Logging with Horses

[Norm]

I want to use my belgian draft for skidding on our place. I have no experience with a harness and have very little with draft horses in general. I was wondering if some of you folks that us em would answer some beginner questions like where do you get the harness and skidder attachments from? At what age do you start with training them? Do you prefer guildings over mares? Do you use a team or is one by itself able to do much? Any other tips would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Norm

[beenthere]

I think all you need is a chicken on a stick.   ;D :D :D :D

Maybe one chicken at the landing site, and another in the woods where the logs are at. Get the timing down so they pop up at the appropriate times for the belgian to start moving in that direction.

Seriously, there are Amish that could help you with the "attire" for the horse. I watched mules in New Mexico working up and down a mountain slope that moved by themselves pulling logs down to a landing. One logger at the logging site cutting and hooking up logs, with another at the deck un-hooking logs. The mules moved back and forth on their own. I have heard that horses won't do that, but then I also heard that horses don't eat chickens - so what do I know ???

[etat]

A well trained horse you can absolutely hook to the log and it'll take it straight to the trailor without assistance.  I've seen it more than once.  

When I was still living at home we always kept horses, mostly saddle horses for trail and pleasure riding.  I never did much like quarter horses as they can't hang with a good saddle horse when you're wanting to move fast in most cases.  Their primary gates are either a short lope, which eventually gets the horse tired, or a fast trot, which never suited my tailbone.

A quarter horse will however make a good working horse

A saddle horse's primary gates is either a single foot,  a racking gate, or a walking gate, these are smooth on the horse and can be either fast or slow.  Either one on is smoother on yer tail bone than a trot, even if it's a slow fox trot.  There's also a pacing gated horse, but I never cared much for pacing horses.

My dad always worked our garden with horses.  We'd also trailride sometimes to a covered wagon, which we made. He never bought a tractor until later in life, so sooner or later he'd train the horses we had to work.  Implements used were a middle buster, a plow, a planter, and a older mule type disc.

The harnesses we used were always the ones with a colllar and hames.  I never used a breast strap type harness until I got the little jackass and use that type to work with a cart.

Be careful when hooking a horse to harness for the first time, if they lunge they can jerk ya off yer feet and hurt you real bad.

The first thing we'd always hook a horse to when training would usually be either a log, or a ground slide.  Ground slides make a lot of racket especially on rock or hard ground so beware until the horse gets used to it it may scare them and they may lunge. The good thing about ground slides is they are easy to make out of two by 6's or two by 4's and you can get on them and ride.  Two timbers for runners, and then the decking agout three feet wide, about four feet long will do it.  Along with a short chain bolted to the two runners to hook the single tree to.

When trying to work the horse for the first time two people are the best.  One to hold the trace reins, and another to hold a long lead rope, hooked to ONE SIDE of the bits.  That way if the horse lunges the person holding the traces can turn loose, and the person holding the lead rope will be able to hold the horse in a circle, until he calms down and you can get him back under control.

Dad always thought it best to size the first thing he hooked to the horse as heavey enough the horse could move it with ease, but light enough the horse didn't have to strain too much when doing so.

The blinder harness help the horse keep from being too scared or nervous as to what is behind him.

Never get yourself in a position as to become entangled in the harness, the single tree, the chains, or the trace reins.  

We always broke horses, and ocassionally a few mules to work single, before pairing them up.  We have a neighbor who once had a pair of horses working to a wagon, and one of the horses went off the side of a bridge when the other horse pushed against him.  A real mess to get straightened out.  Luckly the bridge was over a shallow creek and neither horse was seriously hurt.

[Wes]

Norm,

check out    ruralheritage.com

[hosslog]

Norm ,I see that your from Iowa.Are there any amish near you? They would be handiest to get harness from.If you get to know them they will also be willing to help you out with advice.
most folks try to break their draft horse  as 2 or 3 year olds but because drafts don't mature as fast as lite horses, they don't give them any heavy work  til they are  4 or 5 yr old. Like loggin. ;)
If you are just going to use a single to skid all you need is a single tree with a grab hook for the choker or  tongs.
Horses have personalities same as folks, so some will take to working in the woods, some won't. Doesn't make any difference whether they are mares or geldings.
If you could find some one that has used horses in the woods to help you get started it would be safer but if you can't don't be afraid to try by yourself. I'll be glad to answer any questions that you come up with.

[Norm]

Thanks guys I appreciate the help. I have gone to rural heritage Wes and they are a great help, thanks. I grew up with horses and ponies but not drafts. My dad trained and drove a poney hitch when they were popular but by the time I was very old they had gone out of favor so I was never big enough to help with how to hitch them up. The Amish have a large community near here and that is where Becky came from. I don't like the way they train and wasn't sure if they would have the right equipment for logging.

We had her bred to a beautiful Percheron stud. She's a grade mare so purebreed wasn't a big deal, plus I like cross bred,
they tend to be less flighty. If I get a stud colt I'm going to have em cut and keep for logging and pleasure. That's why I asked how early to start them.

Becky is a good mare but has some quirks that make me unsure if she'll do well as a working horse. Probably comes from her early training.  She has a good personality and is easier to work with than quarters, I'm not sure if this is true of all drafts.

I guess I'm just nervous to try something I have no experience with so what I need to do is just try it.

[HORSELOGGER]

Hey Norm, I'm over in JoDavies county, Illinois, near Galena. Took me about 2 hours to get to Al and Lindas. C'mon over and play. ;D

[hosslog]

Norm, What kinda quirks has your mare got? Have you ever tried to ground her around the barn yard?

[Norm]

Thanks for the invite Horselogger, you probably couldn't stand all the questions. Al made the mistake of coming over and now his one leg is shorter after I about talked it off. Seriously thou I appreciate the offer and if I ever get some time off I'll call ahead and come talk about drafts with ya.

Hosslog she spooks real easy. Gentle as can be where she is familiar with but get her in a new spot and she'll break the halter off before you can hold her. She refuses to be tied up to anything. If you hold the lead rope she's fine but tie her up to trim hooves or to curry her and she goes nuts. Gets that look in her eyes that says get out of my way. One thing I learned with her is there's no holding a draft, just too darned big.

When starting to break for harness do you folks have a set pattern of what to do first and then next? I want to start her colt early to get it tamed but not hurt it by going too fast. Is there a set way you do this?

I hated horses as a kid because my job was to take care of them. Now I can't tell you how much enjoyment Patty and I get out of having one. About a month ago I couldn't decide if Becky was in foal or just fat. I was out in her paddock petting her and you could see the colt moving around. Sure made my day. Drafts sure seem to have a better temperment than any horse I worked with growing up.

Thanks again for the replies.

[bitternut]

Norm_F.......I took some pictures of some Amish doing some logging near me in NY State last winter. Thought maybe you might like to view some of the photos I took of their teams and the skidding carts they use.

Also in the February issue of Farming there was an add from a guy that makes horse drawn logging carts. He is located in Freedom NY. The phone # is 585-567-4876. He is most likely Amish as there is quite a few of them in that area of the state.

Here is a link to the horse logging photos

http://www.ofoto.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?&collid=206561193103&page=1&sort_order=0

[hosslog]

I see I left a word out in my last post. Should say" have you ever tried to ground drive her".
Don't know what to tell you about her spooking. Never ran into a draft that wouldn't tie.
Start with a foal and get them to trust you so that you can handle  feet give them shots and other unpleasant things without a fight.Once they lead and know basic commands,whoa ,back and gitup, then introduce the bit and start ground driving.

[Stan]

The best method is to harness a new horse with an old one, until it learns what you want it to do. Young horses are afraid of just about everything so you have to prove to them that what they are scared of won't hurt them. After bit they'll start to trust you. I think they call the harness used for dragging logs a chain harness, or something like that. One thing I saw that was pretty neat was a small pipe stall that you put them in until they got used to your putting harness on them. Go slow, and it helps to outsmart 'em.  ;)

[Norm]

Thanks for the pictures bitternut, I sure enjoyed them.  

Stan that's the way my dad would break a new one too. We would use the same to saddle break one too. Tie it up to an older mare and boy she would not take any guff off a young one.

Hosslog I think this came from some early handling by the previous owners. I've tried easing her into this stuff but she seems to have this imprinted in her. I'm hoping after having a colt she'll settle down a little. If not I'll still enjoy her for a brood mare. How old would you suggest to start with a bit in the colts mouth. We would wait until a year old with horses but you mentioned that drafts mature slower so wasn't sure.

That's a nice looking team you've got on your profile picture, if you get a chance could you tell about em. Thanks.

Norm

[hosslog]

Norm, Start bitting them just as soon as they are weaned. Just so they take the bit with out fighting. Ain't no fun to rope down a fullgrown horses head and try to pry a bit into their mouth.

That's Mike and Dick. Mike is the lighter colored one.I've had him 5 or 6 years. He was  a pulling horse before  I got him and they had used a cattle prod on him once to often.He had one speed - dead run.Took him about 6 months to slow down and work.
Dick I've only had a little over a year.He's 7 now and still a work in progress. If he was a human I  swear he would be in a home for the mentally challenged. :D Let him have a day off and he forgets every thing he knew the day before. They both weigh about a ton.

[HORSELOGGER]

Hey Norm,  I think I would get as heavy a halter as I could find, double em up even, and 2 lead ropes too, and tie her up some where in the barn and leave her stand. You mentioned that she wont stand, but you need to insist. ... I have 3 Suffolk Punch geldings for woods work, but a couple of years ago, a foot trimmer I knew mentioned that a lady up in SW Wisconsin had offered him a free grade Belgian philly that she had that was too wild for her to handle. He wasnt interested, and said that the lady would like a farm collie puppy like my wife was rasising and maybe we could pull off atrade. Well the long and short is we drove up to have a look, and found this wild lookin burr covered little rebel that thought she ran the place and did what ever she wanted. The little lady that owned her had bought the mama mare at an amish auction with the little philly as a one month old at her side. As the philly grew , the lady became afraid of her and the horse became super skittish back, and became a halter breaker that "wouldnt be tied". Well we made the trade and as soon as we got her home, her whole life changed. I tied her up good, and went to pick all the shrubbery out of her mane and tail, and she went through her assortment of sure fire tricks designed to make the human run off.....only I just kept pickin and rakin. No yellin or hollerin, just a firm persistence, and  no , I wasnt going to leave her alone. Point is I demanded that she let me do what I want, and eventually, she gave over to me and let me handle her with out the rodeo.Something I like to do with all my horses is expose them to all the sights smells and sounds of what I do here at the log yard. I built their dry lot right next to my mill yard . If we are'nt in the woods , they still get to hear the saw, the mill, the skidloader ( well, that usually means " oh boy ,a new round bale" ) My point is, try and start making her stand tyed up around where you are working now. If she can stand around in the pasture then she can stand around watchin you trim some logs or split firewood... whatever.  That little mare ( oh yeah, her name is Patty :D) had a dandy stout red roan stud colt last April and she is bred back to the same stud for this April  ( only 2 months to go ) She still has a flighty side to her, but she has come a long way from "you cant tie me"

[beenthere]

I had an American Saddle horse when I was a kid and she would not let herself be tied to a post, and would just go into a real panic. I was told, and did do it, that one way was to tie her to a log that she could move about the pasture, but it was big enough to be difficult to move. Eventually she just got so tired of fighting that log and then would allow herself to be tied to a post or rail. The end of some wild and frustrating times. Not sure if this is the best way or not. So much has changed with breaking horses.  

[etat]

beenthere, there is only one think about that idea.  You need to be there to watch.  If the horse becomes entangled in the rope it is possible it could break a leg.  We always tied horses up short because of this reason.  

Norm, the first bits you use for your colt should be very easy on the mouth.  Preferable a set of split bits, with no shank.  You can start this when the colt is very young, as said.

HORSELOGGER, is right, she can be taught to stand.  In order to train you horse you HAVE to earn her respect, by letting her know you aren't scared of her, (a horse can sense this).  That will be your first step.

We once had a serious of books that covered every aspect of horse breaking and training.  This was very good information, especially the parts about training and dealing with difficullt and different types and personalities of horses.   A few years ago I won a set off of ebay.  For the life of me right now I can't think of the name of them.  I looked and can't find them, I think they're over at my dads.  If I can find them I'll let you know and send them to you.  I don't think he would have throwed them away, (I hope).


Stan, I've seen me dad tie many a horse to the saddle of Old Target.  He was big for a saddle horse, and used to this.  My prefered method was to always get them in a freshly cut up field,  A horse can be gotten under control pretty quick if it's sinking up to it's ankles in mud.

Norm, I wouldn't count on her settleing  down after she has her colt, my experience has been mostly they do right the opposite, others may have had other experiences, I hope so.

When I was about 7 or 8 years old we were keeping a shetland pony for a neighbor.  They wanted us to get the horse ready to ride.  That horse liked to bite.  I 'think' he had been spoiled on sugar cubes, but I don't know.  Never feed a horse sugar, an apple is ok. We kept him in a stall and ever time I went to feed him he tried to bite me.  Several times he got ahold of my sleeve, lucky for me it was winter time and I was wearing a heavy coat.  I'd done tried whipping, and that wasn't working.  

I don't know, or remember where I got the idea.  I know I did it when dad wasn't at home.  I turned on the oven, and baked me a big ole potatoe.  As soon as it was ready I stuck it on a stick and headed for the barn.  As usually the horse tried to bite me, and I fed him a mouthful of hot potatoe.  The horse screamed, when he bit into it.  This may be considered inhumane treatment these days, but that horse never tried to bite me again.  I got him to where I could ride him, it took most of the winter.  When we carried him home, within a couple of weeks he was back to his old habits.  They then sold the horse.

Just before I got married my dad traded for a registered racking horse, two years old, that had gotten into a bob wire fence, and cut himself up very badly.  At the time I was training and showing racking and walking horses in my spare time for others, on a small scale. . He turned the horse over to me.  I kept the cuts doctored, and as they healed kept them rubbed every day with fried meat grease so the hair would grow back.  I also started breaking the horse to show, and did show him for two years.  I won a fair share of trophies, and ribbons, me and that horse was pretty good buddies.  Right after I got married my dad SOLD THE HORSE, that's a long long story, and bought another thinking it would all be ok with me.   I havn't cared about breaking or riding since, even though I keep a horse for the kids.  I rode that horse practically every day for two years. I'm sure my dad was not realizing the consenquences of what he did.  Some of it was my fault.

Once I had a horse that sprained his ankle.  He limped for a long while.  One day I was watching him in the pasture and I noticed something odd.  He was limping on the wrong foot!  

There are a few horses that can't be trained.  However with patience, a strong will, and the right methods those are few and far between.  It starts with earning the respect of the horse, and letting it know that it MUST do, what you expect it to do.  Probably a pretty hard thing with a giant of a horse like yours!  

[Norm]

Good advice from you folks. My dad would have told me the same but you know how it is with sons being told something. They most times will do the opposite. Horselogger your right that she needs to be shown whose boss, I don't believe in harsh treatment but what you guys are telling me is not harsh treatment just common sense. Been so many years since I've been around horses I've forgot most of what my dad taught me about handling em. When we first got her she would break out and head for the back forty. Pain in the butt to get back in. Second time I took the tractor out and ran her around the field till she about dropped. Next time she got out she saw that tractor coming and broke the fence getting back in. CK your story reminded me so much of growing up it was uncanny. Thanks for jogging my memory. Beenthere I still am considering the chicken on a stick method. :D

I really enjoy drafts and appreciate the stories about your experiences with em. You folks that use em for work have my upmost respect. Any time you want to add some pictures or stories about working with em I'd appreciate it.

Thanks again for everyones help.

Norm

[beenthere]

Norm
I can't claim any vast amount of horse training experience, but what cktate was talking about fits perfectly with the experience I do have - including the behavior of the new mother. She turned into a spoiled brat after her filly was born. It caught me off guard and I wasn't prepared with the knowledge to realize what was going on, and it took awhile to figure out how to correct it.
Short story, was one of her tricks was to rare (rear?) up when I was riding her, and to roll back over (backward summersault) to get me off her back. I simply would step off, until one day she plastered me hard up against the barn. That got my attention.  Before raring up, she would always throw her head up in the air. I got the idea to carry a ball bat, and as she tossed her head up, I would thump her between the ears. Now what I didn't plan was the velocity and momentum of me, the bat, and the horse head - which turned out to be much more than a 'thump' between the ears. The bat hit real hard, and her head dropped right flat to the ground on her knees, her eyes rolled back, and I thought I had killed her. Well I didn't, but truthfully, she NEVER tossed her head up to rare back onto me again. Its not my recommendation, and I still feel badly that I knocked her so hard - but - it worked. I guess it falls under the "get their attention" category.   :D

And cktate is right, need to watch when the horse is tied to the log. I was elk hunting in CO one fall, and the elk camp just up the valley from us was pretty down in the dumps when we rode over to visit the day before the season opened. Seems they had tied their horses out on logs, and one had become tangled in the rope and went over a cliff - breaking its neck and of course died. We always kept two horses tied on a rope between two trees, with one roaming free to graze.

[Tom]

Wow!  I've had that  happen too.  I was a youngster and riding a Gray Quarter horse that had always been my best bud.  This day, we were leaving the barn to ride, I backed him up and he reared. It surprised me and I hung on.  All the way over he went. I realized I was in a lot of trouble but, like a rearing tractor, it happens so fast you are unprepared.  I was lucky that I got my senses about me and pushed off off the saddle enough to get out from behind him.  I landed beside him and his head came down on my knee.  His head felt like it weighed about 900 lbs and I thought I had been crippled.

We were with the cowboy who lived on our farm and broke horses.  He also did ferrier work around the county.  He jumped from his horse, grabbed a pine knot and was on my horses back before he could get off of the ground.   I crawled away as the cowboy tried to make the horse back up. The horse would rear ever time and every time  he reared he got a couple of slaps between the ears with the pine knot.

As soon as he started behaving, the cowboy took him into the training pen.  It was a very sturdily built pen that was about 15 feet wide and 70 or 80 feet long, built from railroad ties, 2x12's and field fence.  He tied a neckerchief or big rag around the horses head and covered his eyes, then put him through a goading of tight turns and hard starts, running at the end of the pen and stopping him before he hit the fence.  The horse probably lost all sense of direction and had to depend on the cowboys rein instructions to keep from being hurt in the pen.  When it was all over with, there had been a flurry of non-stop action from the time I hit the ground until I was given the horse back.  He told us that you can't let a horse get away with that even one time.  

Even though I wasn't the horseman he was,  I was led to believe that I could and should take care of the situiation myself if alone.  Thank goodness he was there because I was more concerned with my life than gettng the horse's attention.  Scared the Beewhilikers out of me. Scared the beewhilikers out of the cowboy too. He said I could have been split like a slingshot hit in the fork.  He was very protective of us boys.

Oh!  I got to shoot his single barrel 12 guage shotgun at a rabbit one time.  I think he made it out of a piece of plumbing pipe and a 2x6 cause it blackened my arm and sat me down on my rump.   He laughed and slapped his leg and laughed some more.  I didn't think it was so funny. :D

[etat]

Norm, I just talked to my dad.  He is looking for the books.  I'll let you know later.

He did refresh my memory on some pretty good advice.  To tie a horse that doesn't want to stand, or pull loose, use a strong halter.  That goes without saying.  Also, tie the horses head high.  IF you can get the hoses head up high enough when you tie her she will not be able to pull with her body weight, nor will she want to.  The pressure will be against her neck instead of her body weight, she'll give up and stand there.

When breaking to harness with a big horse it takes THREE people, not two as I said before.  One to handle the trace reins, and one with a long lead rope on both sides of the horse.  This will make it safer for everybody involved, including the horse as she will be unable to have her own way. She won't be able to pull away from all three people if you have a good set of bits.

[etat]

Norm I found the books.  THe titles are Professor Beery's illustrated course in horse training. They were written back in the early 60's.   I have 6 of the booklets, Book one and 4  is missing.  The ones I have are Book 2 Disposition and Subjection, Book 3 Kicking and balking, book 5 Bad to shoe and halter pulling, Book 6, MIscellaneous habits, Book 7 Pony training and special fears, and Book 8 Teaching tricks to horses and dogs.  I have another course of his books on teaching saddle horses, I don't think you'd need those.

There is a world of useful information in these booklets.  Prof. Beery was of the opinion that there was no horse that could not be trained and his methods are illustrated.  If you will send me a instant message with your address  I wil send the books to you.  I'm of the opinion you need them worse than me! ;D  Seriously , send me your address.  If you don't I will be mad. :D

[Norm]

Well thank you ck, that's very generous of you. I'll send you a PM.

Norm

[etat]

The check, I mean the books are in the mail! ;D  Feed Patty, I mean the horse an apple for me!!!!!   ;D ;D
(running to hide again) 8) 8) 8)

[HORSELOGGER]

CK isnt that guy an advocate of tieing a trip rope to the horses leg and throwing it, tieing its legs and sitting on it.etc.... I had some of those books I believe, if my memory is right. Same guy?