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Saw Swedging  

Started by jeff, February 20, 2001, 03:03:30 PM

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Jeff


I cannot believe that as a sawyer I did not include a sawing category before this. To start off...

RON W! A while back I mentioned to you that I read that it was being recommended that new sawyers are not taught to swedge, and you said you didn't. We got side tracked and I never asked you why you don't. Why not? I do.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Wenrich

My bit salesman told me it isn't necessary with the newer teeth.  It is impossible to swage a chromed tooth.  It's hard enough just to hand file it.  So, when they started to make chromed teeth, they must have changed the design somewhat so that you get good side clearance all the way back through the tooth.  I haven't had any problems.

Another factor to consider is that I get paid on production.  I find that short teeth, no matter how well swaged, do not hold an edge as good as long teeth.  That means saw feed has to be decreased or your saw will lay over.  Slower feed means more cost/Mbf of production.  Much better to lose $10 in bits than $100 in production.  That's money I put into the mill owner's pocket.

If I was running aspen all day, I wouldn't even worry about sharpening them.  :D  My species of late has been white oak, ash, cherry, hard maple, soft maple and hickory.  
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeff

I use just regular bits, and I can swedge faster then I can change the bits. If I hit some frozen mud or something that simply peens the corners, I can save newer bits and save not only down time but the cost of the bits too. Besides sawing aspen and A properly tuned saw with sufficient power, my feed rate changes very little with the shorter teeth.

And hey, I don't just saw aspen, I saw tough stuff too. Like basswood.

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Jeff

Just want you to know, if you were sawing aspen, I would still kick your *** in production!

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Wenrich

I heard you even cut cottonwood.:D

My biggest problem is nails.  That doesn't knock off the corners, that pretty well messes up the teeth.  I run chrome in the winter, and they can't be swaged.

My solution to nails when running regular bits is to toss the busted ones and put in a used one.  Downtime due to nails is about 40 hrs/year.

I don't only saw for quantity, I saw for quality.  Current cuttings may call for 5/4 F1F & better, 4/4 1 & 2 Com., and bridge timbers, or some combination like that.  Besides, I don't have a resaw.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeff

When it comes to nail damage, I too, toss the bits. I don't use chromes.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Don P

As you guys can tell by now I'm new to the logging/forestry and sawing/drying end of playing with wood. My experience starts when the truck pulls up in the yard and I whip out my hammer. So this sawmill follows me home one day and she lets me keep it. Swedging for me has been a bang until frustrated event. I would love a good lesson complete with pictures and arrows and a description on the back telling what each one was to be used for. Then show me how to sharpen,and when to toss them.The saw doc said I should change them at least occasionally:D.
 As for nails I've sawed 2 walnuts and hit nails both times. The second tree the homeowner assured me he had lived there 25 yrs and had never put a nail in the tree. I hit a cluster of 5 about 30 rings in. 1 broken shank and 8 teeth. How much does this damage the saw?

Ron Wenrich

Saw damage occurs when you do something that can alter the metal in some fashion.  This can be from too much heat.  

What happens when you hit a nail is you get a momentary back force somewhere in your saw.  Your saw is spinning in one direction, then it stops while still going forward.  Sometimes that screws up a saw, usually not.  

When a saw starts to heat up with regularity, it may need hammered.  It is no longer standing straight, but laying out a little, which opens up the face of the saw.  

When you change to new shanks, the saw should be hammered.  Putting only 1 or 2 new ones in shouldn't hurt the saw.

To swage a tooth, you should take the curved part in the center of the tooth, and hit the swage one rap with a couple pound hammer.  Then turn to the flat part of the swage and hit again.

What the swage does is push steel from one area to another, preferably out.  The flat part squares off the tooth.  If you do the corners, like may guys do, you will get thin corners that will break off easily, causing your saw to cut off line.

If you swage too hard to one side, the saw will lead that way.  It is important to make sure that the swage isn't pulled back too far, but centered on the tooth and in the slot.

Sharpening a saw can be an art form.  Very few people can hand file a saw.  Most are using some sort of sharpening machine.  Hand filing will make a saw sharper than most machines.  

To hand file, you must keep the same angle on the tooth.  I use an 8" mill bastard file.  It only cuts in one direction.  I usually only take 4-6 swipes on each tooth, unless it is damaged.  You can see when it is sharp, by looking at the edge of the tooth.

The tooth must be straight across.  Any angle will cause the saw to lead.  I sometimes use that to straighten a saw out.  If it is leading in or out, I will adjust the angle of the tooth slightly.

There is a guide made for hand files.  I have one, and use it on occassions, when I'm having a problem that is hard to figure out.  I'm not sure of the cost anymore, but saws cut great after using them.

I ditch my teeth when I start to file into the gullet area of the tooth.  Some guys go further, and that's okay, depending on what you are cutting.  In frozen timber, short teeth work better.

I've hit hammer heads, scrap ir,railroad spikes, lag bolts,  all types of nails, rocks, and insulators.  The worst took off 14 teeth and bent 30 others.  Makes a good sign.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeff

Golf ball, horseshoe, woodduck eggs, skilsaw blade, crosscut saw blade hung from a nail grown in length wise, arrowheads, length of 3/8 welded chain, length of pipe, 6 inch rock grown in the base of a beech tree( that saw became a slasher blade),saw shank (they pull on one rev and you hit it on the next!) are a few of the things I can think of off hand I have hit.  
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Jeff

Hey tick, be proud, I sawed red oak today. I can't get 20 inch boards on my saw. The verticle gets in the way. I can dump one blade below the cut, and the other teo above, but I can only clear 17. I could get 20 if it was not for the edger.

20 inch boards are just eye candy for the sawyer anyway. Kinda neat to see em lining up the green chain though.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Wenrich

I once went to a cut up plant to see their operations.  All those 20inch boards are cut down to between 2 and 4 inch strips to be glued together.  Really bummed me out, but its their wood after they buy it.

Besides, 20 inch boards really tick off the stackers.:D

The width on my vertical edger is 22 inches.  I'm only running 2 saws.

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeff

Swedging
I would think swedging would be a very important skill to someone like Don. Ron, you and I take bits for granted. If your Don, A buck a bit can get expensive. He isn't into production, but maintaining his saw with as little expense as possible.

Don, I will try at some point to do a little feature for folks like you on swedging, and try too take some photos of the process. The way Ron Describes the process, is very different then the way I do it. It is not an easy thing to learn. And my guess, an Impossible thing to teach in this medium. But I am willing to give it a try.

I have been sawing for well over 20 years, and only got my swedging technique down to a science in the last 10. I tries early on but gave up in frustration. But I got some one on one help from an old timer, and was able to develop the skill.

Sharpening
I myself, use a mechanical grinder, and touch up with a file. Ron is right, the Mechanical grinder does not get as sharp, but there is a trick to that that negates that flaw.

The problem with a circular grind is the burr that is formed as the tip is sharpened. The tip rolls up and over the top almost an imperceptible amount. If you start immediately to saw, that roll breaks off, causing the saw to be ("less sharp").

  What I do to remedy that, is to take a small piece of hardwood and rub the top of the tooth from the back to front. This breaks the burr off in the opposite direction leaving a keener edge. This is a fast process. I just give the saw a spin backwards, holding the hunk of wood tightly against the top of the teeth. You now have a sharp saw that is mechanically sharpened, so the angle on the tooth is perfect, as long as your grinder is adjusted properly, and your stone is dressed correctly.

Putting lead into the saw by sharpening your bits at an angle, is technically the wrong way to tune a saw. But, professionally, Ron and I both do it.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Don P

I,ve been using a Andrus(sp?) round file type grinder with some sucess, have also experimented with a dremel moto tool (very sharp hollow grind but not very long lived) and a hand file. The hand file is quickest for me, but like my chainsaw hand filing I have to go back to the machine after about 2 times to correct angles.
I dress the sides after swaging because I send a fair amount of tooth wider than I want in my frailing before the shape looks right(if that made any sense).
The wire edge at the top I've been taking off with the file.The tooth is often slightly below the plate across the top,been filing that when running file across top of tooth to remove burr is this correct? Are my shanks being pounded lower into the plate or am I still just breaking in the blade?
 I've been hammered once (ok, the blades only been hammered once). While sawing Locust it dished out and got a blue spot (is this what ya'll are calling laying over?).We've decided until there's more power to only slab locust into poles and beams. When are the shanks worn out? I would guess I,m still under 100MBF.
 I've found when I have to back off on the feed alot of dust falls out along the blade and the cut wanders (I assume its heating the blade).

Ron Wenrich

I replace my shanks about once a year, and I do it in the fall.  Frozen wood is finer than regular wood, and worn shanks can be a problem.  Usually you are looking at millions of feet of lumber.

One thing to remember is that the shanks can also be filed.  It will help to prevent spillage.

Side dressing on the teeth is fine, as long as you don't take more off of one side than the other.

Black locust is a really hard wood to saw.  But, unless you are cutting really big logs, I'd say your problem is more on HP than on saw problems.  Or it could be a slight lead problem.

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeff

Birthday Flashback!! The very first thread on Sawmills and Milling Forum!
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

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