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General Forestry => Sawmills and Milling => Topic started by: Brad_bb on July 31, 2020, 10:25:03 PM

Title: To me it was too much.
Post by: Brad_bb on July 31, 2020, 10:25:03 PM
Well today I stopped by a sawyer who has a WM1000.  He specializes in slabbing.  I wanted to find out how he'd charge to slab my log.  My Ash log is 11ft long, 50 at the base, 40 in the middle, and 48 at the crotch.  I used an average diameter because of the hourglass shape and figure 900 BF.  I could slab it with my chainsaw mill and it would take me a day or day and a half if I dilly dally.  I'm looking for 3"  slabs on the outside and 2.75" or so towards the middle.  It should yield about 10 slabs.  That would mean 11 slabbing cuts.  I would have to bring the log to him.
   I asked how he would charge?  He said $1/BF.  I said the log is 900BF, but I'm just looking for 10 to 11 slabbing cuts.  $900 he said.  That was more than I was thinking, I told him,  especially because it's only 11 slab cuts.  I'm also a WM owner...and he immediately asked something about selling wood.  I told him I only mill for myself.  I wanted him to understand that I was familiar with milling.  I asked how long would that take you (I figured about an hour).  He said "an hour".  So your rate is $900/hour.  I was expecting maybe half that, I told him.  He said nope, other sawyers charge $1/BF.  He said it's specialized work few people can do.  I explained that I did have my chainsaw mill and could do it, but I was hoping for a mutually beneficial outcome to save me some work.  He then started taking about the cost of his mill... but I thanked him and told him it's just not worth it to me at that price.  For $900 I'm better off doing it myself.  I would work for $900 a day.  
  Afterwords I got to thinking that his place didn't look very busy.  If someone offered me $450/hour...
I also was thinking, It's one thing If I'd asked him to mill it into one inch, edged boards, but the same price for 11 slabbing cuts?  Am I off here or?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16191/IMG_8882.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1596248538)
 
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: firefighter ontheside on July 31, 2020, 10:34:29 PM
Whats the cost of a WM1000 versus something like LT35.  As with everyone else who is self employed, he is not just paying his own wages, but paying for the cost of doing business.  It seems high to me too, but I have to look at his side.  I have my price and I don't let people talk me down.  He had his price and didnt let someone talk him down.  
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Old Greenhorn on July 31, 2020, 11:04:01 PM
On the one hand I am thinking "yeah, good luck to you, if you can get that kind of price, more power to you". But then I think about the times I either owned or operated very special equipment with limited applications and realize they get a ridiculous price because of the purchase cost and the fact that they don't run often. I understand his perspective, and maybe he has some sweet customers that keep him busy maybe 12 hours a week, but provide his full income in those 12 hours. In which case, he has a sweet life. Still, I think with all the slabbing work you do, if he had given you an attractive rate, you might have brought him a lot more work and sold your CSM gear.
Some guys think they are very special, but perhaps this guy has the clients to support that rate. Either he will do very well, or you may be able to buy his mill at a good price in a year or so. ;D
Given what I know about you and your skills, I would have said 'thanks, but no thanks' also. That $900. charge comes right off whatever you can sell them for, and while I am thinking about it $1./BF seems a bit high for just milling without any drying or handling or other processes.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Walnut Beast on July 31, 2020, 11:13:10 PM
If you where on the other end you would want 💰. What will the slabs be worth 🤔
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: YellowHammer on July 31, 2020, 11:15:43 PM
Interesting topic.  I could see him asking $1 but I also think that in short order he will either be rich or broke. 

I would have walked, also.  Then I would take that $900 and put a down payment on a Lucas or Peterson with a 6 foot slabber bar, and cornered the market by charging $0.75 per bdft.    ;D

A half a dozen good jobs and the mill is paid for.  
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Walnut Beast on July 31, 2020, 11:19:02 PM
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on July 31, 2020, 10:34:29 PM
Whats the cost of a WM1000 versus something like LT35.  As with everyone else who is self employed, he is not just paying his own wages, but paying for the cost of doing business.  It seems high to me too, but I have to look at his side.  I have my price and I don't let people talk me down.  He had his price and didnt let someone talk him down.  
That is well said. 
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Walnut Beast on July 31, 2020, 11:22:07 PM
It does seem he could barter a little. If he would have said 575.00 would you have done it
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Walnut Beast on July 31, 2020, 11:27:46 PM
Quote from: YellowHammer on July 31, 2020, 11:15:43 PM
Interesting topic.  I could see him asking $1 but I also think that in short order he will either be rich or broke.

I would have walked, also.  Then I would take that $900 and put a down payment on a Lucas or Peterson with a 6 foot slabber bar, and cornered the market by charging $0.75 per bdft.    ;D

A half a dozen good jobs and the mill is paid for.  
It is a interesting topic. I wouldn't pay that either. And what YHammer says is what I plan on doing when I get into my big stuff 
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Sawmill Man on August 01, 2020, 12:07:10 AM
 Starting to sound like everyone thinks it easy to saw through 50 inches of anything in a straight line and then load 600 lbs of table top slab that customer doesnt want a scratch on it. Every thing about slabbing is to me more expensive and time consuming  overall complicated compared to sawing siding and framing lumber,which i would rather do.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Brad_bb on August 01, 2020, 12:10:36 AM
Thanks for the responses guys.  

Quote from: YellowHammer on July 31, 2020, 11:15:43 PM
I could see him asking $1 but I also think that in short order he will either be rich or broke.  
Yeah, that's what I thought.  I also thought he must not be in a hurry to pay off the mill if he's turning such business away.  As i said, his yard wasn't rife with logs needing to be milled.  I highly doubt he is anywhere near capacity.

@Walnut Beast (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=49695), I don't know what the slabs are worth because I don't sell anything.  Never have.  I have given  away a few to a couple acquaintances.   I don't think the value of the slabs should factor into it for him.  He should set his price by his costs and what he thinks is reasonable to make on top of that.  He was hinting at what I could sell them for.  I told him I don't sell anything, ( plus I think that's really none of his business).  If I put work into a slab, dry it, flatten it, sell it, plus it was my log... then I deserve to make money based on my costs, reasonable profit, and the market.  (Though I have no plans to do this).  This is the last of my slab logs, and the slabs I have now should last me til I die. I have multiple tables to make for my new house, my mom's new house, our barn tack room, plus counter tops, and a few more tables.  I'll probably make one for my GC and our horse trainer.  I'll also have table material for my nieces by the time they are old enough.

I honestly have the impression that his pricing was based more on ego than anything else, the way he came off.  As my GC always says "Pigs get fat, Hogs get slaughtered!"

Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: barbender on August 01, 2020, 12:16:26 AM
I wonder what he would have said if you  had asked him an hourly rate first? I doubt he would've came back at $900/hr..
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Brad_bb on August 01, 2020, 12:16:35 AM
@Sawmill Man (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=18914) , I'm not so sure he even moves the slabs, other than the first slab will have to come off before rolling so there is a flat bottom, and you'd use a forklift to remove that slab.  Slices the whole log consecutively.  It would have been up to me to take home and restack/sticker and brush the dust out.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Brad_bb on August 01, 2020, 12:17:50 AM
@barbender (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1286) , that was part of the conversation when he confirmed it would take him an hour to slab...and his price was still $900.  Point being he was clear in that he didn't have an hourly rate, only a BF rate.  Not right to me given that the same log BF could take and hour to mill or 3 hours depending on what you want out of it.  I'm sure if I had agree to $900 but said I wanted all 4/4 boards he would have said NO.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Southside on August 01, 2020, 12:40:25 AM
Just playing devil's advocate here. If you spend a day slabbing the log and in the process blow up your saw, does the $900 become a great deal? 

Sometimes customers get a "I don't want to do the job, so you have to make it worth my while" price. 
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: terrifictimbersllc on August 01, 2020, 04:44:48 AM
I slabbed mostly with my Peterson for 8 yrs.  Charged by square foot area sawn. At the end, $2.25 per square foot, $2.50 if cut width over 42".  Customer had to have log in good setup area, and remove slabs as I sawed them. Had some commercial customers who I would discount 10-15% if things went well.  

I used my Excel calculator on your log.  22" radius, 11 ft, 3/8 kerf, split pith, 3" slabs.

My estimate would have been 415 square feet sawn area, 13 cuts to give 12 slabs 17-48" wide. At $2.25, total $933. Not counting a little more for three cuts over 42".  

If I run the same numbers using 1/8" kerf, I get 435 square feet sawn area, not a lot different.

415 square feet of sawn area, x 3" thick slabs, that is 1245 board feet. I get 1017 BF for 44" x 11' international scale. Substantial overrun because of thickness and full width.

This job would have taken me a whole day at a residential customer's. Not counting setup/packing up/driving actual sawing maybe 5 hr if slabs removed promptly and things went well which they often didnt.  I would not have charged time for hitting metal or difficulty with my milling.

You didnt say if the sawing would take two people or not.  1 hour 12 slabs is 5 minutes each including removing slabs, unloading/loading, setting up log.  Doesnt seem realistic to me. I wouldnt think he could process log aftr log from a customer's trailer at that pace.

Not every phone call turned into a job for me with this mill.  Many obstacles for residential customers to overcome, the usual three...logs are heavy, lumber is heavy, wood has to be dried, and then the cost.
My charging was too much even with some discount for some sawmills who would otherwise have been customers. But I did OK, sold the mill with about 250 hours on the engine and paid for it more than twice over, but had to work for that. But I was at where Southside said, doing no one a favor if my charging left me not wanting to take jobs. 

I guess I conclude that you got your answer, it is too much for you to pay, but apparently not too much for him to charge.  There's a lot built in to his pricing and that's where he is.  Maybe you try this log with him, show him what kind of customer you are, and nicely ask in the future if he's interested in some repeat volume with you.



Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Walnut Beast on August 01, 2020, 05:21:52 AM
Peterson had there live demo days and my interest was the slabbing. In the video they had the WPF 10 with clip on slabber. That's there slowest Running unit at 1900 rpm. On a redwood log that was 25.5 inches wide and 6 feet long it took it 5 minutes and 20 seconds. The dedicated slabber runs 6,500 rpm and it slabbed the same log in one minute fifty eight seconds. 
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: terrifictimbersllc on August 01, 2020, 05:39:21 AM
I had the WPF10.  Not long in, I put a smaller pulley on the input shaft of the gearbox, just for slabbing. This increased the slabber speed and cutting rate dramatically. It was necessary to put the original pulley back on to use it as a swing mill. 

A swing mill has to be set up for the blade speed.  The 8" mill is a good match for both blade and slabbing chain speed.  The 10" mill has to run slower because the blade diameter is larger.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Peter Drouin on August 01, 2020, 05:56:38 AM
I get cheap customers come in and try to talk me down all the time. Just had one guy send a truckload of logs in all 16'. He sees the load and wants me to cut them all in half for him.
I said sure for $$ more. 
Too much He will do it himself. Ok I said. When you go to have something done for yourself that you can't do don't complain he's too much $$$
If you were in my yard and only wanted to pay 1/2 price I will show you the door.
What do you think the blades cost on the thing. did you talk about hitting iron.
One thing nice about having a higher price he won't have you coming in and wasting his time anymore. :)
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Walnut Beast on August 01, 2020, 06:03:49 AM
Hey Terrific what would you say was the average width with all the different slabbing jobs you did
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: terrifictimbersllc on August 01, 2020, 06:09:16 AM
Avg diameter log, maybe 40?

I had an lt40 super the whole time wouldn't have used the slabber if that could do the job.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: terrifictimbersllc on August 01, 2020, 06:13:45 AM
I don't think Brad's question is out of line, nor the Sawyers charging. In the end, it's just wood and work. There's no right answer.

I had a regular customer who often said "everyone else's gig looks great until you try to do it yourself"
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Walnut Beast on August 01, 2020, 06:18:09 AM
Thank for all your information 👍
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Bruno of NH on August 01, 2020, 06:42:16 AM
To me it's the moving of the log and handling of the slabs.
I think the price was in the ball park.
That's just my opinion there is a cost of doing business. 
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: longtime lurker on August 01, 2020, 06:56:46 AM
I quoted a job yesterday - seriously big one - and I know they're going to come back and tell me "too expensive."
And I know I'm not going to budge because their "too expensive" is my "cost + a reasonable margin"
Then they're going to tell me what they cam get it done for up the road
Then I'm going to remind them that they're talking to me for a reason.
And I'll either be busy sawing for them a month later or I'll be sawing some other job.... either way it'll be sawing at a price that sees my bills will get paid.

It's all fun and games until you've got every cent you possess tied up in property and equipment, and I'd be loath to say anyone else doing a job I can't/don't want to is too expensive. (except when they're too expensive lol)  FWIW I think the guy was too expensive.... you buy a bigger faster saw to run more an hour, but usually that more an hour equates to a lower cost of production. But specialised is specialised too so.... what its worth is individual dependant I feel.

You'll save yourself a couple hundred $ with the CSM allowing for the cost of your labour and good for you. (assuming nothing goes wrong and you dont need a chiropractors visit or 3 after). I've had that internal debate a lot lately myself..... just stay small /work hard / live simply / if I don't borrow money I don't have to pay it back. Problem is I don't see that as a way to do anything but work yourself to death in this industry anymore.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: moodnacreek on August 01, 2020, 07:45:14 AM
A log like that needs to be sawn as cheap as possible. It is hardwood, old, looks decayed and has a crotch in it. The planks will probably twist and split. After 3 years on sticks only the sound flat ones will sell and the others will have to be shortened and resawn. To start out spending $ 900 would be crazy. Get out the chainsaw and files.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Magicman on August 01, 2020, 08:38:32 AM
Regardless of the price, he was correct for not negotiating.  I certainly don't negotiate. 

As far as the price; I charge a third of that for normal sawing so is his specialty sawing price out of line considering his specialty investment?
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: richhiway on August 01, 2020, 08:41:07 AM
The real cost of doing business and making a living is very high these days. The sawmill business is probably 50% "hobbyist" that do it part time and make a few dollars on the side.

So you can see in this instance where the two collided.

Of course you can do anything yourself for less,that is why most of us bought a mill to begin with.

Call a plumber lately?

Big difference making a living at something or doing it on the "side".

Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: btulloh on August 01, 2020, 08:48:29 AM
Very interesting discussion. 
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Sixacresand on August 01, 2020, 09:14:22 AM
Probably he charges $900 because there is not a line of pickups and trailers waiting in the parking lot.  That may be the only job he has that week or month.  
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: dgdrls on August 01, 2020, 09:17:25 AM
"Am I off here or? "

I don't think its a question of being "off"
You asked for a service,  a price was given.
Your thought of what it should cost simply framed your go/no-go decision.

Question I have;  is a $1 B/F what other mills charge?  If so, he has no incentive to lower his fee,
Once the price goes down, word spreads and everyone wants that fee and will pull out some crazy coupon for another %10 off.

I suspect you'll mill it with the CSM and be happy you did. 

Best
D





Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: WV Sawmiller on August 01, 2020, 09:26:14 AM
Brad, 

  I have a counterpart with a Lucas slabber one county over that I used a couple years ago to slab a big walnut for me. A little smaller than your ash but similar. I had him cut it into 9/4 slabs and I left the center at 4.5" rather than splitting the pith. His rate was 50 cents per bf. I have sold one of those slabs so far and recovered my sawing and transportation expenses.

   He had a Lucas slabber set up in an old chicken house. He had a big loader outside to unload the log and load the slabs on my trailer. He had a forklift he used to position the log and remove the slabs from the sawing site inside. He had a roller table and as he cut every slab he put small pipe rollers between the slab and the cant and rolled them on to his table where he could get his forklift to them.

    I would have thought a a square inch/square ft price would have been more appropriate than a bf of the finished slab but that was his price and I thought it was reasonable, agreed to it, paid it and I would use him again if I need him. He did very good work.

    In this case I agree the sawyer has a lot of expensive equipment to pay for and maintain and think of him as a skilled tradesman doing the work so I would not consider his pricing out of line. You can always ask him "Can you saw it for ____?" then you decide if he agrees, says no or offers a compromise. In all honesty I don't negotiate on my sawing. I may be able to waive mileage or minimum charges if they are a repeat customer, close by or in an area where I will already be working but I don't normally offer such to new customers. Good luck.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: mike_belben on August 01, 2020, 09:29:08 AM
Iife goes on.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Brad_bb on August 01, 2020, 10:04:31 AM
Quote from: Peter Drouin on August 01, 2020, 05:56:38 AM
What do you think the blades cost on the thing. did you talk about hitting iron.
One thing nice about having a higher price he won't have you coming in and wasting his time anymore. :)
We didn't even get to that point.  But I assume like any other bandmill, he hits metal, I pay for the band.
And now we know so he won't be wasting my time either.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Brad_bb on August 01, 2020, 10:18:41 AM
Thanks again everyone for your reactions thoughtful responses.  

I'm not faulting anyone for sticking to their price.  When you have a price you've determined, you should stick to it, and only you can make the decision of whether to change it based on any of the factor involved.  His price just shocked me, and I had a hard time making sense of it.

He said is mill was $80K. One of my afterthoughts was that the guy I use for excavating has more expensive single pieces of equipment than that, but his rate is no where near that.  The crane and operator we've hired is nowhere near that.  Again, it's his prerogative to set his own price and I have no qualm with that, other than there's no way in good conscience I can pay that versus a day or day and a half of my time.

Maybe he only wants to work part time?  I don't know. FYI, his father owns a large pallet company down the road a half mile.  I was buying pallets that day and trying to kill two birds with one stone.  I was planning to have the log hauled and the pallets back hauled.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: WV Sawmiller on August 01, 2020, 10:38:33 AM
Brad,

   Your call and nobody is faulting you for declining that price. You mention his mill is $80k. How much is his loader or forklift and other equipment he will be using? They factor in too. Are there other folks in the area who can do the work? If so what are their rates? Good luck.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: doc henderson on August 01, 2020, 11:08:49 AM
I think you should get at least some professional courtesy!  as a fellow sawyer.  
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Tom King on August 01, 2020, 11:17:08 AM
I don't have anything to add, but would be curious to know how used his equipment looked.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: WV Sawmiller on August 01, 2020, 11:18:00 AM
Doc,

   Do you get a discount from other ER docs? Or maybe at least a little extra KY on the gloves before your exam or such? :D :D
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Ljohnsaw on August 01, 2020, 11:18:29 AM
Very interesting thread!

Somewhat related.  I had a hydraulic hose split on my SkyTrac for the steering this week.  I could still steer, just not fast movements or it would spray.  About a 18" hose, ¾" outside so 3/8" inside?  Took it to the hydraulic shop and thought about replacing all 4 since they are pretty old.  How much are those fittings, maybe $10 each in bulk?  Probably less?  And the hose is pretty cheap when they buy massive quantities.  I do cash-no-receipt with them for a discount.  So he quotes me the list price first - $65.  Cash is $55.  Only had enough cash for one.  I don't negotiate but probably could have got it for $50.  Could I make it cheaper with screw-on fittings?  Probably, but wouldn't look as nice and I wouldn't have it in the 5 minutes it took them to make it.  When I replaced all the hoses on my Little Monster, the list price was $1,600 IIRC and I got them for $900 cash.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: doc henderson on August 01, 2020, 11:38:20 AM
when I started, we did a lot of "curbside" consults.  I did it for anyone who worked for the hospital.  in the office I would bill "insurance only"  so no copay or deductible or out of pocket.  then the insurance co. said you have to charge us the same as you lowest price to anyone.  so 0$.  Now if we provide service, and no documentation, our malpractice carrier may refuse to cover a claim.  Occ. a fellow doc will pop in a room to get something lanced and or a steri strip or two.  WV you are not supposed to get that checked every week! :o :o :o :D :D :D
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Peter Drouin on August 01, 2020, 12:44:47 PM
The minute you start looking for a discount your wasting his time.
Just like greedy customers. Had one tell me if I can get this job for you to cut the logs I want a % of the bill.
I have timber framers I recommend to the customers and don't ask for $$$.
Maybe lost $$$ I just don't go that low for a buck.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Don P on August 01, 2020, 12:45:47 PM
When people ask what my hourly rate is I'll often enough get "Wow, you're expensive" to which I reply "I'm expensive, but I'm slow". They either understand or we part with a laugh.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: hopm on August 01, 2020, 02:51:57 PM
Learned a lot on this forum through the years....learned a lot on this thread.....I be working waaaay too cheap
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Larry on August 01, 2020, 05:18:34 PM
Sounds like the going price here for the big logs, but the guys are running some kind of slabbers and working for there money.

For real sticker shock, check out what the guys with idry kilns are getting to dry them.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Walnut Beast on August 01, 2020, 05:25:44 PM
That guy down your way has 3 of them
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: stavebuyer on August 01, 2020, 07:11:16 PM
I think the WM1000 is closer to 60 than 80 but its his mill so he charge what ever he wants; but its your money and I am glad you kept it. No way I would pay anyone $1bf for any sawing; let alone slabbing 12/4.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: ladylake on August 02, 2020, 08:18:06 AM
  
 Me, I'd rather have $450 than nothing.  $900 a hour is crazy for a machine less than $100000.  $500000 excavators might charge $250 a hour and there expenses are way more.   Steve 
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Tom King on August 02, 2020, 08:39:00 AM
I looked up that mill.  It's 72k, and that includes WM setting it up, and teaching you how to use it.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Ruffgear on August 02, 2020, 09:01:21 AM
Work less for more.. I like his thinking
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: ladylake on August 02, 2020, 09:58:35 AM


 Or no work.  Greed.   Steve
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Sawmill Man on August 02, 2020, 11:11:08 AM
Got to admit 900 an hour sounds expensive and on top of that I didnt believe it was possible to slab that log in an hour and have nice straight slabs. I slabbed a white oak log almost the same size as Brad's last week and it took the better part of two days, bear in mind I wasnt runnin no races and its been hot. That includes unloading and sawing and and sharpening after every two cuts and getting stacked out of my way. I put a pencil to it to see what excactly my time with the blade in the log was and was very surprised to find I had roughly 49 minutes of saw in the wood time. I get a 1$ a bdft for slabbing and people seem happy to pay it other millers included and I dont live in a rich part of the country. I must be doing something wrong but I try to keep it enjoyable.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: B.C.C. Lapp on August 02, 2020, 11:39:41 AM
I going to ad my two cents here.

First, his price is his price for his reasons.  He didn't come down and I would not either.

Second, I think his price is two high.  I figure it should be about 75 cents a board ft.  for specialized milling, something most mills aren't set up for.

Third, I would not have payed his price if I had any options and the OP did.  So he took his options and he'll handle the work himself.   Good decision I think. 
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: customsawyer on August 02, 2020, 12:52:18 PM
I'm going to look at this from another angle. If the customers brings me their logs to saw I charge 35 cents a bf. I'm the cheapest one I know of in my neighborhood. If a customer wants and has the log for quartersawed I charge 80 cents a bf. Several on here have seen my layout. I actually make more per hour sawing regular logs at the lower rate. I also have a Lucus dedicated slabber that I recently picked up and have been thinking about what to charge for it. I don't think his price of a buck per bf. is out of line. Last time I had Nomad bring his Lucus up here it took us 1.5 days to saw 3 logs. If this guy is off on anything I would think it is the amount of time to cut the log. Regardless of how long it took him to saw the log I don't think his price per bf. is to far out of line. I know there are some on here sawing for 25 cents and some sawing for 50 cents per bf. Lots has to do with location and amount of competition in a given area. Another factor is if this is their living or if it is a hobby and some side money.
I recently had a guy bring me 5 semi loads of cypress for sawing. He asked for a volume discount. Needless to say he didn't get one. We sawed, and stickered over 35,000 bf off those trucks in 5 days. It was a decent week but we earned every penny. Once you factor in labor cost, equipment cost, insurance, and all the other overhead that goes with running a business it doesn't go as far as one would think.  
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: barbender on August 02, 2020, 01:06:32 PM
Good words, Jake. 
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: busenitzcww on August 02, 2020, 01:29:30 PM
A milling company down the road from me just got a wm1000 and I nearly croaked when I heard $300 per hour..... They can charge whatever they want but I probably will be sticking with alternative methods to bust a oversized log.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Walnut Beast on August 02, 2020, 02:49:39 PM
I just remembered. I checked on a guy that had a bandsaw slabber. And his price was 50 cents a board ft. for 2 3/8. If you go thinner then a little more. I personally think that is extremely fair. Obviously I would have to take the logs there and I would expect to help him unload and load. 
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Walnut Beast on August 02, 2020, 03:04:23 PM
Another thing to factor in is quality equipment. If your paying someone by the hr. Who would you want ? A guy with a chainsaw slabber or a guy with a Woodmizer 1000. 🤔. People often overlook the quality of equipment aspect. That can influence quality of product and cost of job. 
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: terrifictimbersllc on August 02, 2020, 03:53:30 PM
About 5 yrs back I called a company in western MA who has a Woodmizer 1000 for info about their sawing charges. It was $400/hr with two employees. They required the customer to wait while the job was performed.  I referred customers to them sometimes when my sawing at the site was not an option or logs were too big for me. Or if the potential customer was out of state. This company also has a vac kiln and sells an incredible array of slabs.

IMO if someone can do $800 worth of work in 2hr then $400/hr is a fair deal.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Magicman on August 02, 2020, 04:02:14 PM
If I read it correctly the sawing was never quoted by the hour.  The sawing rate was $1.00 per bf and the estimated time to saw it was one hour.  Yes the same but not the same.  

The Wood-Mizer1000 is a specialty sawmill and his may only get minimal use.  Who knows?  He has established his sawing rate and whether Brad or anyone else agrees with his rate is a moot point.  Surely in addition to the sawmill he has also factored in the log/slab handling equipment, labor, and whatever else he may need.  It's his house and his game, play or go home.  

I have seen advice given here many time when sawyers are overwhelmed with work and can not maintain a reasonable sawing schedule.  Answer; raise your sawing rate.  Sure, some customers may/will drop out but you are still sawing full time, you can now maintain a reasonable sawing schedule, plus you are making the same or even more $$$.

EDIT:  I was looking back and rereading what I wrote and noticed that this is my 40,000th post here on the Forestry Forum.  August 4th will be my 11 year anniversary.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: barbender on August 02, 2020, 04:15:23 PM
That's a lot of posts, Magic!
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: barbender on August 02, 2020, 04:18:05 PM
The job could well have taken 3 hours from the time the customer arrived, and the log was unloaded and specifics discussed. Then the slabs offloaded, and loaded on the trailer.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Bruno of NH on August 02, 2020, 04:35:02 PM
I'm with you Barbender 
Unload ,saw,remove slabs and load.
Everyone's cost of doing business is different.
I seen one big pine log chainsawn milled in my yard.
Not by me .
It was a lot of work.
If I was going to saw anything over 34" wide I would have a tru-cut,lx250,Cooks wide,or
Baker slab mill.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Walnut Beast on August 02, 2020, 06:25:21 PM
Where the chainsaw slabber shines is it's portable as terrific would know
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Walnut Beast on August 02, 2020, 06:35:48 PM
Quote from: Bruno of NH on August 02, 2020, 04:35:02 PM
I'm with you Barbender
Unload ,saw,remove slabs and load.
Everyone's cost of doing business is different.
I seen one big pine log chainsawn milled in my yard.
Not by me .
It was a lot of work.
If I was going to saw anything over 34" wide I would have a tru-cut,lx250,Cooks wide,or
Baker slab mill.
TimberKing has a good one it's the 5600. A member of the FF seems very happy with Hudson Oscar and he has slabbed a lot 
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: D6c on August 02, 2020, 07:01:32 PM
Since I haven't done a lot of custom sawing I struggle with what to charge.  
For common sawing (4/4 to 6/4) a bf pricing seems reasonable.  That takes the sawing speed out of the equation.... I'm sure I'm slower because of experience and using an older machine, but don't have the investment of a newer faster machine.

For specialty sawing such as slabs I would think a square ft. prices would be fair.  By the b.f. a 4" slab would cost twice as much as a 2" for the same cutting time and you'll likely have to handle either one with a machine anyway so not much difference in physical work.
It's a free country (sort of) so folks can price it how they like, and customers can say ok or walk away.
Most likely I would have walked away too, but that's just me.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: longtime lurker on August 02, 2020, 07:41:21 PM
FWIW I don't do a lot of outside work and mostly dodge slabs but what I do slab tends to be wider.

Regular sawing we charge by volume m3 (BF) but slabs we always charge by the hour.

Logs harder - takes longer - customer pays.
Logs full of metal - takes longer - customer pays plus pays for chain damage
Logs full of tension and I have to keep rolling an 8000lb piece of wood - takes longer - customer pays.
Logs full of silica - takes longer - customer pays.
Logs that bad it's not cost effective in my opinion to saw - call the customer and explain, ask them if they want to pay.

I don't need any practice and I refuse to pay money to saw. I have built a rep for being very expensive and great value for money and its exactly around these weird outsize jobs where you look at a guy and say "I have no idea how long this will take but we don't mess about" that that rep comes in handy. *shrugs* Theres 3 contract slabbing jobs in the yard today, total maybe 20 tonne of log.... seems to be working.

I want to get the hell away from slabs really - I like boards and they dont break the back handling them. Mostly, although its the 10 x 3's that hurt you.... you think you can lift them around. Cant do that with 5 foot wide slabs.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: alan gage on August 03, 2020, 09:58:22 AM
I ca only think of two reasons to improve your skills and efficiency by getting smarter or buying better equipment; or both:

One reason is so that you can produce the same amount of work with less time and effort.

The other reason is so that you can produce more work with the same time and effort.

If doing less work is your desire, as in option 1, then you'd be foolish to lower your prices no matter how quickly you're now getting the work done. Otherwise you'll end up working just as hard for the same pay after investing a lot of time to gain experience or investing a lot of money for equipment.

If you go for option 2 you can lower your prices and still make considerably more money (assuming you're not charging hourly) because you're still working just as hard but now you're producing 3x the amount of product. That's assuming there is always enough good work coming in.

If I had a dedicated slabbing mill here I think I could saw for .25/bf and still not be busy. There just isn't a large market for that. That means that option 2 would not work for me because I don't have the volume to make up for a lower price. The only option that could make it work would be to charge a premium for the handful of people that need that type of work done. If I went broke I'd rather go broke doing nothing than to go broke busting my hump while losing money. 

I have no idea what the slabbing market is where Brad lives.

Alan
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: redbeard on August 04, 2020, 01:12:57 AM
A Generic price too slab out big logs we charge $10.00 a inch based  on the diameter average from big end and small end  8' logs and less.
There are some some variables on longer logs and Stumps and short stuff under 4' that takes time too clamp up and secure.
A log like Brad's would run $350- $400
The guy with the  WM1000  is a bit high on his milling fees. If it were really wide cuts like 55"-72" I could see those kind of prices would be fair.
Under 48" is a pretty easy slice for wide band blade sawmills with adequate HP.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: WV Sawmiller on August 04, 2020, 11:03:54 AM
   My thoughts after reading all these comments are that the miller's rate is fair but on the high end. Nothing wrong with that and there is nothing wrong with declining his offer if it is not worth that to you. Its not price gouging, not a rip off, not an insult - just business and we all make similar pricing and purchase decisions every day without getting offended. Nothing wrong with making a counter offer or with him declining that either.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: ajkoontz on August 06, 2020, 01:09:54 PM
Would he still charge $1/ BF if you wanted it cut in 1/2" slabs? What if you just wanted it cut in half? Still the same $900 either way, right? Seems off to me.

Had a similar situation that I wanted some beams cut and one sawyer wouldn't budge on his normal BF rate. I even put it to him similar to the above- ie you're basically telling me you'll saw a 12x12 into 10 boards 'for free' if you charge me the same BF price for beams as lumber and he just wouldn't budge. Worked out good though because that pushed me over the edge into (eventually) buying my own mill. Thankfully this is just a hobby for me as I do appreciate that sawing for $$ is not as profitable as one would hope. 
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: terrifictimbersllc on August 06, 2020, 01:14:35 PM
If you do get into sawing for $ be careful about lowering your rates for beams vs 1x lumber. Just a heads up. 
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: ajkoontz on August 06, 2020, 02:58:08 PM
Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on August 06, 2020, 01:14:35 PM
If you do get into sawing for $ be careful about lowering your rates for beams vs 1x lumber. Just a heads up.
What's the 'gotcha' with sawing lumber vs beams that I am missing? Less time with the saw in the wood should cost less right? I'm not doubting you, just trying to learn something today.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: garyfg on August 06, 2020, 03:39:03 PM
Weight per beam over stick of lumber to move around
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: barbender on August 06, 2020, 03:41:00 PM
Pick that beam up and throw it on your shoulder and you'll figure it out pretty quickly😁
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: terrifictimbersllc on August 06, 2020, 03:56:11 PM
Customer in sweatpants and flip-flops can make one X lumber disappear pretty fast so that you can indeed keep the "saw in the wood".Same guy and his brother will stand there looking at you, the Sawyer, when you make the first 8 x 8 oak beam that he asked for, wondering "what am I supposed to do with this?".

Furthermore, until one has been doing it a while, one won't be able to come close to cutting a straight accurate beam in the same time as an accurate 1x board even though they both only have four sawn faces. This takes some explanation maybe later.

Put these two together, and the Sawyer who has the experience and has arranged a setup to crank out beams with little "time with blade not in wood" will deserve to be getting paid the same bf rate for both beams and lumber.

That guy can then decide to give a break in the price if he wants to but the customer shouldn't necessarily expect to get one.

Same type of question is familiar to sawyers cutting 2x vs 1x, especially framing lumber. Same basic issues as to why it's not half as much work. 
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: ajkoontz on August 06, 2020, 04:51:40 PM
See I chalked it up to the guy just didn't want to deal with me because he didn't give me any of the reasons listed above. Makes more sense now. I always understood the concept of the guy with the highest price per hour might be the best deal because of various reasons but I always figured everything else being equal, beams should be less work than 1x. Now I know better.

I'll add, most of the how-to sawing videos out there are marketing to sell sawmills and such so the ratio of videos making sawyering look easy to showing how it really is skews heavily towards making everything look easy. That's why I lurk here from time to time to get the real scoop on sawing.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Ianab on August 06, 2020, 05:05:04 PM
Quote from: ajkoontz on August 06, 2020, 04:51:40 PMI'll add, most of the how-to sawing videos out there are marketing to sell sawmills and such so the ratio of videos making sawyering look easy to showing how it really is skews heavily towards making everything look easy


If it was easy, everyone would be doing it :D

At least on the forum you see the breakdowns, the miss-cuts (or at least some of them), the metal strikes etc. And when someone posts a pic of their end of the day beer, they usually deserve it. 
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Bruno of NH on August 06, 2020, 05:31:10 PM
Saw some beams for a picky Timber framer or a high end builder and load them in a U- Haul box truck like I see Peter Drouin do once  :).
You will understand why
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: stavebuyer on August 06, 2020, 07:23:16 PM
The man with the WM1000 might have priced it at $900 because he didn't want the job??
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: moodnacreek on August 06, 2020, 09:21:21 PM
Quote from: ajkoontz on August 06, 2020, 02:58:08 PM
Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on August 06, 2020, 01:14:35 PM
If you do get into sawing for $ be careful about lowering your rates for beams vs 1x lumber. Just a heads up.
What's the 'gotcha' with sawing lumber vs beams that I am missing? Less time with the saw in the wood should cost less right? I'm not doubting you, just trying to learn something today.
Anybody can saw 1x for the most part. In hardwood for instance just going to 2x presents problems you don't have with 1x. Often logs start to spring when a board is sawn off and the thicker the cut to worse it is. Sawing 1x gives the sawyer more control and the ability to saw around problems.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Brad_bb on August 06, 2020, 09:50:48 PM
I've milled a lot of beams in the last 5 years.  I've also milled a lot of  2x and 1x in the last 6 months.  I can tell you that I can cut beams a lot faster (manual mill).  And, who handles beams by hand?  That's just crazy.  You must have a forked machine.  With my little tractor forklift, I easily move beams.  

@stavebuyer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=15189)   Slabbing is what he does!  And judging by his yard, didn't look booked up.  I originally heard about him from another sawyer nearby(LT50 owner).  What he originally told me gave me the impression that he didn't have the best impression and he never ended up taking him work.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Magicman on August 06, 2020, 10:06:00 PM
Quote from: Brad_bb on August 06, 2020, 09:50:48 PMAnd, who handles beams by hand? That's just crazy. You must have a forked machine.
Maybe you "must" but in my job forked machines are not always available.  I use what the customer has.

I have sawn 14 twenty foot 6X6's so far on this job that I am presently sawing and all have been removed from the sawmill, loaded onto a trailer, offloaded and stickered by hand.  And yes, bf rate.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Larry on August 06, 2020, 10:38:20 PM
Quote from: Brad_bb on August 06, 2020, 09:50:48 PM
And, who handles beams by hand?  That's just crazy.  You must have a forked machine.  With my little tractor forklift, I easily move beams.  
I agree handling beams by hand is not smart.  Smashed fingers, dropping on ones toes, hurting a back, and who knows what else.  At the same time one doesn't necessary need a forked machine.  I sometimes use my dragback with a roller table to load them directly into a trailer backed up.  I try to saw smarter as its in my genes to be quite lazy!

Back to the slabbing.  I talked with a friend today that took a similar size walnut log to a guy that runs a D&L slabber.  The bill, 14 hours @ $50/hour.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Walnut Beast on August 07, 2020, 01:21:42 AM
Quote from: Magicman on August 06, 2020, 10:06:00 PM
Quote from: Brad_bb on August 06, 2020, 09:50:48 PMAnd, who handles beams by hand? That's just crazy. You must have a forked machine.
Maybe you "must" but in my job forked machines are not always available.  I use what the customer has.

I have sawn 14 twenty foot 6X6's so far on this job that I am presently sawing and all have been removed from the sawmill, loaded onto a trailer, offloaded and stickered by hand.  And yes, bf rate.
Magicman gets the job figured out and done anyway possible 👍👍👍
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: terrifictimbersllc on August 07, 2020, 03:35:37 AM
Quote from: moodnacreek on August 06, 2020, 09:21:21 PM
Quote from: ajkoontz on August 06, 2020, 02:58:08 PM
Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on August 06, 2020, 01:14:35 PM
If you do get into sawing for $ be careful about lowering your rates for beams vs 1x lumber. Just a heads up.
What's the 'gotcha' with sawing lumber vs beams that I am missing? Less time with the saw in the wood should cost less right? I'm not doubting you, just trying to learn something today.
Anybody can saw 1x for the most part. In hardwood for instance just going to 2x presents problems you don't have with 1x. Often logs start to spring when a board is sawn off and the thicker the cut to worse it is. Sawing 1x gives the sawyer more control and the ability to saw around problems.
And try making flat 3x hickory quickly. 
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: customsawyer on August 07, 2020, 06:20:16 AM
The other thing about cutting timbers vs. lumber I still have just as many logs and waste to deal with. Those things all take time.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Jeff on August 07, 2020, 07:26:55 AM
After having sawn beams for the pavilion we built this summer, I'm sitting here shaking my head and mouthing the word no no no at the notion sawing beams are easier. Hah!!

Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: teakwood on August 07, 2020, 08:47:02 AM
I did this beam on a manual sawmill by hands (well i loaded the beam onto the sawmill with the excavator because it's probably 250-300kg heavy, but on the sawmill it was all done by hand).
It's no joke to do beams, and this log was 1.5x the length the sawmill, so it gets more complicated by several times

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20200714_140517.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594766419)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20200714_143008.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594766010)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37555/IMG_20200714_155002.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594766113)
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Percy on August 07, 2020, 08:51:00 AM
This is a great thread!! Up here, years ago, while charging  a strait across board foot price for our own lumber from purchased logs, we started to notice we never had any beams in the yard but had  large herds of lumber....our lumber was priced too high and our beams were a steal of a deal,,,we now have a much more complicated per bdft price list....
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Southside on August 07, 2020, 09:09:37 AM
I have had customers try to beat me down on the rate when they want 2x vs 1x material, they use the "less cuts" argument.  What many folks who don't own a small business don't realize is that the fixed costs remain the same.  Insurance, real estate tax, real world depreciation, capital costs, advertising, those will all be there at the beginning - not the end - of the month no matter how much sawing I do, so I set my rate based upon what I believe will cover all of my costs, generate me an income, and leave a profit for the business.  

When I cut the sidewall of an $1,100 loader tire should I adjust my prices that month or week to accommodate that sudden expense?  Probably would not go over very well.  

I am in business to make money, not to keep busy.   
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: alan gage on August 07, 2020, 09:31:55 AM
Not to beat a dead horse on the beams vs boards debate but this week I've been sawing a lot of 1x lumber from some large logs. The majority of the "work" comes from loading and turning those large logs/cants (even with hydraulics) to get them squared up. Pulling off waste slabs that weigh a couple hundred pounds or more isn't an easy task. Once it's a cant it's easy to start taking boards out of it.

I try to end up with a square cant to work from, even if it's over 20" square, but often times I'll find that one or two edges are a bit off. When I'm cutting 1x material that will all be edged anyway I just shrug my shoulders and keep cutting. When I'm cutting beams I have to start futzing around to square everything up and keep it square.

Another thing I haven't seen mentioned is that if you open a large log and find an unexpected pocket of rot or a big nasty knot where you didn't expect it your beam might be ruined, which means you did all that work of opening the log for nothing. With 1x or 2x lumber you can cut around the defect to salvage something.

Alan
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: hedgerow on August 07, 2020, 10:10:20 AM
Quote from: Southside on August 07, 2020, 09:09:37 AM
I have had customers try to beat me down on the rate when they want 2x vs 1x material, they use the "less cuts" argument.  What many folks who don't own a small business don't realize is that the fixed costs remain the same.  Insurance, real estate tax, real world depreciation, capital costs, advertising, those will all be there at the beginning - not the end - of the month no matter how much sawing I do, so I set my rate based upon what I believe will cover all of my costs, generate me an income, and leave a profit for the business.  

When I cut the sidewall of an $1,100 loader tire should I adjust my prices that month or week to accommodate that sudden expense?  Probably would not go over very well.  

I am in business to make money, not to keep busy.  
This is so true. Years ago I had a large customer come to me looking for a rate drop as one of my competitor's had went to him with a cheaper rate to try to keep himself going during the slower time of the year. I told the customer I don't need any more { practice}. Customer went with the other guy and when things got busy the other guy got too busy to do the cheaper rate. Customer then wanted to come back to me. I told him I was too busy. 
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: longtime lurker on August 07, 2020, 06:35:49 PM
Look one of the things everybody needs to learn is you don't have to justify your pricing to anybody. It costs what it costs and if a guy down the road can do the same job cheaper than you ever could yourself.... go buy it off him, mark it up and sell it at a profit. Making money by helping your competition go broke of their own volition is never a bad idea.

The beams vs boards debate and pricing is simple...

The bigger the wood you want out the bigger the log you need in.... and good big logs aren't as common a commodity as y'all think, not at commercial volumes. Ask me about it... I struggle to get enough logs to fill orders all the time and it's not shortage of logs, it shortage of good logs.  I have 400 ton of log either in the yard or in transit today and I'm turning work away for want of logs.
Any old piece of trash will cut 4 x 1's for decking and siding... thats just a matter of punching through enough tonnage to get there. Heart free, gunbarrell straight 10 x 5's to suit highway bridge decking is another matter entirely.
Same with length... good big long logs are even scarcer. So then we get a premium for length on top of the premium for end section.

Your price out has to reflect the costs in. Large end section timber requires large logs, (and the same with quarter sawn boards), and larger logs deserve a premium. You can't sell the wood of veneer grade logs without paying veneer log prices and the customer has to deal with that.

How many cuts you make on a saw is only one factor to do with pricing. 
How long it takes you to make those cuts is another.

One of the things I get told by potential customers all the time is that there's some guy down the road who can do it cheaper. And that guy inevitably has a portable mill, works part time at it, and yanno - he probably can. Or that guy has a competitive commercial mill thats capable of doing more I can a month by wednesday each week. And I'm just over it.... this is my business, and I set my pricing not some other guy who either has 20k or 20 million invested in their business. 

Another thing I hear all the time is "I can't pay as much for that as those other guys because I don't get paid as much for my work as them" Uh huh.... so I should give you a discount because you aren't as skilled or as good at sales as them huh???  The ability of a customer not to make a profit doesnt mean I should limit my profit accordingly does it?

I've really learnt in the last year or so that one of the secrets to making money in this business is to just get a better class of customer, because the guy who wants to be the cheapest supplier to his customers inevitably wants you to be the cheapest supplier to him. Since learning that lesson (and yeah, I'm still learning lessons about this business today) I am doing less work than ever before, and turning over less cash.... but I'm actually more profitable.

Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: longtime lurker on August 07, 2020, 07:00:25 PM
Back on topic one of the things that hasn't been factored into this yet is job quality.

But - particularly cutting slabs on wide logs - there can be a lot of variation in job quality. And I'm talking saw wander. I wouldn't pay a premium to cut wide slabs on a WM 1000 for the simple reason that its the same disposable thin band as a smaller saw, and as we all know those bands arent that stiff. Now give me a guy with a 6" band thats dialled right in and I'd think about it.... for the reason that the extra $ spent on sawing would most likely equate to less $ spent later on fixing up crown or deflection issues.

That's just a thing I've noticed, and one of the things I sell here, when justifying why I'm expensive. You spend more $ getting me to slab your logs.... but you spend less $ later on getting them level so its all about the same. Cut quality, as opposed to just cut width or cut speed is something to take into account.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/32746/IMG_20190626_134231_28229.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1582080851)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/32746/IMG_20190625_211536.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1582086576)
 

Those slabs pictured are 5' wide. And even with some variation in shrinkage during drying.... the cost to bring them into level is way less than the price of levelling the same width slab when it's got  ¼" of variation between the highest point and the lowest.It's like the moulder argument.... you feed trash in you get trash out, and the best way to know how good you're cutting is to dress some of your own lumber right?

I just can't see a thin band saw like a WM 1000 as a good saw for premium slabs. We all know how well those bands can cut, and we all know how well they can deflect over knots etc even with the best new sharp band and a skilled operator. And thats one of the reasons why I agreed with Brad that the guy was probably asking too much.... not to make a judgement on his business model but as my own evaluation of the suitability of his equipment to give me a premium quality job.

Value for money is a thing. So $900 for half a dozen cuts with the guys big flash WM saw would be less likely to give me a value for money result than $900 for the same cuts with a big band.

Just the contrary $0.02 worth.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Walnut Beast on August 07, 2020, 11:49:35 PM
So have you actually seen slabs off of a WM 1000
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: longtime lurker on August 08, 2020, 01:38:14 AM
Actually no. But I don't have to - it's just a set of wheels and a motor to turn a 2 or 3 inch band.... and I've seen a whole lot of timber cut with those. 
Lets just say that - at least within the constraints of the species I saw - the results were uninspiring. The stiffness of a band is determined by gauge and depth and while you can probably cut a lot of good flat timber with a 3" band, when things get gnarly ... or it's my money being dropped for a good result ... it's not the toy of choice. 

Unless the guy is going to reduce his rate for less than stellar results. Deflection around knots or cranky grain is unacceptable IMHO, and its mostly caused by lack of saw. 


Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: moodnacreek on August 08, 2020, 08:21:04 AM
Yes, L.L. the more steel the better you can saw. Many are brainwashed about thin kerf and thin kerf is great when it is working especially in clear valuable stock. A heavy saw will cut straight when a thin saw may not cut at all in knotty slanted grain wood.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: carykong on August 08, 2020, 12:47:22 PM
Have not read every reply.  $1 per bdft for a 900 bdft log that can be milled in five hours may seem expensive and is expensive.  Yet, if these slabs can be sold for $2 a bdft or better. You may have a good business model.
I do remember that your mill was for personal use and the business aspect was incidental.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Walnut Beast on August 08, 2020, 06:06:44 PM
Quote from: longtime lurker on August 08, 2020, 01:38:14 AM
Actually no. But I don't have to - it's just a set of wheels and a motor to turn a 2 or 3 inch band.... and I've seen a whole lot of timber cut with those.
Lets just say that - at least within the constraints of the species I saw - the results were uninspiring. The stiffness of a band is determined by gauge and depth and while you can probably cut a lot of good flat timber with a 3" band, when things get gnarly ... or it's my money being dropped for a good result ... it's not the toy of choice.

Unless the guy is going to reduce his rate for less than stellar results. Deflection around knots or cranky grain is unacceptable IMHO, and its mostly caused by lack of saw.
So in your opinion your saying a chainsaw slabber is better for overall flatness vs wide thin kerf ?
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Ianab on August 08, 2020, 06:46:18 PM
Remember that some of the stuff LL cuts makes Live Oak look like a softwood.  ;)

You can cut it with carbide blades or a chain slabber. Thin kerf band mills are going to struggle. 
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: longtime lurker on August 09, 2020, 06:32:31 PM
Quote from: Walnut Beast on August 08, 2020, 06:06:44 PM
Quote from: longtime lurker on August 08, 2020, 01:38:14 AM
Actually no. But I don't have to - it's just a set of wheels and a motor to turn a 2 or 3 inch band.... and I've seen a whole lot of timber cut with those.
Lets just say that - at least within the constraints of the species I saw - the results were uninspiring. The stiffness of a band is determined by gauge and depth and while you can probably cut a lot of good flat timber with a 3" band, when things get gnarly ... or it's my money being dropped for a good result ... it's not the toy of choice.

Unless the guy is going to reduce his rate for less than stellar results. Deflection around knots or cranky grain is unacceptable IMHO, and its mostly caused by lack of saw.
So in your opinion your saying a chainsaw slabber is better for overall flatness vs wide thin kerf ?
My first choice for wide cuts is a wide band every time. 
Chainsaw slabbers are finicky... mine cuts very flat with about 1/8" crown over 5 foot of width but I'll be honest and say I don't know if I can replicate that performance when the current bar wears out. There's a fair bit of OCD on chain and bar setup and maintenance and stress reduction by log rolling in that too. And they're slow. I don't think wasteful though... kerf isn't as much an issue as it looks on paper.
Thin bands are at the limit of their performance envelope at that kind of width just keeping the gullets clean. In the right species it's a non issue but they are just not stiff enough to handle much variation in density. Slowing down cut speed is all you can do, and there are limits to how effective that can be. It's manageable with care, and some luck.
I'm not a believer in paying top dollar to hope someone gets lucky.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Walnut Beast on August 09, 2020, 06:45:34 PM
Nice input. What kind of finicky things don't you like with the slabber. Have you been around the Peterson  slabber. Any advantages, opinions 
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Walnut Beast on August 09, 2020, 06:51:23 PM
So LL with everything you have said both ways on thin kerf wide vs slabber if you where to buy a wide cut mill like a LX 250 or a chainsaw slabber what would it be 😂
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: longtime lurker on August 10, 2020, 12:47:50 AM
Okay so I am not familiar with the Peterson Slabber. I am with the Lucas plus I've played around with CSM's a forever ago.

Chain sharpening is critical. Just forget hand sharpening (and I am really good at hand sharpening) and go directly to grinder because you want every tooth the same length every time. It won't hold an edge as well as hand sharpened chain but it gives a better result and removes one variable from the mix when things go wrong.

Bar dressing is critical. That chain will run exactly as straight as you keep the bar rails. If you keep them flat it's another easy variable covered... I use one of those plastic Stihl file holder thingys and give it a swipe quite often as I'm changing chains out. ( I tend to buy chains a couple at a time and run them all together... that keeps the grinder setup simple because O'm not adjusting it for different tooth lengths)

Your mill needs to be set up with the rails parallel or you're cutting a twist into the wood. Same with any saw - if the bed isn't square you got problems.

Bar alignment is what I don't know how to get right first time. You can get it nearly right with a straightedge and tape measure but for really flat you just have to play about with shims and bolt tensions. My bar is about due to be rolled and... I'm going to take tensions with a torque wrench and see if I can dial it back into where it is now first time. But I'll be running a trash log first up because I somehow don't think its going to be that easy

Now heres the thing right... How portable do you want to be? All this stuff about swing mills and thin bands assumes a degree of portability.... but a WM 1000 isn't a portable saw. You'll pick up a wide band headrig somewhere and get it set up for way less $ than a new WM1000... and it'll eat either of the above for breakfast in both output and accuracy. Everyone talks about band maintenance costs and it isn't cheap but.... it isn't that expensive either in a bang for your buck kind of way. But probably not the way to go with urban salvage type logs that are likely to have metal.

My preferred option is to just cut boards. I ^%#^%#^ hate slabs. But I'm good at it, so we get offered a lot of work.
Title: Re: To me it was too much.
Post by: Walnut Beast on August 10, 2020, 06:02:59 AM
Thanks for all your insight into everything LL 👍👍