I got this saw new over forty years ago. My father bought it for me when I went to live in the north woods. It is 61 cc and was never easy to pull, especially when cold. I have used it to cut about thirty cord of firewood over the years. After I learned how to sharpen the chain which took about two years and about five cord, it rips through logs. I have known some professionals and could match them in cutting speed. One of them told me that I would never wear out my saw but eventually I would not be able to get parts. Time has proven that he was right. I have not done much cutting in the last ten years and now find that it almost impossible to pull the cord. The compression has increased because it turns fine without the spark plug. It is so hard to pull, I cannot pull it fast so when it hits, it snaps my fist back into the machine. If I keep trying, eventually it hits just right and roars back to life. I can see that the top of the piston is black with carbon. I am desperate for some advice because the compression is off the charts and would appreciate any comments. I wonder if it would be difficult to install a decompressing valve. I am thinking about putting a propane torch in the spark plug hole and blasting away. I have done that to spark plugs and it worked great to clean them. About one or two cords ago, I did switch from a 25 : 1 mix to a 50 : 1 mix. I have started it every day for the past week but the compression is still off the charts. I prime it, put it on the ground, step on the rear, put about 100 lbs of force on the handle, take the slack off the cord, then apply about 50 lbs of pull to move the piston for one pop. After smashing my fist three or four times and another prime, it usually starts. I used to always drop start it but now, forget about it. I removed the muffler to replace a screw and the port and piston looked good.
Sounds like your saw's piston and cylinder has lots of carbon buildup from that heavy mix from over the years.
You'll have to remove the cylinder.
Welcome to the forum.
Thanks a lot. What you say makes a lot of sense. I will try to get any gaskets that are needed but was told a few years ago by a Stihl dealer that there were no more parts. I did use Stihl oil and used the recommended mix. The last time I bought mix oil, I was told to go to 50: 1 which I did. So, it wasn't my fault. :) Thanks again.
Although carbon buildup is a likely cause of your problem, issues with the rope and pulley can be culprits as well. Is the rope the normal length? If you have a short rope, that can make the saw harder to pull over as the pulley isn't as full.
Thanks deerslayer -- Is the original rope and about 32 inches including the handle.
Better high than low comp. I rebuilt a husky 365 years ago and could barely pull it over one compression at a time but she started and cut with fury. As long as she will start use it I would squirt a little penetrating oil in the plug hole and let it sit. Good chance it will loosen and probably burn excess carbon. Yes your buddy was right about the old Stihls I have a 1976 031 AV and a 041 they just keep trucken if you can find parts, if you find parts saws cheap squirrel them away. Frank C.
Just because Stihl doesn't support a product anymore doesn't mean parts aren't available. There's a lot of stuff available and now with the internet, they can be found. Used, aftermarket, new old stock, options are out there if you want to keep one of these old saws in service. As stated previously, pick up a parts saw or two for extra parts. ie, take three saws and make two, then one...
Thanks deerslayer -- Is the original rope and about 32 inches including the handle.
As an owner of a 041 I can attest to its longevity. My suspicion is with the rope. As time marches on the rope is wearing or getting narrower. This causes the rope to wedge itself inside the pulley. Basically acting like a back lashed fishing reel.As this happens you loose all mechanical leverage and the saw acts like it has more compression than it really has.As the rope is rewound on the pulley the mechanical leverage increases. If the rope gets wedged in the pulley because of normal wear then you are feeling the classic symptoms that you are experiencing. I would also inspect the recoil spool for cracks. Get the proper size rope. Ken
Thanks Frank -- I did try some penatrating oil but did not let it sit and I also filled it with some B12 and let it sit overnight. I think that it did help a little because, after starting it and running it a few times, I noticed that some of the carbon did burn off the piston top. It was still black but smoother looking than before. Did not feel easier to start but it is definitly worth another try. I will warm up the saw first and maybe that will help.
Thanks again deerslayer. I will try to find any gaskets that I might need. I am no mechanic but I do have the shop manual which has been a great help in the past. I recently used it to remove the muffler which was a big job for me. Could not have done it without the manual. And, I have the parts list so was able to go a hardware store and get the correct muffler screws.
Thanks ken -- Sounds like a good idea to check out the rope and pulley first before I attempt to remove cylinder.
You have to be careful loosening up alot of carbon at once and then running the saw to get it out. It can scuff the p/c up pretty good.
Have you experienced an increase in exhaust smoke? The Stihl 'lay downs' had the oil pump inboard of the crank seal, they were known to leak and fill the crankcase. The result is a hydraulic lock.
I had a 044AV that had a tiny chain oil leak into the crankcase after it sat long enough.
Was harder then blazes to start it , then would smoke for a bit when it got running.
Quote from: sawguy21 on November 12, 2015, 02:54:12 PM
Have you experienced an increase in exhaust smoke? The Stihl 'lay downs' had the oil pump inboard of the crank seal, they were known to leak and fill the crankcase. The result is a hydraulic lock.
Could you hang it after use with the bar straight down and see if it made any difference ?
Stihl offers a lot of parts that are available. Some are out dated but lot of after market companies make parts as well. Was there a specific part you needed?
Two things .It's highly unlikely the saw gained compression from sitting .It's also unlikely it carboned up from heavier oil /fuel mix .
Fact of the matter I've worked on saws over 40 years old, had sat 20 that were ran on 16 to 1 mix using motor oil not mix oil that weren't carboned up .
My bet is it's something with the rope or starter drum binding .
Hollmen -- Thanks for the warning. I will do a little at a time and then keep starting it and hope for the best. Removing the cylinder sounds like a better idea but it also sounds a lot more involved and I am afraid that I would need a gasket.
sawguy -- I have not noticed more smoke but will be more aware. Thanks.
Texas-Jim -- My filter cover is held on by duct tape because the threads stripped a few years ago and I was told by a Stihl dealer that there were no more parts for my model. I also tore a carb gasket into two pieces but it still seems to work fine. I would also like to pull the rope cover and may need a gasket for that. And a cylinder gasket would be nice in case I need to remove it.
Al_Smith -- Thanks for your input. Maybe I should remove the rope cover even though the rope winds smooth without the spark plug.
PS I warmed the engine by running it for minute and then sprayed a bunch of Blaster penetrator oil into the warm cylinder, let it sit for several hours and then got it started after banging my knuckles about ten times. It smoked like crazy for about a minute but sounded good. Thanks again to all you guys for all your help.
Stihl doesnt offer the nut but theres several on ebay now plus i think theres a sponsor here as well. 1110 140 9500 is the part number for the slotted nut. carb gasket is avalible.
Thanks Texas Jim -- You have all been a big help. I have an update. I took my saw to a Factory certified Stihl tech who works at a Stihl tool rental. I told him that it was very hard to pull the cord and impossible to start without having at least one or two kick backs. He took my cold saw, pulled it about seven or eight times with no kick backs and it started. I was embarrassed. I then started it with two pulls but the first pull kicked back. Clearly, I need to improve my technique. He said that many saws get hard to pull when they get old and if I wanted an easier pull, I should buy a new saw. He had a new 461 on sale for $882 and said that it was much easier to start even though it is 76 cc compared to my 61 cc. A saw comparable to mine would be $500. He noticed that I drilled a small hole in the air filter cover and covered it with a piece of tape and he knew, without me telling him, that I used it to prime the engine. He liked it a lot which made me feel less like a newbie. I am proud of that modification because I thought of it on my own and it works great. On a cold start, it used to take seven or eight full pulls to get a hit. Now, I squirt in a little fuel and get a hit on the first pull. Thanks again to everyone. I learned a lot including how to live with a saw that is very hard to pull.
My old 266 has gotten a lot harder to pull the rope the last ten years or so, but I don't think it is the saws fault.
:D I hear ya.
My 041 and 044 both got harder to pull after I started using my 261 75% of the time. Funny how of the 3 only the 261 has a decompression button and it don't need it.
The only thing if it is not the rope could be ignition timing.Your dealer is after your $$. All I am able to come up with that you are either using to much oil or not running the saw hard enough to burn the oil out of the cylinder.Something else to consider is gas is leaking down into the cylinder causing your issues. This will defiantly cause a hard starting condition. Ken
ken -- I think that you are right about the dealer because he did not offer any advice except to buy a new saw. The top of the piston and cylinder are definitly carboned up because I can see it from the plug hole. And, I know that you are right about the timing. If I could retard the timing when starting, that would solve my problem because I cannot pull the cord fast enough to prevent kick backs. Yesterday, I tried for ten minutes to start it on the ground but failed because it kept kicking back. I then succeeded in drop starting it which allows me to pull it a bit faster. There should be a simple retard timing switch. It would be just as good as a decompression valve, IMO. I have been thinking about retarding the timing and have never tried but I do have the manual. On a car, it is easy to do. I just bought a D handle at Lowes for six bucks.
One way to tell if it is a timing issue that is foolproof. Ready for it? Try and start it with the ignition switch OFF.If it is a timing issue this will tell you in an instant or better yet even unplug the wire from the spark plug. Either way this will tell us what we are looking for.With the switch in the off position no spark so no timing issues.I am going out on a limb and say you have a carburetor problem. It is leaking gas down into the cylinder and this is causing your hard pulling. Remember that gas and oil will not compress. You are fighting what is called hydra lock or something of this nature. I hope this helps you, Ken
Thanks Ken -- I am sure that it is not a leaking carb because I often remove the spark plug, inspect it, and look inside. I would notice any wetness. And, before I installed a fuel primer, it took a good seven or eight pulls to get any fuel into the cylinder in order to get the first pop. I have also pulled the cord many times with the ignition grounded to see if it was still hard to pull and it is the same except when, with the ignition on, it kicks back and pulls my arm back down which now happens more often than not. As you probably know, ignition starts before top dead center in order develop full force at about 90 degrees after TDC in order to apply the maximum force or torque to turn the crank shaft. At the very, very low rpm when pulling the cord, more force develops before TDC which can snap your arm back down. That kick back can be eliminated or lessened be igniting the fuel later in the cycle or closer to TDC or right at TDC. That is what I meant by retarding the timing. The problem with retarding the timing would be less power at high rpm because the maximum force would be taking place after 90 degrees. A well-designed ignition system would not kick back because the timing would be very retarded or very close to TDC at very low rpm and very advanced at high RPM. My ignition is definitly too far advanced at the very low starting RPM because it keeps kicking back. Harder to pull means a lower RPM which requires a later or more retarded ignition in order to prevent kick backs. My guess is that newer saws have better ignition timing graphs which eliminate most or all kick backs and still give maximum power at high RPM. Please forgive me if you knew all of this. I have been working on my pulling technique in order to increase RPM when starting and have made some progress. --Rick
Rick, from your post that you installed a primer bulb is proof that the gas is going into the cylinder. A 041 was not designed for a primer bulb. I am trying to help you. My 041 sitting in my garage will take 3-5 pulls to fire it up.Listen to what I am trying to tell you.The gas may not be leaking into the cylinder but into the crankcase. Eventually it gets drawn into the cylinder and this is causing your hard to pull anomalies. I am 60 and have been working on saws for close to 35 years.After the saw has been running a bit and you shut it off, a small amount of heat may be causing the gas inside the carburetor to expand. It is going down inside the engine.Into the crankcase or cylinder depending where the piston is.You need a carburetor kit.Best of luck, Ken
Keep calm Ken... ;) :)
Thanks Ken -- You certainly could be right because you definitly know a lot more about saws than me. A carb kit would be worth a try. It can't hurt anything and does not sound like a difficult job, especially considering the fact that I have the diagram and all the specs. And, I can take it inside and do it in comfort on my kitchen table. Finding the kit will probably be the hardest part of the job. P.S. I don't have a primer bulb. I just squirt a little fuel through a hole that I drilled on the top of the air filter cover. When I squirt it, I get a pop on the first pull which, unfortunately, kicks backwards and pulls my arm back down. For the first thirty years of my saw's life when it was much easier to pull, it took seven or eight pulls to get the first pop. Thanks again for your patience.
Here you go. This should get you going, Ken
http://www.sawagain.com/stihl-041-045-051-056-076-tillotson-carburetor-rebuild-kit/
Thanks Ken -- Great link. I just ordered it and it is only $13 shipped. which was a pleasant surprise.
I invented a starting technique which works great for me. I am now able to start my saw with the first or second pull after priming and am able to get a full pull with two compressions. I have started it once or twice per day for the past week without the cord kicking back once and getting my fist slammed.
It is similar to the drop start except that I throw the saw to the left parallel to the ground instead of dropping it down. I stand with my feet about two feet apart or more. Hold the saw handle with left hand at stomach height with left elbow bent and bar pointing about 45 degrees to the left. I then twist my body to the right without moving my feet until the saw is completely to the right of my body and bar is pointing about 30 degrees to the right of straight ahead. I then quickly rotate back to the left while simultaneously straightening my left arm to get the saw moving faster. About half way through the rotation, I pull the cord to the right. For me, it works much better than the drop, back of the knee, or ground start where I get back fires and am not able to get a full pull or a fast pull. It feels great that I can now start my saw without struggling for fifteen minutes or more. Thanks again to all.
I don't know what the hell you just described, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't ever do that to start a saw. The first place I'd think to look is inside the starter housing. If there is an issue as pointed out with the rope or pulley that could cause binding you could also put stress on the flywheel, particularly if it was getting uneven pressure on different sides. I'd check for signs of anything like this. Check flywheel for a sheared key also if timing is off and kicking back on startup.
Thanks John -- I am going to remove the starter housing for a look. And I ordered a carb kit. In the last ten years, I have only started it four or five times for some light yard triming and it has gotten very hard to pull so I can only pull it slowly through one compression. Before that I used it to cut firewood logs that were delivered to my home and was always able to start it for three decades using both ground and drop start. Those methods no longer work so I tried something different. By throwing it to the left and pulling to the right, I am now able to pull it through two compressions without the piston going in the wrong direction and it starts and sounds great. Of course, I still would like the cord to pull like it always did but am happy that I found a work-around.
First post-- Had same problem way hard pull. Removed plug pulls normally. Bar oil ran from plug hole. Sprayed carb cleaner,drained, replaced plug. pulled 5 times --running good. Thanks guys. Really helped.