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Going Full Time

Started by McCormack, December 28, 2007, 12:00:54 AM

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McCormack

Hi Folks,
I have been sawing part time with my manual mill here in Gilmanton New Hampshire for about 5 years now and am looking into going full time starting in may. I am planing on selling the manual and getting a hydraulic mill to increase production capability. I have been able to pick up work off and on with the manual without much effort or advertising. Can anyone give me any ideas on how to research the maket for mobile sawmilling demand in my area? I want to make sure that the mill I purchase will be well matched to the amount of work I will be able to pick up.

Any advise?

Thanks!
Jeff

Jeff

Man McCormack, It sure seems that if you have been doing it part time there in that area, that that would be about the best way to research it. I'd dare say if your considering going at it full time, then you must already have a pretty good clue or you wouldn't even consider it.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

McCormack

Thanks Jeff, I guess I have a little bit of an idea I can keep the manual mill busy part time cutting about 1000 bf per month on average. I just hope if I buy an LT50 or LT70 I will be able to keep the thing busy enough.   

logwalker

Well my observation is this:  a 1000 bf a month is a long way from the approx. 2000 bf a day that those mills are easily capable of. Add to that your area may be heading into a slowdown due to hardwood prices. I would sharpen my pencil and look long and hard before giving up my day job. How many other mills do you know of in the area? I am not trying to discourage you, just playing the devils advocate. Joe
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

Bibbyman

Are you planning to work alone?  Or do you plan to have crew?  Or do you plan to have the customer provide help?  Are you planning to only custom mobile saw?

The reasons I ask is that an LT50 or LT70 will well outperform one person. (Can you move and stack 3,000 bf of lumber in a day plus offbear and saw?)  An LT40 standard hydraulic can saw fast enough to wear one person out.  The LT40 Super adds faster hydraulics and other more powerful features including larger engine options and can work two people right into the ground when run at optimum speed.

Between the LT50 and LT70 - I'd go for the LT50 if I were going to do mobile sawing.  It has nearly all the features and power as the LT70 but is easier and quicker to set up. 

If I planned to do a LOT of sawing in one place and max performance was needed then the LT70 would edge out the LT50 due to its better head design and larger band wheels. 

The LT70 is better adapted to work with out feed systems in a pure production setting with power conveyers, sorters, edgers, etc. than the LT40 or LT50.  But if you're mobile sawing with no support equipment,  it won't be that important.

How much money will it take for you to make a living?  (You don't need to answer that here.)   I ask this because we went from two professional income jobs to running our sawmill business full time.  We don't make near as much income as our office jobs would be providing but we've made a life style decision to live on less money.

I'm with Jeff on the area research question.  Looks like you know you have had success on getting word of mouth business.  That's a good sign.  You may go find your local state forestry agent and talk to him/her.  They may have some assessment as to the potential needs and markets in the area.

Do you have a good wife with a good day job and benefits?   If the answer is yes, SHOOT YEA! Go for it!  :)



Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

york

Jeff,i was milling logs,when times were good....and i kept my day job...firefighter,city of Ithaca,ny and thank God i did....You are only 39 and must have kids....Keep your job....Buy the 50,anyhow...Bert
Albert

Captain

Jeff, I've been sawing here in MA part time for several years.  I've been sawing about 5-6MBF per month on weekends, and in the summertime we build small outbuildings as well. 

I've been hesitant to make the move to full time without a job with benefits, as I have a wife and son to worry about.  So I took a big move and compledted Paramedic School last year and am on my way to a full time firefighter/paramedic job here in the near future.  At that time, my "side business" will become a more full time venture, just with an irregular schedule, and the full time job with the big company will go away. 

It is a tough decision as I like my full time job now, and really enjoy what I do.  The pay scale is tough, and there is really nowhere for me to go there.  I've always had more of an entrepreneur spirit anyhow.  There are a lot of subcontracting options related to my current full time job that can supplement as well.  I guess what I am saying is that I'm afraid of relying on the sawmill(  in a scenario where I am sawing for others ) solely for my income, and also afraid that the physical nature and pace of the work will break my body before its time.....BTW, we're almost the same age.

I commend you for your spirit, and I'll try to help you in any way that I can with questions. 

Captain


bandmiller2

Mac,the quickest way to ruin something you love to do, is to make a full time business out of it.It takes a good job to support a sawmill,or a farm for that matter.Keep the security,buy the mill you want,and augment your income with it.Sorry to be a wet blanket,good luck wichever.Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Brad_S.

Some good advice so far.
Mills around here are folding up left and right. I'm still standing, but just barely and I don't know for how long. You mention you cut 1000 boardfeet a month, you need to cut that much before lunch 5 or 6 days a week to make it. It's hard work, doesn't matter if it's 15° or 95° outside, you need to be at it. IMO, if you have any sort of decent job right now, stay at it and ramp up your side milling jobs. Admittedly, my head is in a bad place at the moment, but I must say I rue the day I chose sawmilling as a full time job.
Still, if you want to try it, here is just a small list of some things to think about: What do you want to primarily offer, sawn lumber for sale or custom sawing others logs? What type of product are you going to offer, hardwoods or softwood construction lumber. You can't be everything to everybody. Niche sawing or specializing in one type of product or service is a better way to go. Can you get a reliable supply of logs at a decent price? How are other mills in your area doing? How many other millers are portable and what are they charging? Can you live on the types of wages you see your competitors making? Do you have a waiting list of people you need to saw for or are you currently caught up? If your weekends are booked for the next two months, maybe you do have enough demand in your area to make it. Best of luck.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

Mr Mom

Could you go down to like four days a week at your day job and saw the others??
That way you could keep your job and benifits.

Thanks Alot Mr Mom

slidecreekdan

Lots of good advice here Jeff.
  Its getting harder to make a living at just milling. Pencil it out.
  Mills are not cheep, but with enough work, well!!!!!!!!!!
  You will make the right choice.
                Good Luck

customsawyer

I have run both the LT70 and the LT40 and I would have to agree with Bibbyman on this one. If you have lots of support equipment (tractor with FEL, skidsteer loader, or back-hoe for moving the logs, edger, at least 2 men that like to get worked into the ground and at least 4000 bf of wood to cut per day) than you will be better off with the LT40. With out all this extra equipment than you will have a hard time taking advantage of the LT70 higher out put. I am not up to speed with the LT50 so I can't say about it.
I would not want to discourage any one from the dream of doing it on there own but this whole country is going into hard times and this might not be the best time to go out on that limb as some one might cut it off. smiley_chop
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

ErikC

    Here in Northern CA we are seeing the same economy slowdown. It will affect a sawmill buisiness of any sort.
But a couple things I've noticed are these:
  Custom sawing is usually a good value for the customer, and in harder times this may attract some who just thought it was to much work compared to a lumberyard. Farmers, resorts, etc. who rely on thier facilities always provide work as well. So if it's mobile sawing you do, there may still be lots of work.
  If you do good work at a fair price you will be the last one in buisiness, even in the worst recession.

  That being said, have you built such a reputation yet? I'm sure you're working on it, but now's not the time to build it. I am completely self employed, my wife works part time. We 
make a good living, but all our eggs aren't in one basket. I have the the milling buisiness, operate heavy equipment, and shoe horses. Can you find a similar combination that works well for you? Believe me, you will need them all sooner or later.

Whatever you do go at it with a good attitude, work hard, and you will succeed!

Erik
Peterson 8" with 33' tracks, JCB 1550 4x4 loader backhoe, several stihl chainsaws

dail_h

   Custom sawing market dried up here a year ago,completely dead. That's why my mill is in WV. Would've lost it if it hadn't been for oldest's daughter's boss.He's really good to saw for,but I've still lost some flexibility. Spent most of the morning with lender trying to save forklift. Still not sure how that's going to play out.Got skinned pretty good by three reclaimed lumber dealers in the last year diddn't help either.
   What I'm really trying to say is,as long as the income from sawing is extra,it looks much better than it does when that's your entire income.Would I do It again? BOY YOU BETCHA!!! I'll work this out somehow and ,go on,just kinda tough now. Just don't load yourself up too heavy,and be ready to roll with the flow. Try really hard to hang onto some cushion cash for unexpected stuff.
World Champion Wildcat Sorter,1999 2002 2004 2005
      Volume Discount At ER
Singing The Song Of Circle Again

Kelvin

firefighters & paramedics go good with part time job as you have blocks of time when you are off.  If you have bennies and make enough with the one job, you shouldn't be too bad upgrading the mill.  I would however find a good used one to start with.  Once you have outrown it you will know better what you need, and most of the depreciation will be gone.  There seems to be a lot of mills on "sawmill exchange" website for sale.  Kinda makes you wonder why, but you never know.  Some will do better when the economy slows down than others. 

I've been trying to sell lumber which is very hard and requires a lot of schmucking around with people i don't like.  People who have to chop you down to make their business work.  I don't like this aspect.  Sawing for others makes the most, and easiest money for me, but its also stressful.  You are off site and have to rely on them for certain unknowns, log handeling, lumber off bearing you name it.  It gets to me a bit.  I've never advertised really and insurance is a bear.  i just spent $2,400 on insurance which doesn't cover me sawing off site, and i told them i make about $8-$10k per year with the woodworking.  It will all pile up on you if you start a business, especially if you need employees.  To make the same as $40k at an office job you might have to gross over $100k if you have employees and lots of capital overhead.  I've got a friend who works 80 hrs a week, has 6-12 employees doing landscape work.  he grosses about $400k, and keeps less than $40k a year.  Hes got a fleet of equipment and it eats everything up.  I've been trying to run my sawmill part time for 5 years and full time for one year.  This year is the worst so far, a lot of my customers have disappeared from the internet sales which is was really relying on.  Don't put all your eggs in one basket is my motto now!!!  I've made $3 an hour or so for the last entire year.  I've got lots of lumber so i may still sell it some day, but as of yet i haven't decided to just give it away to get rid of it.  I will sell off all my equipment and still sell my lumber slowly over time.  I'm not working for peanuts and then giving it away.

I still believe this business is a bit like farming.  You invest tons of money, work real hard, lots of hours in the hopes of just making it.  I don't know who still decides to go into farming but in either business, sawmilling or farming you need connections to survive.  People with connections survive no matter what.  Doing it all on your own from the ground up is a world of work and risk.  I'll let you know how it goes in 6 mons or so.
Good luck, and remember my biggest advice on this...  buy used and as small as you can get by with.  LT40 with one or 2 people is plenty.
KP

WH_Conley

I went full time about 3 years ago, working more hours for less money. It is not easy. I don't just mean the work either.
Bill

bull

Diversify, If your going fulltime you need to have multipule avenues of income.
I sell (Bark mulch and Ground slabwood ) (firewood Bulk and Bagged) Compost,Manure,Sawdust,Fruit and Vegetables,tractor work,snowplowing and more !!!!
I left a fulltime job of twelve year with great benefits.... All shift work and after twenty year of shift work splits, 2nd and 3rd shift enough was enough and Im not looking back !!!

Lumber has slowed, firewood was good, bark mulch was great, We opened a farm stand and went to a farmers market on fridays with three acres of vegetable and will expand to five acres next year. also have been building sheds,Bird feeders and dog houses. 

Yes i am a farmer, Here in Massachusetts the law say's all acts of lumbering and forestry is agriculture so, guess what we are all farmers

MikeH

 Wow, :)great post all! I have a lt70 and it is just as fast to set up as the lt50,but I dont have remote set-up with it, that is what takes longer. That being said, knowing what I do now. I think I would buy the lt50 ::). As far as full time sawmilling, I can only agree with the others.
There is a small(circle) sawmill down the road that does 10,000bdft. a day and they are struggling.
I make good money custom sawing at their site, but that is about 3 times a month if I'm lucky and that might make a payment. My fulltime job supports my milling habits.

Firebass

McCormack,  I too respect your spirit and wish you good luck.   I have ran a successfull small buisness machine shop for 10 years now.   I just have one word "OVERHEAD" if you have too much, you'll never survive the slow times and they will happen. 

Firebass


Brucer

If you're planning to work alone and you want to buy new, I'd suggest a standard LT40 hydraulic. If you find you can't keep up with the demand you'll have no trouble selling it -- that's gotta be one of the easiest mill to sell second hand. Figure on 10% depreciation after one year. I don't know what the figures are like for other brands, but the basic hydraulic mill seems to be a big re-seller.

If you buy a bigger mill to get more production, you're going to find you're making more lumber -- and staging more logs, and making more slabs, and doing more edging, and shoveling more sawdust. All that "extra" stuff eats into your sawing time unless you've got someone else to do it for you.

I've increased the production on my hydraulic mill be adding some inexpensive home-made material handling equipment. Anything that speeds up that non-revenue work gives you more capacity for a lot less dollars.

Mind you, if you simply "want" an LT70 with a remote station and you've got the bucks, go for it. There's lots of folks around here who have more $$ invested in snowmobiles, ATV's, ski-boats, dirt bikes, and trailers to haul them all than an LT70 would cost ;D.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

DanG

McCormack, you've been getting some good advice here, but I'll throw in my 2¢W anyway.  Look at yourself and be sure of just what your motivation is.  Is it that you want to saw lumber for a living, or just want to get out of your current situation.  Either one is enough reason to make the move, but you have to be brutally honest with yourself.  If you can hang on to your current job for a while longer, it might be best to go ahead and upgrade the mill before you quit.  That way you can get it paid down a bit before you make the big move.  Once you've done that, turn up the juice big time on your part-time business.  If you can only saw on Saturday, you need to be turning out 1500-2000 bf consistently EVERY Saturday before you even consider quitting the day job.  You can restack, clean up, sharpen blades and do your maintenance after work the rest of the week.

Also, take a close look at your lifestyle.  Are you going to be able to cut back when the work just ain't there?  How's your Wife's income/benefits?  How big is your mortgage.  Are your vehicles paid for?  How much do you owe on other things?  What skills and assets do you have to help supplement your business?(see Bull's post for suggestions :) )  How are you at self-motivation?  If you're gonna saw at home, what support equipment do you have?

Do you plan to have employees?  If so, treat them very, very well.  Make sure they are happier with you than they have ever been.  I was talking to a buddy yesterday who has a lawn service down in the Miami area.  He has a Haitian(legal) guy working for him.  He pays him $12/hr while the competition is paying $8, and he pays him for vacation.  The guy is always there, always on time, and works his fanny off.  He's a happy camper.

Another thing to consider is, what will you do if the milling business just doesn't work out?  Are you in a field where you can step right back in if you need to?  If you have the mill at least partially paid for, it will be easier to step out of it if you have to.  That goes back to the first thing I suggested. ;)

Read this whole thread several times and see how many red flags pop up.  If there ain't too many, then go for it, but go wisely.
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Jeff

Welcome to the Forum!

Basically, it's all been said.  All I am doing is doing a summary which agrees with what I have been seeing in my area.  Several have stopped full-time sawing for three basic reasons:  1) They got older, so the physicality of the work was no longer suitable; 2) Consistent work was not there for portable work; 3)  Benefits of working for the other guy were just too attractive.

I will stick to three words as well, with a few comments on each:

A)  Value-added
            I have noticed, repeatedly, that sawing a little means much more, if you take
            that product, dry it, mold it, or, best of all, completely convert that wood into
            the final end product.

B)  Overhead
            I am just echoing here, but it is well worth the "ink."  Right now everything I
            use in my part time milling operation is paid for.  My only help is part time and
            procured only when I need it.  If I am not sawing, the only overhead I have is
            rust and wood that may be getting wet or bug eaten.
C)  Scale
            The scale of an operation makes all the difference.  Matching your techniques;
            your equipment; your man-power; your markets and supply - everything -
            links to the scale of your operation.  Advertising?  Yes, that too.  For example,
            word of mouth is always best. The next contender is free public interest stories
            about you in the newspaper.  When you try to click up in scale and go from a
            couple thousand bd. ft. to full time, you face the temptation to build scale more quickly
            by means of wasted advertising dollars.  It is better to invest your person in the form
            of hand shakes, meet-'n'-greets, and getting to know the who's-who's.

My situation is simple:  My piano work is very flexible.  I can schedule this higher-dollar
work to fit around the sawing.  On the other hand, I have to keep in mind that there is no way
that my sawdust addiction can pay like the piano work, unless a long, long series of good connections,
excellent decisions, and favorable happenstance could justify a major up-tick in my scale.  I don't
see that around my area, so the mix of work I have now shall continue.

Why not tune pianos full time, and let that be it?

Cause I am truly addicted to sawdust!  AMEN!
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Cedarman

To add to the great advice given I will add a few things.
You must become expert at running a business.
You must become an expert at marketing, at selling, at research, at public relations, at maintenance, etc.

If you take a look at all the info on this forum, you will see that there is a huge amount of education that one must have to make sawmilling a successful business.
A little thing like phone manners can make or break a business.
This is just one tiny thing among the thousands of details that make a business thrive over others.
Sawmillers are usually one or two man shows and the more knowledge that you can obtain over time and put into practice  the more success there will be.

As I tell my new sawyers,  I can have you sawing cedar by the end of today, you will still be learning to saw cedar for years.  Making lumber is the easy part, getting the greatest economic value from every log in the most efficient manner possible is the hard part.

Just some general philosophy. 
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

ARKANSAWYER

   I know very little about this whole deal.  I have only been doing it for 7 years, have sawn over 2 million bdft on a LT40 and just $300k in the hole right now.   Life is good and I a loving it!
   Go to SAWMILL EXCHANGE and look at all the millls for sale.  See if any are in your area.  Get the info and call and see what the deal was.  You will soon learn whey the quite or went under.
   Now as for sawing if you are going solo then a LT40HDD34 would be all the mill you need with a debarker and 50 or so blades and some LogRite cant hooks.  (get the ARKY special)  Will need a good truck to drag it around and 4x4 is prefered.
  But what has been left out is if you saw 2000 bdft a day that is 10,000 lbs  :o that must be moved and stacked, then add in about 4,000 lbs of slabs.   I know because I have done it for weeks in and weeks out and moving 35 tons a week by hand is not a job for the weak (Thank GOD for grits) or crippled.
  But I say go for it because you are still young and can recover if all else fails.  ( Misery loves company)

ARKANSAWYER

Brucer

... and when things are going bad (as they will), and you're feeling down (which you will), and you're wondering why on earth you got into this DanG fool business, something will happen to lift your spirits ... and you'll KNOW this is why you do this :).

Might be a red-tailed hawk drifting over the mill; might be a deer poking its head through the bushes; might be a rainbow spread across the horizon (nice bit of propaganda, Arky ;D).
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

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