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Author Topic: please help...hire orester or not?  (Read 8478 times)

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2021, 09:53:18 PM »
There is a market for tap hole maple.
The logger needs to find the right buyer.
 If the logger does not know there is a market for tapped  maple that is not good, of course he could be right in that you have tap stains in former veneer logs.  
He says he can sell them.... they just aren't worth as much.  He says they will be stained and the bottom log will be worth less.

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2021, 10:07:22 PM »
He said the woods will be ready to cut again in 15 years.
He also said a hardwood grows approx 1" in circumference per year.
That means if he cuts everything above 18", the trees that he leaves today will be will be 72" circumference (22" diameter in 15 years).
Does 22" seem like right size to cut again?

Offline Clark

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2021, 10:19:32 PM »
The logger says you have ~35K bdft of timber he would cut. How will you know that is what he cuts? Who is accounting for the timber that is cut? If you have no way of figuring that out you have two options: 1) Trust the logger with your familys 25-50 years of growing trees or 2) hire someone who can keep track of the cut trees and make sure you get paid.

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2021, 10:22:29 PM »
Would you sell your families prized jewels to first guy that came along with cash or would you seek out someone skilled in appraising jewels to determine their value first? Once their value is established you can access weather the offer is a "good deal" or not.
He's not exactly the first guy to come along.  He's logged for several farmers I know going back to 1992 and nobody has anything bad to say so far.  One of my neighbors hired a forester and put the job out for tender and this Logger won the tender.

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2021, 10:24:38 PM »
The logger says you have ~35K bdft of timber he would cut. How will you know that is what he cuts? Who is accounting for the timber that is cut?
Yep my thoughts exactly.  That's why I asked him today to mark the trees he wants.  Then we know where we stand.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2021, 11:32:38 PM »
One issue with continual diameter limit cuts is that it harvests the fastest growers and leaves behind the slowest.  


Say youre on a 15" DLC and there are two white oaks at 13.5 inch that get left behind.  At the next DLC one has hit 16 and the other is at 14.  The fast growing healthy tree is harvested prematurely.  The stand retains the tree that grows very slow and probably will die and rot before it hits 20" dbh.   Three consecutive DLC's and youve got a stand full of stalled trees that shoulda been culled.  Size does not correlate to overall health. 
Isaiah 63:10

Offline chevytaHOE5674

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2021, 12:02:46 AM »
Mike is exactly right cutting by diameter is terrible flawed. Just because a tree is over xxx diameter doesn't mean its mature or that it is done growing. Some of those trees have superior genetics that allowed them to grow bigger and faster than the others. Those are also the trees that I want producing seed for future generations. 

I'd rather see the stand marked down to a certain BA removing the worst trees first to reach your target. After a couple harvests the "worst " trees you are removing will be nice sawlogs.

Offline PoginyHill

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2021, 07:55:17 AM »
One issue with continual diameter limit cuts is that it harvests the fastest growers and leaves behind the slowest.  


Say youre on a 15" DLC and there are two white oaks at 13.5 inch that get left behind.  At the next DLC one has hit 16 and the other is at 14.  The fast growing healthy tree is harvested prematurely.  The stand retains the tree that grows very slow and probably will die and rot before it hits 20" dbh.   Three consecutive DLC's and youve got a stand full of stalled trees that shoulda been culled.  Size does not correlate to overall health.
Exactly. Tree diameter does not always correlate to age. A small diameter tree could be the same age as one twice its size. So many other factors are ignored when diameter is the only criterion. Akin to taking the best and leaving the rest. Will likely not result in a robust future for the stand.
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Offline JBlain

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2021, 08:09:37 AM »
I have 3 tree cookies to demonstrate the issue with managing to a diameter in mixed deciduous eastern forests.  

Our property is in central PA and first cut around 1812.  They left some of the poorer formed trees as it was remote at the time.  

1st tree is 10 in Chestnut oak 

2nd is 14in  black oak

3rd is 24in red oak

I ask which one is the oldest.  Most answer the 24in red oak.  The oldest is the 10 in chestnut oak.  It was 270 years old and passed over likely 5 or 6 times in the last 200+ years.   The black oak was 90 and you can see it doubled in size when I released it at 75 and the red oak was only 50 years old.  

Lots of variables and management goes a long way over the long term.  

Offline nativewolf

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2021, 09:26:14 AM »
All good points, diameter limit cut = high grading.  Just always.  The best genetics grow the fastest.  In fact, what you want the logger to do is to actually leave the youngest fastest growing trees with the best genetics or those of smaller diameters but with crown of leaves at the top of the canopy of the forest.  You want to remove all the junk first.  If a sugar bush why not leave the sugar maple along for tapping?  that should pay a good lease rate, no?  You want the leave trees to be roughly spaced apart and with a minimum of 3 open sides for the canopy to grow evenly without causing twist in the trunk.  The tree spacing should account for areas of decline in which case small clearcuts are not bad.  If you are removing merchantable trees the first thing to look for is whether or not there is regeneration.   @JBlain has a good data point, that chestnut oak that was 270 years old would never be cut by a logger but is shading the ground, you need that energy (sunlight) on the ground triggering germination and that 10" chestnut oak is never ever going to yield income so cut it and all the ones that look like that and the increase in light in the understory will trigger vigorous germination which should be managed over time to create a strong stand of young trees.  In other words, remove as much of the mid story canopy as you can.  That is best done during the harvest.  

I would not confuse satisfied farmers that sold assets with good long term management of the forest.  The reason why the eastern forest of the US are in such horrible shape is that generations of landowners have been selling the assets rather than generating income.  Asset sales and income generation are very different things and a good harvest generates income while have little or no impact on the asset value.  

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2021, 09:55:27 AM »
Excellent point about genetics.  It's the same way with a herd of cattle but for some reason I didn't relate that concept to trees.

This brings up another question for me......when walking into a forest for the first time, how does a Forester determine which trees of the same species is the faster growing ones?

Offline mike_belben

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2021, 10:34:43 AM »
in time you get an eye for it.  the more trees you cut and look at the more you can correlate outward appearance that gives away large growth rings..  thats what fast growth is.  fat rings.  i made a thread on it not too long ago for the only one i can eyeball correctly, white oak.  

moss, blown out tops, dark color, lots of failed and rotted off epicormic branches, poor form or bunched up spindly tops instead of big spread out brocolli tops.. and certain bark textures can give away the losers.  


like nativewolf basically said, a forest is a soil based growth media fueled by sun.  you weed your garden.  weed your woods too.  if you let a stranger come and pick all the fruits you dont have a garden anymore, do you?  its time to till the greens in and replant when there arent any more fruits on the way.  the cycle time is just a lot longer. but a rotten squash doesnt bring what a fresh soft one does at the market.  same for trees. mature, big, ripe, fresh and cosmetically appealing.  thats what all markets want whether fruit or timber.   dented cans half off and rotten fruit goes to the hogs.  well, junk trees go to the stove. 

it is probably not possible to find a logger who will treat your land better than you would, thats just not their job.  and you will have a very hard time finding an economical way to get someone else to harvest the firewood without just giving it to them at best.  i am sorta in this line of work.
Isaiah 63:10

Offline Wudman

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2021, 10:37:37 AM »
Look at what a diameter limit cut will do to your species distribution.  Install a few plots yourself.  A 1/10th acre circular plot has a radius of 37.24 feet.  Note the species of the "remove" trees above 18 inches diameter and the species of trees that are smaller than that threshold.  Over time, you will progress to the sub-dominant species in your woodlot.  To properly manage, you need a diameter and species distribution for you woodlot.  Remove trees need to come from across this spectrum......not just the cream of the crop.

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2021, 10:39:52 AM »
found the thread.  "selecting culls."   hopefully it gets some more action because id like to learn how to eyeball red oaks. 

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=115283.0
Isaiah 63:10

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2021, 11:31:29 AM »
....junk trees go to the stove.

it is probably not possible to find a logger who will treat your land better than you would, thats just not their job.  and you will have a very hard time finding an economical way to get someone else to harvest the firewood without just giving it to them at best.  i am sorta in this line of work.
I've been taking fallen trees out of there for several years and selling them for firewood. One 24" dia log x 10 ft long is about 1/4 cord and worth about $100 CDN split, dried and delivered....approx $80 USD.

Just for a fun comparison, if a 24" x 10' log has 250 bdft and the logger is offering me $.85/bdft, then I get $212 for that log......so about $180 after taxes.  The firewood game is a cash deal so $100 vs $180.  Less work for sure, but still I'm left a little underwhelmed with the price of hardwood logs

Offline sealark37

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2021, 11:42:09 AM »
The private forester works for you, for his fee.  The logger works for himself, any way he can.  If you want to cut your trees, hire the forester.  Let him put it out for bids. You will be money and satisfaction ahead.

Offline barbender

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2021, 12:00:21 PM »
I'd skip the step of having the logger mark it, I think we all know which ones he's going to paint. He's going to take the highest value wood, if that's your goal as well I guess game on. Get a forester and have them set the sale up for you, and they paint it.
Too many irons in the fire

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2021, 02:57:18 PM »
If 85cents a foot on the stump doesnt suit you,  try delivering them to the mill for 32cents a foot with a 16 cent share to the landowner.  Might change your perspective.  


Itll only take a few diameter limit cuts to land your woodlot there too.  You can tour tennessee for proof. 
Isaiah 63:10

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2021, 07:05:20 PM »
35k ft over 65 acres is either the very best of the best or ? Has this been cut before ? Banging wood or scattered ? This oak job i just moved to is roughly 200ish thousand on 68acres and thats not hammering it. 

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Re: please help...hire Forester or not?
« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2021, 03:48:34 AM »
Or....He's planning to take 200 thousand ft and paying for 35 thousand. Without a forester he is not going to know.
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