Hemoraging water

[petefrom bearswamp]

I am bummed out.
My classic 4436 started leaking inside the firebox last season and i had it patched.
Worked fine until about a month ago when I noticed the water level falling slightly.
The leak is increasing by a lot now as i have to add 15 or so gal of water every few days now.
Doesn't appear to be leaking in the firebox as i don't have any wet ashes like I did last year with a smaller leak.
Am not sure how to approach this problem.
I plan to shut down this coming weekend as we will head to Florida soon and switch over to Oil for the duration.
Any suggestions?
Pete

[doctorb]

Pete-

How much water are you losing?  Is this something you notice and must deal with on a day to day basis?

[DeerMeadowFarm]

I guess my first step would be to find out where it's leaking. If it's not leaking into the firebox are you sure it's the boiler and not your underground lines? Do you see any wet spots?

[petefrom bearswamp]

I dont have to add water daily as yet.
In the beginning the sight gauge would be down about an inch in a week, not too bad, now i filled it yesterday and it already shows an inch low.
I took the side panel off 2 weeks ago and checked all of the connections which were sound.
The indoor pex to copper connections in my cellar are dry also.
I cant believe that the pipeline to the house is bad as it is one piece insulated pex.
It is supposed to be quite warm the next few days so I will let the fire go out and shut the lines off to see if the level drops which should indicate a jacket leak.
If it is the outside jacket it will be nearly impossible to find until spring when I can rig a temporary sight gauge and let it leak to the level of the hole.
I think my approach then might have to be as follows.
dismantle the furnace jacket and remove the insulation all around the jacket to find the leak.
This may be prohibitively difficult.
Any other ideas will be appreciated.
Pete

[beenthere]

Pressurize it and see if you can either hear or see the leak.  Either water pressure or air pressure, I'd think would be possible.  Wouldn't take but a few psi.

[petefrom bearswamp]

Good idea,
with my ancient ears I cant hear worth a hoot, but I can seal the cap and blow air with my air tank and look for wet spot(s).

[r.man]

Beware of too much pressure. You probably don't want to exceed about 2 lbs. I know that sounds low but from experience too little is better than too much. I am not familiar with your stove but can you not open the back access and peak in to the bottom to see if there is water pooling?

[Holmes]

 You cold pressure test the underground lines with water or air and a pressure gauge . Close the isolating valves , rig up a gauge on a washing machine hose and connect it to a draw off, purge valve, and see if the lines hold pressure.  Heating systems are usually pressurized to 15 psi.   Your open vessel boiler will need to be searched for the leak.
Good luck.

[bandmiller2]

A small leak as you describe will evaporate as fast as it leaks. You need to let the boiler cool then clean it well, the leak should be apparent. If a boiler is not designed for pressure it can be damaged easily by just a few pounds. Remember pounds per square inch, you have a lot of square inches on some big unsupported plates. Frank C.

[VTwoodworker]

When my eclassic cracked it was leaking about 5 gallons a day inside the fire box just above the air holes.  It was not enough to see water in the box but it made a lot of steam - so much so that it removed the creosote from the inside of the box.  The steam really messed with the burn as well.  The only way I found the leak was to let the fire go out and inspected the inside with a very bright light.  The ashes were not wet until I let the fire go out.

I think the plan to pressure test the pex is a good one and I don't think pressure on the jacket is a good idea.  My eclassic had some really bad welds with many defects and undercut and I ended up reinforcing many of them.  I think even a few psi would have opened it up.

Good luck.

Wayne

[petefrom bearswamp]

Put the last charge of wood in this morning.
Has been gulping water of the rate of 15 gallons or so in 2 days for the last few days.
I had only planned to burn it for another week before heading south after Jan 1, so it is not a major problem
When the fire has burned enough to remove the ashes and scrape the sides i plan to shut the lines off to the house and see if it is the furnace or the lines leaking.
Any one here had a problem with the outer jacket leaking?
If so how did you address it.
My thought would be to install a piece of plastic tubing on the drain valve for a sight gauge to see where the water level stabilizes.
Wont be able to do this till spring tho.

[LAZERDAN]

This happened to me last Feburary, I started loosing water every day.  It started out 10 gal/day, then a week later i could not keep water in the system, what a bummer.  I found no water above ground, so somewhere under ground the pex was breached and I really thought that this stuff was for life. but it isn't.  I could not afford when put the burner in, ultimate pex with the hard foam embedded in hard plasic.  I had listened to my friend who wrapped his in bubble wrap foam and water proof bagging.  What a mistake, his soil had gravel in it and it drained. Not mine, the trench held water and soon found when it snowed, it melted it off and my trench was filled with water.  my trench was 5 feet deep, always melted the back yard off.  So after 7 yrs I sprung a leak. Was going to pressure test, but why I was un satisfyed with the pipe anyway.  This fall I was blessed by getting a tip from a guy on craiglist, on what pex to install.  He lead me to a importer of industrial insulated pex.  It was a circus to get, tough to install very rigid, Do in summer when it's hot.  Cost 16 bucks/ft. but it is now saving me 50% on wood consumption, very nice.  But I am now a believer that pex is not indestructable, expecially if your water gets boiling hot, as when the dampner  stays open all day long. So if you have good pex do a pressure test with air, you could have a breech.    Lazerdan             

[Ford_man]

My OWB was leaking the first years I had it I found the leak in the summer when I was doing some work on the wiring ( mouse chewed it) and the ground was wet . I tighten the clamp on one of the lines . the leak stopped. I think the heat of the lines kept the pipes dry. Hope this is all you have to do.

[petefrom bearswamp]

Well well, Hooray!
Shut down with the valves at the furnace shut.
cleaned the firebox with no evidence of leakage inside.
It has been 6 days now and no loss of water from the furnace jacket.
Must be either bad PEX as lazerdan has had or maybe the fittings I used when I re installed last summer.
These fittings are slip on type and you can easily rotate the fitting on the pex and weren't cheap..
I checked these several times when burning, but didnt see any evidence of leaking
Maybe the hot water evaporated too quickly to be evident as suggested by Ford_man.
My underground pex is the stuff supplied by Central boiler insulated and encased in ribbed plastic outer covering.
I am off to Florida next week until April and will do a pressure test then with maybe 8- 10 lbs of pressure
I am reluctant to put too much pressure on due to the plate heat exchanger which sends the hot h2o to my oil boiler jacket.
Another possibility is the exchanger is shot it is 9-1/2 yrs old.
Again my heartfelt thanks to all who have made suggestions and observations
Happy New Year!
Pete

[thecfarm]

I had a fitting leaking on my OWB. It was on the backside of the line. I had run my hand down that line many times before too. Maybe the hot water evaporated too quickly as Ford_man on mine too. Finally I felt the water. Easy fix,once I knew where the water was coming from. Some sort of plastic ring and nut was used. They did not hold up on the back of the the OWB at all. Fine in the house. I brought something called a Ford coupling. Not a drop since I replaced them.

[LAZERDAN]

Ya  You have the good pex I can tell by the way you described it.  Are you sure you weren"t boiling water.  I"ve boiled the water before but not days on end.  I was exited when I found my stove was not leaking too.  I can't wait for the pressure test    Lazerdan