Logging Our Property Questions

[Iwawoodwork]

Talk to your wife about chipping the slash/ tops and putting it  back into the forest or on the trails, also you both need to visit  some recently logged sites to understand that if any type of machinery is used in the process the forest floor will be disturbed. It will not have a park like look when harvesting is done, there will be ruts, humps and dips from machines moving the logs. Remember the logger is there to make a profit/money not to take time to build a park unless compensated for it.
For what I read of what you want the way to get those results is to get a forester then after the foresters report you can take your time and do it yourself the way you/wife want it to look.

[BargeMonkey]

 I've never seen much bad information on here, what StaveBuyer said was 100%. I make the joke to landowners that cutting a woodlot is alot like a certain adult experience 😆, hopefully both parties are happy after it's done but sometimes one isnt and then it gets ugly. 

 I deal with ALOT of people, walk woodlots that have been hammered and mismanaged, 90% of these people see trees and believe they have big bucks coming, the TV shows didnt do this industry any justice. 
 
 Full tree has its place, CTL with good operators can look just as nice. The "parasites" down here make such a mess I've got a niche thing going of a "clean swept" woodlot or piled brush in spots and honestly the landowners prefer it, is it the healthiest no, but we have so much underbrush here that I dont disagree with it because I've worked jobs that have burned in the past and I wouldn't leave it in my woods. 

 Hire a forester. It's going to cost you 12-20% ? Of the sale, down here they aren't cheap, not sure what Maine is. It's to easy to get burned, left a mess, the forester is your protection and buffer, make sure there is a reasonable bond posted, 3-5k bucks in cash is normal here on a bigger job. I sat having lunch with one of the foresters I work with last fall, he flat out said he wants to keep working with the 5-6 guys he regularly does because he knows what to expect, we have MUTANTS down here, weekend warrior smash and grab, over the property lines, bogus insurance, cut the best and run type stuff, anyone who cuts any volume of wood reputably is even normally referred by a forester, dont take it as "bad" collusion but unfortunately that's the way it works and it works for a reason because they dont want their names attached to a mess. If a logger tells you hes 6-12months out thats a good thing. Ask for proof of Comp, liability, yrs in business, again most reputable guys cutting wood are decent but the last thing you want is to get a half wit who hammers your woodlot. That being said also realize that wood isnt worth the fortune everyone thinks, pulp / firewood / lowgrade dont pay enough to bother with sometimes. 

 That's the look they want here, but I tell the landowner in spots it's getting smashed, turning corners. Hire someone with a buncher or processor if possible, yeah a little more gets cut but you dont have the smash like hand cutting. 
 

 some old slash from last time I was in here but that's what they want, wide open ATV trails, probably 3 miles of trails in here by the time I get done. 

[thecfarm]

Welcome to the forum.
Yes, on walking past logging sites!!!! Bring the wife too.  ;)  I don't know loggers down in your area. 
There is one guy here, just a few miles from me, I would not even let him walk on my land.  :    What he did not cut down, he either drove over it, or knocked it down with another tree.
I had my land logged 3 times so far. I could and can't keep up with it. The slash was left behind. Just about anything 4 inches and up was used for pulp. This was done with a harvester and a forwarder. There was a chainsaw used too on the big ones. Would be impossible to drive a jeep on the trials they used. I did clean up a lot of slash for fire wood, but that takes A LOT of time. There are guys out there that have chippers. Tops are all are brought out of the woods. I have seen that done here. A nice look and the woods are clear to drive around on.
As stated by another poster, look at past work sites so you know how yours will look. Bring the wife too. 
I have a hobby of stopping and looking at logged sites.
And if a logger says they will be there in 2 weeks, tell them don't bother. Most should be busy for at least 6 months. 

[Krackle_959]

As part of your tree growth program you should be able to put those open acres / fields into agricultural use and get the tax advantage, at least you used to be able to do so.  

You are correct fields can be put into agricultural use for the tax advantage. The problem is now the are checking to make sure people are producing the $2,500.00 year in farm income to keep the agricultural tax status. Most people sell the hay off the land, or lease it to a farmer to put year old calves on to get the income. I did learn selling firewood is not considered agricultural use and no longer counts.

[Krackle_959]

BargeMonkey:  The percentage for a forester up here from the one I talked to was 10%-15% depending on the lot, what needs to be done like property lines, plans, etc. They are also the buffer to protect the owner, and keep everything on the up and up.

There are definitely hacks here, the lot to the north of my property was cut in the winter based on stump heights (2'-4' high) and the amount of slash left. They came in with skidders and mowed down all of the small trees and only took the big hemlocks, beech, and red oak trees. The slash if you want to call it that is anything 8"minus including a lot of young trees just pushed over and driven across, not even cut. It is about waist high right now, and bad enough the local snowmobile club spent weeks cleaning out the trail. 

[Krackle_959]

Thanks thecfarm. The wife will want to look at previous logging sites to see how they are left, and talking to the clients to make sure they were happy with everything. In my industry as well if someone isn't booked for 6 months to a year, thats a bad sign. Once in awhile people need work, but there should be plenty out there for everyone right now. 



We are not looking for a park like appearance, but at the same time don't want it to look like a bomb went off either. We know the trails will get trashed and rutted up from the logging, that's not that big of an issue. I can bring home a D5 and spend a couple days smoothing it all out, and restoring the trails. There are also several companies that have forestry mulchers either on skidsteers or dedicated machines that we may have come in and grind all of the slash if that's the way we go. It might be the best solution have the slash left and then grind it in the trails. If needed a dozer could still be brought home, but from the sites I have seen the forestry mulchers do a pretty good job at smoothing things out.



It might also be a good excuse to get a 8" chipper for the back of my tractor, just because. Jeeping is in my wife's blood, so that can't change she has a 1942 GPW that is fully restored, she has driven it since she was 15 after restoring it with her dad. We also have a 1946 CJ 2A that is our woods jeep, but both go trail riding.

[WDH]

From what I have read here, I question why select cut the property at all unless there is a compelling need for money?   Nothing says that you have to cut it at all on its own merit.  Nature is perfectly happy to do its thing without any help from you.  
Logging is a very intrusive process.  Having a beautifully aesthetic property and logging do not go hand in hand.  Logging is disturbance and disturbance is change.  You could spend your time and resources cleaning up the property and getting it into the shape you want without the intrusion of big machines and the resulting debris and disturbance from logging. 
From what you have stated about your goals, it does not seem that making maximum $ from timber production is high on your list.  So, think through and examine your goals.  No one is holding a gun to your head to bring on a harvest. 

[nativewolf]

Second what WDH says:  Typically we ask clients to view 3 legs of a triangle/stool: Ecological Sustainability/Asset Value/Income.  If you push anyone leg very hard than it will fall over.  Often harvest  are actually asset sales in disguise.  They create income but asset diminution may exceed the income.   

Not sure what the climax species are for your forest, here in Virginia it would likely be a beech/yellow poplar forest with out fire or a mixed oak/hickory with fire.  Maybe in some mountain coves we had hemlock forest before the pests wiped them out, in really cold areas maybe sugar maple.  

As Danny says if you leave it alone all you are doing is foregoing a bit of early disruption for a slow gradual transition to a climax forest, climax forest look great.  Nothing wrong with them at all.  In fact the increase in asset value (property value) might trump any income.

[PoginyHill]

As @nativewolf says, a good management plan will incorporate all of the landowners goals. It is not simply a plan to cut trees. But there may be some goals that cannot be fully realized in parallel, and some compromise will likely need to be considered. Selective cuts are not pretty, but long term the mess fades away and a more healthy forest results. Goals also have a time-frame - sometimes a short term compromise to achieve a more important long-term goal. If you don't want the slash from a cutting job, you probably don't want to see dead and diseased trees falling from natural death either. If the aesthetics of your forest are paramount, then maybe a very limited cut of at-risk trees using a team or horses is the ticket - there are plenty of options. There may be several unique stands within a 150 acre parcel, warranting different treatment for each. Maybe some goals can be met in one stand and other goals on another.
It may be worthwhile to "interview" several foresters to see who can best understand your goals and work with you. You'll may need to pay a $/hr fee for that, however.

[mike_belben]

As the old adage goes, if you want it done right you better do it yourself.  


The more desire you have to achieve a specific outcome the less likely you are to get it from a contractor.  Especially one who has to pay YOU a share out of the mill proceeds, which is a pay format that specifically encourages corners cut, mistakes unfixed, high grading, smashed and rubbed keeper trees, shortcut trailbraids and everything else.



Sure oprah probably has an epic forest but i bet shes paying hourly for a logger to play landscaper.  Im not saying you cant win this hand, but statistically it would be wise to prepare for dissapointment.  I would start with a contract that says there will be no this, this, this, or this.  Hopefully enough upfront fear to prevent any hackjob from signing it.  

No matter how you slice this job i still see you doing cleanup and detailing yourself, or not getting paid much of anything.

[Southside]

Not sure what the climax species are for your forest

Probably White Pine, maybe some mixed maple hardwood on the lower ground - but that is a long time coming, popple, fir, spruce, hemlock, then the pine.   

[GAB]

This line from mike_belden to me is a great trueism  
The more desire you have to achieve a specific outcome the less likely you are to get it from a contractor.
I've remolded two houses and I found it quicker and less agrivating to buy the tools necessary and up to 300% of the material needed especially if only a small amount of something is needed and doing it myself.
Note: My wood stove has devoured many of my mistakes and rendered them to ashes.
GAB

[Woodfarmer]

As the old adage goes, if you want it done right you better do it yourself.  


The more desire you have to achieve a specific outcome the less likely you are to get it from a contractor.  Especially one who has to pay YOU a share out of the mill proceeds, which is a pay format that specifically encourages corners cut, mistakes unfixed, high grading, smashed and rubbed keeper trees, shortcut trailbraids and everything else.



Sure oprah probably has an epic forest but i bet shes paying hourly for a logger to play landscaper.  Im not saying you cant win this hand, but statistically it would be wise to prepare for dissapointment.  I would start with a contract that says there will be no this, this, this, or this.  Hopefully enough upfront fear to prevent any hackjob from signing it.  

No matter how you slice this job i still see you doing cleanup and detailing yourself, or not getting paid much of anything.

Well Mike aren't you just the optimist. There are many loggers that will do a decent job I'm sure. Those are the ones to seek out.

[barbender]

There are loggers that do great work- logging. Sometimes a landowner wants something closer to landscaping, and can't understand there isn't enough value in the timber to accomplish that (I'm not suggesting that is the case with the OP). There are also loggers that can't understand that a landowner is willing to pay them on top of the timber to make it look the way they want. I think all Mike is getting at, is that if you have a very specific vision sometimes you have to do it yourself🤷‍♂️

[Krackle_959]

Not sure what the climax species are for your forest

Probably White Pine, maybe some mixed maple hardwood on the lower ground - but that is a long time coming, popple, fir, spruce, hemlock, then the pine.  

We have a lot of red oak, white birch , maples, ash, Popple, and hemlock. There are maybe 8-10 acres of pine not as much as one would think. 

[Krackle_959]

As the old adage goes, if you want it done right you better do it yourself.  


The more desire you have to achieve a specific outcome the less likely you are to get it from a contractor.  Especially one who has to pay YOU a share out of the mill proceeds, which is a pay format that specifically encourages corners cut, mistakes unfixed, high grading, smashed and rubbed keeper trees, shortcut trailbraids and everything else.



Sure oprah probably has an epic forest but i bet shes paying hourly for a logger to play landscaper.  Im not saying you cant win this hand, but statistically it would be wise to prepare for dissapointment.  I would start with a contract that says there will be no this, this, this, or this.  Hopefully enough upfront fear to prevent any hackjob from signing it.  

No matter how you slice this job i still see you doing cleanup and detailing yourself, or not getting paid much of anything.

I get what you are saying, it's like construction work as well. You get what you pay for. If I was able to retire and could work in the woods often I might think about doing it myself. I don't mind paying more for what we want, or bringing equipment in after they are done and spending a week off from work to clean up the trails.
I think it would take a lifetime of work for one person to take on 150 acres.

[mike_belben]

To tell ya the truth, ive found this to be a pretty difficult year for optimism, and i will leave it at that. 

[snowstorm]

at first you said coastal maine. that could be kittery to eastport. that covers a lot of ground. now it says the midcoast. my wild guess would be south of the bridge in bath. if you want to put the land in tree growth to lower the taxes you will have to have a management plan written by a forester. then you should follow it. to try to use it to lower taxes without ever cutting any wood. you may not want to put all of it in tree growth. in case someday you want to give your kids a house lot. someone said 2 ft of loam? a few inches is normal. maybe a bit more in a field that has had lots of cow poop spread on it for many yrs. before getting to excited about whole tree chipping is there a chip market? with in a 100 miles? i prefer cut to length maybe because thats the gear i have. and would one be able to tell with 2 ft of snow on the ground?

[Dobie]

No way would I even think about doing anything without using a consulting forester.  Standard fee in Pa and New York is 10%.  This year we did a junk cut on our 180 acres here in Pa.  Used a reputable forester and we got $55,000 with competitive sealed bids.  We did take about a 3rd of our soft maple but a lot of that was the overgrown, gnarly, multi stemmed type.   I think we took a total of 2 oak and 3 cherry trees and they were such poor quality, I can't believe they actually took them.  Still can't believe we got that much from all the junk we had marked. Contrast that to a 170 acre property I recently looked at for an investment.  It was also recently timbered.  They guy who owns it is a doctor and he decided to use the forester from the timber company(I swear doctors think they are so smart but so many are dumb as a rock when it comes to land and timber).  He didn't want to pay the forester's 10% commission.  According to the realtor he also got $55,000 but after walking thru the woods, they took all the mature oak and cherry and from the looks of what was left, this was a high quality site.   He probably hould have made 3x that much.s

I also had our forester get a $5,000 performance bond for cleanup and to make sure all the ruts were taken out of the trails and for any damage to standing trees(be reasonable with this one).  They don't get their money back until I am satisfied(and they still haven't got it back yet).  On your size job, this is more than reasonable to ask for.


If you don't have a contract and everything in writing as well as use an independent consulting forester, good luck getting them to honor what you agreed to.  


A good place to find a good forester in your area is to contact your local AgChoice or Farm Credit who specialize in lending on land and see who they recommend.  That's how we found the top forester in our region.

[Stoneyacrefarm]

Great Job Dobie.!!
Good read here.
There are a lot of ways to tackle a situation like yours. 
You made money and still got what you wanted. 
Win win all the way around. 

[Krackle_959]

at first you said coastal maine. that could be kittery to eastport. that covers a lot of ground. now it says the midcoast. my wild guess would be south of the bridge in bath. if you want to put the land in tree growth to lower the taxes you will have to have a management plan written by a forester. then you should follow it. to try to use it to lower taxes without ever cutting any wood. you may not want to put all of it in tree growth. in case someday you want to give your kids a house lot. someone said 2 ft of loam? a few inches is normal. maybe a bit more in a field that has had lots of cow poop spread on it for many yrs. before getting to excited about whole tree chipping is there a chip market? with in a 100 miles? i prefer cut to length maybe because thats the gear i have. and would one be able to tell with 2 ft of snow on the ground?

Snowstorm you are correct in my post I put coastal Maine, and since then I have filled out my profile and put midcoast. We are closer to Topsham than Bath.
 We are working with a forester to create a management plan for the property, we are keeping 20 acres more or less out of tree growth. They have gotten pretty strict on checking up on the existing plans and making sure they are harvested when the plan states, due to a political leader taking advantage of the tax break on his waterfront property and getting caught. At least that is what the forester told us.
We do have 2' of loam on a good portion of the land it was all pasture, orchard or produce fields for 125 years or so. I was shocked when I dug test pits for the septic bed, and where we want to put up a barn.

[mike_belben]

How does one build on 2 feet of that?  Does it pose problems?

[Krackle_959]

There has been a lot of great information provided here, so thank you all. We have contacted a forester to create a management plan, and give recommendations on harvesting, roughly 30% canopy removal, and oversize removal. Apparently some of the poplar is too big for the market at the DBH, but a log or two up and its small enough to sell for logs.
A local logger found out that we were interested in cutting the property and reached out about it. They came in with their forester and gave a price of $50k-$60k to cut 110 acres with roughly a 50% canopy removal. I don't know if they heard from someone in the area that a foresters truck was here, or if they drove by themselves. The forester did not talk to them or know how they knew when we asked the forester.

Dobie, I know about performance and payment bonds from work, I deal write clarifications and exclusions for projects as well as review contracts. I plan on a very straight forward contract with no gray areas left for interpretation. The forester also mentioned ruts being left and that the state has been getting after loggers who do not repair the woods roads. We were told most loggers will dress up the trails after they finish, smooth out ruts, and mulch the trail per the BMP's.

We will have our work cut out for us as well, we need to build an access road to get out back. It is not a problem as I will rent equipment from work, and have material delivered as well. Roughly 500 cy of gravel to build the road out back, which is something we wanted anyways. I just need to schedule it and get some iron here and start boxing out the roadway.

[Krackle_959]

How does one build on 2 feet of that?  Does it pose problems?

It got removed and reused for the septic system. It will also be removed for a roadway, yard, and barn areas. Typically all organic soils are removed, and if needed common fill hauled in before the gravel is placed in its specified thickness. On the roadway we are looking at 6" of fill and then 18" of gravel to have the proposed grades more or less even with the existing grades. The roadway will be at the same elevation and not built up above the existing ground.

[mike_belben]

Wow, thats a lot of material for a good road.