post and beam metal brackets

shad · January 19, 2010, 11:46:29 PM

are there any books that cover making your own heavy metal brackets for post and beam construction? Not saying i'm going this route, just exploring my options.

Bibbyman · January 20, 2010, 05:30:30 AM

MAN! I asked that question one time on this section and started a fight. People are sensitive about such things. :D

Brad_bb · January 20, 2010, 07:44:23 PM

A fight? I wonder if you are referring to Jim R. and I?
Not a fight, but I think there seems to persist a misconception by some that post and beam is somehow faster and easier than mortise and tenon timberframe.

That is where we disagree. I don't think it's any faster or easier. People tend to discount (don't count) the time or cost involved for the bracketry and fitting.

They also tend to think it takes less skill, but you still have to do precise layout, have square end cuts, and bore holes parallel to the faces so that the bracketry fits properly, and probably still have to pick reference faces, label timbers etc.

Poor fitments, will be just as bad with P&B as poor fitment of mortise and tenon. I believe we would both argue that the skill level or time needed isn't really significantly different.

Both styles of frames are good, it just depends on the look you are after. From what I have personally seen, post and beam seemed to be used more for industrial buildings initially and migrated into some churches etc.

I don't have enough historical information to say when it started or became most popular, but I'd say somewhere in the latter half of the 1800's thru the early part of the 1900's. I'm sure there's a book out there or research. Anyone with more info feel free to correct me.

Alexis · January 21, 2010, 12:58:02 AM

You should try timberframing for the rest of us by rob roy, I don't own it so cannot comment on the quality.

Alexis

Bibbyman · January 21, 2010, 07:58:30 PM

Here is a link to the post I made about the same question. There is some info in it that would be useful.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,23678.0.html

Brad_bb · January 22, 2010, 12:35:39 AM

I didn't see any fight in that older topic, just discussion.

WildDog · January 22, 2010, 05:06:15 AM

I was at a funeral today and being one of the latecomers 6 of us had to go negotiate an old staircase to the upstairs area of an old church, once up their I was close to the old truses, they were magnificent and were bracketed with iron. The old iron brackets really set it off, I am probably biased as I like to mess around on the forge and like the combination of the 2 materials. I am not religious and have never attended a church on Sunday so I am not sure if cameras are allowed in, but I would really like to get some pics.

moonhill · January 22, 2010, 07:31:04 AM

I have taken inside pictures of many churches, just ask and ye shall receive.

Not a lot of metal plates but I do see a lot of rods. Iron has been used for hundreds of years.

Tim

shinnlinger · January 22, 2010, 06:27:08 PM

If you want, I can take better pics, but in this barn I built here, if you look at the left side by the scaffolding, you can see where I added some steel at the butt joints. I took some flat stock and welded them into Ts and then drilled or torched holes and lagged them on the posts. It would have been better to through bolt them to to another plate on the other side or at least lag another T on the other side, but I didn't for a few reasons. One I didn't think of it at the time, two, I am kinda lazy and three It has the siding on now and that helps hold it all together, or thats what I keep telling myself.

That said, I am with Brad. If I figure in the time and expense of welding up the T's and adding lags vs cutting a mortise and tenon, I bet I come out ahead doing it traditionally, and that is even when the steel and lags I had laying around and I welded them myself. If I had to buy Simpson lag plates or have a machine shop make them, I would be way ahead just using my chisel.

I didn't have the confidence in my timber joints when I built the barn, but if I knew then what I know now I would have just cut the joints.

Dave

ARKANSAWYER · January 22, 2010, 06:37:22 PM

If'n I could write I would rite the book on it. And I am not afraid of Brad or Jim. (they live way off up east somewheres) If'n it weren't for steel them boys could not cut wood. Yous don't see then knapping chisels out. ;D

Hilltop366 · January 22, 2010, 08:51:08 PM

I don't have any steel plates in my little bit of frame on my house but I don't mind the look of it if done nice, I figure to each his own as long as it is sound and pleases the end user.

I'm thinking what a great excuse to get one of those CNC plasma cutters, it would sure make quick work out of cutting the plates. holes and all they could easly be embillished with curves or designs of some sort with little extra work, they even can put engravers on them so you could mark them for location.......... Ya, I know you can do that on wood with a chisel and ....... :D

But I figure any excuse to buy a new tool!

Check it out these things amaze me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ozsbYjIfv8&feature=related

jfl · January 22, 2010, 11:02:29 PM

Quote from: Alexis on January 21, 2010, 12:58:02 AM
You should try timberframing for the rest of us by Rob Roy, I don't own it so cannot comment on the quality.

I have that book. I was also looking for information on how to engineer metal brackets, or in fact any other connections (shear ring, angle, or whatever). There isn't much information on the brackets themselves, except reference to Simpson Strong-Tie and UPS.

Personally, I got more engineering knowledge regarding connection from a timber framing book: A Timber Framer's Workshop from Steve Chappell, than from Timber Framing for the rest of us. Rob Roy covers the whole project process in a global manner and no sections are really detailed enough, IMHO.

Brad_bb · January 22, 2010, 11:18:15 PM

ARKANSAWYER, You got me grinin' on that one.

jfl, what year did you do Foxmaple? I did 2007. I think Steve does a great job of showing and giving an understanding of what goes into the stress/load/shear calculations. I don't think anyone will walk out of there and be able to completely analyze their frame though, unless they are an engineer to start with. You have to be real careful with how you set up your loads. Simple mistakes can lead to real problems. That's why all engineers need other engineers to check their work on critical stuff like that. But it's great insight for all TF students.

I understand that the original poster was interested in brackets for a shed/shop building and hence looks may not be paramount. I would struggle with that myself though. If it's going to show, it's in my nature to do it well and have some level of finesse. If I were going to make brackets, I would definitely want them to look like they were made by the Blacksmith. Rough edges of a hand plasma cut wouldn't cut it for me. Just an FYI, today, cutting brackets would be much faster by laser or CNC water jet or plasma. If you repeated multiple of the same brackets, it would be more economical- reduced layout time in cad.

Oh, that I posted this pic in another discussion, but here is an example of a bracket in an industrial building my family owns circa 1890 or so.

WildDog · January 23, 2010, 05:21:09 AM

Hilltop thats a great bit of gear there, I could find some good uses for it.

shinnlinger · January 23, 2010, 08:51:02 AM

An argument for plates is Mr inspector....some places don't like timber joints, but I can't believe adding a C-N-C to the process will make it cheaper. Nicer looking maybe. I was thinking of taking the steel and pounding it flatter on an an anvil for more visual areas.

As for design, I would copy Simpson or similar for how to lay out the holes and use a drill press. You can probably do most of it with straight flat stock and holes.

jfl · January 23, 2010, 10:40:30 AM

Quote from: Brad_bb on January 22, 2010, 11:18:15 PM

jfl, what year did you do Foxmaple? I did 2007. I think Steve does a great job of showing and giving an understanding of what goes into the stress/load/shear calculations. I don't think anyone will walk out of there and be able to completely analyze their frame though, unless they are an engineer to start with. You have to be real careful with how you set up your loads. Simple mistakes can lead to real problems. That's why all engineers need other engineers to check their work on critical stuff like that. But it's great insight for all TF students.

I did not do Foxmaple, I only bought the book on Amazon. Still, out of "Timber framing for the rest of us" and "The craft of modular post and beam" from James Mitchell, I got best info on how to build a non-TF building from the TF book...

But as you mention above, I'm an engineer to start with. Maybe that's why I like that book.

Quote from: Brad_bb on January 22, 2010, 11:18:15 PM
Just an FYI, today, cutting brackets would be much faster by laser or CNC water jet or plasma. If you repeated multiple of the same brackets, it would be more economical- reduced layout time in cad.

I wish I could just put my hand on that machine... But anyway trying to align multiples holes through timbers to fit the plates doesn't look easy. I did try to put 2 holes through 5.5 inch thick beam last autumn (for a swing for my childrens) and it was quite a challenge (it took me quite a long time). Suddently, timber framing joints might not be so long to make...

jf

ARKANSAWYER · January 23, 2010, 11:02:18 AM

Tip: If you are bolting through a timber to two plates. Just drill hole pattern in one plate. clamp it to timber and bore through the timber. Then clamp on the plate on the other side and mark the hole location. Then drill that far plate. They will only fit that joint.

shinnlinger · January 23, 2010, 03:20:21 PM

Arky,

I would think that would only work with one hole. The bit would wander I would think for multiple holes. The other solution is lag bolts, but I would add a few extra holes as you never know exactly what lags are doing....

Dave

Hilltop366 · January 24, 2010, 04:05:30 PM

Quote from: shinnlinger on January 23, 2010, 08:51:02 AM
An argument for plates is Mr inspector....some places don't like timber joints, but I can't believe adding a C-N-C to the process will make it cheaper. Nicer looking maybe. I was thinking of taking the steel and pounding it flatter on an an anvil for more visual areas.

As for design, I would copy Simpson or similar for how to lay out the holes and use a drill press. You can probably do most of it with straight flat stock and holes.

Really didn't think it would be cheaper unless you were doing a lot of them but I could not stop my self from thinking of an excuse to buy a new tool ;)