Belsaw questions

[Trapper John]

Hi Folks, I have had an Model M Belsaw in my shed for years and its time to put it together.  I have lots of questions, hope someone can shed some light.  Is there a formual for determining the length of a circular mill needed for cutting a certain length log?  Is their a formula for determing the location of the mandrel?  Can the Model M arbor handle a 48 " blade?  What is the maximum length of log I can cut with a 10 foot carriage for lumber?  for timbers? 
   I am planning on using the stringers from a forest lookout tower from Indiana.  They are 9 inches wide and vary in length from 8 to 23 feet.  I plan to weld them end to end and vertically,  staggering the joints to get the total length of the eventual mill.  I am thinking heavy is good for any mill so I would like to use all the iron I have.  The stringers are quite strong in one direction of course, but not as strong in the other and I have enough for 3 lengths of stringer on each side of the mill.  Should I weld one of the lengths horizontally to the sides or weld it vertically to give me 27 inch sides and then go with some cross bracking?  I am thinking either way I should have a pretty good base.  Maybe good enough to sit on three cross ties on packed gravel?  Anybody got any time to share ideas etc?
    Up here on the Yukon River.  Trapper John

[thurlow]

M-14 or M something else?  My mill was new in the mid-80s;  it was offered with either a 40 or 46 inch inserted tooth blade.  I see no reason it wouldn't work with a larger blade.  It's on a (factory) steel base w/10 ft carriage w/2 dogs.  The "book" said 24 inch by 14 foot  maximum log.  I have sawed a few 30 inch or so logs;  have to "gun barrel" them;  turn the log 1/8 rather than 1/4 turn.  Every time I've done it, I say I'm never doing this again.  A 30 inch by 14 ft red oak is a heavy sucker to be turning by hand.........by oneself.  The 46 inch blade will reach thru a 17 inch cant.  I have sawed some 16 ft 10 inch timbers, but had to shut the saw down each time before turning the cant...............too close to the blade for comfort.  Fourteen foot is about the maximum for lumber with the 10 foot carriage;  anymore than that and you get some thick and thin boards, because the log/cant sticks so far off the carriage.  I've forgotten how long the whole thing is.............been sawing this afternoon;  the things about a mile and a half down the road.  When I go back down there..........after while or in the morning, I'll try to remember to measure..............

[Ron Wenrich]

The size of blade would be dependent on how far out you can move your saw guides.  If you have enough room to move, your mill should be able to handle a 48" blade.  You'll only get one extra inch of cutting capacity over a 46" blade.

23' logs on a 10' carriage is a little much.  How far apart are your headblocks?  How much are you going to overhang on your carriage?  Too much will cause a lot of spring in your logs.  You'll have thick ends and thin middles.  You can turn after each cut and still have problems. 

The other factor you need to know is how much track you have.  You will have to have enough to pass your saw and 23' of material .  I run a 50' track and my maximum size is 25'.  Overhang on the ends helps with the loading and unloading.  I also have a 4 headblock, 16' carriage, and I still have some problems with log spring on the longer stock.

[SCSawyer]

Hello guys,
on the blade size im not sure if your mill has it or not but the bell saws that had a pto attachment you could not use a blade bigger than where the shaft came to the husk for it touching, there are a lot of those saws in my area and the biggest blade ive saw is 42" on most but there is one old man near here that set his up and with modifaction he can run a 52" and for track he laid down I beam 60 foot of it and welded his track to this his mill really cuts good his is pulling it with an old international 6 cylinder he has way more horse power than needed but i tell you that little saw can put out some lumber, I may be able to get some pics if you want.                       
                                                                                        Good Luck,
                                                                                            Scott

[Don P]

Mine is one of the later M-14's made '94. Its on 30 feet of steel with a 10' carriage running a 46" IKS blade. The factory steel track is in 3 sections 10' long. There was an M-16 for a couple of years after mine, I think it had a 12' carriage. Not sure if there are some out there. You might be able to get some parts from Timberking and make a longer carriage if you want to do longer lengths  ???.

[Trapper John]

Thanks guys,
     I am learning lots about the circular mill. Guess you could boil it down to is that you should have a long carriage to cut long boards and that you should have a track that is twice the length of the board you want to make.  A five foot overhand on the carriage is pretty much the outer limit for cutting boards and maybe timbers also.  Am I pretty much on track here?  Another question (I have lots), does a sawmill set up a harmonic vibration?  I have a Jacobs wind generator on a 115' guyed tower and at certain speeds it will rock back and forth slightly.  Also, on your mills, is your mandrel off center?  If so, how much?  I am trying to figure out the optimal offset for my eventual mill.
     I guess the Model M was the bare bones kit from Belsaw.  It supplied everything for a 30 mill except the buyer had to build the frame (from 2 X 10s) and assemble.
     I am intrigued by the idea of extending my carriage eventually.  Has anyone attempted this?  I am also also wondering about the merits of a really long track.  Sixty feet ??? Really?  How long is the carriage or am I missing something here?
   Have fun sawing guys, hope to join you one of these days.  One thing I have learned, sawmills are going to be work, my  back is telling me that right now.  But building the thing is the hard part I think.  Till next time,  Trapper John

[Ron Wenrich]

5' of overhang on each end is a little too much.  A couple of feet on each end won't effect you too much. 

Any  carriage can be extended, as long as you have headblocks, trucks and a common shaft to control your headblocks.  These must match.  I know one guy who ran 2 Frick carriages together.  He had a 32' carriage and is the only guy around that can cut 40' beams.  Maybe you can find another carriage to join.

I'm not sure what you mean by an off centered mandrel.  I've seen them both ways.  My current one is centered. 

I haven't had any problem with harmonics.  Rock and roll is usually caused by guitars.   ;)

[Trapper John]

Ron,
    My Belsaw manual shows plans where the arbor is located between 1 and 3 feet off center towards the off load side, depending on the length of the mill.  The offset appears to be random. 
     For your 16 foot carriage, what is considered your "long stock"?  Do you regularly use your full 50 feet of track?  I am thinking the extra track is nice because it gets you away from the blade when loading and turning logs.  John

[Ron Wenrich]

I'm running a full automatic with a vertical edger.  I can saw a 24' log.  I have a 54" headsaw.  So, my effective work area is about 7-8'.  I only use all of my track when I saw the long stock.  If you extend your mill, you will have to place your pulleys further apart.  Don't forget to have some sort of end stops.  Old tires work good.

You have to watch how far back you put your loading area.  If you put it too far back, you'll do a lot of walking when you want to load or turn your logs.  Too far front and you won't have enough room to work.  You can have the logs hang out over the end of your rails.  That doesn't hurt anything.

I'm not to concerned about the offset.  If you're going with a bigger blade, then if may be a problem, since your board splitter will have to be moved as well as the saw guides.  I'm thinking they used a standard husk for all their mills and adjusted the arbor to compensate for the board splitter location.  Just a theory.

[thurlow]

Not sure this will add anything to what Don and Ron........I seem to remember them singing, "What's Your Name";  I guess maybe that was Don and Juan........have posted.  My frame is also 30 ft.......3 ---- 10 ft sections.   The blade is about centered;  it's 13 ft 3 inchs from leading edge of blade to "log" end of track.  It's a right hand mill;  don't know if all Belsaws were or not.  There's an inch and a half clearance between blade and guide pin support;  a 48 inch blade would clear the support, but the pins would be an inch further from the edge of the saw.  If I were putting on a bigger blade, I'd probably drill some new holes and move it out a little.  I see no reason one couldn't make the track as long as desired,  except as a practical matter;  definitely have to have a longer carriage/more log dogs/move the carriage drive pulleys.........as has already been discussed.

You'll also need some ramps/skids/something to load the logs.  As lightly as they're made, I see no way to put logs directly onto the carriage with forks/loader/etc without messing something up.  A fellow a few miles away had a mill like mine;  he's the reason I bought my mill.  He just used a couple of 8 ft poles and either rolled the logs up with cant/peavy hooks or parbuckled them with a rope..........from the ground.  I helped him once or twice before I bought my mill and knew immediately that I would do something different.   I built what I call skids before I sawed the first log.  The first ones were wooden;  used them about 5 years and built these.........they're hinged to allow access to the carriage without climbing over;   it becomes second nature to swing them up and down as needed.

[Ron Wenrich]

If you put a piece of angle on the carriage and another on the track frame, you can put your carriage in a position that it will tip backwards due to load.  The two angles will overlap.  I have 2 of them on my carriage.

[Trapper John]

Thanks for the information and good advice guys.  I have decided on a stationary mill with 45' of track.  I eventually plan on making a longer carriage.  Thanks for the photo thurlow, that is a neat long ramp.  Ron, can you send a photo of the angles you attached to your carriage and track and why you attached them? 

Thanks, John

[Don P]

As I was doing a little sawing yesterday I was thinking, why are the headblocks only 68" apart total, 34" each? It does make short work of, short work but I have a 10' carriage with less than 6' of the log is clamped to it. Edging 14' 4/4 can be a little slappy.
One thing a larger blade might give you is the ability to use bigger trucks on the carriage. I don't think I'd want to go much bigger on that mandrel and collar though.