Trouble winching logs out of tornado flattened woods(need ideas)

[Joe Hillmann]

I am in the(very slow) process of trying to salvage logs from a couple acres of popple woods that was completely flattened in a tornado this summer.  The majority of them are uprooted and in a single direction but  a bunch of them are in other directions as well.  In the entire woods there is maybe 4 trees still standing.

Only about one third of the logs are large enough to make logs out of and I would like to only take those and leave the rest to rot. 

The problem I am having is my winch isn't powerful enough to just hook it to a tree and just drag it out through any obstruction.  Right now I am going through, delimbing everything and then dragging out all the logs to untangle them.  The problem is only about 1/3 of them are large enough to use.  So I am spending hours cutting limbs and dragging out logs that I have no use for except maybe low quality firewood.

What would make it much easier is if I had a way to pull the logs I  want up as well as out of the woods.  That way they wouldn't get tangled up on all the other junk.  I tried building a 12 foot tall tripod with a snatch block under it to hopefully pull up on the logs as I was winching them up.  But it kept falling down.  But even if it did work it was heavy and very difficult to set up in the tangled woods.  The few times it didn't fall down it did actually help the logs go over the debris rather than try to plow through it.

At this point I am thinking of setting up a snatch block 35 feet up in one of the remaining trees, then run the winch line to that then out to the logs.  Since that would take up most of my 80 foot winch cable I would have to then use a couple hundred feet of chain to get to all the logs.

Are there any common methods I am missing for using a winch to lift logs as they are drug out?

The winch I am using is homemade out of auto parts and is connected to an Allis B(13 hp and 2000 pounds)  I doubt it can pull much more than a ton before the clutch starts slipping or the tractor gets drug back.

[Magicman]

Professional loggers here will not touch a "tornado thicket" and they have skidders.  Also no sawmill will knowingly buy the logs.

I generally saw a few wind/tornado trees each year, but there can be splintered/shattered rejects that aren't identified until the log is opened on the sawmill.

[Southside]

I don't think you have a successful option with the equipment you have.  I know it probably feels like throwing good money after bad but hiring or renting a dozer to windrow the mess then burn it is likely the only viable option outside of letting it rot for 20 years.  

[Haleiwa]

If what you are calling "popple" is quaking aspen, it simply is not worth the effort you will expend for what you can get from it.  Rent an excavator with a thumb if you want to clear it, but this is a disposal project, not a resource recovery.

[firefighter ontheside]

Instead of a tripod you could make a gin pole.  Might be more stable as long as you pull down or only in the direction the pole is pointing.  You can make your winch do more for you with a block, but then you have to use twice as much cable.  Using chain or other cables to pull on could help with reach.  I had a similar situation about 17 years ago when the land I live on had 90 mph straighline winds take down most of the trees and they were all pointing east when it was all done.  I had a logger come in who used horses to skid logs.  I didn't want a big skidder damaging what trees were left.  Unfortunately after he was done we had years of work cleaning up the rest of the mess.

[Iwawoodwork]

As suggested prior, rent a small excavator with a thumb the strain and stress savings will be well worth it, From what you describe the size of wood a 4-6000 lb  excavator  would be more than big enough. it could be easily moved on a car trailer by a 250 size pickup. You will have to buck the wood into manageable lengths regardless of which way you decide to go , as you will probably need to create a path into the center of the blow down patch to  reach and remove the useable wood.

[Ed_K]

 If you try the gin pole may sure it has a way to lock in the up position. I had one on a 190 intro and didn't lock it and the winch pulled it forward and right down on the cab. Wasn't a good day. Between chains an cable buy the cable to run from the standing trees it'll work much better. I did this on timber stand improvement jobs retrieving cordwood.

[thecfarm]

What a mess, Too bad.  :(
I saw a mess like this in Sumner ME. First time I ever saw something like this. Can't remember the acres, I only saw from the road, maybe 10? These was trees up to a 1½ feet across. Than that one would take down more trees.   

[mike_belben]

Hire or trade some farmer friend with a dozer to come help for a day.  If he stays on the machine and you stay on the ground with a saw youll get through it faster than anything else.  You saw the cull pieces up and he pushes them off to the side.  You hook the chain to the blade and he backs up and pulls the save logs to a pile and unhooks himself while you saw away to set up his next tug. 


Anything you dont get in a day let it be.  Sorry man.  its a crummy situation. 

[mike_belben]

An A-frame gin pole on a 3 point hitch does work but you have to be able to set the whole attachment on firm ground while winching and when the log comes in you have to reattach it to the buttplate down low.  The ginpole will flip the tractor if you try to drive while hooked to a highline.  


If you have any hydraulics on that machine you could also build a A-frame ginpole ontop of a snowplow, just be careful to be sure it clears the radiator.   

An old 4wd tow truck wrecker bed will also work for twitching out storm tangles if you got a cousin or pal with one of those.  Most twinlines with a telescoping boom will go up about 15feet and stabilize by putting the wheel lift down on the ground. 

[charles mann]

Anyone in your area that has a military wrecker/crane truck could yard the trees with either the front or rear winch, for nearly 200 ft away. Plus the crane could be lifted to max elevation, attach a snatch block to it to help with getting a higher pull. Plus a deal may be worked out that if they want the cull trees, trade their time/equip for the wood. 

[Happy Sawyer]

Maybe call this guy!

[Iwawoodwork]

You asked about something to help your Allis B with winch drag wood from your tornado mess, a fairlead that is raise above your winch as high as possible. A fair lead could be made from metal or wood with a pulley or block mounted at the top/ on a small tractor like the allis  I would want something like wheelie bars  or a blade/shield across the back to keep from tipping over backwards when winching  or pulling.
to get the least resistance when winching logs the more lift the better,  less of the log surface on the ground the better. 
Another way, if there are any sturdy trees near is to put a block up in the tree as high as possible, better to use a synthetic strap around the tree to not damage the tree and hang the block from the strap, you can get lift that way and will make for an easier pull. 

[Lostinmn]

If what you are calling "popple" is quaking aspen, it simply is not worth the effort you will expend for what you can get from it.  Rent an excavator with a thumb if you want to clear it, but this is a disposal project, not a resource recovery.

This is right on, while it costs a few bucks to rent.  You will be shocked how fast you can work through piles, especially if you are sorting.  Even a smaller unit with a thumb is pretty fast, I rented one twice this summer too clear some meadows and it went way better then expected, had the excavator on one side of the property sorting and loading a dump trailer which dumped over on another area. Your our of pocket is tiny when you factor in the speed.  I moved some pretty big pines Lickety-split!
Best of luck!

[Joe Hillmann]

I ended up moving to an area of the woods that wasn't totally flattened and still has a few trees.  I hang a snatch block in a tree so the cable is pulling the logs up and I put a snatchblock on the log to double the pulling power of the winch.  I am also no longer pulling the entire tree out.  The longest logs I am pulling out now are a bit over 40 feet.


 I only have an hour after work to get logs out before it gets dark. So I am only able to get 2 or 3 logs out a day.

Yesterday I had another person helping with his tractor and winch.  The bigger winch helped but not having to constantly get on and off the tractor to hook and unhook chains.  I dont know how much longer I will have his help in this woods.


Popple is similar to aspen but from looking at pictures it isn't exactly the same.  It's only commercial value here is for making osb or paper.  I intend to use it to build a log cabin. 

[Walnut Beast]

Nice work on the use of snatch blocks and a little thinking 👍

[Blueknife]

Popple is similar to aspen but from looking at pictures it isn't exactly the same.  It's only commercial value here is for making osb or paper.  I intend to use it to build a log cabin.

I'd encourage you to do a bit of research on that before putting in the work. "Popple" can refer to a variety of different types of trees, depending on the region, but in all cases, they have just about the worst decay resistance of any tree in the woods. Definitely not something that I'd use for exterior log walls that will be exposed to weather. 

[Joe Hillmann]

Popple is similar to aspen but from looking at pictures it isn't exactly the same.  It's only commercial value here is for making osb or paper.  I intend to use it to build a log cabin.

I'd encourage you to do a bit of research on that before putting in the work. "Popple" can refer to a variety of different types of trees, depending on the region, but in all cases, they have just about the worst decay resistance of any tree in the woods. Definitely not something that I'd use for exterior log walls that will be exposed to weather.

No matter if the trees I am using are really cottonwood, poplar or aspen they are low quality and need to be protected from the weather.  But in my area the only wood that wouldn't be considered low quality would be white oak and those are not particularity common.
The US forest service did a study of"aspen for cabin logs" in 1947.  It is specific to my area so I assume they are talking about the same type of trees I am using.
Here is the link.  https://www.fs.fed.us/nrs/pubs/LSFES_aspen_reports/1947_lakestates_aspen_15.pdf

I am reading through it at the moment.  It appears as if their conclusions are if you have wide eves and a high foundation so water can't bounce back up, aspen logs are okay to use.

If rot, or lack of insulation, or high maintenance, or chinking ever becomes a problem I would have no problem with covering the outside of the building with some type of siding, and insulating and sheetrocking the inside.  Obviously I would prefer not to do either of those things but I would prefer a comfortable, semi low maintenance house instead of one that is rotting away and can't be kept warm.

[Blueknife]

Interesting publication. I read through it and saved it. Certainly going to take some extra effort but maybe you can make it work. Hope so. I hate seeing trees like that go to waste. You're definitely going to want to heed their advice about peeling, drying and preservative (BTW, can you get those chemicals they mentioned any more? I'm thinking not, but don't know for sure). Aspen starts rotting almost instantly, it seems, as soon as it hits the ground. I've had random aspen logs make their way into a stack of firewood logs and you could grab chunks out of them by hand within a year.  

[brewdog]

hire a gui with a horse .

[foresterdj]

I am with the dozer windrow and burn option. (Or windrow and don't burn, your call.) Popple in Wisc. almost certainly is aspen, get it cleared off before spring, let the new stand sucker in next year. Even if with excessive man hours you get the bigger ones out, you are still left doing something with the rest. Once the aspen starts coming in next year you do not want to be trashing the regen while still puttering along with the unsalvable junk.

[lshobie]

Ive done tornado work and it's the nastiest stuff Ive ever dealt with - really dangerous.  Only way was with an excavator with a thumb - 20 ton was barely enough to do the job at times, I was on the saw and buddy on the ex.  We were lucky as the trees were on a thin layer of soil on top of bedrock - all laid down and not cracked.  Some rootballs were 20 feet high...real tricky.  Good luck and dont do it alone.

[treemuncher]

I have a similar job coming up. About 75-100 trees laid down from the recent tornado on a customer's job site. Lots of oaks well over 2' diameter and some over 3'. There is only one way that I will approach this job. It was difficult enough just to try to walk it, I can't imagine trying to cut your way in with a saw just to get access to limb it and drop stumps, let alone drag a cable in.

The only safe way that I can see to do this type of job is an excavator with a mulching or cutting head on it. This way I can cut any and all branches & tops in my way to make a clear shot to the stump. I can sort and obliterate materials as I go. With my cutter head, I can even mulch the entire stump ball or section trees if I desire to. There is a 300 hp Cummins 8.3 on the back that powers my head.


 

I realize that equipment like what I normally run is not available to everyone, but this is the safest way about it. Next choice in line would be an excavator with a hydraulic thumb and clearing rake. I can still rip off the tops and section the trees with the clearing rake and keep organized piles for access to the trees. Burn piles can be built higher and cleaner with an excavator. It's still going to be dangerous with lots of limbs and stick-ups about but a good operator that minds the hazards can make quick work of it without incidents.

In my opinion, a dozer is the last thing that I would put into a tornado drop situation due to the hazards of limb whiplash, unseen pokes into the radiator and near impossible conditions to sort materials safely. Of course this is just my opinion. I've done it all of these ways and I'm just stating what has worked safest and most efficiently for me. If you don't care about your equipment or your health, other methods may work just as well with a good dosage of luck. I've had enough close calls and accidents to put my safety above all else in my work.

[stavebuyer]

There was a tornado that went through Natchez Trace State Forest about 25 years back. They ran a salvage sale; all you could load on the truck at $600 a stumpage per load IIRC. They divided up cutting units between SMZs and you had to finish one unit and get released before you moved to another. There was every type of imaginable equipment employed. At least 25 crews. I had one crew there that had a Cat 525 grapple and a one of the best saw men I ever encountered. They shamed the excavator equipped crews. By no small margin our grapple crew cut more acres and loads than anyone else there. A lot of W. Oak veneer. We made some serious money. The logging crew worked there a$$ off and I did as well. Crawled over every inch of that copperhead and tick infested mess hunting the good white oak while others settled for the more open Scarlett Oak flats and then decided it wasn't worth $600. I still smile over that opportunity.  8)

[stavebuyer]

I will add that "tornados" are not the same. F0-F1 storms can leave lots of material worth saving as its mostly blown over/damaged limbs. F3 seems to really twist and shatter the stems. I looked at a bunch in So IL after an F4 and there just wasn't anything to salvage.

 The same crew from Natchez Trace tract ended up at an old growth "school tract" just south of Meridian MS post Katerina. 100 miles inland the trees were just toppled in saturated soils. No internal damage at all.