Logging Our Property Questions

[Krackle_959]

Well, this is my first post on the forum, I have been lurking for sometime now learning a lot in the last 2 years. I think this is the correct place to ask for advice, but if not, please move it to where it belongs.

My wife and I bought a 150 acre wooded farm in coastal Maine a couple of years ago. We know that it hasn't been truly cut since the 60's, from the records we were given. Firewood has been gathered every year in various portions of the woods, the former owners son explained that he cut up blow downs and standing dead trees for firewood. We know the woods need some attention, some of the large hemlocks are starting to snap 20'-30' up and are pushing 30"-40" diameter. Some of the big red oaks are  getting heart rot as well, same diameter range. A mix of large poplar, and maple, and some field pines as well. Our property is 40% hardwoods, 40% softwoods, and 20% mixed, according to a family friend who is a retired paper company forester.

We are ready to go forward with having the property selectively cut after numerous discussions about it. The wife doesn't want to loose the owls that we have, nor the deer. She gets the fact that there is nothing to replace the large trees we have, and the canopy is full so no little trees are growing to replace the existing ones.

Where do we start? One logging company has been out here last winter as I tried to sell him some 46" dia red oak logs from a couple trees that were shadowing out the old apple orchard. He would like to cut the place, but he is too small, a 4 man crew and small sawmill in town.

This is one area that I don't know too much about do we hire a forester and have them manage it, or use a local logger who have their own foresters?

I have looked at the professional loggers website, and there are not too many near us, do I just start calling companies?

We have a good idea of what we want, and what we don't. We don't want the slash left in the woods, its all high ground and dry. We want is selectively cut and thinned to let some future trees mature into something worth it the next time it is cut. We are thinking we have 40-50 years here on this property, so we want to do what is right for the woods. Thanks in advance.

[mudfarmer]

Welcome!

There are a bunch of folks from Maine on here and a lot of people more qualified than me to discuss the details. Just want to caution you about having the slash removed from the woods. The Northeast and really the whole world has been depleting topsoil and nutrients through various means for a long time and one of the things we work on here on our property is building that back up. It took years to figure that out.

Good luck and have fun

[mike_belben]

Welcome, congrats on the homestead.

I second that removing the slash is denying a future generation of humus to the soil composition.  When you cut this old canopy there is going to be a huge demand for nutrient uptake from the frenzy of regeneration that will occur.  

And also, youre asking a logger to become a landscaper.  That will cut down on your prospects and your timber income.


Theres a 4 man crew doing a 500-600 acre clearcut up the road at a late friend's house.  I dont see why 4 men cant do 150 acre.  BargeMonkey could probably do that alone in a month

Do you have any interest in being hands on in this project or just want it turn key taken care of?   If yes, what equipment and experience do you have?  If no, consider hiring in a mulcher after the harvest to jazz things up. 

[Texas Ranger]

A logger using his own forester would cause me to do an in depth history/references for the logger.

[Krackle_959]

Welcome, congrats on the homestead.

I second that removing the slash is denying a future generation of humus to the soil composition.  When you cut this old canopy there is going to be a huge demand for nutrient uptake from the frenzy of regeneration that will occur.  

And also, youre asking a logger to become a landscaper.  That will cut down on your prospects and your timber income.


Theres a 4 man crew doing a 500-600 acre clearcut up the road at a late friend's house.  I dont see why 4 men cant do 150 acre.  BargeMonkey could probably do that alone in a month

Do you have any interest in being hands on in this project or just want it turn key taken care of?   If yes, what equipment and experience do you have?  If no, consider hiring in a mulcher after the harvest to jazz things up.

Thanks, the homestead fits us more that the previous subdivision house.
I understand the importance of why people leave slash in the woods for the nutrients. The forest floor is currently 4"-6" of leaves and small sticks and then 24" plus of black loam. 100 years ago it was all farmland. From what I have seen done a lot of operations up here are whole tree operations, and what isn't saw logs becomes biomass. The intent is to be able to walk through the woods after, or take the old jeep around without too much effort.
There are some small crews up here that I think could do well, the one that came by, the owner was the cutter by hand, and a second truck driver, he told me it was too much for him. I have seen BargeMonkey's posts and I am quite impressed with the speed and dedication he has.
I would like to be hands on with the project, but I believe most companies insurance prohibits it. The other issue is having to take time off from work, I make more sitting behind a computer building models in CAD and creating 3D designs for our companies fab shop CNC plasma table, than I would save or benefit from helping. I do have the experience with heavy equipment, I grew up on a JD 440 skidder pulling what seamed like miles of cable at 12 year old up through high school. I also have tons of excavator experience, and some dozer experience. I work for a heavy construction company so equipment isn't an issue from a 19,000 LB excavator up to 140,000 LB, dozers ranging from 16,000 LB to 76,000 LB are available for the cost of fuel and delivery. I feel pretty lucky to have that offer.

[Krackle_959]

A logger using his own forester would cause me to do an in depth history/references for the logger.

That's what I am trying to figure out, Thank you. It seems several loggers up here have their own foresters on staff. It seemed like a conflict of interest to me at first glance.

[PoginyHill]

If you can't find a private forester, the state may offer forestry services either for no charge or a reduced fee...they used to. You may consider using Maine's tree growth tax law to reduce your property taxes. The first step, in my opinion, is a comprehensive forestry plan. It will serve as a roadmap for your management in the near and long term. I think it can be dangerous to hire a logger without the guidance of an independent forester. In any event a local state forester can provide you with options that make sense for your situation...I'm sure that consultation would be free of charge.

[Maine logger88]

If it hasn't been touched other than firewood since the 60s it's definitely due for a harvest. You can always have the state forester come take a look and give you his opinion. 

[mike_belben]

Wow.. 24" of topsoil is incredible.  Im lucky to have 2 and it'll wash away like nothing when disturbed. 

Ask @snowstorm  who to call to have the tops chipped.  I cant remember the name of the biomass buyer i talked to years ago but i bet snowstorm knows. 

[Old Greenhorn]

Been reading along today between work. Welcome to the forum, glad you dropped in. Sounds like you have a nice little piece of the earth there. I just retired in June from being a manufacturing engineer (programming, fixture design, process control,  capital expenditures, etc) so I might know a bit of  your situation. In my last 3 years or so on the job I filled my time with taking weekend classes in chainsaw use, Silviculture (sp?), and other stuff related to forest management and things I had an interest in.
 Sounds like you have a good deal of experience with the heavy equipment and access to same. I don't see where you mention any cutting experience but assume there is some. You can't spend that kind of time on a skidder without picking up some time. ;D Either way, you say you don't have time, I get that.  However you do need to understand what is going on with your property.
 My point is that knowledge is power. Take a class in Siliviculture. Understanding what goes into a good TSI cut is also helpful. Using the logger's forester would be a no go for me. You need to get your own who can listen to your plan for the land and develop a management plan, then the cut results from that. You want trees marked that you can see before any cutting takes place. The cutting needs to comply with your plan. It's all a process and a cycle and it starts with your plan. 
 You may have good loamy soil but there are other things you can do with the slash to improve your land. For instance there is promising work being done in creating protected zones to allow regeneration of clear cut areas with slash piles as a barrier. If you can sell your slash and get a worthwhile price, that is an option. But makes sure that is the right choice for your plan. There are lots of options open to you. Doing a little learning will help you quite a bit. These classes can be had at cooperative extensions all over the country for cheap. Also there are online seminars all the time (I did a lot of these at my desk at lunchtime). Google for conservationwebinars.com, they send me at least one new session a week. They are running a series on biomass right now, BTW. You can go back and watch the whole series.
 It's your land, you will be there for a while, you should know whats going on and make the choices you want to make. I wish I were that young again and had a chunk of earth like that to take care of.
 Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Best of luck to you!

[Southside]

So most good logging outfits will have a forester on staff.  Many times their job is to acquire timber to cut - at the best deal for the company.  They also work to help with compliance, boundary marking, etc.  They are not working for you, but they are not evil monsters either.  You can, and from the sounds of it should, hire a consulting forester who is representing you as the seller.  They will represent your financial interest and help with your management goals.  It is also someone who will give you a straight up answer as to the realistic expectations about what it is you want to do and if you will be able to find someone to do it, the couple red oaks example you stated comes to mind.  

There are a lot of ways to deal with slash.  A CTL operation that runs the tops into the trails and then beats them into pulp will leave you with a clean looking harvest that does not take away all of the nutrient value and helps to reduce erosion post harvest for example.  

Two feet of loamy top soil in coastal Maine is indeed rare, so you want to pay attention to the soil type, slope, etc to manage for erosion.  Seeding and winter harvest may be better options.  I am from The County and can tell you there is nothing like running on frozen ground to prevent issues.  

Good luck with your endeavor.  

[barbender]

Welcome, Krackle!

It sounds like you scored a nice piece of the earth, and want to do right by it. I work for a CTL logging outfit, and there are many benefits to this method. However, CTL harvests in hardwood are not a good option, if you are after that "park" look at the end. It is better for the soil, erosion issues, compaction, I could go on and on. But hardwood slash is ugly, there's no getting around that. If the forwarder has to pick up and pile the slash, that comes out of what you would be getting for stumpage. Full tree/biomass guys are pulling it out anyways. If the appearance and having the slash gone is the most important factor for you, I would point you in that direction. Good luck👍

[Krackle_959]

If you can't find a private forester, the state may offer forestry services either for no charge or a reduced fee...they used to. You may consider using Maine's tree growth tax law to reduce your property taxes. The first step, in my opinion, is a comprehensive forestry plan. It will serve as a roadmap for your management in the near and long term. I think it can be dangerous to hire a logger without the guidance of an independent forester. In any event a local state forester can provide you with options that make sense for your situation...I'm sure that consultation would be free of charge.

Thanks PoginyHill, we plan on using the tree growth tax law for a reduction in taxes, the only reason we haven't done it yet is an ongoing discussion about reestablishing some farm fields that are now woods. I am currently searching for a independent forester from the advice I have received on this forum.

[snowstorm]

if you really have 36" hemlock it almost has to be shaky black heart so pretty much useless. to big for pulp. bio mass if the chipper is big enough .  i am no whole tree chipping fan and never have been. i run ctl gear old stuff yes it can be done.

[Krackle_959]

Been reading along today between work. Welcome to the forum, glad you dropped in. Sounds like you have a nice little piece of the earth there. I just retired in June from being a manufacturing engineer (programming, fixture design, process control,  capital expenditures, etc) so I might know a bit of  your situation. In my last 3 years or so on the job I filled my time with taking weekend classes in chainsaw use, Silviculture (sp?), and other stuff related to forest management and things I had an interest in.
Sounds like you have a good deal of experience with the heavy equipment and access to same. I don't see where you mention any cutting experience but assume there is some. You can't spend that kind of time on a skidder without picking up some time. ;D Either way, you say you don't have time, I get that.  However you do need to understand what is going on with your property.
My point is that knowledge is power. Take a class in Siliviculture.

Thanks Old Greenhorn! We feel very lucky to have the property, the farmhouse is 202 yrs old and we are the 5th owners, the first two were grandparents to grandson. The place came with full documentation of the history of the property which is quite interesting in itself.
Congrats on the retirement, I am 25-30 years away from retiring, but at some point may switch to a lower stress, less time career to afford myself more time around the homestead.
I have been doing a ton of reading on forests, and some on silviculture as well. I will have to look up the classes as my wife and I both like to learn more constantly. I did grow up helping my old man in the woods, I learned a lot from him, right or wrong. He has been maintaining his 250 acres for 45 years every winter.
I do have a good amount of cutting experience for a home owner who grew up on a farm, been cutting firewood since I was a teenager. I currently run a 372XP with a 24" bar, and a 550XP MII with an 18" bar. We have been cutting back the edges of the lawn over the last two winters to open it back up a bit, roughly 8-10 cords a winter.

[Krackle_959]

if you really have 36" hemlock it almost has to be shaky black heart so pretty much useless. to big for pulp. bio mass if the chipper is big enough .  i am no whole tree chipping fan and never have been. i run ctl gear old stuff yes it can be done.

I will try and get out back in the next couple days and take some pictures of them, my understanding is it will have shake, the ones that have snapped of 20'-30' up haven't had heart rot where it broke. They are large trees, some of the pine that isn't field pine is that large or larger. If they are too big for a chipper, and not worth anything, do they get dropped and left for habitat?

[Haleiwa]

No rule that you have to do it all at once.  If the small outfit wants to cut a small area at a time, you can get a chipper and handle the slash behind him.  Best of all, yoy can adjust your plan as you see it in action.

[mike_belben]

Timber Resources | Woodlands | Logging | Tennessee Timber Consultants, LLC

Theres a 100 page landowner guidebook in free pdf format down bottom of this page that i think any homesteader will enjoy.  


Working my own woods is the most enjoyable thing i have ever done.

[stavebuyer]

An impartial job of marking is best done by someone who has a technical knowledge of forestry as it applies to the local conditions(environmental, financial, as well practical and customary) and has no financial interest in the proceeds of the sale.

Money ends up driving way too much of what is cut, how it is cut, and what is left. Buyers and contractors have no monopoly on greed. I have been through many a consultant managed sale that was nothing more than a glorified high grade.

Every tract and every owner will having competing interests. Too many in this business don't take enough time to listen. The result is the landowner is less than satisfied with the result. There is no such thing as one "correct" way to mark a timber stand and the only absolute is that you cannot get the highest price, best job, leave it looking like a park with fantastic hunting and aesthetic appeal while maximizing the future growth and health of the forest. That is where the trade-offs begin. You are the one who lives with the outcome, so it is of critical importance that both whoever is marking and whoever physically is cutting the timber understands your objectives and priorities and is willing to balance ideals with reality. 

There is nothing wrong with leaving a veneer white oak just because you like the look of it standing there or want to shoot  a squirrel out of it with your grandson. By the same token there is not a thing wrong with cutting that tree in order to finance your grandsons college tuition. 

The "forestry proscription" for a mature forest may very well be a clear-cut. The same is true for a forest that has been poorly managed. Most won't consider that for the "home place" and I don't blame them. So you start the compromise between uses, aesthetics, practicality, economics, growth, and re-growth.

The more you know and can communicate and possibly even control what you want as an outcome the closer you will get to that end. Lump sum is generally the safest way to ensure you get paid but you also loose all control the day you sign. A father/son with a small mill may not have access to international markets but if they pay as cut on percentage you can set the contract up to modify what's going on at any time. Most likely that route will mean less money but also a much better chance your not in shell shock after the contract crew that cuts for the exporter shows up and blows through the whole woods before you even know what hit you.

[Maine logger88]

if you really have 36" hemlock it almost has to be shaky black heart so pretty much useless. to big for pulp. bio mass if the chipper is big enough .  i am no whole tree chipping fan and never have been. i run ctl gear old stuff yes it can be done.

I will try and get out back in the next couple days and take some pictures of them, my understanding is it will have shake, the ones that have snapped of 20'-30' up haven't had heart rot where it broke. They are large trees, some of the pine that isn't field pine is that large or larger. If they are too big for a chipper, and not worth anything, do they get dropped and left for habitat?

My chipper is bigger than most and it won't really do 36 inch trees. I mean they will fit in the hole but it's awful hard on knife holders and knives. Generally when I have landowners with a bunch of large nasty trees I have a chat with them about what they want done with them. Occasionally i will split a few with a chainsaw to make them fit but that's not feasible in volume. A few just to get rid of them to help someone out is fine otherwise they get left standing or cut and left depending on the landowners wishes

[mike_belben]

Those big pines work just fine for maple sugaring. 

[Krackle_959]

Timber Resources | Woodlands | Logging | Tennessee Timber Consultants, LLC

Theres a 100 page landowner guidebook in free pdf format down bottom of this page that i think any homesteader will enjoy.  


Working my own woods is the most enjoyable thing i have ever done.

Thanks mike_belben! It Looks like a great resource, looks like we have some reading to do in the evenings.

[Krackle_959]

if you really have 36" hemlock it almost has to be shaky black heart so pretty much useless. to big for pulp. bio mass if the chipper is big enough .  i am no whole tree chipping fan and never have been. i run ctl gear old stuff yes it can be done.

I will try and get out back in the next couple days and take some pictures of them, my understanding is it will have shake, the ones that have snapped of 20'-30' up haven't had heart rot where it broke. They are large trees, some of the pine that isn't field pine is that large or larger. If they are too big for a chipper, and not worth anything, do they get dropped and left for habitat?

My chipper is bigger than most and it won't really do 36 inch trees. I mean they will fit in the hole but it's awful hard on knife holders and knives. Generally when I have landowners with a bunch of large nasty trees I have a chat with them about what they want done with them. Occasionally i will split a few with a chainsaw to make them fit but that's not feasible in volume. A few just to get rid of them to help someone out is fine otherwise they get left standing or cut and left depending on the landowners wishes

If they can't be chipped and are dropped to open up the canopy to let better trees grow, I might try and saw some up for some interior boards for the garage. At least that way I can get practice on the new sawmill and get some 1" boards for the 30'X40' garage interior walls. The sawmill will be ordered in December/January.

[Krackle_959]

Stavebuyer, Thanks for the information, there is a lot of helpful information in your post.

We know we cannot get the best of everything, and are not in it for the money. We are looking to make the forest produce for us in the future, and know that this first cutting is going to be the worst looking on. The wife and I are in disagreement about the slash being left, I wouldn't mind it, and for her its a no go. We all know happy wife, happy life, so she wins that one. We know that there are areas that might need to be clear cut, and one happens to be where there use to be a field, so that's fine it will become a field again.

We are planning on having a couple loggers come look at it and get their opinions, one does a lot of work for my company, and cuts the owners properties. I would trust them to cut our property as I know them really well. The other is a local logger who gets good references around the area. Family friends are recommending the forester that they use to manage their several hundred acre wood lot. We will reach out to the forester to cruise the lot and see what should be done to meet our goals. We also need the forester to do the management plan in order to put the land in tree growth, minus the areas to be fields and around the house. My rough guess would be 120 or so of the 150 acres would become tree growth.

Thank you all for the knowledge and advice you have shared, I will continue to keep the thread updated with which direction we choose, and before and after photos.

[Southside]

As part of your tree growth program you should be able to put those open acres / fields into agricultural use and get the tax advantage, at least you used to be able to do so.  

[Iwawoodwork]

Talk to your wife about chipping the slash/ tops and putting it  back into the forest or on the trails, also you both need to visit  some recently logged sites to understand that if any type of machinery is used in the process the forest floor will be disturbed. It will not have a park like look when harvesting is done, there will be ruts, humps and dips from machines moving the logs. Remember the logger is there to make a profit/money not to take time to build a park unless compensated for it.
For what I read of what you want the way to get those results is to get a forester then after the foresters report you can take your time and do it yourself the way you/wife want it to look.

[BargeMonkey]

 I've never seen much bad information on here, what StaveBuyer said was 100%. I make the joke to landowners that cutting a woodlot is alot like a certain adult experience 😆, hopefully both parties are happy after it's done but sometimes one isnt and then it gets ugly. 

 I deal with ALOT of people, walk woodlots that have been hammered and mismanaged, 90% of these people see trees and believe they have big bucks coming, the TV shows didnt do this industry any justice. 
 
 Full tree has its place, CTL with good operators can look just as nice. The "parasites" down here make such a mess I've got a niche thing going of a "clean swept" woodlot or piled brush in spots and honestly the landowners prefer it, is it the healthiest no, but we have so much underbrush here that I dont disagree with it because I've worked jobs that have burned in the past and I wouldn't leave it in my woods. 

 Hire a forester. It's going to cost you 12-20% ? Of the sale, down here they aren't cheap, not sure what Maine is. It's to easy to get burned, left a mess, the forester is your protection and buffer, make sure there is a reasonable bond posted, 3-5k bucks in cash is normal here on a bigger job. I sat having lunch with one of the foresters I work with last fall, he flat out said he wants to keep working with the 5-6 guys he regularly does because he knows what to expect, we have MUTANTS down here, weekend warrior smash and grab, over the property lines, bogus insurance, cut the best and run type stuff, anyone who cuts any volume of wood reputably is even normally referred by a forester, dont take it as "bad" collusion but unfortunately that's the way it works and it works for a reason because they dont want their names attached to a mess. If a logger tells you hes 6-12months out thats a good thing. Ask for proof of Comp, liability, yrs in business, again most reputable guys cutting wood are decent but the last thing you want is to get a half wit who hammers your woodlot. That being said also realize that wood isnt worth the fortune everyone thinks, pulp / firewood / lowgrade dont pay enough to bother with sometimes. 

 That's the look they want here, but I tell the landowner in spots it's getting smashed, turning corners. Hire someone with a buncher or processor if possible, yeah a little more gets cut but you dont have the smash like hand cutting. 
 

 some old slash from last time I was in here but that's what they want, wide open ATV trails, probably 3 miles of trails in here by the time I get done. 

[thecfarm]

Welcome to the forum.
Yes, on walking past logging sites!!!! Bring the wife too.  ;)  I don't know loggers down in your area. 
There is one guy here, just a few miles from me, I would not even let him walk on my land.  :    What he did not cut down, he either drove over it, or knocked it down with another tree.
I had my land logged 3 times so far. I could and can't keep up with it. The slash was left behind. Just about anything 4 inches and up was used for pulp. This was done with a harvester and a forwarder. There was a chainsaw used too on the big ones. Would be impossible to drive a jeep on the trials they used. I did clean up a lot of slash for fire wood, but that takes A LOT of time. There are guys out there that have chippers. Tops are all are brought out of the woods. I have seen that done here. A nice look and the woods are clear to drive around on.
As stated by another poster, look at past work sites so you know how yours will look. Bring the wife too. 
I have a hobby of stopping and looking at logged sites.
And if a logger says they will be there in 2 weeks, tell them don't bother. Most should be busy for at least 6 months. 

[Krackle_959]

As part of your tree growth program you should be able to put those open acres / fields into agricultural use and get the tax advantage, at least you used to be able to do so.  

You are correct fields can be put into agricultural use for the tax advantage. The problem is now the are checking to make sure people are producing the $2,500.00 year in farm income to keep the agricultural tax status. Most people sell the hay off the land, or lease it to a farmer to put year old calves on to get the income. I did learn selling firewood is not considered agricultural use and no longer counts.

[Krackle_959]

BargeMonkey:  The percentage for a forester up here from the one I talked to was 10%-15% depending on the lot, what needs to be done like property lines, plans, etc. They are also the buffer to protect the owner, and keep everything on the up and up.

There are definitely hacks here, the lot to the north of my property was cut in the winter based on stump heights (2'-4' high) and the amount of slash left. They came in with skidders and mowed down all of the small trees and only took the big hemlocks, beech, and red oak trees. The slash if you want to call it that is anything 8"minus including a lot of young trees just pushed over and driven across, not even cut. It is about waist high right now, and bad enough the local snowmobile club spent weeks cleaning out the trail. 

[Krackle_959]

Thanks thecfarm. The wife will want to look at previous logging sites to see how they are left, and talking to the clients to make sure they were happy with everything. In my industry as well if someone isn't booked for 6 months to a year, thats a bad sign. Once in awhile people need work, but there should be plenty out there for everyone right now. 



We are not looking for a park like appearance, but at the same time don't want it to look like a bomb went off either. We know the trails will get trashed and rutted up from the logging, that's not that big of an issue. I can bring home a D5 and spend a couple days smoothing it all out, and restoring the trails. There are also several companies that have forestry mulchers either on skidsteers or dedicated machines that we may have come in and grind all of the slash if that's the way we go. It might be the best solution have the slash left and then grind it in the trails. If needed a dozer could still be brought home, but from the sites I have seen the forestry mulchers do a pretty good job at smoothing things out.



It might also be a good excuse to get a 8" chipper for the back of my tractor, just because. Jeeping is in my wife's blood, so that can't change she has a 1942 GPW that is fully restored, she has driven it since she was 15 after restoring it with her dad. We also have a 1946 CJ 2A that is our woods jeep, but both go trail riding.

[WDH]

From what I have read here, I question why select cut the property at all unless there is a compelling need for money?   Nothing says that you have to cut it at all on its own merit.  Nature is perfectly happy to do its thing without any help from you.  
Logging is a very intrusive process.  Having a beautifully aesthetic property and logging do not go hand in hand.  Logging is disturbance and disturbance is change.  You could spend your time and resources cleaning up the property and getting it into the shape you want without the intrusion of big machines and the resulting debris and disturbance from logging. 
From what you have stated about your goals, it does not seem that making maximum $ from timber production is high on your list.  So, think through and examine your goals.  No one is holding a gun to your head to bring on a harvest. 

[nativewolf]

Second what WDH says:  Typically we ask clients to view 3 legs of a triangle/stool: Ecological Sustainability/Asset Value/Income.  If you push anyone leg very hard than it will fall over.  Often harvest  are actually asset sales in disguise.  They create income but asset diminution may exceed the income.   

Not sure what the climax species are for your forest, here in Virginia it would likely be a beech/yellow poplar forest with out fire or a mixed oak/hickory with fire.  Maybe in some mountain coves we had hemlock forest before the pests wiped them out, in really cold areas maybe sugar maple.  

As Danny says if you leave it alone all you are doing is foregoing a bit of early disruption for a slow gradual transition to a climax forest, climax forest look great.  Nothing wrong with them at all.  In fact the increase in asset value (property value) might trump any income.

[PoginyHill]

As @nativewolf says, a good management plan will incorporate all of the landowners goals. It is not simply a plan to cut trees. But there may be some goals that cannot be fully realized in parallel, and some compromise will likely need to be considered. Selective cuts are not pretty, but long term the mess fades away and a more healthy forest results. Goals also have a time-frame - sometimes a short term compromise to achieve a more important long-term goal. If you don't want the slash from a cutting job, you probably don't want to see dead and diseased trees falling from natural death either. If the aesthetics of your forest are paramount, then maybe a very limited cut of at-risk trees using a team or horses is the ticket - there are plenty of options. There may be several unique stands within a 150 acre parcel, warranting different treatment for each. Maybe some goals can be met in one stand and other goals on another.
It may be worthwhile to "interview" several foresters to see who can best understand your goals and work with you. You'll may need to pay a $/hr fee for that, however.

[mike_belben]

As the old adage goes, if you want it done right you better do it yourself.  


The more desire you have to achieve a specific outcome the less likely you are to get it from a contractor.  Especially one who has to pay YOU a share out of the mill proceeds, which is a pay format that specifically encourages corners cut, mistakes unfixed, high grading, smashed and rubbed keeper trees, shortcut trailbraids and everything else.



Sure oprah probably has an epic forest but i bet shes paying hourly for a logger to play landscaper.  Im not saying you cant win this hand, but statistically it would be wise to prepare for dissapointment.  I would start with a contract that says there will be no this, this, this, or this.  Hopefully enough upfront fear to prevent any hackjob from signing it.  

No matter how you slice this job i still see you doing cleanup and detailing yourself, or not getting paid much of anything.

[Southside]

Not sure what the climax species are for your forest

Probably White Pine, maybe some mixed maple hardwood on the lower ground - but that is a long time coming, popple, fir, spruce, hemlock, then the pine.   

[GAB]

This line from mike_belden to me is a great trueism  
The more desire you have to achieve a specific outcome the less likely you are to get it from a contractor.
I've remolded two houses and I found it quicker and less agrivating to buy the tools necessary and up to 300% of the material needed especially if only a small amount of something is needed and doing it myself.
Note: My wood stove has devoured many of my mistakes and rendered them to ashes.
GAB

[Woodfarmer]

As the old adage goes, if you want it done right you better do it yourself.  


The more desire you have to achieve a specific outcome the less likely you are to get it from a contractor.  Especially one who has to pay YOU a share out of the mill proceeds, which is a pay format that specifically encourages corners cut, mistakes unfixed, high grading, smashed and rubbed keeper trees, shortcut trailbraids and everything else.



Sure oprah probably has an epic forest but i bet shes paying hourly for a logger to play landscaper.  Im not saying you cant win this hand, but statistically it would be wise to prepare for dissapointment.  I would start with a contract that says there will be no this, this, this, or this.  Hopefully enough upfront fear to prevent any hackjob from signing it.  

No matter how you slice this job i still see you doing cleanup and detailing yourself, or not getting paid much of anything.

Well Mike aren't you just the optimist. There are many loggers that will do a decent job I'm sure. Those are the ones to seek out.

[barbender]

There are loggers that do great work- logging. Sometimes a landowner wants something closer to landscaping, and can't understand there isn't enough value in the timber to accomplish that (I'm not suggesting that is the case with the OP). There are also loggers that can't understand that a landowner is willing to pay them on top of the timber to make it look the way they want. I think all Mike is getting at, is that if you have a very specific vision sometimes you have to do it yourself🤷‍♂️

[Krackle_959]

Not sure what the climax species are for your forest

Probably White Pine, maybe some mixed maple hardwood on the lower ground - but that is a long time coming, popple, fir, spruce, hemlock, then the pine.  

We have a lot of red oak, white birch , maples, ash, Popple, and hemlock. There are maybe 8-10 acres of pine not as much as one would think. 

[Krackle_959]

As the old adage goes, if you want it done right you better do it yourself.  


The more desire you have to achieve a specific outcome the less likely you are to get it from a contractor.  Especially one who has to pay YOU a share out of the mill proceeds, which is a pay format that specifically encourages corners cut, mistakes unfixed, high grading, smashed and rubbed keeper trees, shortcut trailbraids and everything else.



Sure oprah probably has an epic forest but i bet shes paying hourly for a logger to play landscaper.  Im not saying you cant win this hand, but statistically it would be wise to prepare for dissapointment.  I would start with a contract that says there will be no this, this, this, or this.  Hopefully enough upfront fear to prevent any hackjob from signing it.  

No matter how you slice this job i still see you doing cleanup and detailing yourself, or not getting paid much of anything.

I get what you are saying, it's like construction work as well. You get what you pay for. If I was able to retire and could work in the woods often I might think about doing it myself. I don't mind paying more for what we want, or bringing equipment in after they are done and spending a week off from work to clean up the trails.
I think it would take a lifetime of work for one person to take on 150 acres.

[mike_belben]

To tell ya the truth, ive found this to be a pretty difficult year for optimism, and i will leave it at that. 

[snowstorm]

at first you said coastal maine. that could be kittery to eastport. that covers a lot of ground. now it says the midcoast. my wild guess would be south of the bridge in bath. if you want to put the land in tree growth to lower the taxes you will have to have a management plan written by a forester. then you should follow it. to try to use it to lower taxes without ever cutting any wood. you may not want to put all of it in tree growth. in case someday you want to give your kids a house lot. someone said 2 ft of loam? a few inches is normal. maybe a bit more in a field that has had lots of cow poop spread on it for many yrs. before getting to excited about whole tree chipping is there a chip market? with in a 100 miles? i prefer cut to length maybe because thats the gear i have. and would one be able to tell with 2 ft of snow on the ground?

[Dobie]

No way would I even think about doing anything without using a consulting forester.  Standard fee in Pa and New York is 10%.  This year we did a junk cut on our 180 acres here in Pa.  Used a reputable forester and we got $55,000 with competitive sealed bids.  We did take about a 3rd of our soft maple but a lot of that was the overgrown, gnarly, multi stemmed type.   I think we took a total of 2 oak and 3 cherry trees and they were such poor quality, I can't believe they actually took them.  Still can't believe we got that much from all the junk we had marked. Contrast that to a 170 acre property I recently looked at for an investment.  It was also recently timbered.  They guy who owns it is a doctor and he decided to use the forester from the timber company(I swear doctors think they are so smart but so many are dumb as a rock when it comes to land and timber).  He didn't want to pay the forester's 10% commission.  According to the realtor he also got $55,000 but after walking thru the woods, they took all the mature oak and cherry and from the looks of what was left, this was a high quality site.   He probably hould have made 3x that much.s

I also had our forester get a $5,000 performance bond for cleanup and to make sure all the ruts were taken out of the trails and for any damage to standing trees(be reasonable with this one).  They don't get their money back until I am satisfied(and they still haven't got it back yet).  On your size job, this is more than reasonable to ask for.


If you don't have a contract and everything in writing as well as use an independent consulting forester, good luck getting them to honor what you agreed to.  


A good place to find a good forester in your area is to contact your local AgChoice or Farm Credit who specialize in lending on land and see who they recommend.  That's how we found the top forester in our region.

[Stoneyacrefarm]

Great Job Dobie.!!
Good read here.
There are a lot of ways to tackle a situation like yours. 
You made money and still got what you wanted. 
Win win all the way around. 

[Krackle_959]

at first you said coastal maine. that could be kittery to eastport. that covers a lot of ground. now it says the midcoast. my wild guess would be south of the bridge in bath. if you want to put the land in tree growth to lower the taxes you will have to have a management plan written by a forester. then you should follow it. to try to use it to lower taxes without ever cutting any wood. you may not want to put all of it in tree growth. in case someday you want to give your kids a house lot. someone said 2 ft of loam? a few inches is normal. maybe a bit more in a field that has had lots of cow poop spread on it for many yrs. before getting to excited about whole tree chipping is there a chip market? with in a 100 miles? i prefer cut to length maybe because thats the gear i have. and would one be able to tell with 2 ft of snow on the ground?

Snowstorm you are correct in my post I put coastal Maine, and since then I have filled out my profile and put midcoast. We are closer to Topsham than Bath.
 We are working with a forester to create a management plan for the property, we are keeping 20 acres more or less out of tree growth. They have gotten pretty strict on checking up on the existing plans and making sure they are harvested when the plan states, due to a political leader taking advantage of the tax break on his waterfront property and getting caught. At least that is what the forester told us.
We do have 2' of loam on a good portion of the land it was all pasture, orchard or produce fields for 125 years or so. I was shocked when I dug test pits for the septic bed, and where we want to put up a barn.

[mike_belben]

How does one build on 2 feet of that?  Does it pose problems?

[Krackle_959]

There has been a lot of great information provided here, so thank you all. We have contacted a forester to create a management plan, and give recommendations on harvesting, roughly 30% canopy removal, and oversize removal. Apparently some of the poplar is too big for the market at the DBH, but a log or two up and its small enough to sell for logs.
A local logger found out that we were interested in cutting the property and reached out about it. They came in with their forester and gave a price of $50k-$60k to cut 110 acres with roughly a 50% canopy removal. I don't know if they heard from someone in the area that a foresters truck was here, or if they drove by themselves. The forester did not talk to them or know how they knew when we asked the forester.

Dobie, I know about performance and payment bonds from work, I deal write clarifications and exclusions for projects as well as review contracts. I plan on a very straight forward contract with no gray areas left for interpretation. The forester also mentioned ruts being left and that the state has been getting after loggers who do not repair the woods roads. We were told most loggers will dress up the trails after they finish, smooth out ruts, and mulch the trail per the BMP's.

We will have our work cut out for us as well, we need to build an access road to get out back. It is not a problem as I will rent equipment from work, and have material delivered as well. Roughly 500 cy of gravel to build the road out back, which is something we wanted anyways. I just need to schedule it and get some iron here and start boxing out the roadway.

[Krackle_959]

How does one build on 2 feet of that?  Does it pose problems?

It got removed and reused for the septic system. It will also be removed for a roadway, yard, and barn areas. Typically all organic soils are removed, and if needed common fill hauled in before the gravel is placed in its specified thickness. On the roadway we are looking at 6" of fill and then 18" of gravel to have the proposed grades more or less even with the existing grades. The roadway will be at the same elevation and not built up above the existing ground.

[mike_belben]

Wow, thats a lot of material for a good road. 

[Southside]

I have never heard of stumpage prices that high in Maine - that is an amazing offer.