease, dirt, mice bedding, grease, twigs, leaves, grease, pine needles and then some more grease! lol Thank goodness this thing has a bottom guard that removes so I can get all that grease too!
Got alot of parts cleaning to do and some fabrications to build.
Need to get my bearings and seals ordered soon and pick up some more sand for blasting. Money is tight for now, trying to purchase some all wooded land near the house. Hasnt been logged in over 25 years, excellent woods and a great place to test out the c4b when its ready. Hopefully all goes well. meeting with my forester on Thursday to review potential value of timber.
Hope everyone had a great weekend and hopefully some of you were logging. I wish I had been!
I found the fuel pressure specs in my 1980 Detroit Diesel Engines Series 53 Manual they are in 13.2 Engine Operating Conditions. There are all sorts of useful specs there. Airbox pressure, Exhaust Back Pressure...and such. It is located towad the back of my manual. 13.2 is six pages long.
Are you certain the center of that gear is an actual screw, and it's not some sort of press-fit 'drive' socket?
Each injector rack and pinion assembly should move freely without binding. Also the control tube pivots, such that the tube swings easily. And the various elements of the governor can get gummed up with old oil sludge.
Bet that change in rpm got your attention. :o
If there was oil in the cylinders and in the intake tract that would cause a run away
Split that bearing and get it off before you go any further with that shaft
Found the problem!!!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~57.jpg) sorry for the pics being upside down.
I had it running with a board over the intake with a small crack to let it run for a few minutes. I was able to notice a few things oil pressure was 20 to 30 if the guage is correct and fuel pressure was 15 to 20 but I think I know why that is. The governer is stuck wide open.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~59.jpg)
In the first pic the screw drive is pointing to the lever that runs from the govern to the rack. I traced it back and all the connections and rods are free until you reach the shaft that goes though the bottom of the govern box into the fuel pump. This shaft must allow more or less pressure to the injectors. Maybe tomorrow I will get time to read up on how to disassemble the govern. I know guys if I had followed some of your earileir suggestions and gone through everything there wouldn't be a problem right now. I guess that shows how young and strong headed I still am haha.
Here is what the rocker arm cover looked liked when I pulled it. Strange to see this clear stuff in certain spots. Not sure what it is.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~60.jpg)
Thats the news on the detroit. Expect I seem to have found some more oil leaks to fix since it ran longer today.
Here is the clutch slave valve. Its too far gone to repair just gonna buy a new one.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~58.jpg)
Grassfed thanks for sharing where you found that info. Every little thing helps.
North energy, no sir Im not positive that its an actual screw and I see where your coming from. The opposite site had a counter sunk allen screw in it with a special washer.
Oh indeed the rpms got my attention. When it first started it seemed to idle but then it just took off and it goes fast. All I could do to get the board across the intake. I wont lie I definitely babied it but then again I have never been around one. However the real attention getter was when the radiator shroud which helps direct the air through the fins dropped down and the universal joint for the hydraulic pump which was disconnected starter hitting it making all this racket but also shooting little sparks at me. Wasnt sure if the engine was blowing up or gonna self destruct. haha
I created a you tube account and am currently uploading some videos for you all. Ill provide the link when its ready.
Mr Jones as always thank you very much for your help. Im definately going to look into to replacing that gear with the worn spline keys.
Tomorrow I should have the remaining bearings off the shafts.
Thanks again everyoine for helping me out!
Now you know what it feels like in the gut to have one take off on you. Probably won't do that again, right? :D
That's what effective learning is about. Making little mistakes that leave a lasting impression without harm to operator or machine.
And just because.(Love the sound on this runaway :o)
https://youtu.be/3NRaqgab0_w (https://youtu.be/3NRaqgab0_w)
Count the turns on the adjusters when you disassemble the governor. Even if you have the manual, it makes things a bit easier to reset.
Very true north river energy, words of wisdom! In will be going through r the governer and rack system before reforming it. Good idea on counting turns, at least that should get me in range and then later Have a Detroit tech do the finishing adjustments.
Not only is there a lot to learn mechanically but also about repairing things in general and being thorough the first time. It still amazes me that there are so many people on here interested about the project and those who are so willing to share their knowledge. You find that less and less each day. Thanks for the lesson :)
Try these links
http://youtu.be/NRAl-llyNb8
http://youtu.be/ySXyJ9MKzqk
Yep they work
Very cool!!!, Thanks for taking the time to post the vids!
Good job! One thought I would not make it too much of a habit of stopping it by cutting off the intake. The vacuum created is said to have the potential to damage the blower seals.
Glad you guys enjoyed the video guys!
Grassfed thanks for the tip on shut down via intake. I wont make a habit of it. I will start using the fuel shut off on the govern.
Heres a few pics from tonights findings. Tore apart one of the master cylinders and prepared it for a rebuild.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image.jpeg)
Finished removing the last two bearings for the transfer case. Which is when I found this......someones previous welding repairs to the intermediate shaft, directly where the bearing rides.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~0.jpeg)
This is the opposite gear of the one pictured in the previous post with the msall "hook"
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~1.jpeg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~2.jpeg)
I think both the shaft and both intermediate gears need replaced. I sent an email to golden rule tonight and will call Davco tomorrow morning.
If anyone has any leads on other places I should try for Cotta parts please let me know.
Also I was wrong....again haha! The shaft running from the fuel pump to the govern box was not locked up. After a more thorough look tonight I found the middle cylinder injector level is stuck or bound up.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~3.jpeg)
I believe this means I need to pull the injector. I guess I should just do all three. I really did not want to mess with the injectors until the skidder was moving around before calling out a mechanic.
Got some sand blasting to do this weekend and hopefully will find out the damages in the front axle.
see ya
Don't be afeared of those injectors. smiley_spider drop
My first DD (3-71) was seized, and all 3 injector plungers were stuck fully compressed. Pulled them apart, found the precision surfaces pitted from water in the fuel. Cooked them for a few hours in stoddard solvent, then reassembled, and after a quick rack set, the motor fired off without mishap.
Go slow and methodical, and you'll do fine.
Had same issue with my injectors. I removed them and used wd40 with a straw attachment and blew it threw the in/out ports while cycling the rack/pinions. It worked but may i just got lucky. The rack would slide with gravity when i turned injector from side to side when finished. Also the nosel/tip looked terrible and I was convinced it would not function, but I put it together and they all worked.
and you do not need to take the rack off to put injectors in a Detroit its tight but it can be done ;D
Removing the injectors took a ton of careful prying and wiggling. Mine where stuck in the head pretty good.
Thanks for the encouragement North River Energy. This weekend I did pull the troublesome injector.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~4.jpeg) Coxy thanks for the input, I removed the rack to see if it was rusted stuck or something, not knowing that the injector was plugged, however it did make removing it easier. Tantoy I tried a version of what you sugegsted. I soaked the injector in parts cleaner over the weekend in a little ultrasonic heated container and this afternoon its free.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~16.jpeg)
I didnt have time to install it. Needed a little R and R this afternoon.
Ive been working on the hydraulic lately and went to remove the discharge only to find that one of the cap screws was sheared off. Used a left handed drill bit and got it out. I removed the hydraulic pump to do that and figured I might aswell replace the shaft seal too as it looked like it had been leaking. Probably would have been okay but I already had it out.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~10.jpeg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~9.jpeg)
The holes for mounting the pump are very oversized.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~7.jpeg) I also found this rubber material was used around the bolt heads.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~6.jpeg)
Here is what Im thinking about with regards to the pump. Weld shut the existing holes for the pump and then drill new holes that are the correct size this way it eliminates any slop. The existing holes are about 1/2 to 5/8 large. The mounting bolts are 3/8 just to give you a perspective as to way Im spending this much time on it. Do I need the rubber grommets or not? Any and all feed back would be great on this issue.
This is one of the universal joint yokes for the hydraulic pump. Now its on the list for getting repaired.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~15.jpeg)
Finished tearing apart the Chelsea PTO as there was slop in the bearings.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~11.jpeg)
Interestingly the upper shaft bearings have removable taper roller bearings but the race is part of the casting. Not removable.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~12.jpeg)
The pic below is what I found under the engage/disengage control cover. Broken spring, perhaphs its meant to hold it in either position. I ll have to tract down a manual or break down.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~8.jpeg)
Cleared out a space just for the transfer case rebuild.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~14.jpeg) Called Davco for a price on the intermediate gears and spline shaft. The 2 gears would be about $500, but the shaft would be $1600!!! WOW!!! At this point I dont know what issues I will have with the front axle that still needs pulled and who knows what else might be broken. I think Im going to rebuild it with the existing gears and all new bearings and seals. I just cant see spending that much money without knowing more about the machine. Golden Rule Equipment just sold two cotta transfers, both working for $1800 a piece. Almost seems like that would be the better option but there out now.
Cleaned up the steering valve, removed the hydraulic 90s, redoped and installed with new hoses. Waiting for new clutch slave to get here then the steering valve can go back in .Looks easier to do it that way in my opinion.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~13.jpeg)
Removed 2 more 5 gallon pales of grease and twigs. This small areas between the engine and the radiator had about 1 bucket full in it alone. It unbelievable that there could be this much grease build up! Im sure many of you are not surprised, but to me thats ALOT of grease.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~5.jpeg)
Hope to hear back some input or thoughts on the hydraulic pump and cotta rebuild.
Guys if these posts are too long or filled with too many pics and it would be better to have a more condensed version or just ask quick questions please let me know. I feel like I'm just boasting about what I do on weekends but at the same time I know I enjoy reading others posts on there progress and seeing pics.
Thanks everyone
I ve been following your thread with very much interest and I think you're moving along pretty good.
Unfortunately as a non Detroit person I don't have much to say here, but there is no such thing about too many pictures. ;D
Great work!! It's all very interesting and very helpful to the rest of us since we all tend to run into similar issues with these old girls, regardless of brand. And you're not bragging at all...you have a very polite appreciative online demeanor. Keep up the good work.
That may not be the original pump,and the larger holes might be a means of affecting shaft alignment or to account for a non-standard bolt pattern.
This thing looks like they ran it as far into the ground as could be done and still find the machine.
Congratulations on working to resurrect this old girl. ;D 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) :snowball:
As far as the "engage/disengage control cover " is that a spring and ball detent we are looking at?
As for the expensive gears/shaft, I had to deal with the same struggle. My machine had also been driven into the ground and then some more. I had to restore my machine knowing that it was not going to make me much or any money. Putting 2200.00 into a couple of gears would not have been an option for me. Again, if I needed the machine to make money than different story.
And yes we like the long picture filled replies!
Have u tried Nash in Colebrook NH? They always seem to have old tree farmers around all the way from good ones to parts machines.
Yes, please keep the pictures coming. We have 2 old C 4 s here and I always enjoy seeing others.
Thanks everyone for posting. I will definitely keep the pics coming. Tonight however is a different story. No pics sorry, ran out of patience for today
Good news: got the master cylinder rebuilt and operating without leaks.
Bad news: After reinstalling the frozen injector I attempted to start it, ive been having issues with the starter solenoid coil contacts only engaging the Bendix but not spinning the rotor. This problem comes and goes too. After getting a few puffs out of the engine the starter started making a grinding noise while turning the engine. I pulled it off and found the casting that holds the end bushing for the shaft broken off.
After buying bearings this week for the transfer case and a few other things for the skidder I really didnt need this expense. I realize $250 in not the end of the world compared to what some of you spend on repairs. However Im working with a small budget as Im attempting to buy some land and want to prove this skidder.
Anyways found a used MT30 on ebay for $100 plus $50 shipping. Thoughts? Its an exact match. The starter shop I bought my parts from wants $279 with an exchange so more like $300 with tax so Im trying to find it else were plus there parts prices were on the high side.
Not sure if I need to pull the back cover off the engine and remove the broken piece or not. Just a bummer
Are you referring to the starter nose cone?
If so, and depending on the damage, you might be able to braze it back together?
Got photo?
Here's a pic, while looking at it again I found that the shaft is bent.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~18.jpeg)
That's disappointing.:(
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30352/V220nosecone1.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30352/V220nosecone2.jpg)
IH V220 partied too hard with the Ether Bunny. Or at least that's the theory. (Starter was hanging by the battery cable).
The local motor shop thought he could source a nosecone for $60+-, but I don't remember if that was new or used.
The engine condition was unknown, and one can almost always benefit from torch practice...
NRE, ur brazing/welding repair looks real nice. Ur right a little more torch time doesn't hurt anyone. I'm kinda leaning towards the used one on eBay. I should be able to straighten the shaft and then spin in the lathe to see if it's close to being balanced. But first I have to find the piece or pieces that broke off.
What do you guys think? Should I remove the rear plate on the engine and find the peices so it doesn't cause problems later or just leave it?
Hats off to You CRAZY - You have the patience, and perseverance ....... looking forward to seeing You achieve this quest -
Thanks C4S. I figured I would be hard pressed to make it any worse.
I'd rather spend the time to find the broken chunk now, with the tractor in the shop, rather than some part of the clutch/flywheel finding it for you in the depths of a mud hole.
This assuming you know the starter snout was there prior to this recent setback...
Well Ive got more pictures from today's findings.
Pulled the transmission
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~21.jpeg)
I believe its a Warner T98 transmission. I need to go back and read GA Jones earlier post on the details of each major part.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~25.jpeg)
Removed the broken starter nose pieces
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~19.jpeg)
Output shaft bearing was bad, so I put it on the bench, drained the oil and pulled the top cover plate with shifter lever.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~22.jpeg) All the gears look real good, no chips or excessive wear marks.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~23.jpeg)
Heres the clutch
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~20.jpeg)
I believe this is called the throw out bearing. Notice the outer edge seems raised on the bearing surface facing the clutch?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~24.jpeg)
I made a gasket template for the top cover out of some clear plastic material I received when I redid my counter tops. I thought it worked well.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~34.jpeg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~35.jpeg)
More bad news.....
I knew the front axle input bearings were shoot......just not this bad
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~26.jpeg) :o
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~28.jpeg)
Close up of the drive gear
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~29.jpeg)
This is the front view with the pinion gear assembly removed. Part of the casting seems to have busted off or something is missing?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~27.jpeg)
What left of the Timken bearing and seal.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~30.jpeg)
From what I can tell there should have been a front and rear bearing(excluding the pinion bearing) on this shaft. That tamper piece before the spline was the only bearing part attached to the shaft. This shows the two Timken bearing races
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~33.jpeg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~31.jpeg)
Here is a close up of the pinion gear. The picture doesnt show the jagged, chipped, and smashed gear like I thought.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~32.jpeg)
With the front axle full of oil and metal chips I believe I need to do a complete tear down, several flushes, and thorough rebuild with aftermarket parts from CJs. I believe thats the name of the place GA Jones and others use for their axle parts. Its a bummer but its what Ive got. Plus its kinda exciting getting to tear down something you never done. Only draw back....cost of parts :D
Napa sold me some tan fiber gasket material 1/64 thick for my gasket on the Cotta. Will that material and thickness work for the transmission cover plate gasket?
Is there anything I should check on the clutch while I have it exposed?
Where can I find a rebuild manual and parts breakdown on the PB52 axles? A google search doesn't come up with much. Also are these timken (rockwell-standard) axles or just rockwell? I have a MOTORS truck repair manual from 1963 which has some info on the t98 warner transmission and detroit 3-53 but for axles it does not list the PR52.
Thanks again to everyone who has been responding to this thread. Not many folks understand why I bought this skidder and why Im putting all this effort into it, so it neat to come here, share and hopefully contribute someday to others who feel the way I do about forestry and the equipment in this industry.
Pull the cover plate and the clutch while you there. If its a metallic disk oil wont hurt it too bad as far as slippage/chatter. That is the same t98 that's in my 20, except mine has a forward/reverse box in front of it. I would definitely de grease clean that bellhouing and replace the input seal on the t98. I may still have the seal # if i can find it tomorrow.
I don't have much knowledge on the 52's as I didn't get into mine.
"Thanks again to everyone who has been responding to this thread. Not many folks understand why I bought this skidder and why Im putting all this effort into it, so it neat to come here, share and hopefully contribute someday to others who feel the way I do about forestry and the equipment in this industry."
I get the same questions :D
Crown and pinion looks toasted and will need to replaced if you want to depend on it. You should pull the differential out and check the housing where the small roller bearing goes as when they are left that long the housing is usually cracked. There are two tapered bearings on the pinion and inside a roller bearing on the pinion. Check the ratio and you can usually get the gear set at a truck parts place. I would suspect that there are five teeth on the pinion and thirty nine on the crown.
You can get new parts from golden rule for the rears he stocks a lot of the stuff for pr52. As far as gaskets go I personally don't use them. Some stuff used a gasket like a shim but usually you can recognize those situations the transfer case is not one of those situations . Rtv silicone or the newer flexible gasket maker from CAT. Permatex probably makes a version of it now.Gaskets are becoming a thing of the past. A lot of the new stuff comes without gaskets. Sealants only. You could call aftermarket parts INC direct for the parts also. Your probably better off calling John at golden rule and buy a used center section for the front one. The housing is broke. There is a pilot bearing that is supposed to be on the end of the pinion shaft. If it exploded then it probably cracked the housing inside where it rides.If the planetary section looks as bad as that center section then you may just want to buy a complete used axle from him he has a couple down there.
Geezum she was rode hard.
Tantoy, good advice on replacing the front bearing and seal on T98. A friend stopped by tonight and looked over the T98, he has experience with rebuilding muncie and warner transmissions for cars. He said they same thing and also suggested replacing the needle bearings by the gears closest to the input. This week I will soak, degrease/clean everything before tear down.
Bushmechanic, I looked at pulling the diff out but dont think there is enough room so for now im planning on removing the entire axle, then tearing it down.
GA Jones, When I tore the transfer case apart I found that it was put back together using a blue sealant. It was everywhere inside the case I figured a gasket would be better but if you apply the sealant correctly it will probably work. The sealant would make for a speedier repair.
Also in an earlier post this year you mentioned CJ logging for purchasing the spider plate on planitaries I assume they sell other parts for the PR52 aftermarket or should I stick with golden rule?
Fedex says the used starter from Alabama will be here on Tuesday. Hopefully I can get 3-53 fired up and idling.
Thanks guys for your input!!
Tried to take advantage of the great weather we are having so I worked on the skidder a bit more.
Pulled the clutch off for inspection
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~36.jpeg)
Pressure plate surface
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~37.jpeg)
Close up of the clutch pads or shoes. To my beginner eyes the shoes do not look bad at all. Tomorrow the clucth will do a little soaking in some cleaner than a more detailed inspection
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~38.jpeg)
These are the only numbers on the clutch, any idea as to what manufacture?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~39.jpeg)
Clutch surface on the flywheel, no cracks or damage
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~40.jpeg)
Todays casualty...Lossened all the lug nuts on the front tires in preparation for pulling the axle. This ¾" extension got twisted while using a 5" cheater bar. Thats no exgageration, 3 out of 14 nuts wouldnt nudge. I was thinking about heating them up with the torch and then backing them off? Thoughts????
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~41.jpeg)
After yesterdays findings on the front axle I went over the rear. This pillow block bearing was the only thing out. The axle seems tight, no play in input bearing. I couldnt remove the drain plug to assess what condition the oil is in. That should also shed light onto the conditions of the rear axle internals.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~43.jpeg)
I figure it a good time to replace the center pins and am looking for advice.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~44.jpeg)
More hack work done on the bottom pin bracket. That bottom bracket has been welded back on byt the looks of it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~42.jpeg)
So you have seen what my existing center pins look like and here is a pic of the pin in the front blade. A grease able style with nut, not a welded plate.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~45.jpeg)
GA Jones I know you mentioned that all the pins and bearings are the same throughout the entire machine. Where can I get the pins you have on your machine? Do any of you make your own pins? I have access to a machine shop, lathe, mill and so forth.
I went to drain the oil in the front axle, which is the one thats all screwed up. Noticed first that the plug was in finger tight, and seemed to have been removed recently. My guess is someone, alot smarter than myself, looked at it before walking away. Anyways, I reomved the plug and nothing came out. I knew there was oil in the diff from yesterday. Stuck my finger up there and it was packed full of metal, chips, rollers. It should be interesting what I find in the axle.
De glaze the flywheel and pressure plate with 100grit paper. De-grease the disk. Its metallic so the oil should not hurt it (please chime in if anyone disagrees)
When you take the bell housing off the t98 make sure your gasket covers the lower shaft end. I put mine together only to find out it was leaking so I had to remove transmission and put new gasket between trans and bell housing.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21468/PA290029.JPG)
Thoughts ?? .. get some Blue Creeper... saves on the tools.. and not seen a 5" cheater bar twist an extension, so figure it was 5' instead. ;)
Sometimes they mix left hand and right hand wheel studs on these. Sealant used correctly is the way to go. Davco is the only place for pins over the counter. CJ doesn't stock anything for the rears. Stick with golden rule and Davco
If I was doing this restore I'd replace the pressure plate, clutch disc, pilot and throw out bearings and have the flywheel resurfaced. Now's the time to do it.
you can use heat on those wheel nuts that works fine but i got tired of using long pipes so i bought myself a 1" impact pistol as i already had a big air compressor. its surely alot easier and saver
Quote from: beenthere on October 04, 2015, 11:46:10 PM
.. and not seen a 5" cheater bar twist an extension, so figure it was 5' instead. ;)
Maybe he's a lot stronger than you and me put together? ;)
Great project!
I am really enjoying this thread!
I love to see old iron brought back to life.
I am going to agree with Corley5. If I had this much time and effort invested I'd replace the clutch pressure plate and throwout bearing.
Jon
Thanks for all the replies guys. Ive had alot going on at work and at home recently so progress and updates might be slow for awhile.
I took you guys advice on the clutch, rebuilt pressure plate, new clutch plates and springs, new pilot bearing, and flywheel resurfaced for $351 from a local clutch shop. I intend on replacing the throw out bearing as well once its off.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~47.jpeg)
Since the flywheel was off I decided to replace rear engine shaft seal. 39935 CR off ebay shipped to me for $20
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~48.jpeg)
My used starter came in ith the solenoid coil busted up from shipping. The seller shipped this heavy thing in a light weight box! Im surprised it made it here without falling through the box probably all those little pieces of Styrofoam helped with that! Thats what I get for buying used/off ebay. Bought a new solenoid from napa for $30 so total is $180 but its a working starter now.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~50.jpeg)
The center pins came in from Davco, but as it turns out my center pins had been previously modified.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~49.jpeg) Thanks to GA Jones for the idea of machining some bushings to adapt the new pins onto the skidder. Indeed the man knows his C4s
Removed the axle from the front of the skidder.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~52.jpeg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~51.jpeg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~53.jpeg)
This is the first axle Ive torn apart. With that said I found you must remove the spider plate off of the planateries,
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~57.jpeg) then pull on the center gear which is attached to the axle shaft, until it is removed from the differential housing.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~55.jpeg) Once that's completed I removed the differential assembly successfully. Here is all the crud left in the axle.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~54.jpeg)
So far it doesnt look as bad as I suspected, but its far from acceptable. This is where the pinion bearing rests.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~56.jpeg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~58.jpeg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~60.jpeg)
Ive been searching PR52 issues on the forum and learning as much as I can from previous posts. I plan on flushing everything, installing new bearings and repairing/replacing the differential pieces.
Work on the Cotta will start back up again. I checked measurements of the shafts compared to the ID of the new bearings. Two of the shafts are almost .020 out. Im going to tig on new metal then turn down in the lathe. My splines on the output shaft are unbelievable. So in an effort to repair those Im tig welding filler material on to the sides of the splines then machining down again in the mill. I realize this is alot of work but I can not afford the price of parts plus putting it all back together like this would only be a waste of money and time in my opinion. Almost all the yokes have deep wear groves from the seals or from when the bearings went out. Those will also need fill welded back in and machined down to size. Then there are the universals, many of which have rusted up needle bearings and pitted shafts.
While I enjoy working on it and learning new things, I cant help but remember why I bought it in the first place.......to log. Which hasnt been happening. My patience has been wearing a little thin this week so I took a break from it all, hopefully this weekend Im feeling it as the weather looks ok. Right now is an awesome time to be out there in the woods....skidding ;D perfect temp and the tree look amazing. Next time I post I will be more cheerfull. At this ponit with almost everything torn out of her, she might not have any more surprises!!
As always any input and advice is always welcome fellas!!
That center section on the axle is shot. Cheaper to get a good known used.planitaries look good! Did u call shaefers? You can get speedy sleeves for the worn shaft seal surfaces.
Hey Gerald, I called Sheafers and they wanted to know the gear tooth count which I didnt have at the time. I'll get a count tonight and call them tomorrow. Those PR52 seem kinda odd to find on craigslist, but it is heavy equipment. I aggree its a more solid choice to get something used and know to be good.
The planitarie gear setup, (shaft gear to sun gears to outer ring gear) is that specifically for low speed high torque? Most axles arent built this way right?
Im just going to tig weld the shafts instead of buying more parts. Just my time in labor which should be cheaper.
Running out of room in my shop to keep this stuff out of any rain
That solenoid was not damaged in shipping it just fell apart during it. That happened when it was took off, the main wire was on there and during removal it cracked the housing then fell apart on it's way to you. Ahh don't fret you will have her up and running in no time. The ratio should be stamped on the pinion end by the nut.
Yes the ratio is on the end of the pinion gear. Yoke side.
As far as planetary most all equipment uses it. Lots of different designs. Deere is internal next to the ring and pinion. Zf is to. eaton centrex Rockwell meritor are outboard.
Called golden rule and schaffers. Schaffers has one thats used but has been gone though for 1,100 and a rebuilt one for 1,600. Plus about $200 freight since I wont be driving to the tip of Illinois anytime soon.
Golden rule might have one out back in an axle but they werent sure. Typically asking 1,200 for a good used diff assembly.
I would still need to pull and replace the bearings and seals in the axle.
I might try searching some scrap/junk yards. Its not a bad price being that mine is destroyed however I cant justify spending that much right now.
I know of a guy local that has a few planetarys for the pr52. I bought a spare just in case I break one ,about a month ago. No center sections though.
if you lived closer to me I have a set of rears with every thing but tires and rims ready to bolt in and go your doing a good job :)
Sorry guys Ive been tied up in this land deal, work, school and life haha!! Well my land deal has fallen threw so it looks like I have money freed to spend on this old beast again. Ive been wrapped up repairing chainsaws and trying to get firewood around for winter that not much has been done to the skidder. Ive done alot of looking and calling on the PR52 diff, schaefers in Illlinios still seems to have the best deal, $1100 used ready to go 10 bolt.
Has anyone dealt with Schaefers Enterprises of Southern Illinois? I wish I could inspect this diff before buying. $1100 is a good chunk of change for me
I finished tearing down the transmission. Im glad I tore it down, the lower shaft has some bad wear along with input and output bearings being shoot. I really could use a manual or service break down of this transmission. Doing searches on ebay and google have yielded alot results for rebuild kits ranging from $140-$220 however most seem to be for the more popular Jeep style. Anyone who has rebuilt these have a part number or tip on where to get the correct kit. I have the numbers for one seal and both ball bearings but there are alot of various needles for the bearings and shims.
I would like to tear the PR52 down the rest of the way and move inside before it gets colder. Does anyone have a parts break down or manual for these axles? I would like to see how the seals go together before attempting to remove them.
Input on both the axle and transmission would be great.
Just a few pics of the tear down of the transmission.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~61.jpeg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~62.jpeg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~63.jpeg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~64.jpeg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~65.jpeg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~66.jpeg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~67.jpeg)
Not much to offer , but glad your still at it!
Keep the faith crazy4saws...your doing well...I'm in the same boat. My 1966 T9 tranny is completely torn down...I have a few parts to order hopefully through gearwizard. I also would like a manual for my T9 but can't find one. My timberjack manual though has a breakdown of your T98...if you can get one cheap. I also just pulled my crankshaft from the block of my 353 getting ready to dunk it and start the rebuild...my shop is clogged with parts everywhere...just hope I can get everything back together...geezum! I don't have some of the specialty tools the manual references. Not sure but I may need to rely on a diesel shop for some help. It's all good though. Hang in there.
Thanks for the responses Tantoy and Sandersen.
Sandersen, do you have a thread started for your project?
Tantoy, I take it your T98 was in good condition when you restored your skidder?
Im not giving up on this old beast. And now that the funds are freed up again things can start happening. Novak.com seems to have alot of knowledge on the T98-148 K2 warner, but they are more focused on the Jeep style. I sent them an email. Their kit while expensive seems the most complete.
Davco can piece me together parts for it but I have no way of knowledge exactly how many needle bearings I need and what size. To me the kit seems like the better option. Ebay has rebuild kits but Im not confident that I will be purchasing the correct version. It seems the T98 falls into three categories, Ford, International, and Jeep and from what Ive seen all 3 have small but noticeable differences. Im sure others out there know more about these things so if Im wrong please speak up as I want to know.
I have some calls in to a few forestry salvage yards for my PR52 diff assembly. Still looking for a breakdown of that axle if anyone has one. Goggle search only yields results directing me to here, the foresry forum, when searching for PR52 axle info.
Thanks guy, hopefully this week Ill get some Argon so I can weld on the cotta transfer shafts and get rolling on that as well. Ill post some pics, see ya
I took the cover off my t98 and it looked pretty good so i just sealed it back up and speady sealed the output. I never did find any manuals on the pr52 or t98 when i was working on mine.
I understand what you mean Tantoy. I wish mine hadn't had play in the bearings but it's good learning experience.
Anyone dealt with superior parts and sales located in the Michigan UP? Marenisco Michigan 49947. It looks like they have a PR 52 and the price is reasonable. I'll post pics of the axle
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~68.jpeg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~69.jpeg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~70.jpeg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~71.jpeg)
are you shur you don't want to go on a road trip to my house and get these axle housings they are complete ready to bolt in ;D :)
To be honest Coxy I figured you were only joking and heck maybe you still are! I'm indeed interested in your offer. I feel it's only right to pay you for what I take though. I know I can rent a truck for a day with unlimited miles for $70, and than whatever gas is. It's more than likely a 12 hour drive one way but it would be worth it! Let me know and I'll PM u!
Does any one know why the winch control on my C6 won't push down to release position unless we bleed the lines then soon as you winch the cable in it won't go down again . As long as you don't winch in it works . Got me baffled
Here are few pics I got of the diff assembly in Michigan. I think it looks good via the pictures. They said the bearings and seals are all good. Wish I had the money, I would simply buy the entire axle. but $2200 is too much. Ill stick with $900.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~72.jpeg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~73.jpeg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~74.jpeg)
$900 is a good price for that complete 3rd member, I doubt that you would be able to buy just the crown and pinion for that price. Make sure it came out of a skidder so that you would have the non-spin in the center as opposed to a truck one with just the spyder gears. 5/39 is a common ratio as was used in a lot of Tree Farmers, Timberjacks, Garrets and more.
Been busy cutting wood and doing side jobs that I havent had much free time for the skidder.
Moved the axle inside for repairs this winter.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~67.jpg)
Received the new 5-36 center from Michigan. Looks good, everything seems tight. the on the left is the damaged center.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~68.jpg)
Removed the planetary assembly from the right side.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~66.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~65.jpg)
The bearing races have moisture/rust pittings so Ill be replacing all of those.
Just a few pics of the axle shaft and planetary hub.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~64.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~63.jpg)
Here is planetary housing. The second picture shows a side view of where the seal rides. From previous reading I thought this axle had a wet bath seal not a typical rubber lip seal??? Anyways back to the second pic, you can see two small ridges on the higher center circle. Is this normal or is this caused by the seal rubbing on the housing due to normal wear and tear?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~61.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~62.jpg)
I contacted axle tech, the company that took over rockwell planetary division. Ive sent them various numbers Ive found all over the axle and plenty of pictures. According to them they cant figure out what axle it is or what manual I should use as a reference to rebuild this thing. Seems strange to me.
I believe the "craddle" on a skidder is in the front and allows the axle to pivot back and fort? Over the weekend I check them since the axle isnt on. They both have play so I guess thats next. Are these pins the same as the center pins?
Coxy has offered me a pair of 5-30 PR67 off one of his older skiddesr for a bargain. been kicking around the idea of putting a 67 on the back and leave a 52 in the front, like GA Jones setup. Gonna try and make it out to New York within a month to get them.
Ive spent a good amount of time tring to find a manual for this C4B, but the pickings are slim. I read that Franklin Factory closed in 2008, did their retail store in North Carolina close aswell? Places like Davco do not seem too keen on selling a manual at this point.
Hope you all enjoy a fantastic Thanksgiving with your families.
Chase
Quote from: Frenchy7527 on November 04, 2015, 01:22:22 PM
Does any one know why the winch control on my C6 won't push down to release position unless we bleed the lines then soon as you winch the cable in it won't go down again . As long as you don't winch in it works . Got me baffled
I don't wish to derail this thread subject but thought I'd answer this question that was asked.
Frenchy...It sounds like the piston retaining ring fell out on the brake release cylinder side of the winch control. When this happens the brass piston comes part way out of the bore and the cylinder overfills. When the pressure is reapplied with the control handle the piston cocks in the bore instead sliding in. When you bled the fluid off this allowed the piston to re-enter the bore far enough to slide again. To fix it you will have to drain the control and and remove the brake side cylinder assembly. The repair procedure may be a simple as re-installing the snap ring.
Did you get the new seal yet? You will see it rides in the groove. There really isn't much a manual can tell you that somebody here can't.its a fairly easy system. How about pics of the spider and bronze pins and planet gears
I havent ordered any parts yet for the axle. Im going to call a few places and get some quotes.
Heres some pictures of the spider plate, pins, and gears.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~72.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~73.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~74.jpg)
Its good to know that the seal sits in that grove. Should only need to order a both bearings on each side and new seal.
I searched the forum for PR52 info. Most of the time its related to repairs on the pins and spider plate, not actual info on the planetary itself such as things to check or look for, to proper assembly and so forth. Thats why I figured it would help to have the manual.
Im still not sure what version of the warner T98 I have. There are 3 styles, ford trucks, IH and Jeep. There are minor differences between the 3. My guess is its the ford truck version. Golden rule, davco, and scheaffers said they couldnt help with a rebuild kit.
This is the rear PR52 oil drain plug, or whats left of it. The square head was badly mauled so I attempted to use an easy out which left me with this larger hole as it pulled itself through the plug instead of turning it out. I was able to drain the oil out thru the hole and it looks fairly clean.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~71.jpg)
this bearing assembly that supports the rear drive shaft needed its bearings replaced.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~43.jpeg)
Buying the new bearing insert was around$200 so..
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~75.jpeg)
found this bearing assembly at work with the same ID as the old bearing but the mounting holes were to close and the height was 1/4 lower. So I made this adapted plate and milled out the sides on the bolt holes. Its primitive but should do fine.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~70.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~69.jpg)
Im going to post a few videos of the play in the cradle, the planetary ring gear(or crown gear) and the movement in the rear axle so I can get the expert advice on whether or not I should worry about it.
Anyone on here have experience with welding on hardened shafts? My plan was to weld on a few of my transfer case shafts as the new bearings simply slide on by hand or are lose fit. I was told this week by a co worker that welding on a hardened shaft will not work. I dont see why it wouldnt but want to see what you all think. Yes speedy sleeves would work but I think this will result in a longer lasting repair, pus save me some money.
As always looking for input from you guys.
Thanks
https://youtu.be/6UAzb9dqjX4
https://youtu.be/3zOmL_ogSug
https://youtu.be/t1lPhejrmyY
It might be an illusion (second video), but it looks like the pinion bearing has way too much clearance.
As to the shaft wear, do you have anyone local that does spray welding? There may also be a 'liquid metal' on the market that you could cold cure, and then turn to size.
(Have heard of, but not used products from this company)
http://www.belzona.com/en/products/purpose/metal-repair.aspx (http://www.belzona.com/en/products/purpose/metal-repair.aspx)
jmop I would not worry about that little play in the first video second video looks like the same play I have is it right trobly not ;D 3rd video I have no clue don't own a skidder with front end pivet :)
The play in the first video is normal for that age. The second video is ok too. Don't forget you have many more moving parts than in a standard axle. The cradle should be rebushed.. There is a bearing just like your center section only larger. If the play gets much worse it wil bend the front driveshaft.....
How much play do the sun gears have on the bronze pins? If it's minimal and they weren't leaking oil through the spider then there ok.
The transmission is from an early 60s ford truck..
E-bay has the rebuild kit and input shaft and cluster gear for the transmission
Heres a link for the play in the bronze pins or sun gears. I figured it was acceptable but let me know what u guys think.
https://youtu.be/WC8dSXw1ydI
Hey Gerald, after you said the T98 was the ford version I just purchased the rebuild kit thru Novak. It's pricier but it also looks like it has all the parts included that some of the kits don't have. I appreciate the input from everyone.
NRE- that u link u posted is interesting. I'm not ruling that out yet either. I watched video demonstration on utube and it seems very easy and straight forward. Also read more into shaft repair in a machinist forum. The pros to using the belzona seem high. I like the fact that heat treatment is done once cured.
Anyone else every tried this stuff? More or less an epocixy liquid metal for lack of a better term.
Btw Gerald I see your point on repairing the cradle bushing, good thoughts.
Tomorrow I'm removing the hub and seal assembly. I'm only doing one side at a time just in case. Once this side is done I'll pull apart the other side.
Any opinions on switching out the PR52 to PR 67 on the rear? Pros might be a stronger rear end that won't breakdown due to over loading??? Cons could be parts avaiblity?
Thanks guys
I just did wheel bearings and seals all the way around my timberjack. everything was available locally from truck parts stores, but expensive. ( bearings $95 and $129, races $75 and $95) I typed the Timken numbers into ebay, found everything I needed except seals. the most I paid for anything off ebay was $65. my brgs were 48190 (hardest one to get), 52400, races:48120, 52618. seals were B370063BG ($55). good luck
Good to see the progress is still coming. I noticed you said your new 5/36 rear end but that should be 5/39, a misprint on your part I hope. If you have a 5/36 then that's 7.2 ratio and your 5/39 is 7.8 ratio so what I'm getting at is that is two completely odd diff's. Mix those up and for sure one will be toast in no time. That pic of your hub shows where the seal rides is badly worn you will need to fill that in and re-machine it, I'm sure tantoy had a good idea on how to do it cheap with a bit of bronze and ingenuity.
as for welding on hardened shafts. do the bearings run directly on the shaft, or do they have an inner race that slides onto it? if they have a race, i like to grind the shaft down a little bit, then put a layer of brass on it (braze it). if the bearing runs right on the shaft, then i'll grind the shaft down, and put a layer of sellite on with o/a, then grind to size with a tool post grinder.
i find the o/a welding doesn't hurt the temper in the shaft as bad, and if it does, it doesn't make a brittle spot at the edge of the weld like arc welding.
#1 Roadmonkey: I aggree with you on purchasing parts off ebay. Your seals are different from mine. The bearings with race range about $35 to $55 timken brand each and the axle seal is under $10 each both with free shipping. Im going to try a few local bearing houses but doubt they will beat the price.
#2 Bushmachanic: you are correct my center sections are 5/39 ratio, the ones I hope to pick up from Coxy are 5/30 ratio. My plan is to put a 5/39 center in one of them and install on the rear. So Ill have PR67 in the back and PR52 in the front both with 5/39 ratio. I spoke with Tantoy about the repairs to the spindle sleeve where the seal rides. While JB would work Im going to weld them up and turn them down. Got a price from Davco on the spindle seal, only $28 which isnt bad.
#theonlybull: thanks for your input, yes some of the areas that need built up do have bearings riding on them, others have a seal. I hadnt thought about removing additional material before building up. Is the sellite you mentioned like belzona NRE spoke of? for lack of a better term its epoxy applied to the shaft than machined down to proper spec, no heat treatment is needed?
Made some progress over the Christmas weekend but could use some input
These two pictures show the left and right hub on my axle. Look closely you will notice the 1st has a smaller diameter center hole than the 2nd. The hubs are not the same. I believe the 2nd is the correct hub as it has a seal pressed into center hole to ride on axle shaft. The 1st hub could be machined to the same diameter and shoulder depth to access the axle seal. Thoughts???
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~79.jpeg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~83.jpeg)
After cleaning both hubs I noticed that 1/4 of the splines on each hub had deep rust pitting. Maybe from water getting into the planetary system and sitting for 10 years? Should both hubs be replaced or use them as they are? No other parts in the planetary group show these signs.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~82.jpeg)
Removed the cradle and pins. Having never worked on heavy equipment like this the pins look to be in usable shape. The play seems to be coming from the bushings
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~76.jpeg)
Front pin and bushing
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~81.jpeg)
Rear pin and bushing
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~78.jpeg)
Crack line on self aligning bushing? both bushings have this crack but its not a straight line, more jagged and offset, is this normal for the self aligning bushings or is it damaged?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~80.jpeg)
Crude washers/shims used on the front and back pins. Most post on FF mention brass shims not welded up steel plates.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~77.jpeg)
Removed the 3-53 yesterday so the front cradle pin could be removed. Could have removed the oil drain pan instead but since Im this far a complete tear down, painting and reassemble makes sense.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~84.jpeg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~85.jpeg)
Interesting read , your going the whole way and my hats off to you . A fellow sure can learn alot tearing a peace of equipment down and puting it back togather 8)
looks like that one hub was sitting on a parts rear end out side JMOP I would run that hub the way it is iv ran worse :)
The crack lines are normal. A brand new one will be cracked also.
Those spindles will be fine. There 500 apiece if you want to replace them.
I just read where this thread is up to. The pr52 is covered in old timberjack parts and workshop manuals.
Do you still want information on them? I won't have access to them until middle of January.
Thanks for the replies. I'll re use the spindles as you guy suggested. I figured I could tear down the other axle and build one good axle if needed but I'll rebuild this one instead.
Thanks Neilo for the offer. I should be receiving the service manual I bought off eBay for the Rockwell planetaries this week. If for some reason it doesn't cover what I need to know I'll send you a PM.
What's everyone's thoughts on machining the hub to accept the axle seal?
I would not worry about it put it together and run it :)
Without that seal, Seems to me if the machine was on a side hill that gear oil would transfer from the center (differential), thru the spindle and into the planetary. Not going to hurt anything but may lower the differential oil over time?
Would it be possible to run the pr52 spindle with all the rest of the pr67 stuff, or is totally different.
if it runs one way it should run back to level it back out my pr75s don't have a seal just a rubber oring on the spindle to keep it from leaking out where it bolts together
I just found this site. Read the first 5 pages & jumped up 2 here(finally got below zero temps here in NW Wis so got 2 freeze some red clay down 2 do a little logging so not enough time right now 2 read all 11 of them yet)but it's good 2 c a Tree Farmer being brought back up & working. I have 3 Tree Farmers (4,5 & 7) & 3 sons in there 20's. I believe there getting good experience by keeping them machines productive. It helps when my Bride got me a 1 1/2 inch wrench 4 a Christmas present also. Looks like ur doing real good at fixing it back up. I get more time I'll try 2 check it all out.
The new spindles have the seal deleted. So I'm guessing it's no big deal. (I've changed 2). The pr67 stuff is way harder to get than the 52. Also the axles are different
Been making small progress on the c4B. Traveling A lot lately for work so not much free time.
Made a trip out to New York awhile ago and picked up 2 PR67 from forestry member Coxy along with some spare T98 transmissions parts. An excellent trip! I've got all the axle torn down in the shop. Putting new pinion shaft seals on the centers and cleaning everything up for re assembly. The t98 is also close to reassembly.
I was curious what method and type of paint you guys suggest for repainting the skidder. Is it better to rebuild everything and paint it when it's al together or paint the pieces individually then assemble?
What type of paint would you recommend?
For prep work im either wire wheeling the surfaces or sandblasting them.
Thanks everyone
Very cool that coxy was able to help. Your machine is yellow right (not the green)?? I did the pressure wash thing with greaser. No sandblast. Little wire wheel. Yellow is hard to get to cover IF they tint the paint in the store. I found that having the paint mixed at the factory made huge difference. Also consider having the primer tinted yellow.
Making progress the past few weeks while at home. The t98 is completely rebuilt(actually I rebuilt it 3 seperate times) first time I had the wrong input shaft installed, once that was exchanged and assemblied I realized the case I was using had the t18 style mounting holes instead of the t98(butterfly pattern mounting holes). Third time I got it right! I had original tranny plus 3 others, picked the best parts from all 4. The input shaft I had to buy new from Davco. The original case had slop in the main bearing holes, about .004" I used loctite 680 to help retain the bearing so they won't spin.
There seems to be variations to the t98/t18 mounting pattern, all 4 of the ones I have are different, no to mention the different variations in jnout shafts. The picture quality isn't great, sorry.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~75.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1464826080)
Here are the input shafts, left to right, old shaft, new shaft, used shaft(ford truck style which wasn't correct)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~76.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1464826084)
Welded in the groves on the planetary spindles where the seal rides. Next I'll turn it down to the proper size
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/image~77.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1464826091)
Building an engine stand for 3-53 so I can run it and clean it up.
Progress is slow but I want to repair it right instead of fast. Doesn't help that I'm back on the road for the next few weeks, working in Missouri but without this job I wouldn't have that skidder!
I was wondering if you where still alive :D :D :D :D :D
Sure am Coxy, Still kicking and screaming! I didn't get pictures but I've got the mounting plates cut off those PR67s and reenfornment stringers ran along the axles. Just need to weld the plate back on and it will be ready to bolt on
When you get this done you can go into business manufacturing skidders. ;D
You might even come up with better ways to make one. ;D ;D ;D
Would really love to know how this project turned out.
Really disappointing how the op just dropped the thread :(
Pretty unimpressive.....Here's the progress of the project, not completed lol hoping to have more time in the near future as Ive switched contractors to travel less.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34348/3443EFD1-33D4-40AA-A9FD-CB71527C5A74.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1631241770)
good to see you back smiley_thumbsup