My Eclassic 2300 leaking

[ecrane99]

Hi All,   Hope everyone is converting wood into heat.  Unfortunately my stove in not doing well. Over the past month I have noticed my water level dropping an inch per week.  Today I decided to shut her down , clean and inspect.
I discovered a water leak just under the left air channel.  I notified my dealer and they have put a call into CB.  My stove was one of the first eclassic stoves (2006). 



 
http://youtu.be/ZxzPLvtyr2w

[stumper]

Dang.  We seem to have had the same problems and the area above the leak looks just like mine. 

I hope this is not coming my way.

Keep us posted.

[beenthere]

Sorry to see that.
For the comment

Today I decided to shut her down , clean and inspect.

, it sure looks pretty warm in there.   ;)

Does it appear to be a place that has a lot of metal fatigue from expansion/contraction?

I've always had a concern with my boiler, being surrounded by a water jacket around the fire, but no water at the ends (smoke stack on backside, door on frontside. Expansion/contraction of steel is a big concern for the many years it has been running.

[martyinmi]

I think all of us gasser owners will be experiencing what you are going through.
I just measured the ledge (where my door seals) on mine and after only 2 years the quarter inch thick (.250) metal has eroded away 40 thousands down to .210.
At that rate I'll be lucky to get 10 years out of mine.

I just spoke to probably the smartest heating expert I've ever met on Sunday.
He told me that EVERY gasser that has a force fed draft is doomed for early failure (less that 10 years).
He maintains that life expectancy can at least be doubled by going with a negative pressure draft (draft inducer) as opposed to being force fed. The Garn gasser has an inducer and there are Garn boilers that have been in use for more than 20+ years.
I am going to convert mine over this summer. A draft inducer the size that I'll need will be around $300.00.
That is a lot cheaper than a 11k boiler replacement!

[thecfarm]

That is too bad,  :(  Good luck with the fix.

[beenthere]

Maybe there is a way to add some sacrificial steel in front of the places that are eating away.

[stumper]

The cracks on my side air chamber seem worse in at the second air hole from the door.  Also the Left side is worse then the right.  That appears to be where your leak is.

What does the back of your boiler look like?  The cracks I have in the back air chamber are even worse then the ones on the side. 

Did you notice any change in performance?  Increase in creosote?  Anything beyond the water level drop?

When do you expect word from Central Boiler?

[doctorb]

ecrane99-

Sorry to hear/see your leak.  I noticed the "shelf" above your air hole chamber.  My e2300 was built in 2009, and they changed that design by then.  I wonder if the design change was prompted by leaks such as yours.  We all may await this fate.  I was concerned prior to your post, because others have mentioned this before.  More concerned now.

martyinmi-

Did your knowledgable guy tell you why the forced air from above the coal bed was bad, and why the drawn air from below the coal bed was OK, for gassifier stoves?

[Logging logginglogging]

Are you bottem heat bricks removed as well? I still have mine in that spot, just the ones from the sides are missing. Are supose to remove them all?

[southernilfarm]

Now I'm back to decision making process.  Was convinced to get a gasser - EClassic from Central Boiler.  Now considering going with the proven Classic design.  Crap....decisions decisions....

[AsaG]

Now I'm back to decision making process.  Was convinced to get a gasser - EClassic from Central Boiler.  Now considering going with the proven Classic design.  Crap....decisions decisions....

I've had both a 6048 and an E-2400.  My Classic was nearly bullet proof and I've had some unexpected issues arise with the 2400.  On the flip side, I know one person who had a Classic with a problematic water jacket and several controller failures who went with an E-1450 and couldn't be happier.  My advice is to remind yourself that almost no one brags up a unit with no issues and not to let a problem you read about scare you too seriously.  I found this forum looking for others who suffered the same failure my 2400 had.  Also, worthy of mentioning, the design of the current 2400 is quite a bit different than the OP's 2300.  Unfortunately, we are major part of CB's R&D and units are updated as data (and failures) come in.  The 2400 you would buy today isn't the same as the 2400 I bought in 2010.  In fact, the ductwork that gave me grief has been removed entirely from the newer units. 

As an aside, just about like you, I'm in the midst of making a decision myself.  In my case, the decision is between a 6072 and an E-3200.  martyinmi's post concerning positive versus negative draft has my curiosity about the longevity of gassers piqued and I would really like to learn more.  I've checked metal thickness in the area he mentioned and came back with 0.252 after nearly three full years (summer for DHW) of use.  The question I have is why mine is aging so differently than his.  Probably something I'll never learn but it's good to know what others have/are experiencing and what I need to keep an eye on.  I know I'll have to do something since the 2400 is sold and is scheduled to be relocated to it's new home once the weather breaks.  I'm nearly certain it will be a 3200 but, just like you the jury is still out.  I'll just repeat what you said..."Decisions, decisions, decisions". 

[Logging logginglogging]

I agree, I found this forum when i was having problems too.....
Does everyone remove the bricks on the bottom of the E 23oo too? mine only has the side ones removed

[Logging logginglogging]

Hi All,   Hope everyone is converting wood into heat.  Unfortunately my stove in not doing well. Over the past month I have noticed my water level dropping an inch per week.  Today I decided to shut her down , clean and inspect.
I discovered a water leak just under the left air channel.  I notified my dealer and they have put a call into CB.  My stove was one of the first eclassic stoves (2006). 



 
http://youtu.be/ZxzPLvtyr2w

So what are you gonna do? warentee? new stove? Repair?

[stumper]

There are absolutely challenges with a gassification design.  I do not seem big differences in the method of forcing combustion air into the chamber, be it blow or sucked.  The challenge is not and will remain that temperature differential between the cold air and the hot combustion gasses.  The gassification process forces cold air into hot gasses to add the extra oxygen needed to complete the combustion.  Surprise!!! a temperature differential of 1,000+ degrees accross a 1/4 inch of steel causes internal stresses and eventually cracks.  Add in erosion from combustion gasses and the problem compounds.  Once the boiler reaches temp then the cold outside air is stopped and the temp of the peice goes up to something approaching combustion temp, sit at that temp slowly cooling till the next burn cycle.

The old style boiler could avoid this issue by introducting the air in a location away from the point of combustion. 

In the case in question it is the primary air induction channel that is cracking and this stress transfering to the water jacket, not the secondary air channel but the principle remains the same.  The designer needed to introduce the oxygen as close to the combustion as possible to acheive complete burning of the wood little bit of wood that is burning.  Those of us with Eclassics have all seem first hand that it is only the wood toward the bottom that burns.  I know I have personally seen it many time that I will load the boiler up, leave it for an extended time but not a full cycle and come back to have the wood on top only smoked not burnt. 

Those of us "customers" doing the R&D for the company have identified a signifacent number of problems and a quick review of the new eclssic reveals some solutions to a lot of these issues.  It appears that air is now introduced in three stages and that a portion of the air is pre-heated before introduction.  Further they made the air charge tube on the bottom a wear item that appears to be easily replaced.

It will be interesting to see what the company does, and if this is a preveiw for what is to come for the rest of us.

[doctorb]

Stumper - well thought out, but I have one question...

While you are correct about the differential between the outside air brought into the firebox and the temps in the firebox, the complete combustion of the particulate mattter, and the highest temps, take place in the reaction chamber below the coal bed where more air is forced in.  Yet, I have not seen an example of a leak occurring in this area.  Have you heard of a failure in this area, besides replacing the fusion chamber itself, which has no water ruinning through it? the failures seem to take place up in the air intake holes in the firebox walls, where the temps are high for sure, but are they in that 1000 deg range there?  We all have cracks in the air chamber walls, but relatively few of us have cracks in the wall of the water jacket. 

I would add that when the air chambers get creosote in them, and then the fire is hot enough to ignite and clear those channels, that the fire is extremely hot at the entrance to the air hole.  I have seen this many times when I burn with a hot, low fire and the fans running to help clear the air portals.  I had not considered that this same expansion / contraction of steel would also be occurring on the water jacket side as well.  Certainly ecrane99's video would indicate that it does.

[stumper]

Few of us have had cracks in the water jacket yet, but will we be developing them after 6 to 7 or even 8 years of opperation?  I sure hope not but my crystal ball is a bit cloudy right now.

If you look at the new design you will see the air inlet holes are different.  On mine and ecrane99's the holes are drilled in and then that peice is welded to the jacket.  On that design as the air chamber expands and contracts till a crack forms.  The crack expands until it reaches the weld to the water jacket, and I suspect in Ecrane99's case through the water jacket.  The new ones the there is a channel cut and and the weld is not complete accross the bottom (may be on the top but I can not tel from the pictures).

The water jacket is going to expand and contract much less as the water on one side is relatively constant.  The items that I have seen cracking, warping and in general going bad were not water cooled (main door, reaction chamber door, reaction chamber,air inlet tubes, ect...).  This leaves me to question will those cracks migrate into the water jacket?  For most of the parts the answer is a clear no because there solid connection from the part to the jacket.  However, the old style air inlet tube is welded solid so the cracks could migrate through the weld.

[ecrane99]

Thanks for all the comments.   I have been working with my dealer who is in contact with CB.  CB wants to inspect the stove and then determine a solution/repair which may require shipping the unit.   I have built a structure next to my stove to protect the area from rain/snow.  I worry that if the stove needs to ship out on a truck, it will raise my neighbors eyebrows.  I would prefer to move it at night.   Most of them have no idea that I'm burning wood as the unit is tucked out of sight. 

Here is some feed back on your questions:

Q) Does it appear to be a place that has a lot of metal fatigue from expansion/contraction?

A) Yes.  That area is the hottest (center of stove, next to fusion chamber)



Q) What does the back of your boiler look like?  The cracks I have in the back air chamber are even worse then the ones on the side. 

A) The back is in good shape.  No cracking. 


Q) Did you notice any change in performance?  Increase in creosote?  Anything beyond the water level drop?

A) Yes,  I noticed less gassification.   The burn cycle took much longer to complete.  Same amount of creosote. I am using premium dry oak wood.




Q) When do you expect word from Central Boiler?

A) My Dealer says CB wants to inspect to determine whether a repair can be done. I won't know much for a week or so.



Q) Are you bottem heat bricks removed as well? I still have mine in that spot, just the ones from the sides are missing. Are supose to remove them all?

A) The only Bricks in place are on the floor / bottom.  All side bricks were removed per CB recommendation.

[martyinmi]

ecrane99-

martyinmi-

Did your knowledgable guy tell you why the forced air from above the coal bed was bad, and why the drawn air from below the coal bed was OK, for gassifier stoves?

I guess I don't quite understand the second part of your question, but  I'll attempt the first part.
1) A negative pressure draft (his term, not mine) makes for less expansion and contraction in the primary burn chamber as it will not burn as hot. Secondary burn temperatures remain the same. This means less violent cycling (expansion and contraction) of the metal in the primary burn chamber which is the vicinity where they typically rot out. .
2) A positive pressure system tends to force the condensation/creosote into any nook or cranny, pin hole in a weld, or any other imperfection that might exist in the metal which lends itself to accelerated corrosion every time the unit cycles. A similar event can take place on a diesel engine sleeve under the right circumstances. I think it's called cavitation, and once it starts, it's nearly impossible to stop.
3) Loading doors and especially their seals will not acquire as much creosote, nor do they get as hot.

Air is still introduced into the burn chambers in the same location, but it is pulled in as opposed to being forced in.

A negative pressure draft via a draft inducer also appears to be the trend in the indoor European gassers as well as the modern pellet stoves.
The pellet stove I watched run this past weekend was a Bio Win 260. It employs a draft inducer as well and it is considered a variable output boiler with outputs between 28000 and 90000 btu's. It is a very impressive machine to say the least. Because it has variable output, it can feasibly run 100% of the time, which means there are very few cycles, which in turn will prolong the life of the boiler as well as reduce emissions.

An OWB with a draft inducer does require a bit more maintenance that than a force fed, as periodically the inducer will need to be disassembled and the creosote scraped off. There are a few models on the market, and some have been around for 20+ years. The trade off in the little bit of extra maintenance should be much longer boiler longevity.

As I convert mine over to a draft induced unit, I'll take pictures and post results. I'm actually looking forward to the conversion. 

[beenthere]

marty
Very interesting, and will look forward to see your results.

I'm thinking that they won't be so great, but hope that doesn't hold true in your case.

I'm thinking that based on some actual experience years back when I built my home and accepted an oil-fired boiler that was to be the "new" higher efficiency system for heating water in a furnace. Scrapped the conventional oil gun for an induced draft blower putting a negative pressure on the combustion chamber.
Sound familiar?
Well the maintenance was horrific, and the bad part was I couldn't find anyone who understood the concept (all they knew was the oil gun idea). There were so many safety controls due to the design, but the killer was the blower would collect just a little bit of oil soot and the efficiency took a nose dive until I took the boiler apart and cleaned all the soot out. That is a dirty job!!!  Say nothing about the fact that the induced draft blower had to run at 3400 rpm to do the job, which meant belting the oil pressure pump down to run at its desired 1750 rpm. That introduces maintaining a belt which wasn't involved in the conventional oil boiler units. Then to add the fact that the burn chamber had a wet pack that had to be replaced every time the unit was cleaned. Stuff it into a small hole while wet and unfold it, then fire up the boiler to set it up solid for the high temps from the oil fire. I was a slave to that oil-fired boiler.
I could go on, but seems the slight amount of soot or creosote on the induced blower blades will have a similar effect on the efficiency of the wood boiler (but maybe that is planned so the fire isn't as hot and thus doesn't warp the steel). ;) 
Good luck, and I sincerly hope that it works out for you. But I'd rather try to pick up that copperhead Dodgy posted..  ;D

[Logging logginglogging]

ecrane99-

martyinmi-

Did your knowledgable guy tell you why the forced air from above the coal bed was bad, and why the drawn air from below the coal bed was OK, for gassifier stoves?

I guess I don't quite understand the second part of your question, but  I'll attempt the first part.
1) A negative pressure draft (his term, not mine) makes for less expansion and contraction in the primary burn chamber as it will not burn as hot. Secondary burn temperatures remain the same. This means less violent cycling (expansion and contraction) of the metal in the primary burn chamber which is the vicinity where they typically rot out. .
2) A positive pressure system tends to force the condensation/creosote into any nook or cranny, pin hole in a weld, or any other imperfection that might exist in the metal which lends itself to accelerated corrosion every time the unit cycles. A similar event can take place on a diesel engine sleeve under the right circumstances. I think it's called cavitation, and once it starts, it's nearly impossible to stop.
3) Loading doors and especially their seals will not acquire as much creosote, nor do they get as hot.

Air is still introduced into the burn chambers in the same location, but it is pulled in as opposed to being forced in.

A negative pressure draft via a draft inducer also appears to be the trend in the indoor European gassers as well as the modern pellet stoves.
The pellet stove I watched run this past weekend was a Bio Win 260. It employs a draft inducer as well and it is considered a variable output boiler with outputs between 28000 and 90000 btu's. It is a very impressive machine to say the least. Because it has variable output, it can feasibly run 100% of the time, which means there are very few cycles, which in turn will prolong the life of the boiler as well as reduce emissions.

An OWB with a draft inducer does require a bit more maintenance that than a force fed, as periodically the inducer will need to be disassembled and the creosote scraped off. There are a few models on the market, and some have been around for 20+ years. The trade off in the little bit of extra maintenance should be much longer boiler longevity.

As I convert mine over to a draft induced unit, I'll take pictures and post results. I'm actually looking forward to the conversion.

Floor bricks? do they lay completely flat? The reason I ask I because I bought my stove used and they guy before had the side bricks removed, however there is one layer hear the bottom that kind of make a trench under the air holes, kind of where yours is leaking they are at an angle. Did you remove them too? And now if I am suppose to remove them I don't dare because its been along time since they have been installed and I don't want to cause a leak.

[jreimer]

I think all of us gasser owners will be experiencing what you are going through.
I just measured the ledge (where my door seals) on mine and after only 2 years the quarter inch thick (.250) metal has eroded away 40 thousands down to .210.
At that rate I'll be lucky to get 10 years out of mine.

I just spoke to probably the smartest heating expert I've ever met on Sunday.
He told me that EVERY gasser that has a force fed draft is doomed for early failure (less that 10 years).
He maintains that life expectancy can at least be doubled by going with a negative pressure draft (draft inducer) as opposed to being force fed. The Garn gasser has an inducer and there are Garn boilers that have been in use for more than 20+ years.
I am going to convert mine over this summer. A draft inducer the size that I'll need will be around $300.00.
That is a lot cheaper than a 11k boiler replacement!

Hi Marty,

I did a closer inspection of my ledge and you're right.  There is substantial corrosion and metal loss after just one heating season.  In fact, all the way around the door seal where there was any creosote built up there was considerable pitting on the edge that meets the door.  The only part of the ledge around the door seal that was still intact was the top piece.  I attribute this to it always being hot enough that condensation never forms on the top ledge.

Scary for what is happening in the firebox itself.  I'm not sure how many years it will go before it will develop pinholes like a sieve.

[martyinmi]

Welcome to the forum jreimer!

I think the ledge on the front of our boilers will definitely be the first place to corrode away. A better way to design them would have been to make the entire boiler skin longer and add another insulated door that we would have to open before we open the primary burn chamber loading door. That would help to keep the temperatures up on the ledge and cause much less condensation, which leads to corrosion.
I peeled a few bricks out of mine this past summer and I was pleasantly surprised to see no visible corrosion under them. I couldn't see any light while using a strait edge, so I'm hoping that the primary burn chamber lasts for quite a while.

[Logging logginglogging]

Has anyone else see an E 2300 do this? This is the first i have heard of this model springing a leak. I wonder if its somthing perticular to this stove or do we all need to get ready for the impending leak that could happen any day now?

[Logging logginglogging]

I think all of us gasser owners will be experiencing what you are going through.
I just measured the ledge (where my door seals) on mine and after only 2 years the quarter inch thick (.250) metal has eroded away 40 thousands down to .210.
At that rate I'll be lucky to get 10 years out of mine.

I just spoke to probably the smartest heating expert I've ever met on Sunday.
He told me that EVERY gasser that has a force fed draft is doomed for early failure (less that 10 years).
He maintains that life expectancy can at least be doubled by going with a negative pressure draft (draft inducer) as opposed to being force fed. The Garn gasser has an inducer and there are Garn boilers that have been in use for more than 20+ years.
I am going to convert mine over this summer. A draft inducer the size that I'll need will be around $300.00.
That is a lot cheaper than a 11k boiler replacement!

Hi Marty,

I did a closer inspection of my ledge and you're right.  There is substantial corrosion and metal loss after just one heating season.  In fact, all the way around the door seal where there was any creosote built up there was considerable pitting on the edge that meets the door.  The only part of the ledge around the door seal that was still intact was the top piece.  I attribute this to it always being hot enough that condensation never forms on the top ledge.

Scary for what is happening in the firebox itself.  I'm not sure how many years it will go before it will develop pinholes like a sieve.

You know I put a Lot of ashtol on that ledge and so far i really dont have any rot and pitting to speak of. I alsomtimes just dump oil on that ledge too and let it bake on. I really started doing this a lot more since my door failure has been droping rust on that ledge every time i open the door.

[Logging logginglogging]

so what ever happened?