Milling For Hire

[BigTX]

Hello all.  I am brand new to the forum.  I currently serve in the military, but retirement is close, and we already own our retirement place in East Texas.  I have several projects of my own that need to be accomplished and seriously considering a bandsaw mill to assist with the project and then likely it will be a hobby mill since I like to woodwork.   

I would like for the machine to generate enough income to pay for itself, and obviously, if it could generate some side money, that would be great as well.  My quandary is what to get.  A small woodmizer or norwood is where I am looking, but I am not opposed to other brands, but they do not have some of the log loading assistance.  I will be in my 50s in retirement. Plus, if you go mobile to generate income, you need a log-loading aid and, thus, a bigger, more expensive machine.

The bigger machine I was looking at was the LT15 or Lumber Pro. Those are in the 12-15k range for a mobile trailer with a log loader. Quick math of $60 an hour for an 8-hour day is 210 daily divided into 15k, which yields about a month's worth of work to pay the machine off.  This seems very reasonable if your only desire is to buy the machine but allow it to work to pay itself off.  After that, the owner can decide to grow the business or make tool money here and there.

It seems like if it was this simple, everyone would own one.  Not going to lie I would like to generate a decent income with it but if I could just pay for it and then allow it to make side money and have it as a hobby saw I would be fine.     

Thoughts. 
Looking forward to learning here, and sorry for the long post, but some context was needed.     

[mudfarmer]

It seems like if it was this simple, everyone would own one.      

"Got it in one" as they say 

Welcome to the forum! You came to the right place and I will let the smart folks take it from here

[beenthere]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

Search will be your friend to learn about your question. There are many members who have the information and many who are willing to help.
Shortcut, member Magicman and his posts (there are a few  ) would be the quickest way to learn how to mill for others and why, but also the commitment it will take and the "in" with the weatherman upstairs.

Lots of help here and lots and lots of reading. Check out the sawmill gathering next month and if you can swing it, go and join the fun that they will have at Customsawyer's place in GA. Many there can guide you along for good results.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=123599.msg2026198#msg2026198

To be blunt, few run a bandsaw and "make a living". But hard work and dedication can make it happen.

Enjoy the ride, and very welcome to have you aboard.

[Magicman]

Plus, if you go mobile to generate income, you need a log-loading aid and, thus, a bigger, more expensive machine.

The bigger machine I was looking at was the LT15 or Lumber Pro. Those are in the 12-15k range for a mobile trailer with a log loader.

Your sawmill sights are not set high enough if you are going to go mobile to generate income.  Hydraulic log handling options would be your friend and those don't have it.

I seriously doubt that your productivity would be in the $60 per hour range.

[Jeff]

Not nearly set high enough for those goals.

[WV Sawmiller]

   Welcome. 

   Jeff and the MagicMan nailed it - you need bigger equipment for what you are describing. I agree you need the Hydraulics especially if you want to mill for the public. They are going to want you to get in, set up quickly. mill their logs and get out because for the most part you are costing them time and money especially if you expect them to provide labor which is what many of us who mill mobile do.

    Your pricing seems on the low end especially when you move up to a hydraulic mill with better capacity. I suggest you get some experience cutting your own stock first or work with someone else off-bearing for a while till you can produce quality lumber. You only get one chance to make a first impression so you want it to be a good one.

    Go see every show or workshop you can. You will learn some new tip to make you faster and better and make the work easier at every one. Watch the work flow to find the little things that make the work easier and more efficient.

    Eat your grits daily and keep us posted on your progress. 

[TroyC]

Welcome!

You'll get good advice here, lots of good folks with a lot of experience.

I have a manual mill for hobby use. I think that's what an LT15 might be. I took on a small job once making 200 1x4x8' for a friend. That was a lot of hard work for what little I made. I  made enough to pay for blades, fuel, and maybe a little left over, but not much. I think if you go milling for others, at their place, you'll need more mill. Look for hydraulics.

Majicman is the 'go to man' for portable milling. Listen carefully when he comments

Thanks for your service and good luck on your retirement!

[fluidpowerpro]

I seriously doubt that your productivity would be in the $60 per hour range.

Yes, if your production isn't high enough your customer won't get enough lumber for $60.00. If you charge by the board foot, you don't make enough for your time. There will be the occasional request for specialty pieces, and you might get away with a manual mill for those, but I have found those don't come around too often.

[GAB]

BigTX:
To what the others have said I wish to add that I suggest you staying home and practice on your logs in your own man cave and start with very low grade material as you will produce some myty fine designer firewood.  I know I did.  This is reference to MM's first impression comment.
From what you have posted I would suggest an LT40 WIDE head with hydraulics and accusetII and the blade lube system, at a minimum.  As to HP, as much as you can afford.  Many LT40's have the Kohler 20 something HP gas engine.  I have the 34HP Cat diesel and the one time I sawed with a kohler engined LT40 I had to cut my sawing speed in roughly half.
I prefer to saw by the hour that way I do not make as many math errors tabulating and when the customer asks how long will it take I reply; how good is your help at off bearing the mill and keeping the logs ready to load.   One job I did I estimaed a day and a half.  When it was done it took 7 hours and I had never sawed that many logs in a day.  The blade broke out of the cant and the board was on its was out.
GAB

[Southside]

Quick math of $60 an hour for an 8-hour day is 210 daily divided into 15k, which yields about a month's worth of work to pay the machine off. 

That's gotta be Air Force math? Could be Army too I suppose.     Welcome to the Forum.  At 50 hydraulics are your friend, your PT belt won't save you here. 

[WV Sawmiller]

   One question I have is how you come up with the $60/hour rate?

   I don't know how other's established their hourly rate but I sawed a lot of lumber using a BF rate and I was pretty anal about keeping up with my sawing production rate. When I had sawed for a while and was comfortable with a "normal" production, I established an hourly rate for specialty type sawing based on "If I had been sawing reasonably decent logs how many BF would I have sawed and how much money would I have made?"

    I set up my hourly rate so I make a comparable rate so I am fair to my customer and don't lose out in the process. 

[Iwawoodwork]

You have been given some great info.  I have a mobile  mighty mite mill with hyd feed and  hyd raise and lower and it is still a slow process no way could I charge $60 an hr and have/keep customers.  Unless you have previously sawn quite a bit you will have a learning curve that could be many months with the type of mill you mentioned, they are slow and hard work. There will be a number of damaged blades around $30 each plus sharpening cost for dull ones. Without an auto set of some type cutting uniform boards quickly is not an option, it takes time to set up the log then time to adjust cut to get it close to uniform and time to handle the slabs and cut lumber   so unless you can afford a fully hydraulic with an auto set just consider hobby sawing until you can justify upgrading .

[BigTX]

Wow! On most forums, you wait days for just a couple of responses. 

Thanks for all the replies.  Southside is right I made a math error... Sorry, I am a knuckle dragger. 

I want to clarify that I am not really looking to make a living as it is for my own use, but I would like to make enough just to pay for the toy. I totally agree that I would need to practice at home before venturing out. That is why I did not put a timeline on it, like pay for it within 6 months, etc because I understand it will take time to garner some skills.  With all of that said, it sounds like I could pay for the machine but might need to be charge by the bf rather than the hour if I buy a smaller machine.  I understand the need for productivity that hydraulics brings, but that is a much higher price for a primarily hobby machine, not sure my budget can swing that, but I will definitely explore. I will do some searching on bf prices and just accept the fact that my hourly wage might be in the single digits, but I am willing to put in the time to just pay for the machine.  I was looking at the Norwood machines due to the fact that they allow for growth over time, and as age catches up with me, even as a hobby, hydraulics will likely be needed. I guess my biggest fear is that there is not a market for that type of work in the area, and I am struggling with how to do market research.  Obviously, if there is a lot of demand, then the higher price machine is no brainer.

I have some time to make a decision given that I am still serving, but I am a planner and like to get out in front of things....plus I have to convince my wife that I need another toy. I am open to any other comments... you can not learn if you do not ask then listen.         

[BigTX]

One question I have is how you come up with the $60/hour rate?

   I don't know how other's established their hourly rate but I sawed a lot of lumber using a BF rate and I was pretty anal about keeping up with my sawing production rate. When I had sawed for a while and was comfortable with a "normal" production, I established an hourly rate for specialty type sawing based on "If I had been sawing reasonably decent logs how many BF would I have sawed and how much money would I have made?"

WV -- I pulled the hourly rate from some of the market quotes in my area and from some other posts I saw on forums.  Good points have been made here about productivity, and without it, the customer is paying more per bf than is reasonable.  That alone could kill future business.  Like I mentioned in my last post, I am looking for ways to pay for the machine, and if a business grows out of that, then I would follow; if not, then my hobby machine paid for itself or at least contributed to some of the cost.   

    I set up my hourly rate so I make a comparable rate so I am fair to my customer and don't lose out in the process.

[TimW]

Woodmizer has a dealer in Kirbyville.  Give Jay a holler.

[longtime lurker]

You have been given some great info.  I have a mobile  mighty mite mill with hyd feed and  hyd raise and lower and it is still a slow process no way could I charge $60 an hr and have/keep customers.  

Mighty mite bandmill not a twinsaw right? 
BIG difference in capacity there.

[caveman]

I'll throw out something else to consider.  Instead of purchasing a new manual mill, there is the option to buy a considerably more productive used mill.  We bought a new WM lt-28 in 2010 or 11 and used it for several years.  It was a great mill with not a lot to go wrong, being all manual, except for the power feed.

Fast forward to 2019.  We bought an Lt-50 off of a FF member in the for sale section.  It was a much more capable mill than the LT-28 (which is very similar to an LT-15).  Both produce very good lumber, but after learning to drive the LT-50, it is able to do so much quicker with less physical exertion.  Both of the mills were able to produce plenty of lumber for our personal uses and for us to pay ourselves back for the purchase price of the mills and related equipment.  Even at a cost of nearly 4x the cost of the new Lt-28, we were able to pay ourselves back much quicker with the LT-50.  Our LT-50 has never been used by us to mobile saw.

Thank you for your service and welcome to the Forestry Forum.  Regardless of what you get, there will be a learning curve.  You will likely produce some lumber that, as it dries, loses it apparent quality and usefulness.  The knowledge is here to help you get whatever mill you end up with to turn logs into the best lumber possible as well as keeping your machine in top working order.

[scsmith42]

If I were you, I'd consider buying a used mill, such as an LT15, 28 or Norwood.  Use it around your place and see if this is something that you want to pursue more seriously as a side gig, and if there is business demand in your area for these services.

If the answer is "yes", then consider upgrading to a portable, hydraulic mill.  If the answer is "no", then your initial cost of acquisition for your used mill will be fairly low.

Be advised though - there is a lot more to running a sawmill than just acquiring a mill.  You'll need a way to handle logs and lumber stacks.  Many folks start off with farm tractors and then move on to something better suited for heavy logs and lumber stacks such as a forklift, skid steer with grapple rake and fork attachments, or a telehandler.

Then you'll need a place to store the stacked and stickered lumber.  Usually some type of drying means - such as a solar, DH or iDry kiln follows.  It can be a very slippery slope.

If you become serious about doing it as a business, I cannot stress enough the importance of log loading, turning, clamping, toe board, board drag back hydraulics / automation on the sawmill.  The productivity increase is a quantum leap over an all manual sawmill.

[WV Sawmiller]

   How much time are you going to want/be able to dedicate to milling? That should be one of your early questions you answer.

   Some of the equipment, space, and drying issues listed above may not apply if you are doing mobile sawing off-site for others so your business planning needs to include such factors.

   I, and some others here, just do mobile sawing. I mostly trailer my mill to the customer's site and saw his logs there using his help and whatever equipment he has available. Everything I need fits in the back of my pick up truck and the mill tows behind.

 I don't dry lumber. I custom cut and sell a little green/partially air dried, rough lumber from trees/logs harvested or salvaged off my property. 

   If you want to provide all labor, drying, equipment to handle logs and lumber, finishing services you can make more money but you are going to have to shell out a lot more time and money to get set up and operate. Can you or do you want to do so?

[SawyerTed]

Longevity should be a consideration.

How long will you be able to do the work around a manual mill?   Will you be able to work lmore years with a hydraulic mill?   

[fluidpowerpro]

I would lean towards an entry level manual mill at first. You will learn a lot using that in the beginning. If you do generate some revenue with it consider it a bonus. Note that I say revenue, not profit,  because with a manual mill you won't be able to charge much for your labor. 
By starting with a low end mill you will find out how much you enjoy milling. If you don't enjoy it then your going to work every day and your no longer retired. 
If you enjoy it, you can always sell the smaller mill and spend more on a bigger one. You will also have gained some experience sawing so if you do start doing more outside work you can do it with some experience under your belt.

[WV Sawmiller]

   Yeah but remember - it is a lot more fun sawing with a hydraulic mill with a decent electronic setworks  so what might not be fun sawing with a manual mill would be a blast with hydraulics.

    I'd strongly suggest you look into off-bearing for a local sawyer or two if possible. 

    I would have quit years ago if I'd bought a manual mill but enjoy sawing with the one my wife and friends talked me into getting.

[fluidpowerpro]

Good point. 

[thecfarm]

Where are your logs coming from to saw?
I have a manual mill and land to cut my logs off from.
A manual mill is all work. And I do mean work. I just saw for myself. But a manual mill is slow. 
I have more then paid for the mill with what I have built. 
Those logs are hard to turn by hand. 
I have never sawed all day. I cut the tree down, saw the lumber up and then I build. All within hours of starting the chainsaw.

[Cedarman]

Make a full blown business plan.
Look at what all is in a business plan.
You can make one for as many different options as you can think of.
You are right to plan and research, but a business plan is a road map to achieving your goals.
Just being for hobby, one goal.
Going mobile, another goal.
How deep do you want to get into sawing, into woodworking, building you own buildings, etc.
A good business plan for each option will help you decide. It will help you focus on those areas of this forum that will make things clearer.
Even good business plans are subject to major changes as you get going.
That can be a good thing as you learn as you go.
Been doing this for 41 years.  Never dreamed I would still be working every day when I bought an LT30 manual in 83. Lots have changed since.  Still love the action.

[Magicman]

Even good business plans are subject to major changes as you get going.

I will echo that statement.  My plan was to saw and sell with only occasionally sawing for others.  It worked for one year and I paid for my "used" sawmill during that time. 

That year also gave me a reality check.  Support equipment?  Log source?  Lack of sheds?  Drying etc?  Full time job??  Enter portable sawing only for the next 20+ years.  Many sawyers successfully use both sawing and selling, it just did not work for me.

I am not saying that you will or even can have all of the answers in the beginning, but be very aware of and willing to change as you grow the business.

The wonderful thing about a sawmill venture is that if you buy a Wood-Mizer or other top of the line sawmill, you can sell and recover all if not more than your initial investment.

[jpassardi]

If I were you, I'd consider buying a used mill, such as an LT15, 28 or Norwood.  Use it around your place and see if this is something that you want to pursue more seriously as a side gig, and if there is business demand in your area for these services.

If the answer is "yes", then consider upgrading to a portable, hydraulic mill.  If the answer is "no", then your initial cost of acquisition for your used mill will be fairly low.

Be advised though - there is a lot more to running a sawmill than just acquiring a mill.  You'll need a way to handle logs and lumber stacks.  Many folks start off with farm tractors and then move on to something better suited for heavy logs and lumber stacks such as a forklift, skid steer with grapple rake and fork attachments, or a telehandler.

Then you'll need a place to store the stacked and stickered lumber.  Usually some type of drying means - such as a solar, DH or iDry kiln follows.  It can be a very slippery slope.

If you become serious about doing it as a business, I cannot stress enough the importance of log loading, turning, clamping, toe board, board drag back hydraulics / automation on the sawmill.  The productivity increase is a quantum leap over an all manual sawmill.

Thank you for your service and welcome to the Forum!
I would suggest the same as above. Another option is to later add power feed, up down and log turner if you have the fabricating skills. That's what I did to my LT15. By doing this you get "semi-hydraulics" for much less cost. My last remaining upgrade is to build is a 2 plane clamp and it will be mostly automated. Buy as much HP as possible, I just upgraded from 15 to 25 HP and it performs like a different mill.
I agree with Magicman: a quality mill like a Woodmizer will always hold value. Look deeply into the build details when you compare brands.
Good luck!

[blackhawk]

BigTX - From what you've said about doing this as a hobby and then trying to make some money on the side, you are a lot like me.  I went with a Lucas swing blade mill and it would be worth a look for you.  It has its pros and cons for sure, but in my area, the Lucas fills a niche market that no one else was doing.  I've been in my area for over 30 years and had been getting logs sawn by other's band mills.  I've used nearly all of them that cut for hire at one time or another.  None of them that I've found in my area will move their mill unless it is for a very large (several day) job.  It was always a pain for me to take my logs somewhere because I don't have any equipment except for my 3/4 ton pickup and a buddy's car trailer.

I'm really the only sawyer in my area that will do portable milling.  You will have to research your area, but there could be a decent market for you.  For my situation, charging by the hour is the only way that works for me.  With portable milling at the customer site there are just too many variables for a bf rate.  Not saying that a bf rate isn't right for someone else, just not for me.  The hourly rate starts when I arrive and ends when I'm packed up.  This covers me for prepping the site, moving logs, moving lumber and answering questions.  I've not had any complaints so far after about a dozen jobs.  I'm completely up front with my customer about all the costs when I first talk to them.  

The slabbing capability of the Lucas is the other big niche that I fill.  Slabbing has been probably 60-70% of my portable jobs.  

[WV Sawmiller]

   Around here, and I'm not that far from Blackhawk I'd guess, there seems to be a hobby mill up every holler and if I was a farmer I don't see why not to have one. Most of them will saw a little for family and friends but they are not portable and it may take 6 months to finish. That is a niche I'm filling and I love the one day jobs where I drive out set up, saw 1000-2500 bf then pack up and come home with my pay in hand. I will saw here it my house if the customer only has a log or two and want to save money by bringing it to me. I'll saw it while he waits and he leaves with his lumber. 

    I sell a little rough sawed poplar lumber and some spruce because I have it in excess on my property (The spruce is an overaged Christmas tree farm) and I can convert it to cash. My other hardwoods are worth more to me for the wildlife and my recreation. 

    As MM mentions above selling lumber takes a lot more equipment and a huge amount of storage space so I mostly custom cut what people want and anything I have in stock is just what was left over. Depending on how much land you have/buy and if there is timber there you can harvest you can make those kind of decisions.

   I set my own hours and do not want to work regular/long hours. I'll go in and work 1-3 long hard days then maybe not saw for a couple of weeks if I don't want to.

[OldSmoke]

Congrats on your near retirement! I retired from the Army two years ago myself. I have a lot of the same aspirations that you do. Bought an old Belsaw that I am still messing with, mostly for fun. But I did buy a small manual bandmill and have been cutting a lot of wood on our property for several projects. Like was mentioned above, it is a lot of work and does take some time. It helps that I have sons who need a healthy outlet for excess energy and are always asking for lumber for one project or another, no shortage of free help right now. Good luck on your ventures!

[longtime lurker]

It bears saying that a sawmill is a machine for turning logs into lumber.
And when it comes to sawmills there is no such thing as a one size fits all answer no matter how big your budget is: you can spend $250 million dollars on a state of the art production sawline and next week there's a log in the yard the mill can't handle.

Log size is one of those issues that nobody has mentioned yet. Some mills are able to handle big logs easily, some struggle with anything over 26".
Some places have plenty big logs, some places don't.

My advice to anyone contemplating a future sawdust addiction is that before you look at mills look at your log resource. Once you have an idea of what's around the local area in terms of logs then you can start to make decisions about what may or may not work for you in terms of investment and how much effort is required to make it pay. Log size is a factor, so is species because species determines application which determines the products you'll be required to cut. The mill you want for quarter sawing big oaks isn't the machine you want for punching volume in pecker poles.

Just my $0.02

[bannerd]

My first job was a log pile that was not on skids.. but I had to roll these logs about 30 feet to my hydraulic mill.  The logs were NOT stacked neat and with a skid steer on site what a mess..  I quickly change my business plan to have these things on skids and stacked neatly.  Those three days I lost so much money and time.. it was a loss for me because I charge by the board feet.

Had a job that was on a log landing and the logs were stack on skids with a roller.. the fella kept the logs coming.. made good money because I charge by the board feet but my physical body of recover was a week.  Two days of work and I was beat... it's not easy.  I will tell you.. you will handle a lot of wood, no way around it.  Your competition is the big box stores too, Amish and other sawyers.  Stay organized, keep the machine looking like new.. keep it clean and you'll do ok.

[Stephen1]

Welcome to the world of saw dust. Most of started on chainsaw, or manual mills, out of necessity for another project. thats how mine started , building the log cabin, Forestry Forum, chainsaw mill, old manual band sawmill, people bring me logs, retirement from my other life, and then hydraulic sawmills, , and then a kiln.  My GF likes to say "Steve failed at retirement" I disagree I love it, and there is a Forum full of people here that are second career sawyers , and just good old fashion sawdust makers.
There is nothing wrong with starting with a good value manual mill, teach you a lot about sawing. I bought a broken 1992 bandsaw mill ,didn't know anything and rebuilt it with lots of info from here,  to saw good lumber. I sold it for more than I paid, and bought a fully hydraulic mill and retired to this new life.
Good luck in your retirement!

[BigTX]

Thanks to all for the excellent advice.  I have been reading a ton here and am still looking.  I have some time since I am in Alaska and have NOT yet retired to my TX home.  I have done some more research in the area, and there seems to be a lack of mobile sawing.  I'm not sure if there is just no demand for it or if no one is filling the need.  There are some bigger sawmill outfits, but they are primarily focused on pallet board production.  Like others have mentioned right now I am not ready to hit the streets given I do not possess the knowledge and skills to hire out so time is somewhat on my side.  As far as used mills, there are not too many to choose from that are advertising for sale.  I think I will kick around with some farmers to see what I can find.  I am also going to hire one of the mills on Facebook on a big pine tree that is down on the property to collect the wood and to talk to the operator and help.  We will see if he is any good.  Thanks again for the advice. I love reading and learning, and I will be glad when I can retire and get my hands dirty.     

[NewYankeeSawmill]

I have done some more research in the area, and there seems to be a lack of mobile sawing.  I'm not sure if there is just no demand for it or if no one is filling the need.  There are some bigger sawmill outfits, but they are primarily focused on pallet board production.

Some great advice so far, thanks to everyone for sharing! I'm in a similar situation as @BigTX . Just got a Norwood Mills LumberPro36v2 manual mill on a trailer, with the intent of milling local logs and doing mobile work. I had figured about $50-60/hr to mobile-mill as well. After talking to a couple local guys, that was the range they suggested after I learn how to do it proper. I have a few friends/jobs lined up I won't be charging anything close to full rate to get some experience. I like the idea of charging by the hour instead of Board Foot. Too many production problems that aren't related to me can come up when you're working with the public. I'm tempted to put an hour-meter on the engine and just charge by what that says, but I'd digress. It's very much a work in progress! It's all about what the market will bear?

I had a guy out to my place about 5-6 years ago had a nice Woodmizer on a trailer, full hydraulics, I was his catcher for 2-days, paid him $400/day cash. He usually only did bigger jobs (>= 1 week), but slipped me in between some rain clouds that pushed off his regularly scheduled work. That works out to $50/hr., 5 years ago-money. Talking to a local sawyer down in Ten Mile, TN about the business before I bought the mill, he suggested the big-boys with hydraulic automagic mills are getting ~100-120/hr, small time guys like me are charging 50-65/hr. In large part due to demand, there aren't a lot of people who are able/willing to drag their mill up the side of your hill to cut up tree's. That's the way I am approaching the mobile-side of the business idea, and why I want to charge hourly. You're renting me and my machine, here's the rules, take it or leave it, you can hire someone else if you can find 'em.
We'll see if that works, lol! 

As for selling lumber I mill on my lot, I've talked to 2 local sawyers that both said inside of 6 months on Craigslist/Faceplant marketplace, you will have people calling you buying wet-wood. I kinda doubt that, but... I did (ahem, am working on!) set up a website with a 'blog' page section where I plan to post pictures of "what I cut today", and advertise that on the local classifieds, etc. Once you get some regular wood-worker customers, they tend to be repeat. One guy here in town said he has guys asking to buy logs before he even cuts them (and they give him a cut list). A lot of that will depend on what wood I'm able to source, according to the guys I spoke with on the phone.

That would be something I would suggest doing, it was very helpful for building my confidence in the business idea: Go to the manufacturer's website, they often have a "Find someone local to me" referral section, Woodmizer allowed me to eMail a couple guys, say you want to ask some questions about the local market down there in TX. Both guys I spoke to didn't mind I was "Potential competition", said "You ain't gonna hurt my business at all...." They offered excellent advice and had local knowledge.
 
As for the mill, I have been disappointed with the quality/service of the Norwood on a couple aspects and it's not even fully built yet. If you're not on a super-tight budget, get the best quality you can. Many can start out manual and add hydraulics later. My decision to buy the Norwood was partly to be as cheap as possible, to 'test the waters', so to speak? If demand is really THAT high here, I should be able to upgrade to a better mill down the road with the business supporting the $$$ and not my savings account.

WHEW! Sorry so long winded! Durned Yankee's never shut-up!

- Kevin

[SawyerTed]

Here's my word of caution about rates.  We often take a loss on our wages when rates are too low.  Don't saw for free.

On the hourly rate, make sure you cover your costs to operate including YOUR wages. Then there's the insurance, putting aside maintenance and repair money, a website consumables and all those other pesky costs that aren't fuel and blades.

Too often I've seen sawyers "buying work" with low rates only to keep recycling the same money, or worse by subsidizing the sawing from retirement income or the day job.  AVOID THAT TRAP as much as possible.  It's one thing to subsidize the up front mill purchase, which most of us do, but it's entirely different to take money out of your pocket to run the mill on a daily basis.  

I had a fellow call me about sawing for him, when he asked my rates he said he could get sawing done for $20-25 LESS.  I told him that's what he should do and fast!  He called back wanting to schedule me at my original rate.  After the job, he said my work and production was worth the rate difference. 

What happens when we saw at a loss, typically, is our wages for OUR labor and skill are what suffers.  Don't work for free!  

[doc henderson]

today's money I charge 100 bucks and hour with exceptions for friends, coworkers, veterans, folk who cannot pay, and occasional one offs for a wedding ect.  If I had to travel, I would also have a milage rate.  I think it will be fine to start like this but keep track of expendable costs like fuel and blades, as well as your time.  make sure you are not paying them to saw their lumber.  good luck.  I am a hobby guy.

[WV Sawmiller]

Yankee,

  I think WM is the only manufacturer with the option to find a local sawyer. I have asked and none of the other mill makers seem to have that option. We used to have it here on the FF but I have not checked lately to see if it is working again after the most recent server update. Some other sources offer such option such as sawmill finder and others but only WM from the mill makers as far as I have been able to verify.

    I get lots of calls from my website. I used to use a local trader/classifieds paper and had a standing service ad in there but they closed. I post flyers and leave business cards in local community stores and farm stores and such and go to flea markets and sell and advertise and sometimes even do demos there and other places mostly for advertising. I keep business cards in my wallet and truck wea a WM hat and give cards to people who stop and ask. I used to have door signs on my truck but changed trucks and need to get another. I gave out a couple last week when towing the mill and people stopped to ask at gas stations or such and gave them a card. They may or may not ever call or it may be years down the road. Word of mouth is best but takes a while. Then you are already vetted by a friend/trusted associate.

Ted/Doc,

  The hourly vs BF rate is a crap shoot. The good thing about hourly is you get the same pay whether the customer brings good or bad logs and whether he wants 4/4 4" wide roof nailers or 6X6 beams or 12' long 2X8's. It does help push the customer to be better prepared, have good help and work faster and more efficiently. The bad thing is the customer does not know his costs and we cannot tell him "I will produce ____ lumber per hour". We can tell him "I usually cut between __ and __ per hour based on the logs, the help, how well prepared you are and what you want cut." Notice those factors are governed by the customer - not the sawyer which is the case.

  The BF rate is easier for the customer to understand and budget for as he knows how much his lumber will cost. The good part about BF sawing for the sawyer is in good wood, well prepared and especially thicker boards he can sometimes make more money than hourly rate. He does not know ahead of time. I guess a combination rate of __/bf or __/hr, "whichever is greater" would be better for the sawyer while "whichever is less would be better for the customer". Also I bill bf as finished boards. I know some sawyers bill based on the estimate/log scale so they get paid the same whether it is a good log or a bad log which is fair for them but they don't get rewarded for good logs and more lumber produced or punished for bad logs and less lumber produced. I also do not charge for stickers sawed so an hourly rate would get me compensated for that while my bf rate does not.

    On my last job at the start I sawed a 6' scrappy log into 1" stickers to start us stacking and stickering then I sawed more stickers out of the edgings which meant that showed me down a little but I like to give a little extra product/service and it was a good customer so it was time and equipment use well spent.

  I have said it many times "All pricing methods are fair as long as both the customer and the miller know, understand and agree before the first cut is made."

    You can't change pricing in the middle of a job unless the customer changes what he wants and you both stop, discuss and agree to the change. Example: You are sawing bf rate for normal framing and sheeting and the customer suddenly decides he wants a log or two sawed quartersawn. It's going to take you longer and you will produce less bf. I tell my customers up front this is my rate for this type sawing and if they want quarter sawn or bring real short or dirty logs I have an hourly rate and tell them when it starts or stops so they know and agree.

  After a lot of sawing I established my hour rate to make a comparable rate as if I was sawing decent logs at my bf rate. I have not had complaints about either.

[doc henderson]

I agree, and I do most work at home.  I may get flat sawn or cookies, or even splitting previously milled slabs.  they may have a dump bed, or a trailer with sides.  they can dump them off, or stay, help, chat, ask questions, watch.  it all pays the same.  and again, I am a hobby guy just trying to break a little more than even to make up for some of the free stuff I do on a regular basis.

[WV Sawmiller]

Doc,

  Mine is awful close to hobby work as I'm not getting or trying to get rich on it but I do want it to pay for itself. I saw a little at home and mostly that is my "While You Wait" option as they come with logs, leave with lumber and stay to help. It is for 1-2 logs.

  If they leave logs and I have to do all the handling I have a higher rate than when they help/provide labor. I very seldom have this case as most like to just make one trip. It very rarely takes me over an hour for such while they wait.

  If I travel I charge a minimum fee which includes first 1,000 bf plus mileage. That keeps me from traveling to saw 1-2 logs but some customers either can't or don't want to load the log and pay that rate even if less than 1,000 bf but they know that. Lots of times they will bring a beam or two to resaw which is often 2-3 cuts and dome. If I don't hit a nail I often don't even charge but they usually tip as much or more than I'd have charged. I don't care one way or another as I made a new friend (You can never have too many friends) and I made someone else happy and I'll make it up on the next job for them or a referral or just keep it in the Paid forward account to help offset some others did for me.

  BTW - lots of folks like the big jobs. I greatly prefer the 1-2 day go, get done, get paid and bring my mill and tools home the same day.

[SawyerTed]

Per hour or per board foot, I still say make sure your rate covers expenses.  Include your wages as expenses - that should go without saying but I've heard a couple of local guys say they couldn't make any money at portable milling.  Their rates didn't account for all of their expenses. 

Milling for hire does require good communication skills to make sure the customer understands what's involved and what they must do/provide. 

Of course a sawyer has the right to lower rates or discount at anytime.  I do on occasion give a discount on an especially good day of production due to good help, extra equipment, lunch provided or even an especially friendly group.  In the same vein, if I'm having a difficult day with the mill or I make a mistake or two, I'll give a discount as well.  Downtime that's on me or the mill never gets charged. 

[Southside]

It's like anything - you get what you pay for.  An employee of mine does some homesteading with his family and decided to get out of pigs recently and wanted to harvest and sell what they had.  I gave him the contact info for the place we take all of our meat to that needs inspection, he called, then found "a cheaper guy".  Last Monday when he came in he said they will "never do that again".  I guess it was a total mess, they are not sure they got their meat back, they had to go back twice as somehow "he missed some out back", etc, etc, etc.  

[BigTX]

Doc:  I plan to start as a hobby as well.  Do you think you have done enough to break even on your mill, and if so, how long would you guess it took you to break even just on the mill.  I realize it takes some longer than others, depending on the plan, how long it takes to build skill demand in the area, etc.  I just thought I would gather one data point.  SawyerTed brings up a good point about working for free.  When I was young, I made this mistake.  I lived at home, and as a kid, I did not have expenses, so I used the mentality of working for much less.  In the end, I could have made just as much money with less overall work if I had just charged the going rate, plus it was then hard to raise prices on current customers.  It took me stepping away for a while before I could reenter the market again at the going rate. The point being, if it works out to be a business, it will be much harder to raise prices for your current customer base. I can see how the bring logs to me option can really help motivate good help and preparedness if for no other reason than they have things to do and want to get in and get out quickly.   

[BigTX]

I should be able to get lots of practice, given that I have a good non-paying customer in need of lots of work...my wife.  She wants the tractor barn to be board and batten along with the small guest house we have.  I told her that metal on the barn goes up much faster, but apparently it does not fit the motif.  Her motif, my sweat apparently. This should provide me with lots of practice.

[doc henderson]

It can be like buying a car.  It does not make money, but it gets you to where you need to go.  It might take you back and forth to work, and on vacation.  So, I am not trying to make money.  I have got tons of pleasure with the mill.  somedays I need to cut something up, I go find a log and enjoy myself.  My mill is red, and I told my wife I could have got a red convertible and been running around town.  she generally knows where i am and what I am doing.  I paid about 27 K just over ten years ago.  I wanted one for 15 years before that.  There has been some repairs and of course consumables.  Now I look at new price and I got it for half the new price.  It averages not about 2,500 bucks each of those years.  or 7 bucks a day.  I help out a lot of friends and co-workers.  I have a few coworker/friends that are woodworkers and every so often Mike will give me a hundo or two.  i do not really keep track.  Someone I do not know that I believe can easily afford it, I tell them "I usually charge such and such".  I do a lot for free.  So, if you can pay something along those line, it helps make up for the free stuff and I hope to break even.  they often pay that and round up a bit.  A nurse mom whose son is getting married who brings her husband and younger daughter along, we mill up a small log and it turns into a family project for the son's new wife as a wedding present.  It turns into a memory that family will have forever.  The teen daughter really did not want to be there, and I teased her some, let her run a few levers on the mill, and she ended up having a good time.  I have known the nurse mom for over thirty years.  Any money there would have taken away from what I got out of that.  Many of my projects, I custom mill for so I get "free" material custom made to my specs.  I have made tons of friends.   Any money I do get is just a bonus, since I really like and sometime "need" to run my sawmill.  So yes, I have more than broke even.  I do have a day job that chips in as well.  So you do you and decide if you want to make some money or have a great hobby.  I think you can do both.  to really pay for everything and make a little, you probably have to treat it more like a business, but that does not mean you cannot have a good time and help a few folks out along the way.  good luck.

[Old Greenhorn]

Having recently gone through something very similar to this and now coming out the other end of it (mostly), I can share a little about what I think I learned. Background, I got my manual mill around the end of 2018 and milled wood for myself to build 'stuff' and make saleable products. I donated a bunch of it to others in need as I learned (with a LOT of help from the crew here). When I began selling, I thought this would be a fair part of my income from this 'sideline job'. I priced my wood fairly low ($1.25/BF) because it was not kiln dried. Air dried 'some' at best. Well I found the cheap price brought out he cheap folks and I also had a nasty habit of making friends and throwing in 'extras' frequently.
In June 2020 I retired during the heat of the plague, not a great time to ramp up a business at all. I learned by then how hard it was to 'produce' for inventory on a manual mill. But I pushed out some lumber for the drying racks as I could and began to improve my woodworking skills, which were in desperate need of improvement, again with a lot of help from this here crew. Early stuff was priced fairly cheap, but as I got better and these products took more time to get looking nice, my prices went up, sales were (are) slower but a sale does bring in a nice amount. Last year I began doing shows to get my name spread around and made some decent sales. During this time I also kept my eyes peeled for any other possibilities and around 2021 I tried my hand at cutting and selling Mushroom logs to growers.  It took 3 years but this is now profitable and a fair chunk of my annual income. I had never even thought of that when I started, but it pays to keep  an open mind. Turns out, to the best of my knowledge, I am the only business in NYS that does this as part of their regular business income and takes it seriously. There are only 5 sellers in NYS registered with Cornell as sellers. I have been turning down large orders I can't handle lately.

So now looking back: When my lumber got better and I tried to raise prices, it was very hard and I learned folks only bought from me because I was the cheapest. When I wasn't, they didn't come back much. Which is fine with me. Cutting for stock just never works out, they want whatever you don't have. If I had known, I would have started with a market price BUT given everyone a discount to bring that way down. As I improved, I could just make it less of a discount. Also, I still give away 'extras' and that goes a long way toward making each client feel a little special, relaxes the relationship, and costs me very little. I learned as the business progressed where I could make money and 'adjusted' my work toward that. Today, direct lumber sales are nearly non-existent, Furniture builds and such are doing 'OK', but seasonal mostly, and Mushroom logs sales are doing well but that work is very rough on my body (nursing an injury as I type this and headed out this morning to try and finish an order even though I am a hurtin' pup right now). It continues to evolve as time goes on.
If I had one point, it would be to pay attention to the lessons the universe teaches you as you go forward and don't be afraid to make adjustments, even major ones. You may just get steered into something you never thought of.
I don't kow if any of this is helpful, but that's my 2 cents.

[longtime lurker]

I would say that if you've got little to no experience and aren't really sure if you're going to enjoy milling then the best thing to do would be tail out for someone for a couple days or even weeks. Plenty guys here would jump at some free help in exchange for giving you a taste to see if you like it or not along with you getting the opportunity to learn from someone experienced. Hey it costs you a week of your life and some gas and accommodation - that's pretty cheap if you ask me compared to buying a mill and finding out you don't like it, along with saving the value of the logs you'll chew up making rookie mistakes teaching yourself.

And one thing I've learnt along the way of teaching others to saw is that regardless of how much you like it or not: some guys have a natural aptitude for sawing and other guys just don't. And it's far better to learn that before you start shelling money out on equipment.

And what this does is get you away from one of the biggest mistakes people make, which is finding out they like it enough to want to have a serious crack at making it into a full time or serious part time gig and only having an entry level saw at hand. See, for all the talk of rates and pay yourself a wage the fact remains that lumber is a commodity and most people will not pay you that much more than what they could buy the same product from the hardware store just to say it came from a tree they cut down. And it's pretty near impossible to be competitive with a basic entry level mill. That's why they call them Hobby mills after all... they aren't really aimed at customers looking to make a dollar out of them so much as guys who want the satisfaction of sawing up the occasional log. Thing being of course that any mill capable enough of paying not just it's way but your way as well means shelling out a fair bit more coin, even second hand. Which is why I suggest investing a couple weeks into learning if you want to do this on someone else's machine rather than your own.

Like a lot of these guys I bought a mill that was just supposed to be a sideline. I had half a plan but I also had enough of a background around sawmills to step straight up at that. But business didn't go quite as planned, the niche market stuff didn't sell around here for anywhere near what it sells elsewhere, I couldn't do the volumes to interest the wholesale buyers further away, and I am too stubborn to quit at anything I like. And people kept coming to me for construction hardwood, where I had to compete with some of the largest operations in the country to make it pay, albeit with some freight advantage as none of those big mills are located close to me. I had a lucas mill and yanno that saw would have been fine for plan A, but was completely inadequate for plan B. And it takes a fair bit of beating yourself to death with a slow mill to buy a faster one but as I said I'm mule stubborn and not afraid to sweat to make it happen.

7 years with a Lucas mill to the first twin saw, three years with that to the second twin saw, now I'm actively looking for a serious production sawmill because I can sell wood faster than my crew can saw it. We chew up logs at a great rate of knots and still buy in lumber to fill the gaps, and are quite possibly the largest operation in the top end of the state and more importantly probably the most profitable. Seeing 100k on the bottom of a quote dont even make me bat an eyelid anymore.... it's a long way from being one guy trying to punch out enough to keep a roof over my head with a Swingmill I can tell ya.

So anyway, decide if you like it and then buy used and buy more mill than you think you need is my advice. You just might need it, and if you don't well hydraulics make the job more pleasant and add considerably to the resale value if you want out later.

[WV Sawmiller]

    Sawing for your free (Wife) customer is not a bad thing. You get the practice, build confidence and "may" be forgiven for mistakes (As long as you saw another board for her). Many of us took our first "practice" boards and built our sawmill or lumber sheds or other rough projects and can look at them and see our mistakes but still say "Hey, it works for what I'm using it for."  At first I never tried to saw something new for a customer that I had not tried at home on a low value scrap type log. Later if someone asked me to do something new and different such as sawing a burl or such I'd tell them "I have never sawed one but I am willing to try if you want to risk it. It might be beautiful and it may just shatter when I try to clamp it." Then if they wanted Id try and usually it worked well and if not I still learned from it and the customer was not upset as he was forewarned.

    Remember too that some some of the most valuable lumber you will saw may well be free to your customer but the smile on some kids face or some old man as you saw a bench out a fallen tree he planted with his Grandpa as a kid is worth way more than greenbacks. I get the impression that is a lot of Doc's compensation from his description.

[doc henderson]

Howard, you should see my first bench I made with the first practice log I sawed when they brought my mill.

[RAYAR]

Howard, you should see my first bench I made with the first practice log I sawed when they brought my mill.

It's probably got enough curves to be comfortable. ;)

[WV Sawmiller]

Howard, you should see my first bench I made with the first practice log I sawed when they brought my mill.

If you'd like I can show you haw to put it back on the mill and make the legs all level.

[doc henderson]

You do not understand Howard, you would have to change the angle ect, and even you cannot do that well on a sawmill.  I was going to say you are probably the leading expert on fixing crappy benches,   but of course that is not true and seemed a little too mean, even for me.  all in fun!  
If it will make you feel better, I will take a few pics.  

[doc henderson]

OK, you asked for it.  I have made prob 200 benches since these first two.  they serve as a reminder.  that is why I do not fix them.  yes, I needed better back up for the through mortices.  that is why I do not do that anymore.  the angles are more uniform with my radial drill press setup.  



a little stack of benches I have kept.



a little three-legged bench #2











my first bench.  crooked legs and all.  

[doc henderson]

What up Benches? - Page 10 (forestryforum.com)