Starting a fire-wood business, looking for some sage advice.

[Lord Far-Quad]

Dear everyone, 

I am looking to start a fire-wood business, and any input on the matter whatsoever would be highly appreciated. Here is the vision for the business:

I use a plot of land about 45minutes outside of my city as a base/ sort. I negotiate contracts with those responsible for nearby Forestry Management Areas and either pull wood from slash-piles or have shipments of timber brought in on trucks for me to then process at my yard. 

My main start-up expenses would be a splitter, a spare saw, and a dump-trailer.

A cord goes for $250-$350 in my city (Alberta). There are about a million people and the demand is high.

This is a good business model for my life-style as it gives me a way to work/ build equity while I am between jobs, as the nature of my day-job involves short-term contracting where I am away in the bush for months, and then back for a few weeks/ month. I would run the business legitimately. You may be able to tell that I haven't done this before. I may work a little bit with a firewood person as an employee to learn a few things, but I may also just start it without that experience. A big question for me as I start this up that I would love some input on is: How many cords can a single person process in a day? I ask this question with the assumption that access to wood is not a problem. This is an important number for me in terms of the financial side of the gig. 

Thank you very much for your time and energy.

[mike_belben]

Between .25 and 20, depending on who ya ask!  

Welcome, and goodluck in your venture.

[barbender]

Without a loader or any other support equipment, I'd say about 2 full cords in an 8 hour day by yourself with a homeowner/fleet store style splitter. And you'll be very tired. When just using my splitter, it would take me and another guy 3-4 hours to get 2 cords done. That was bucking and splitting. A lot of the commercial splitter guys will post how many cords per hour you can do with their machine, but that's always with wood that is already bucked and staged. I find that to be kind of meaningless.

[Lord Far-Quad]

Between .25 and 20, depending on who ya ask!  

Welcome, and goodluck in your venture.

Thank you for the welcome and the advice

Without a loader or any other support equipment, I'd say about 2 full cords in an 8 hour day by yourself with a homeowner/fleet store style splitter. And you'll be very tired. When just using my splitter, it would take me and another guy 3-4 hours to get 2 cords done. That was bucking and splitting. A lot of the commercial splitter guys will post how many cords per hour you can do with their machine, but that's always with wood that is already bucked and staged. I find that to be kind of meaningless.

That is some very interesting info. Do you have any recommendations for a sweet-spot in terms of equipment price vs equipment efficiency? I can't afford a $40'000 commercial splitting machine, but I could potentially afford something a bit more expensive than the $800 home harware special, if it made sense in terms of volume. 

[stavebuyer]

Two cords is a stretch if you include delivery time, sharpening the saws, changing oil etc. As you progress up the equipment ladder toward automation you find that the small processors are very limited in the material they will process which tends to eliminate the tree trimmer byproducts. Those machine needs poles.

A log lift on the splitter will save your back and an elevator to load will save your elbows and shoulders. They tend more to keep you from quitting early and saving you from exhaustion. 2 cords of green hardwood is 4-5 tons. If you are lifting the blocks to the splitter and then throwing the splits that is 8-10 tons you are handling. A splitter with a good work table and a fixed wedge also helps. The box wedges work good for production but produce a large amount waste.

A dump trailer, saw, and $1000 splitter will get you started and exhausted for 2 cords per day. Not many would choose to continue that effort long term. Add 15K for a god commercial splitter with log lift and an elevator will make the 2 cords and part of a 3rd and leave you with enough energy to do something after work like normal people.

Fine tuning wood supply and your customer base to the upper end of the market will be the goal that decides if the work pays enough to justify the expense and effort.

The equipment sales videos are sales aids. They don't show the work producing the pile they split in 10 minutes or the logs they bypassed to get the perfect sized and knot free pieces to the "show".

[stavebuyer]

Also many of the folks in the "business" tend to be in a related business such as logging or tree trimming/landscaping so they own related equipment and use firewood as a filler activity and may have access to "free" wood that they may otherwise have to pay to dispose of.

[Ianab]

As you have a "day job", you have the flexibility to work in your off time, and see how it pans out. 

I've sold a bit of firewood, small loads, mill off cuts, left over storm cleanup and limbs etc. with minimal equipment. You can make money that way if you offset the  gym fees against hefting firewood. I would charge the going rate for firewood, so I wasn't undercutting the guys actually making a living from it, but I did smaller local loads, for the folks that could only afford a $100 1/3 of a cord loads. I would put an ad on FB and have to take it down after a few hours as I had all the orders I could deliver in the next couple of weeks. Main thing, honest advert. Wood was Dry (under 20%) , it was mixed species, and I delivered a full measure. Pine and cypress are acceptable firewood here, but Eucalyptus. Sheaok or maple are better. So "mixed" was all sorts. But happy and repeat customers, because the wood was actually dry, 

What gets you a bad name is selling green wood as "dry". You can sell green firewood, but you have to make sure the customer KNOWS it's green, it's next years wood, and they are getting a discount for that. The good money is having DRY wood near the end of winter.  

[jimbarry]

I started with a SplitFire235 and graduated to a used EastonMade 12-22 and a used Hakki Pilki 37 Easy. The HP will process reasonably straight logs up to about 15" diameter but I keep it at 12" because occasionally a 14-15" block can get stuck on the 4way of the HP. Not fun to remove. So the EM handle anything larger or knarly. The best we can manage is 2 cord a day on the HP, but we also stack onto crates so that eats into the time. We crate so that it can go in the kiln for drying.

On the occasional time we dump right into the dump truck, a cord takes about an hour through the processor. If we're just doing large wood (+12" to 20"), using the EM we can stack and rack a cord in about 1hr 15 min.

The wife and I do firewood part time. Like said earlier, as a filler for the day. You still need breaks, and deal with stuff that breaks. Don't know how physically fit you are but either way, doing firewood is a learning curve for your body. Don't go all out at first or your body will remind you. We're in our mid 50's and a cord a day is a good enough pace for us. The market here is enormous so we just focus on a very small niche of that market, those customers who want dry wood and don't mind paying extra for it.




 


 


 




 

 

[mike_belben]

I always see reference to these uninterrupted work days and cant remember the last time i did any one thing for any full day block of time without some other gotta go do ____ within a few hours.  


In my opinion the bobcat with a grapple that sorts your log pile and brings it from the storage corners to the work station, and the conveyor that moves the wood from the splitter to the the truck.. Then the truck that dumps it in a driveway faster than buyer can tear off a check, all matter more than the splitter itself.  

All you need is a saw and a maul to pittle in firewood.  Youll have slightly more investment than a mcdonalds employee and probably make about the same per hour working 10x as hard but being your own boss.  To "make money" at firewood requires machinery.  How much machinery it will pay for is dictated by the price per cord your area will pay.  At $150 a cord you better be a fabricator.  At $400/cd you better just swipe your card and get goin.

Every single element of the firewood chain can and will cause work stoppage at some point.  

Again, dont go broke on a splitter that just dumps wood on the ground for you to pick up.  Conveyor conveyor conveyor.  

If you cant get or build a conveyor abd must toss pieces off the splitter, absolutely do not be a stack in guy. Highsides on a dump and toss it in.  Stacking does not pay.. It costs.  You cant be a stacker unless you are like jim, the highest price getter around.


Dont forget that manual firewood is the definition of repetitive task injury.  Every year you do it is a year sooner that you get admitted to the carpal tunnel committee.  Even after you quit the memory will remain each time you reach for milk or get out of the bed. Count on it. 

[jimbarry]

I always see reference to these uninterrupted work days and cant remember the last time i did any one thing for any full day block of time without some other gotta go do ____ within a few hours.  

Truth!

"Every single element of the firewood chain can and will cause work stoppage at some point. "

Yeah, like DOT stopped me at the scales today.  >:(

[mike_belben]

gestapo wanted to see your papers, eh comrade?  how much did it cost you to avoid the firing squad?

[jmur1]

I do mine as a pure hobby and I find that I can get a lot done as long as I do a little bit every day.  It is important to not overdo it at this type of work.  It is very easy to overexert your self when you try to move too much volume or too big of chunks when you do not have the required machines.

I would honestly say for me a loader with forks is the first purchase, then the splitter, followed by other required items.
I would fully agree with others that 2 cord/day is a good long day for most standard setups.

ps
I always joke with my buddies - these papers are not in order (said just like in hogans heros) - guards seize him!

jmur1

[hedgerow]

Lord Far-Quad Welcome to the forum. You say a cord of wood in you area runs $250-$350 you need to find out what it takes to get the $350. I haven't sold firewood in a number of years but when I did I found out real quick you want to deal with the folks that pay top dollar for wood. Back in the day in the city I worked in at night that meant I would take two cord on a trailer and two on a truck and it might take all day to get that unloaded. I dealt with folks that wanted dry season easy starting wood and usually just wanted a rack filled up. That's were the money was not selling to the guy that heating full time with wood and is always looking for cheap wood. Now days I just put up the 15 cord or so of hedge I burn every year in my Garn and that enough. I think by your self bucking splitting and loading two cord a day will be a long day. I usually have a guy help me and I hold the logs up with the bobcat and he bucks them and we will usually buck enough for three cord and then the next day another buddy shows up and the three of use will split load and stack that three cord in a trailer in a day. I agree with the others a conveyor and a splitter with a log lift is a must. 

[jimbarry]

gestapo wanted to see your papers, eh comrade?  how much did it cost you to avoid the firing squad?

Dah! I was given a finger wagging. First time they got me.   I was 8% over on the rears. Almost 10% over on my licensed allowance. What this means though is what I thought I could run with has been diminished by 1/4.

[Lord Far-Quad]

Wow, thank you all for contributing to this post and for the welcome to the forum. Something I have learned from the Canadian forestry industry is that most learning that occurs is informal, i.e. from talking to others, which is why I am reaching out. The other forestry-board that I am involved in (replant.ca, for Canadian reforestation) is as slow as molasses, so it is also nice to have a board with a little life in it!

stavebuyer, that is a very good point regarding automating the tasks as much as possible, and that is ultimately my goal. What you say about bare-minimum start-up expenses also makes sense, as with the warning with respect to not overworking yourself. The only real advantage that I possess in my situation is that I am 26 and in decent physical shape, and so I believe that I can put off investing in the more expensive (but very useful) bits of equipment while I get my feet on the ground and bring some money in. In Canada, a lot of the bush-work is piece-work, and so that's how my brain is wired—I usually pick up production tasks pretty quickly as I want to make as much money as I can. Last winter I was hand-piling about pine 6 trees a day which had an average diameter at breast height of about 50cm, so moving about 42 tons a day in -40ºC weather. Wouldn't recommend, but at least it prepped me for some of the firewood hustle. I do a lot of silviculture work, reforesting cut-blocks mainly, which has some cross-over with logging and I do have some connections that could help me get free wood, although my plan is to have culls trucked and dumped at my property. Thank you for your advice stavebuyer

Ianab, yes, the ability to start small with minimal risk is something that has attracted me to this endeavour (and of course the ability to spend some time outside playing with my husky), and having a couple months off a year allows me to focus on it as a project. Yes, the green wood is something that has come up time and time again in my research, and I think that it will be especially important for my business model given that many of the people who I anticipate I will be selling to want it for ambience/ camping, i.e. they want to burn it immediately. I've had to switch my thinking about this around a little bit, as my original plan was to start my wood venture on Vancouver Island, where it is much more accepted to receive green wood in the spring, and then season it over the summer in preparation for the winter. Ditto on the honest advertising—when people think of firewood in their head, they think about roaring and crackling, not smouldering and frustrating... thanks Ianab

Jimbarry, there's a canuck! Fantastic pictures, I really like your set up, seem's like you've got it all figured out. How long did it take you to get to that scale? Any advice for someone starting out small like myself? I will certainly pace myself as I start up, I've learned that through years of production treeplanting. 

mike_belben, that is a really interesting point about some machines being more worthwhile than the splitter. If I wanted to take the route of not stacking my wood, are there downsides to simply a big pile on the ground in terms of seasoning? I will remember what you said about the repetitive task injury and be careful. 

jmur, your point about the loader is in line with Jimbarry's point about the conveyor. I'm into both, but I won't be able to fit it into the budget as I start up. Again, noted on not overdoing it. Thanks.

hedgerow, getting it to top price and thus top purchaser seems to involve two things where I live: dry wood, and birch. In terms of the latter, I will need to do some digging in terms of sourcing the birch, as I only really know how to get my hands on pine and spruce culls from the cutblocks. Yes, like I was saying to Ianab, I anticipate that most of my clients will be interested in the wood for ambience purposes, and so you're saying that I should set my business up to cater to those customers. As for the conveyor splitter with the log lifter—I want one! But it may have to be a purchase that comes later down the road. Thank you hedgerow. 

[mike_belben]

I guess youve got to test the waters and weigh your market's penalty for green or reward for dry.  Mine mostly doesnt care, just wants it cheap and mostly delivered.  I can remember only 2 who were moisture nazis but dry wood only brought me $10 a facecord extra. 2x more  handling and wait a year for ten bucks?   I had built a firewood kiln but for ten bucks forget it.  There isnt as much trash fuel to run the kiln as you think and before long youre burning good wood to run the kiln.


So if you get a drying premium that warrants extra effort to dry, your fastest air dry will be stacked on pallets out in the direct sun with tin screwed to the top row.  Maybe starting to get there by 7 months or so if the conditions are good.  But thats work.  Piled up outside for a year isnt as good as piled under a hoophouse for a year.. But then you gonna hand load it?  Or buy a bucket loader to load it? Well, that depends on the market demands.  

Firewood is an easy game to get into if you are a logger or sawyer or dirtwork guy who already has all the space and equipment and wood coming in anyway.

  It is much much harder starting just on firewood but then in time your accumulated resources will make transitioning into sawyer or logger or mason, septic installer, land clearing or excavation etc etc easier because youve got some basic iron.  A dumptruck, a loader, a space to setup etc.

[mike_belben]

gestapo wanted to see your papers, eh comrade?  how much did it cost you to avoid the firing squad?

Dah! I was given a finger wagging. First time they got me.   I was 8% over on the rears. Almost 10% over on my licensed allowance. What this means though is what I thought I could run with has been diminished by 1/4.

Ive been put out of service for less, they went easy on you today!

[jimbarry]

How long did it take you to get to that scale? Any advice for someone starting out small like myself?

Started June 2018. I already had the 1 ton with dump body, skidsteer with grapple used for hobby sawmilling. Started out sawing and splitting up scraps off the mill for kindling. That never really took hold, so in September we had an opportunity on a good deal for about 30 cord of crown limbs and small trees (birch and maple). I built a jig for processing the small pieces.



 

We always did crates.


 
From there we bought a couple more logs and I built a large "processor".


 
And then bought the EastonMade 12-22 in Jan 2019. In the fall of 2019 we bought the Hakki Pilki. Been working at it a couple times a week when we we have the time.

Advice? Don't put yourself in debt for a purchase. Work and save to get what you need. I know that birch is about the only hardwood out there for many. Over here a lot of people turn their nose up to it. The thing is the BTU rating of birch is not much different than maple. But it does take a bit longer to dry because of the bark. Air flow is your friend. 

You'll note that in the crates picture above there are 48x48 pallets with 3 rows of split wood. That's when we first started. Three things we learned from doing that. First, it takes a lot of lumber to build a crate to hold a 1/2 cord. Second, the middle row doesn't dry much. Third, 1/2 cord palletized is near 2500 lbs green.  So now we only use smaller pallets, minimal lumber, less weight, better air flow.



 

[mike_belben]

Yeah 3 rows will grow mushrooms in the middle pretty quick too i found out.    How were you unloading at the customers.. Drive 2 vehicles to haul the machine?  

Youre wife is a hard worker!  And nice website btw, i like the vintage pics

[Big_eddy]

My wife and I do about 50 cord a year. Saw, 4 way splitter and dump trailer. Plus a gator and compact tractor.
I cut and pile the blocks around her splitting station, She splits and offloads the splitter into the loader bucket which I dump onto the pile.  We can do a cord every 2 hours, (2x2=4hrs total) working comfortably.

Depending on the size of the logs, cutting is usually faster, so when I get a bit ahead we tag team the splitter. I will bring blocks and unload while she operates. We do not have a log lift - except me - so when we are working larger wood we have to work the splitter together. 

Delivery is another thing. It takes 2 of us 30-45 mins to load a cord into our dump trailer. Then it's a minimum of a hour per delivery taking into account figuring out where to dump..... we normally go together as I like having her spot me while backing but we only count one person in our labour calculations .

Overall, we spend 7+ hours a cord, delivered.

Do NOT see this as a way to make easy money on the side. It isn't. We do it because it gets us outside together, keeps us out of trouble, and it's fun and exercise. Plus we get to meet all kinds of characters along the way. 

A conveyor to off load the splitter directly onto the pile would save us the most time from where we are now.
 

[jimbarry]

Yeah 3 rows will grow mushrooms in the middle pretty quick too i found out.    How were you unloading at the customers.. Drive 2 vehicles to haul the machine?  

Youre wife is a hard worker!  And nice website btw, i like the vintage pics

We load loose and dump loose on the ground.


 

[jimbarry]

My wife and I do about 50 cord a year. Saw, 4 way splitter and dump trailer. Plus a gator and compact tractor.
I cut and pile the blocks around her splitting station, She splits and offloads the splitter into the loader bucket which I dump onto the pile.  We can do a cord every 2 hours, (2x2=4hrs total) working comfortably.

Depending on the size of the logs, cutting is usually faster, so when I get a bit ahead we tag team the splitter. I will bring blocks and unload while she operates. We do not have a log lift - except me - so when we are working larger wood we have to work the splitter together.

Delivery is another thing. It takes 2 of us 30-45 mins to load a cord into our dump trailer. Then it's a minimum of a hour per delivery taking into account figuring out where to dump..... we normally go together as I like having her spot me while backing but we only count one person in our labour calculations .

Overall, we spend 7+ hours a cord, delivered.

Do NOT see this as a way to make easy money on the side. It isn't. We do it because it gets us outside together, keeps us out of trouble, and it's fun and exercise. Plus we get to meet all kinds of characters along the way.

A conveyor to off load the splitter directly onto the pile would save us the most time from where we are now.

You're basically describing what we do here   Can confirm all the same labour numbers.

[mike_belben]

We load loose and dump loose on the ground.

In the picture with the car trailer getting crates loaded.  Maybe thats a customer picking up?

[stavebuyer]

I sold wood as "green" but in early fall buyers got wood that was fairly dry. I didn't stack; the wood went into the loader bucket and got piled on concrete with mafia block walls. All fall and winter it went out faster than I could produce it. It won't dry as fast in the pile as it would cross stacked with plenty of room between rows but the bottom of the pile dried much more than one would expect. I think you could sell seasoned wood from a 2nd year pile if that was a goal.

My experience was that by figuring in handling/delivery etc. I kept more of the pie selling it as a bulk material measured by the loader bucket. Yes I gave a little wood away but it saved handling and stacking. Anytime your on the road your risking DOT and personal injury lawyers. I'd rather play with a saw than fight a Cul-de-Sac turning around with a dump trailer but there is a niche for everyone.

[cutterboy]

Eddy and Jim...you both have great women. They are more than wives, they are partners. Bless them!