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How do I darken Q-sawn oak rays without using stain?

Started by Brad_bb, April 06, 2018, 12:38:08 AM

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WDH

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Don P

I've seen micrographs of bluestain hyphae running in the rays, don't know if it is something along those lines or not.

Magicman

Quote from: WDH on April 23, 2018, 08:00:28 PMNo Sir, still a mystery to me.
I see it fairly often, just never gave it much thought until now.  I'll be sawing Post Oak today so I wonder what it will look like.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Brad_bb

So I built my tent, got the proper ammonia respirator, swim goggles, and chemical gloves.  I got a Pyrex glass pie pan at good will for the ammonia.
Here's the tent and two layers of 3 mil plastic  to protect the concrete.  


 


 
Here are the first samples I did.  The first two are Ash and there is virtually no change in the ash even after 24 hour fuming.  Next is 4 hr, then 8hr, then the next 3 are 24 hours, and finally at the end is the control that did not get any fuming(piece with the 45 degree cut on it).
There is a  minor difference between 4 and 8 hours, but not much.  24 hour samples are slightly darker than the 8hr.  I then took two of the 24 hour samples and did them another 24 for a total of 28 hours.  The difference was not terribly noticeable.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

PA_Walnut

A common method with figured maple is to aniline dye it, then sand off the color, where is sticks into the deeper pours of the wood.
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

Brad_bb

I'll give you a little taste of why I got on this path of finishing.  I'll have a full post on this in about a month.


 

 
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

tule peak timber

You might want to try EcoWoodTreatment, as it is cheap and easy. There are a number of "fumed products " out there- check out RubioMonocoat.Your next stop are dyes, water or solvent based. If you can find it Gilsonite in a solvent solution works well. I've also used steel wool and vinegar with so-so results.Rob
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

Brad_bb

Rob, as you can see from the pics, this fuming is working very well giving the white oak a rich brown color.  Vinegar/steel wool/water turns oak black, not brown, but black.  I've tried it a couple of times.  That method works great on non coastal doug fir though.  I did 2x6 T&G doug fir flooring with vinegar/steel wool/water.  I'll check out those other things.  Never hurts to have more techniques in your arsenal.  Different techniques seem to work well on some woods and not others. 
I'm an admirer of your work. 
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

tule peak timber

Super , you hit the nail on the head-different woods react differently to the various techniques. Keep up the good work ! :)
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

Crusarius

sure would love to see what that looks like with a clear poly on the 4 hour fumed pieces. I like that color alot. Could never find a stain that I liked to match that.

Brad_bb

Going to use 2 coats of General Finishes High Performance FLAT.  You have to keep it mixed to get a consistent finish.  It's What I've been using on all my barnwood trim.    Will post in a new thread when everything is done.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

PA_Walnut

I'm compelled to ask, why use toxic/dangerous chemicals which require suiting-up when water-based dyes are easier, safer, faster and more predictable? (and inexpensive?) ???

I'm kinda a purist, but dyes are excellent these days.
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

Brad_bb

Ammonia is a natural chemical, though man makes it also for his use.  It's speeding up the natural process by which barn wood darkens from the ammonia in animal urine from animals kept in the barn.

It produces a coloring and effect on white oak that no stain can produce.  This method is inexpensive as well.  The ammonia I bought was $26 plus shipping for the quart.  I use about 3/4 cup for each fuming session.  I could have bought it for about the same price for a gallon, but I didn't want to store unused product for a long amount of time.  This should get me through this project and for the next project I'll buy more.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Don P

That is a nice look, I'd like to see a closer shot of a sample flat and QS board with some finish when you get to that point. We've been going rounds with a raven on trash day, ammonia seems to deter him, one more use for spent product :D

Brad_bb

AFter fuming for 24 hours there is still a little liquid left in the pan.  I think it's just water and that the ammonia has all evaporated.  I cannot confirm this as I am not going to take my respirator off and smell it.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

PA_Walnut

Quote from: Brad_bb on May 14, 2018, 09:19:27 PMAmmonia is a natural chemical, though man makes it also for his use.  It's speeding up the natural process by which barn wood darkens from the ammonia in animal urine from animals kept in the barn. It produces a coloring and effect on white oak that no stain can produce.  This method is inexpensive as well.  The ammonia I bought was $26 plus shipping for the quart.  I use about 3/4 cup for each fuming session.  I could have bought it for about the same price for a gallon, but I didn't want to store unused product for a long amount of time.  This should get me through this project and for the next project I'll buy more.


In the past, I used potassium dichromate to "age" mahogany, but determined that the risk/reward ratio wasn't for me. I'm continually amazed and happy with water-based dyes that I can formulate to do exactly what I want. With curly maple, all of the stock colors and stains just didn't get it. I have my own formula of dyes for maple now, that I like a lot. (see pic below).

Now I'm excited, since I have 5 SUPER curly logs on deck, awaiting sawing and a trip to my private stash!  8)





Good luck with your project...I have a bunch of quarter sawn white oak that I'm drying to put in my cabin project. I'm interested in seeing your results. Be careful and safe!
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

scsmith42

Brad, if you want to experiment a little more, I can send you a few oz of 49%.  Just say the word.

Scott
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

WDH

PA, please tell me how to get that special maple dye.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Brad_bb

I don't understand Scott, higher concentration will just make it happen faster.  I don't think it will make it any darker will it?  FYI,The lighting in those pics plays games with the color rendering in the photos.  The sample pic is pretty accurate though.  Also, I wasn't aware you were doing any ammonia fuming?  I will make a new post when they are installed and I get some good pics with proper lighting. They look awesome.  Very nice material indeed.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

shinnlinger

If you want to turn oak jet black, drop some steel wool in white vinegar and wait a day or two.  Then rub it on the oak and it will turn black before your eyes.
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

shinnlinger

So not a great photo, but the counter on the right is simply white vinegar and steel wool on oak that I put in my wife's coffee shop.

 
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

scsmith42

Quote from: Brad_bb on May 17, 2018, 05:26:28 PM
I don't understand Scott, higher concentration will just make it happen faster.  I don't think it will make it any darker will it?  FYI,The lighting in those pics plays games with the color rendering in the photos.  The sample pic is pretty accurate though.  Also, I wasn't aware you were doing any ammonia fuming?  I will make a new post when they are installed and I get some good pics with proper lighting. They look awesome.  Very nice material indeed.
Brad, when I've fumed in the past the 49% was both faster as well as darker in terms of the end result.  Some of the boards were a very dark brown.

Is this the material that you got from me or something different?
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

biggbob

I have used water base dyes from W d Lockwood for years. Great company to work with. Have all the colors you could want. The metal complex are the best.

Brad_bb


Making this beam beam to go in my mom's new house.  Couldn't find a reclaimed hewn beam that was 18ft long and this wide of a face.  This beam was left over from my shop build 8 years ago.  I thought it was white oak when I pulled it out of my pole barn, but once I started cut the excess length off discovered it was red oak.

Doing some searching on the interwebs about fuming red oak I found out that there isn't enough tannic acid in red oak for the ammonia to react with.  It was suggested to brush on tannic acid.  I bought some powdered tannic acid of the net and then used the beam cut off do sample fuming.  I brushed on the acid on one section and let it dry, then I brushed it on another section wet and put it right in the fuming tent.  The wet area came out darker and the dry area seemed to have a bit more of a green hue to the brown.  We were successful in getting some good coloration, but this by itself did not look like an old beam as the color was too uniform.  The cut off was a planed beam at this point.  I used a wheel brush and took off some of the color on the surface.   Then my contractor and I experimented with both a tan stain, and a darker brown stain that had a bit of red to it.  Results varied by which was applied first and how much.  We experimented with both the wet and dry tannic acid sections.  At first I though the wet section was going to be the way to go, but as we took some color off, and add the Sherwin Williams oil based stains, the dry section samples seemed to come out better(which will also make it easier doing the big beam by not having the keep it all wet when put in the tent). I thought we were heading in the correct direction, but the contractor said we really needed to try this on a hew piece.  So I then took this sample and hewed one side.  Here it is after hewing:

We applied tannic acid and let it dry, then fumed it. I wheel brushed the surface lightly to remove only some color.  Fuming penetrates the wood up to 1/8", so while I was taking some of the darkest surface color, it's not the color of raw red oak under that, it's still a brown from fuming, just a bit lighter.  After fuming we experimented with the stains.  On the left, we applied the tan stain first.  Then some of the brown highlights.  On the right, I applied the dark stain first making sure to get it in the lowest areas and the axe chop marks.  Then a little wheel brushing, then some of the tan stain over that.  This gave it the most depth with the dark highlighting the recesses as would happen naturally with a reclaimed beam. It also highlighted the ring pores and small fleck you could see up close.  So this is the direction we decided to go.  The right side matches up the best with the reclaimed beams already in here house nearby.

I would like to try the tannic acid and fuming on white oak and see what I get as well as Quarter sawn white and red.  Wondering if it will make fleck darker...

Note: the picture above was fumed with tannic acid on the sample section, but above that you can see that the raw red oak still looks like new raw red oak.  The fuming had nearly no effect where there was no tannic acid applied.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

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