Log cabin without seasoning logs

[Iommi]

Hi folks,

I'm falling spruce trees right now, for my log cabin construction. (8-12 inches diameters)

I wanted to debark and stack my logs right away, so my logs can season about a year before building my walls, but I'm really looking forward to start fast.

So I'm wondering, what could happen I start right building right after debarking, without seasoning ? I'm doing scandinavian log method, plus I will pin logs together, top on bottom.

- Moisture between logs ?
- Structural issues ?

Thanks a lot !

[DonW]

Starting construction directly after felling is the standard procedure with the kind of construction you mention. There are many so called Scandinavian methods so it's not clear which particular method you intend. Will the logs be hewn on the in and outsides? Almost all Scandinavian log buildings are.  Which corner joint, there are many?
The moisture issue you mention is not a concern at all unless you misguidedly try sealing joints with some non-permeable material. Structurally you will have to understand and accommodate for significant shrinkage in the corner joint and anywhere vertical elements interact with horizontals, door jambs, window jambs and so on and so on as well as the roof. 

[barbender]

Put 'em up green👍

[Joe Hillmann]

Mold will probably be an issue.  But I am drying logs for my cabin and they are molding as well.

[barbender]

If you are using the Scandinavian full scribe method, the grooves will get mold in them. It doesn't really matter. Even if you season your logs, the moisture content will not come down below what mold can happen at. I am of the firm belief that the best place for logs to season (unless you are in a dry climate) is stacked in a wall, under a roof. Usually, nothing good happens to logs stacked up to season.

[firefighter ontheside]

My home is built with Scandinavian scribed red pine with swedish coped corners.  The logs were green when the home was built.  The 10' walls have shrunk about 5" since originally built.  The shrinkage is the biggest thing to worry about.  My builder made his corners with what he called a "shrink to fit" method.  Many similar methods that I looked at before I picked him had corners with huge open notches due to shrinkage.  Mine are very tight after 20 years.  Windows and doors have to be designed to allow for the opening to get shorter.  Everything on a second story have to be designed to allow for it to get lower.  Plumbing has to be flexible.  HVAC has to be flexible.  Any load bearing walls or posts in the interior have to  be designed to be lowered as the home shrinks.  You talk about pinning the logs together.  My walls have full length threaded rod going from top to bottom.  As the logs shrunk I had to keep tightening the nuts in the basement.  All this shrinkage took at least 5 years and that was with conditioned air on the inside.  Trying to dry the logs before using would probably take 10 years.

[DonW]

.  Trying to dry the logs before using would probably take 10 years.

L
Why, are there no log home kiln driers? :(

[firefighter ontheside]

I think you just invented a new industry.

[doc henderson]

they all use solar and wind.   ;)   :D

[btulloh]

L
Why, are there no log home kiln driers? :(

Physics. 

[Don P]

There's one log home company about 5 miles away that does KD, another about 20 miles away. I've built both ways from multiple companies and much prefer dry. I've bought KD timbers from the company about 20 miles away. I've also built supposedly kd log homes that I can only assume both doors of the kiln were open and the cart never broke stride  :.

[DonW]

I knew there would be. 

[mike_belben]

How well does the average whole debarked log behave in a kiln?  Id expect them to blow apart or something. 

[doc henderson]

I was going to joke that I would season my logs with thyme.    Makes you wonder how to get the water out.  hot air pulls from the surface creating a large gradient and physical stress.  heating the whole log could help move water from the center.  I wonder about vacuum.  could build individual vacuum kilns for log if you had cheap pipe painted black and in the sun and pull a vacuum.   :P   . would have to cycle with outside air to get rid of the released water.  lots of info about drying in place allowing for shrinkage.  I think they still like to let them airdry for a bit.  I say "they" as I have no first hand info other than logs in my yard.  I have never built a cabin.

[Don P]

Well, it would appear Elvis has left the building. We are just talking to ourselves anyway  :D

Y'all are confusing settlement and shrinkage. Shrinkage is, or can be, just one factor in settlement.

Just a thinking exercise. If the outer shell, say an inch, of a log or timber is approaching equilibrium and we know dry wood is twice as strong as green, are we a good bit closer to dimension than if the same timber were dead green? If you've watched the arguments made it is always couched in green vs fully dry, which I've also seen in the argument takes 40 years  ;D. In other words is any better than none?

More stuff to think about on the wonderfulness of allowing for settlement. Stairs. Assume the second floor is going to drop 5", ~5%. You are allowed no more than 3/8" variation in a run of stairs and 2° max out of level. How are you going to do that?

A full log gable with a common rafter system, again, how are you going to accommodate the dropping gable wall within a fixed triangle?

Just more fun stuff to ponder on.

[DonW]

The obstruction in the rafter is at the joint at the peak so a gap would have to be incorporated to allow for the drop. How's that?

[firefighter ontheside]

If I remember correctly, Senty would not build log gables or at least he didn't recommend it.  He would not build log interior walls either because of the different rates of logs drying.  I don't remember the exact dimensions, but I know I built my stairs to have the bottom step to the landing a little taller than the rest and now it is a little shorter than the rest.  The full log wall was 10' tall, but the bearing point in the wall for the stairs is more like 8' so there was not as much shrinkage to deal with as far as the stairs were concerned.  I used to know all this stuff perfectly, but over 20 years later its a bit foggy.

[Don P]

DonW, in that area from the plate up, the log gable is what is dropping, the rafters are stationary in relation. There is no really good solution.

For stairs you can slide along the floor going out of level, you can absorb the settlement in the top step or a combination, or you can build the finish stairs later.

I pegged a couple of EWP timbers a little bit ago, an 8x8 and an 8x10. I sawed the stack 12-14 months ago, the cover blew off about 4 months in and I keep meaning to recover it, it was an unusually wet year but dry for the past month or two. I used 3" insulated pins. The surface was quite dry, first whack in was 15% on both then climbed to 20% 3" in on the 8x8 and 25% on the 8x10. This is pretty typical. EWP dries rapidly although not as fast as SYP and these were sawn timbers but it does give a little perspective on the claims that one has to build with green heavy timber. The ones I really enjoy is folks who wring their hands on the internet gathering opinions for several years before making the decision to build green  : :D.

[Don P]

I'm still bouncing through books and tables for the inspector and was in my calcs a minute ago banging out something else. I'd forgotten I wrote a log shrinkage calc based on the code equations;
Log Wall Shrinkage Calculator (timbertoolbox.com)

They do differentiate and shrinkage can be just one portion of overall settlement, as I recall there's several more pages in the code to get there if designing by the book. Anyway just more background.

[Joe Hillmann]

One reason to season the logs  is they become lighter and easier to move.  I milled a bunch of D-logs last summer and it was all I could do to get them in the drying stack with ramps.  Now nine months later I can put a log over my shoulder and carry it with no problem.  And I assume they will continue to lose weight as the dry more.

[kantuckid]

In my (senior, worn out body's) world a dry log is fairly heavy... :D I built my home solo to the tops of the first floor windows off the bed of my log truck onto the subfloor, green SYP logs, sizes from 20' down, 6" thick by 8 to 11" diameter. Now we know why my body is broken? I should have waited 7-8 years for them to dry out as I now learn.  ;)

[doc henderson]

but then (now) you are even older!   ;)

[kantuckid]

Older is VG as the alternative is sucky.  :D 
Life as I knew it with my tractor operational was better than right now though. Our main garden has not been harrowed or tilled and can't find someone close enough so maybe first year with no main garden for a very long time. Got lots of maters & peppers though.  

[Iommi]

Starting construction directly after felling is the standard procedure with the kind of construction you mention. There are many so called Scandinavian methods so it's not clear which particular method you intend. Will the logs be hewn on the in and outsides? Almost all Scandinavian log buildings are.  Which corner joint, there are many?
The moisture issue you mention is not a concern at all unless you misguidedly try sealing joints with some non-permeable material. Structurally you will have to understand and accommodate for significant shrinkage in the corner joint and anywhere vertical elements interact with horizontals, door jambs, window jambs and so on and so on as well as the roof

The corner would be with the saddle notch, and the belly of the logs grooved (full scribbing method) so I can put insulating in the groove. I was just concerned that the belly groove traps the humidity and the mold, especially with the sealing rubber joint that I want to put all around the groove.

[kantuckid]

Another e.g. of how my own home build had an interaction between a horizontal log wall and a vertical structural member is the log porch posts holding the porch roof. They stay the same height, while the wall lowers as it dries. 
Play with that one awhile... ;D 

An interior masonry chimney is yet another challenge. 
Windows and door openings are far from the sole drying allowance areas. 

Taking a look/see at the materials typically sold by a log/timber frame supply house will give you a basic indication of some materials used for these constructions. 

Green wood monstrosity: 
We shared, with two of our sons families, renting a huge, recently built rough lumber cabin incorporating many large beams and mostly all was air dried green built. Stayed there in N GA mtns the weekend before last on the Toccoa River where we ran the river in kayaks for 3 days. It was mostly built to be rented as an event cabin (it had only been rented a couple of times so far so nearly new) and had four stone fireplaces, two indoors, two at a deck and stacked- or so I thought at first!
 I noticed the floors were not level inside near the fireplaces and then saw the same thing on the deck upper fireplace. I got curious what was holding the immense upper decks fireplace and walked underneath it to see. I cringed to learn it was a disaster in the making IMO. No way the wooden beam arrangement under the tons of rock will stay as built! Not to mention that we tried a marshmellow fire in the upper deck for the kids and it didn't even draw properly. 
gain, this is designed as mostly a weddings, etc., event place which will have far greater floor loads than we happened to be. Looked neat though and can't say as I've ever seen kitchen counters covered with granite that are over 40' long-had a kitchen island that was ~ 30' long in granite. The two bar counters in the basement are ~25' long! 

I hope nobody gets hurt there. 
It was built entirely of green lumber but has a number of faulty design features is the (sort-of) connection to this thread.

[lshobie]

One reason to season the logs  is they become lighter and easier to move.  I milled a bunch of D-logs last summer and it was all I could do to get them in the drying stack with ramps.  Now nine months later I can put a log over my shoulder and carry it with no problem.  And I assume they will continue to lose weight as the dry more.

Hey Joe I'm curious how they turned out after drying, did they bow?  and how did the flats dry - are they humped?    Red pine?
Thanks!

[rusticretreater]

I live in a log home and have dealt with issues the previous owner didn't fix.

The reason log homes are built with green logs is that you can mill them easier than dry logs, plus slightly bend them to make them conform during the building process and they can flex a bit when the building settles.  I imagine the manufacturers would lose a lot of logs to waste if they tried to dry them straight.  Plus the cost increase would price the buyers out of the market.

The home is constructed of D shaped logs which are also tongue and grooved top and bottom to fit together.  The corners are overlapped like lincoln logs.

When we moved in, everything was fine.  A/C good.  I was lying in bed one morning and looked over and could see light coming in the corner of the bedroom.  I checked some of the other rooms and found we had holes all over the place.  A building defect or shrinkage, I don't know.  We bought backing rod(special foam strings of different sizes), plugged all the holes and then put on the log caulk.

The logs of the house have developed big cracks over time so you have to seal them to keep water out of the cracks.  You take care of this by filling the crack with the backing rod and coating with the caulk.  You don't want to fill the entire crack with caulk, it will tear over time. You only have to do the outside of the house. 

[Don P]

A true butt and pass ain't worth a flip. It doesn't take but a minute to turn that into a draftstopping notch and pass. Again multiple profiles from the V and A KyKid mentioned to vertical dovetails and cogged horizontal tails. Simply butting logs together in the corners, there is really no excuse.

This was one company's solution. Each manufacturer has their own details and profiles. This was a Northeastern, nice package, asphalt impregnated foam seals and KD logs (Nyle kilns). No white hair, about 30 years ago  :D.



 

 

 

[kantuckid]

There's one log home company about 5 miles away that does KD, another about 20 miles away. I've built both ways from multiple companies and much prefer dry. I've bought KD timbers from the company about 20 miles away. I've also built supposedly kd log homes that I can only assume both doors of the kiln were open and the cart never broke stride  :.

Look around Jamestown, TN for one area of log home mfg.'s who KD the wall logs. There are others and mostly seen with "logs" that are milled.
History trivia near the above locale- Famous WWI soldier and Medal of Honor recipient SGT York is from there. The local HS feature him as their hero mascot, etc.. We camp their in The Big South Fork Recreation area on the TN side. Oneida Log Homes near Oneida, TN is probably the larger of the mfg.'s there.
FWIW, last summer I cut some pines on my place for my loft ceiling joists, cut a flat for floor on one side and peeled them. they are now on blocks and sort of black w/mildew effects but will likely still use them after cleanup, no mold as such. 
 
I once worked in tech school with a HS carpentry instructor who'd built his own version of a log house using 6x6 rough sawed pine. He used small pieces of plywood as draft stops in corners and butt joints as his notion of a proper butt & pass corner joint. I never saw the home, just heard him talk about it. 

[lshobie]

A true butt and pass ain't worth a flip. It doesn't take but a minute to turn that into a draftstopping notch and pass. Again multiple profiles from the V and A KyKid mentioned to vertical dovetails and cogged horizontal tails. Simply butting logs together in the corners, there is really no excuse.

This was one company's solution. Each manufacturer has their own details and profiles. This was a Northeastern, nice package, asphalt impregnated foam seals and KD logs (Nyle kilns). No white hair, about 30 years ago  :D.

I agree that a true butt and pass could be made more effectively with just a little more work.  I changed the name on my thread from "Butt and pass" to "notch and pass" for that very reason.  I've seen some people building round log butt and pass with the logs suspended by spikes with large gaps on the lengths as well as large gaps at the ends (butts), which almost seems counterintuitive because of the added work chinking as well as heat loss.  Im building mine as an experiment with green logs, "D" profile and log on log.  Ill be building more on my property to check out different building methods, most most likely wont me leaving large gaps to chink as I dont think it makes much sense if you have the material to build log on log....and im not opposed to work but am limited on time.

[Joe Hillmann]

One reason to season the logs  is they become lighter and easier to move.  I milled a bunch of D-logs last summer and it was all I could do to get them in the drying stack with ramps.  Now nine months later I can put a log over my shoulder and carry it with no problem.  And I assume they will continue to lose weight as the dry more.

Hey Joe I'm curious how they turned out after drying, did they bow?  and how did the flats dry - are they humped?    Red pine?
Thanks!

I dont know yet.  They are still drying, waiting for spring to start building.
It is a mix of red and white pine, a lot of popple and some hardwoods.  The long ash log is the only one that I think is too bowed to use as is.
The long pine logs were kind of like spaghetti when taken off the mill.  I was careful when stacking them to dry so I assume they are still straight.

[Don P]

Got me looking in the OLD pics. Several of my young sweetwife grinning from ear to ear. Rockin chair stuff  .

This is what we used to align the logs as we lagged them together. The "inside" part of the jaw grabbed low on the upper log, the handle foot grabbed the upper part of the lower log. When you pull on the handle it slides the log horizontally towards the operator. So if the log needed moving you set it up either handle inside or handle outside depending on whether it needed to bow in or out. I have a speed square in my left hand running down the flat faces across the joint and I'm telling Nick how hard to pull as I run the lag. I gave the last version of that tool away to a local crew a few years ago, it went through at least a half dozen iterations after that very early one. It was welded with UHMW plastic feet by then. Always meant to make one with a bottle jack, porta-power style. Anyway, in pine or cedar our walls were flat, aligned at every lag and drawn down dollar bill tight in predrilled countersunk holes. This was pre battery tools, there was a stop and untangle at least once per day  :D.



 

[kantuckid]

As I recall,  the kid (now a local electrician in early 50's) who was helping me, either pulled or crowbar'ed them sideways. Or, maybe I fastened one end then used the log as a lever to straighten itself? Well, sort of. 
High-tech rednecks seen above on the wall.  :D

[Don P]

While I was in that box... This was a set of pics from when the forum was new. I was showing the V and A notch as an easy way to build with sawmilled logs. I ran into this mostly from the WI companies.

This is the joint. I found it easier to centerline all the logs and build to those lines, keep the lines plumb, straight and square.


 
I found it easier to rough the joint with a Prazi beam saw.


 
Then kerfing it with the chainsaw, or sawzall, or handsaw, and bring the faces of the joint into full contact.


 
Stack, check alignment. If there are any "underhangs" projecting wood from the log below... a water catching ledge, mark it up and drawknife the offending wood away. Create drip edges not water catching ledges.


 
Prebore/counterbore and run lags. The lag most companies used at the time was a 3/8x10" for 8" logs. When countersunk you had 3"+ of "bite" into the log below. The prebore was 1/2" to allow settlement. The counterbore is 1-1/8" to allow for the 1" typical washer on that size lag. In the NDS a 3/8" lag is the largest that can be run without a pilot in the log below, the method to their madness.




Running a power planer along the center of the underside will help keep the outer edges in contact as the drying log makes those flat faces convex. Ripping a lengthwise groove on the bottom edge will encourage it to check on that self draining face.

[Walnut Beast]

Pretty neat 👍

[kantuckid]

I plan to do this corner joint but will be using D-logs, not two bark edges. I bought a power hand planer just for the log bellies as DonP suggests. The MT Amish use two-6" timber screws too pull that joint together along with spray foam for a seal.
I've played around with how I'll use a Speed square/regular square or maybe make a simple jig to layout the joint marks? Not decided on that part yet. Centerlines are a must.

Noteworthy: The MT Amish leave a blunt tip on the "male" log end, not cutting all the way until cuts meet on the "female" cuts. I like that cut better than a full finish to the angle cuts-seems stronger as what woods left is more yet the entry in my mind is enough for joint strength. I wish I had that mortiser-pricey tool for a one-off build like mine. 

[lshobie]

I just put one log on the other and slice down - after a few times they are pretty much bang on and tight.  I tried 45s and marking but found that cutting downward thru both the male and female is the simplest and wastes less material.  I dont think these notches are as structurally integral as they are good for a sealing notch.

Cheers