Power up and down

summerjob · January 17, 2006, 09:22:44 AM

Has anyone added power up and down to their manual WM. WM says that it can't be done to an LT 25, but I believe where there is a will there is a way. I don't mind any of the other aspects of my manual mill, but after a long day of sawing it gets old cutting 4/4 then having to crank back up to do the next 30" log. That is the only time I mind using the crank, to crank back up for the next log. Any advice on how and what type of motor needed would be much appreciated. I have heard of people using a cordless drill, but when custom sawing I don't want to have to charge batteries.

jpgreen · January 17, 2006, 10:04:01 AM

From what I'm finding on these woodmizers, I don't think there is anything you can't do with them if you are careful and know what you're doing.

I think they purposely frown on mods because they want customers to move up and spend more on a more expensive model.

The parts people I've talked to do not even want to consider a mod, or update if they don't have a kit already made for it. I think a guy that can fabricate well, can make anything for these machines.

The sales staff I spoke with are quick to say you can't add this or do that. That's bunk IMO. They all (LT's) started with the same frame, and they added their options. If a guy is an a accomplished welder knows how to weld without distorting, and knows where to weld and where not to weld or cut to keep the structual integrity of the machine... anything can be done within reason.

Whether it's economically viable is another story.. ;D

Buzz-sawyer · January 17, 2006, 11:18:17 AM

Cant be done????
Of course it can!......Learn to use the search function on this site, and you will find free instructions with pictures to build at least 4 different up down set ups ;)

woodbowl · January 17, 2006, 11:56:34 AM

Quote from: jpgreen on January 17, 2006, 10:04:01 AM

I think they purposely frown on mods because they want customers to move up and spend more on a more expensive model. .............

The parts people I've talked to do not even want to consider a mod, or update if they don't have a kit already made for it. .............

The sales staff I spoke with are quick to say you can't add this or do that. That's bunk IMO. ................

They've got to do buisness that way for a lot of different reasons and if I had a buisness with standards I would do the same thing. I buy everything that I can from WoodMizer for several different reasons as well. If I am down and need it, all I have to do is place an order. I want to support them all I can so they can continue to be a leader in the industry. Their also a sponser of the forum. ................... Now that I've said that, I fall into sort of a can't help it catagory. :

I've done a lot of off standard things to my mill. You can see it in my gallery. Can it be made to work? Well .......... of course it can. How much trouble will it be to modify? It depends on the person and who they are inside. Some folks need to leave it alone and buy from the manufacturer and other folks just can't help it! They've got to tear it apart and try to make it better. ................. Buzz .......... How's that homemade mill comming along? 8)

sparks · January 17, 2006, 12:58:14 PM

jpgreen, as woodbowl mention we have to abide by standards. I never say it can't be done what I say is we do not offer a kit for a retro. Many of our customers have bought parts and made them work. Most understand that they are a as is sale. Since they are not designed for a certain mill we do not warranty them. That has never stopped the fabricators from trying. An LT25 head is different from an LT40 head so the parts for the up down do not bolt directly in place but it can be done with the right knowledge.
Remember we have to protect Wood-Mizer. If we sell it, we must note that it is not intended for that mill. Believe me if someone got hurt, and we didn't do that, we would be in court more than here helping you guys.
If there are parts you want to get to try to alter the mill we are more than happy to sell them to you. There are a lot of good fabricators on this site who have done some kool things. Thanks

summerjob · January 17, 2006, 01:38:27 PM

So can someone tell me exactly what I will have to purchase. I have no problems buying parts from woodmizer. I am very creative and able to fabricate; however I am not real keen on welding (don't want to hurt resale) would rather bolt on.
Sparks, can you help me with part numbers.
Thanks guys

woodbowl · January 17, 2006, 02:04:19 PM

Quote from: summerjob on January 17, 2006, 01:38:27 PM
So can someone tell me exactly what I will have to purchase. I have no problems buying parts from woodmizer. I am very creative and able to fabricate; however I am not real keen on welding (don't want to hurt resale) would rather bolt on.
Sparks, can you help me with part numbers.

Your kinda' on your own SJ. If you see someones homemade retro and it works good enough for you , maybe you can copy it. If you have ideas of your own and determined to make it work, get ready to buy some things from various sources and put them together. I have a pile of good parts that I was unsatisfied with so I cut it off and tried something else. That's just part of fabricating your own. Sometimes this can cost more than buying turnkey from the manufacturer. If you've got it in you to take a chance by cut things off your mill and welding homemade things on ....... go for it. If so, ... welcome to the "can't help it" club. ;D

Buzz-sawyer · January 17, 2006, 02:13:10 PM

I dont believe you are gonna find someone who is gonna tell ya what parts to purchase and give a blow by blow of how to do it..........
Its more of a art than a science if ya know what I mean ;)....

you need to look at bunches of pictures, and working mills if possible, then churn it all up in your head and whatever comes out is your design well try to help with specific questions as we can :D :D ;)

sparks · January 17, 2006, 02:38:47 PM

summerjob, how do you plan to do it? Are you going to just add a drive to where the handle is and have it crank the head up and down? The you would need a motor and gearbox, a drum switch to supply current to the motor and a fabricated way to connect it to the mill and the up/down chain. Another thing you have to worry about. The charging system on the engine is not strong enough to handle the additional load of 30 to 45 amps the up/down motor will pull. So now you have to add a charging sytem and battery for the up down. If you have the 20hp engine it already has the battery. As you can see it can snowball on you pretty quick.
Here is a picture of the up/down drive. Thanks

jpgreen · January 17, 2006, 03:46:33 PM

Thanks for the Reply sparks.

I totally agree with everything that has been posted. I did not clarify in detail my position. I fully realize that you (Woodmizer) cannot be held liable for modifications you have not engineered, and did not approve of, and are not insured for, and what I meant more than anything is it is a great engineered piece of equipment, and it most certainly can be modified, eventhough they tell you it can't. There is one heck of a solid machine there to work with.

Not a good idea for Woodmizer to approve an unknown mod, and not a good idea for someone to undertake modifications that does not have a great deal of experience with machinery, design, building and fabrication.

8)

sparks · January 17, 2006, 04:16:18 PM

no problem summerjob, we're here if ya need us. Thanks

highpockets · January 17, 2006, 06:27:00 PM

Come to my house. I'll bet we can do something. Of course it may weigh as much as an army tank.

summerjob · January 18, 2006, 08:26:55 AM

I am open for advice here. Would I be better off trying to mount this unit at the crank or mounting it at the bottom pulley (are they on the bottom on other mills). Then another consideration would be is there a mechanical break of some sort in the gear box that stops the movement or is it possible to keep the crank and only use the electric to raise the head. My mill has the Kohler command 20. Do I need to add a charging system to handle the extra load. Can you give me an idea of the overall height and width of the motor and gear box (trying to figure out clearances) I appologize for all the questions; however, when I do something it is done right. I have seen a few mill mods that I would never allow to be done on my mill. They either work half or look like they shouldn't work.
Thanks again

highpockets · January 19, 2006, 07:16:48 AM

It's kind of a given that a gear reduction of over 30:1 will hold it's self.

Fla._Deadheader · January 20, 2006, 11:32:54 PM

We used a worm gear drive boat trailer winch with a pulley in place of the crank. Powered with an outboard motor starter motor. Pics were in the old photo archives. Anyone know if that can be accessed anymore ??

highpockets · January 21, 2006, 07:06:44 AM

Do you have any close up photos of the mill and where you are trying to mount whatever you come up with? I'd like to see a more detail view. Perhaps I might be able to help with something. I have a fair amount of 50 pitch sprockets, etc. I might learn something, as I am making my third modification on my lift system.

Swede · January 21, 2006, 07:56:59 AM

Now and then I update my sawmill. I don´t know what brand it is, it´s a 4-poster. Welcome to look my pictures.
Sawing in cold weather I´ve found the hydraulic up/down is working to slow and here is what I want to soon as possible;

1 threaded shaft a side, Ø 20mm (~3/4") rising 5mm/r. coupled together with a chain or shaft/angled gearboxes. Driven by an electric motor. A hydraulic one would also work but that system will be more expensive.
One of the threaded shafts will have a cam touching an electric circuit breaker so the sawhead stops on it´s way down every rev (5mm.), if I don´t puch a button and bypass the breaker.

My scale is metric and in most cases I´m sawing 2" to 48mm (or 53mm if the customer wants me to). 1 1/2" = 38mm. 1 1/8=28mm. 7/8"=23mm. This new set would be very fast and easy to operate and make exact measure.

Swede.

Minnesota_boy · January 21, 2006, 08:28:22 AM

Cold temperatures don't slow the hydraulics much if you replace the standard hydraulic fluid with a low temperature version. Mine work pretty well down to -10 F. and works fair at -20 F. I don't work below -20 F. reguardless of what the hydraulics do. :D

Swede · January 21, 2006, 09:12:33 AM

Minnesota_boy;
If ISO VG 32 oil has to go from the cylinders, through 32' 3/8 hose, a valve, 32' back another hose, through another valve, to the tank and and is forced just by the weight of the sawhead the temp makes difference. ;D

I don´t work much below -10 C.

Swede.

freddycougar · January 21, 2006, 11:35:43 AM

synthetic oil work to -40
freddy

kelLOGg · January 22, 2006, 08:24:17 PM

Quote from: summerjob on January 17, 2006, 09:22:44 AM
Has anyone added power up and down to their manual WM. WM says that it can't be done to an LT 25, but I believe where there is a will there is a way. I don't mind any of the other aspects of my manual mill, but after a long day of sawing it gets old cutting 4/4 then having to crank back up to do the next 30" log. That is the only time I mind using the crank, to crank back up for the next log. Any advice on how and what type of motor needed would be much appreciated. I have heard of people using a cordless drill, but when custom sawing I don't want to have to charge batteries.

I modified my Cook's MP-32 with a power up-down (actually gravity does the down part but it would be easy to power it too). I used a 12VDC gear motor from Surplus Center (www.surpluscenter.com) part no. 5-1524 $39.95. I bolted a bracket to the head carriage so there was no welding to the sawmill. It performs very well in my application. I'm not familiar with the LT 25 but if your torque reqirements match the gearmotor and you being handy youu should evaluate it. Current draw is < 20 amps. Good luck

summerjob · January 23, 2006, 08:12:18 AM

I modified my Cook's MP-32 with a power up-down (actually gravity does the down part but it would be easy to power it too). I used a 12VDC gear motor from Surplus Center (www.surpluscenter.com) part no. 5-1524 $39.95. I bolted a bracket to the head carriage so there was no welding to the sawmill. It performs very well in my application. I'm not familiar with the LT 25 but if your torque reqirements match the gearmotor and you being handy youu should evaluate it. Current draw is < 20 amps. Good luck

This really interests me. This seems to be exactly what I am looking for. kelLOGg will the gear motor "free role" to use the crank to lower. How do you lower yours. Is it possible to show me pictures?? When you say gravity, do you use the motor or have a crank also. How do I figure out what torque I am dealling with. Can anyone tell me if the charging system on a Kohler Command 20 can handle the 20 amp draw. Sorry I don't have a camera to take pictures of my setup.
Thanks again You guys are a big help

kelLOGg · January 23, 2006, 05:01:57 PM

Quote from: summerjob on January 23, 2006, 08:12:18 AM
I modified my Cook's MP-32 with a power up-down (actually gravity does the down part but it would be easy to power it too). I used a 12VDC gear motor from Surplus Center (www.surpluscenter.com) part no. 5-1524 $39.95. I bolted a bracket to the head carriage so there was no welding to the sawmill. It performs very well in my application. I'm not familiar with the LT 25 but if your torque reqirements match the gearmotor and you being handy youu should evaluate it. Current draw is < 20 amps. Good luck

This really interests me. This seems to be exactly what I am looking for. kelLOGg will the gear motor "free role" to use the crank to lower. How do you lower yours. Is it possible to show me pictures?? When you say gravity, do you use the motor or have a crank also. How do I figure out what torque I am dealling with. Can anyone tell me if the charging system on a Kohler Command 20 can handle the 20 amp draw. Sorry I don't have a camera to take pictures of my setup.
Thanks again You guys are a big help

Summerjob
I need power only to raise the sawhead - I just release the crank brake
and press the button. (It will actually raise the sawhead with the
brake on but that’s wasteful.) When I want to lower it I just release
the friction brake on the wheel crank and the weight of the sawhead
turns the gearmotor backward. To power the down direction would require
just a DPDT switch but I don’t need it. I can also release the brake
and use the hand crank to raise/lower the head for small distances -
this actually makes it easier to hit the mark for the next cut.
(I know what you mean by cranking up 30" to start a new log. That’s why
I added this gear motor.) The actual measured current draw is 10 amps
and the magneto on my Kohler 16 HP keeps the battery charged so I would think a 20 HP Kohler would do at least as well.
The torque on this gearmotor is 75 in-lbs. To estimate the torque
required to turn the hand crank I hung an empty plastic jug on the
handle and filled it with water until the crank began to turn. I
weighed the jug+water and measured the distance from the center of the
crank shaft and handle (the radius). Multiplying the distance (inches)
by weight (lbs) gives the static torque. In my case the distance is 6
inches and the water weighs 5 lbs - 6 x 5 is 30 in-lbs of torque. This
is a minimum so double or triple it to allow for friction and dynamic
torque. That’s 60 - 90 in lbs and the gearmotor provides 75 in-lbs
continuous. I decided to give it a try. I fitted a sprocket on the
handcrank shaft and one on the gearmotor (required some machine shop
work) and it has worked perfectly for one year now. I used a relay to
operate it so the switch did not have to carry the full 10 amps. I have a .digital pfhoto of it (.jpg file) but I don't know how to insert it yet.

woodbowl · January 23, 2006, 08:05:54 PM

kelLOGg, that method of calculating the inch pounds is pretty slick. I'm gona' remember that one. ;) .........................

Tom · January 23, 2006, 08:09:50 PM

Fellows

All this use of the quote code is confusing. I am having one heck of a time following the conversation and would really like to be able to read it. Sometimes, especially in a current conversation, it's better to just type what you think rather than repeat what someone else has said. Especially the entire post. Please, please, help me to understand.