Buzz's dilema: yes or no to EMS

[Buzz-sawyer]

It is sad to think this way, but... suppose two responders work an incident, and the patient decides to sue.  One responder is 22 years old, lives in a trailer, doesn't have much by way of assets.  The other is older, owns his own business, autos, machinery, land.  Guess who the lawyer is going to go after! >:(  I admit I don't have an answer, other than to look into the cost of some kind of malpractice insurance for first responders.  

Faron......that is EXACTLY the situation.....during the more frequent litigation that lawyers are seeking out........they are seeking out vicitims of all sorts.....literally as ambulance chasers......but the target NOW is the fire department and rescue.........
Soon I think if this trend continues volunteer departments will dissapear...leaving a void that will probablybefilled by Federal employees......who will be sue proof????

[ScottAR]

There is a way to be very sue "resistant".   Do a search on limited partnerships and read awhile...  Basicly you can make a corp out of your business and use a limited partnership where as you are the controling partner.  Technically, you own less than the kid in the trailer... (nothing)  Talk to an asset protection attorney about this... 

[bcraw98]

Buzz,

I'm an ECA (National Registry First Responder) here in Texas and I had some of the same concerns as you. I'm not a Lawyer, so what I'm going to say is just what I believe. I believe that as long as I'm not negligent that I will be fine. I believe that as long as I treat the patient like a Family member that I will be fine. I believe that a Jury of my Peers will not find me guilty as long as I stay within my scope of practice and do my best.

My VFD is very active in First Responding (2002 Texas Department of Health First Responders of the Year) and we haven't yet had any sort of problem from Family members. Some calls leave me shaking my head in confusion as to why we were called, some could be better handled by Family and loading the patient in a personal vehicle, and a few leave me glad that I was able to be there and help.

Would I do it over again? YUP, in a heartbeat

ASS. CHIEF bcraw  :D  :D

[RichlandSawyer]

Buzz i just had to weigh in on this one, i'm not trying to hurt anyones feelings but its places like this and threads like this that perpetuate the fear. its speculation. Buzz call your states attorney general and find out exactly how many people have been sued and the circumstances behind the cases i'm sure you will find that there are very few and the person was grossly negligent.Also information can be obtained from your state fire marshal (when he starts in the speech about what could happen tell him you've already heard it and you want cold hard facts) . I am sure you will be pleasantly suprised at what you find out.

True there are a lot of suit happy people out there but there are a lot of good honest people to.

Also just because someone files a lawsuit doesnt mean your guilty of anything!
Stupid people file suit everday but they never go anywhere, granted you have the time and trouble of dealing with it but if you are acting responsibly you have nothing to fear. millions of dollars for a spilled cup of coffee? its the exception not the rule
Buzz if you dont get the training and you dont do what you can you can get sued for not helping!

If we are all gonna walk around scared of other peoples shadows then you may as well go get the scatter gun and check out now!!!!!

So before you make a decision that could prevent someone from getting the help they need please get the facts. we need all the good people we can find.

God Bless you sir and keep up the good fight
RichlandSawyer

[Kirk_Allen]

Don,
Your concerns are understood and as you saw in our class in FL the key is KNOWING your job and the standard that outlines the requirements of that job.

For those that "think" operating within your training puts you in the clear I will say in most cases that has "been" the norm but times have changed.

Once you have the certification you are going to be held accountable to the standard, not the training you received.

For example.  100% of the departments we have trained had no idea what NFPA 1410 was. They all knew what NFPA 1403 was.  1403 address's live fire training in acquired structures.  1410 is for on scene emergency response.  1403 outlines GPM flows of 95 gpm for that training guideline. 1410 outlines 300 gpm as the minimum for the on scene situation.  (section 4 for those interested.  That is MORE THAN THREE TIMES THE REQUIRED FLOW RATE than what we train with in 1403.  MAJOR conflict yet if we are only meeting the lower standard on an actual fire call and and something goes south it is the 1410 standard we are accountable to, thus we are open for negligence.  Lack of knowledge of the standards was a contributing factor to a NY Training Chief being convicted and sentenced to jail for a death of a fire fighter.    

You could have been operating to the exact level of your training but if you were not meeting the minimum level outlined in the standard then you butt is open for a lawyer to start chewing.  It kind of falls into the line of ignorance of the law is no excuse.  Not being properly trained may not be your fault but once you carry a license or certificate, the buck stops with you because you are SUPPOSED to know the standard since you have the certificate.

So, what to do.  GO FOR IT!  The key is that in the process of getting your certification make sure you KNOW exactly what standard your being held to in the event something goes south. By knowing the rules you can play!  

Don't ever be fooled into thinking we cant out smart the lawyers.  Know the rules they play by and make sure you always do more than the minimum.  I have heard lawyers manipulate standards to make people look real bad in the eyes of the jury, even though the standards were met.

Example:
Lawyer (L): Were you flowing xx amounts of water on the fire the night Suzie was killed
Firefighter (FF): Yes
L: Says Who
FF: We were meeting the standard in our training
L: So you were flowing xx amount
FF: yes
L: what is the standard
FF: XX amount
L: would you please read what the standard says (hands him the standard)
FF: SHALL flow a minimum of XX amount of water
L:  Minimum?, That would be the lowest level possible to meet the requirement, correct?
FF: Yes
L: Do you have kids
FF): Yes
L: What kind of grades do you want them to get
FF: A's - (Very few parents don't want there kids to get A's in school)
L: So you would agree you want them to be above the norm or even excel?
FF: OF Course
L: Minimums don't cut it when it comes to our kids does it?
FF: No, I want them to do more than the minimum
L: So can you please explain to this jury and the family of the little girl killed in the fire why you, the training officer, agreed that minimums are not acceptable for your kids but its supposed to be acceptable for you to only meet the minimum level of performance to the standard?

(And of course before you can even think of answering because your so mad he fires off another question)

L: "Minimums are fine for you but not our kids"  Is that what you really want us to believe? Had you placed the same level of performance on yourself that you do on your kids we may not even be here, isn't that right?

KNOW THE STANDARDS but be prepared to be hammered if your only meeting the minimum requirements.  

Don, you should have nothing to worry about provided you learn the rules and always abide by them.  Don't think that just because the guy teaching is labeled instructor that he knows what he is doing or what the rules are.  You saw first hand how a LARGE full time department had NO CLUE of the standards they would be held to if a lawyer decided to jump in.  

SAYS WHO and WITH WHAT PROOF! Learn that phrase and you will be amazed how many folks "teach" and have no clue of where to confirm the very teaching they are giving.  

I know you Don and I am confident that one day, with you conviction to doing things right, you will be the one making sure all those new kids coming up in the department are trained, trained right, and KNOW the standards that they are accountable to, page and paragraph.  

[Kirk_Allen]

More and more we are seeing lawsuits with the fire service.  Its generally not the homeowner or the person in the accident doing the suing.  Its the insurance company.

Currently there are 13 Ohio volenteer firefighters being sued by State Farm insurance for neglagence.  Not just the department!  INDIVIDUALS were named in the suite.

A NY training office convicted for not knowing and not following the standards in a TRAINING fire. The initial charge was Murder and it was dropped to manslaughter.  I beleive he got 4 years but it may have been more. 

I refuse to live in fear of lawsuits and I will continue to teach departments all over the country.  The Key is KNOWING the rules and making sure you are doing above the minimums. 

There are several lawsuits right now in Chicago dealing with the deaths of 7 people in the County Building fire two years ago and I have been activly involved in many aspects of that situation and I assure you, KNOW THE STANDARDS your going to be held to and do more than the minimum when meeting those standars.

Big business are the ones driving most of the suites we have seen.  Its not the small time ma and pa that are going after us in this business.  They are targeting legligence based on your knowledge, or lack of the standards that apply to you certification.

Did I say, KNOW THE STANDARDS!

If the lawyers can give the jury the impression you dont know your job or are not meeting an "acceptable" level of performance to the standard they can, and are winning.  We must fight back with Knowledge!  Its time we eat the lawyers lunch for a change.

Now with that, there are many cases where ignorance was the chosen path of departments and they deserve what they get.  I have been to hundreds of departments over the years where Monday night training was a bunch of card tables and a couple cases of beer.  Those days are over and if that is the norm for your department, well like Jenny said, RUN FOREST, RUN !

[BW_Williams]

Buzz, have you talked to your Chief about this?  If no support is there how about the State Fireman's Association?  We had to drop running aid calls due to lack of people, but we still get called out to assist, mostly extrication.  Stay safe, BWW

[Furby]

Buzz, just sign everything you own over to your kids. Then your only worry would be if you trust them enough to take care of you! ;)

I dont talk alot about my job,

Yeah sure, not a lot, but enough! :D
I still have images burned in my brain from the stories told at the first piggy roast!

[Faron]

If you are sued. and have done everything right, you still have to pay to defend yourself.   In my 15 years I was cussed out, puked on, had some of my men held at gunpoint once, but never sued.  But you know, that was before you saw lawyers advertising for clients willing to sue for every imaginable ailment and problem.  There are people wiling to believe that if anything bad happens to them, SOMEONE must be to blame.

[Kevin_H.]

Sorry about that furby, When ya see stuff like that all the time, ya get a little more use to it.  ;)

[Kirk_Allen]

Faron you are absolutly right.  After several fire departments and firefighters being sued, which in some cases was the right thing, the lawyers of big insurance companies are pouncing on the one thing every volenteer department in the country faces, and that is insuficient funding to be properly trained and educated.

I am by no means saying these departments cant do their job.  They do it and do it well but only within the confines of their funding limitations to better and more advanced training.  

When we, the fire service get sued its normally the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) standards that are used as the basis.  NFPA is a FOR PROFIT orginazation.  Its not like they are some neutral party.  They make money on publication of their standards.  Any of you guys that are FF here have a copy of the NFPA standards in your department?  Most dont because they are so expensive.  

We tried to get copies of critical standards for our department at the library and guess what, the only two libraries that had copies were the downtown library in Chicago (4 hrs away) and the one in Springfield (2 hrs away) our Capital.  What is worse, both places the copies were NOT CURRENT.  

I think EVERY department should have a set of the standards becuase the last thing you want to tell some nosey attorney is that your deparmtent doesnt have a set.

Don, now that we have scared the daylights out of you, PLEASE continue on with your training.  All it takes for the evil forces in this world to take over is for a few good men to do nothing.  Your contribution will be what you make of it.  I know you and you are not going to expose youself by doing something stupid our out of the guidlines of the standards.  Just learn the standards and always strive to go beyond the minimums.  

[sawguy21]

I am really impressed by the number of emergency personnel on this forum. Your work is vital and I admire your dedication to a very tough job. I have had fiirst aid training and at one time was a relief tow truck driver. The worst was helping separate the wrecks so the victims could be removed.
We were taught that the samaritan law covered our butts as long as we stayed within the scope of our training and used approved methods. We were not required by law to help if we did not feel capable but, once started, were required to continue until medical help arrived.
There was a lawsuit where the heart attack victim sued because his ribs were broken during CPR. The judge said" You are standing here aren't you? Case dismissed"
Buzz, follow your convictions. We are proud of you.

[bcraw98]

Kirk,

My deparment is all volunteer and we are trying very hard to upgrade our training and comply with all that is asked, but we just don't have the manpower, funding, time, resources............Dadgumit we're volunteers with full time jobs and Families!! I plead ignorant to many standards which is a dangerous thing. What standards do you recommend that a VFD be most up to date on and comply with in order to protect it and it's members? We implement what we learn from outside training to the best of our abilities, but on scene, we still wind up having to do the best we can with the resources available........any help or direction you could steer us would be appreciated. Flow 300gpm uninterupted for more than several minutes out in the country at a structure fire with available resources in our area    !!! No can do.  DanG, I hope I don't hear 'Run Forest Run'

Note: due to the extreme drought conditions we have been facing and the subsequent wildfires our fiscal budget for fuel and equipment maintenance has been exhausted and we still have 8 months to go. It's gonna be a lean year.

While typing I see you posted on the subject. What if you strive to meet minimums, but currently can't in some areas?

Barry

[Kirk_Allen]

bcraw98 I hear every word your saying and feel your pain.  Your not alone, trust me. 

The list of standards we are "supposed" to meet is overwhelming but over the years I have found the following to be of critical importance both from a training and knowing it standpoint as well as liability awareness.

NFPA 1720: Standard for the Organization and Deployment of Fire Suppression Operations, Emergency Medical Operations and Special Operations to the Public by Volunteer Fire Departments

NFPA 1000: Standard for Fire Service Professional Qualifications Accreditation and Certification Systems.

NFPA 1001: Standard for Fire Fighter Professional Qualifications

NFPA 1002: Standard for Fire Apparatus Driver/Operator Professional Qualifications

NFPA 1410: Standard on Training for Initial Emergency Scene Operations 

NFPA 1403: Standard on Live Fire Training Evolutions

NFPA 1500: Standard on Fire Department Occupational Safety and Health Program

NFPA 1521: Standard for Fire Department Safety Officer

NFPA 1561: Standard on Emergency Services Incident Management System

NFPA 1901: Standard for Automotive Fire Apparatus

Knowing that most VOL departments respond to the ever so common chimney fire, did you know about this one?
NFPA 211: Standard for Chimneys, Fireplaces, Vents, and Solid Fuel-Burning Appliance

You can go to this site and see the overwhelming list of codes, of which some are supposed to be viewable on-line but conveniently they rarely are.
NFPA Codes

There are just to many to list and the ones I listed are not meant to be the most important or least.  They are just a sampling of some very important standards in my opinion that effect our day to day operations. 


Now in regard to the 300 gpm issue.  DON'T read into the standard something that is not there.  The 1410 standard outlines a minimum fire flow of 300 gpm for the initial attack.  100 gpm minimum on the primary attack line and 200-gpm minimum on the back up line. It DOES NOT outline a time frame you have to sustain that flow rate.  This standard deals with the actual on scene response and is not to be confused with Rural operations of water supply relating to an ISO rating. Two different creatures entirely. 


As far as not being able to meet the minimums its best to get legal advice on the way to document that.  In my case, our department needs work in EVERY aspect and we are working on documenting the situation and outlining the plan to correct it.  With that, we will still respond and do our best but we now realize our limitations and know when to cross the line and when not to. 

The 2 in 2 out issue for example.  Most VOL departments don't meet this yet we can still make entry in a KNOWN life safety/rescue situation.  If we don't KNOW there is someone to rescue the rule (LAW IN TEXAS) mandates you don't go in without 2 fully geared personnel ready outside.

That standard was brought on from OSHA and the IAFF and was done in hopes of establishing more justification for manpower.  Great >:(  Now we have a new rule on the books we have to meet and no funding to meet it.  Another bureaucratic move that failed miserably. 

If you read the Bret Tarver (sp) incident from Phoenix you will see that it took, if I recall correctly, 12+ FF to pull him out.  2 in 2 out sounds great but in reality, 2 people trying to pull out a 250lb fire fighter wearing 50+lbs of gear is not simplest thing in the world to do, especially in the middle of a fire fight.

The new Editor of Fire Engineering Magazine, Chief Halton, is a very close personal friend and former Operations Chief from Albuquerque, NM.  He works hand in hand with Brunacini on many issues and the 2 in 2 out is one of those hot buttons that sounds great on paper but in reality it should be more like 2 in 8 out minimum. For those that don't know Chief Brunacini, he was the person responsible for establishing the Incident Command System that most departments in the country now follow.  Although some large East Coast departments don't follow that system (East Coast West Coast rivalry ;D) all agree that Chief Brunacini has probably done more toward making our jobs safer and more efficient than any other single person in the last 20 years. 

Having had Chief Brunacini in one of my class's I can also tell you he is the most genuine person you can meet and truly cares about the safety of all of us. If you ever go to one of the big fire shows (FDIC, Firehouse, Fire Rescue) just look for the 65 year old short guy in the Haywain shirt  ;D


   

[Buzz-sawyer]

I don't live my life in a position , what if, or looking over my shoulder for what heavy thing big brother is gonna lay on me.................that truly was not my intent in this post,

Rather, that it pisses me off that my family and I could be easily placed into serious aggravation and loss as a consequence of trying to help, in a deeper and more pragmatic way.
And I am considering finding another way to serve the community....BUT I love being a firefighter as it is!!
I find it interesting and enjoyable......
I have appeared in court many times and in many circumstances, and some times do not enjoy it, it can be a life draining situation to defend yourself regardless of the accusation..............you can only understand what I just said, if you have ever had to do it under dire circumstances........
Why do it???.......well I do care, and I probably will press on, through mucho more training certifications and licenses................

[bull]

buzz- You shouldn't have to be more than a fire fighter..... What happens when there is a fire and everyone is out on an EMS run.....  Its all part of the new Fulltime fire dept. Movement make the run number show that the dept. is busier and they need more people,make it harder for the average Joe to jump in and help !! So we can spend the all mighty dolloar. We have one of the best Fire Depts. around and I was a regular member for 7 years on Company A and then the chief retired and all the new changes started More training hours required and only on Wednesday nights from 7pm on..    I worked 4-12 as a police officer/ I also think the blue uniform clashed w/ the red..... but thats another story..... We know have a fulltime chief,4 fulltimers  3 ff/emt 1ff/ paramedic all on 1st watch "day shift" great guys and all but they spend most of the day chasing there rearends.
Our trucks are adding more and more mileage just from riding around. and very little mileage for actual run times.
Our budget has double in 5 years and best of all we have a brand new 3.7 million dollar station for a town of 8000..   equipment line up   E1,E2,E3,L1,Heavey rescue E5, F1,F2.F3,Squad 1, Car1 , Gator 1, and  Marine 1 I think I forgot something but I think we got enough truck for a dept w/ 5 full timers and 30 callmen..... Oh we just got a new 110' ladder "Quint"..... $700,000.00  Whole lot og $$$$$$   oldest front line truck E5 76 Mack 1000 gal pumper