To me it was too much.

[Brad_bb]

Well today I stopped by a sawyer who has a WM1000.  He specializes in slabbing.  I wanted to find out how he'd charge to slab my log.  My Ash log is 11ft long, 50 at the base, 40 in the middle, and 48 at the crotch.  I used an average diameter because of the hourglass shape and figure 900 BF.  I could slab it with my chainsaw mill and it would take me a day or day and a half if I dilly dally.  I'm looking for 3"  slabs on the outside and 2.75" or so towards the middle.  It should yield about 10 slabs.  That would mean 11 slabbing cuts.  I would have to bring the log to him.
   I asked how he would charge?  He said $1/BF.  I said the log is 900BF, but I'm just looking for 10 to 11 slabbing cuts.  $900 he said.  That was more than I was thinking, I told him,  especially because it's only 11 slab cuts.  I'm also a WM owner...and he immediately asked something about selling wood.  I told him I only mill for myself.  I wanted him to understand that I was familiar with milling.  I asked how long would that take you (I figured about an hour).  He said "an hour".  So your rate is $900/hour.  I was expecting maybe half that, I told him.  He said nope, other sawyers charge $1/BF.  He said it's specialized work few people can do.  I explained that I did have my chainsaw mill and could do it, but I was hoping for a mutually beneficial outcome to save me some work.  He then started taking about the cost of his mill... but I thanked him and told him it's just not worth it to me at that price.  For $900 I'm better off doing it myself.  I would work for $900 a day.  
  Afterwords I got to thinking that his place didn't look very busy.  If someone offered me $450/hour...
I also was thinking, It's one thing If I'd asked him to mill it into one inch, edged boards, but the same price for 11 slabbing cuts?  Am I off here or?

 

[firefighter ontheside]

Whats the cost of a WM1000 versus something like LT35.  As with everyone else who is self employed, he is not just paying his own wages, but paying for the cost of doing business.  It seems high to me too, but I have to look at his side.  I have my price and I don't let people talk me down.  He had his price and didnt let someone talk him down.  

[Old Greenhorn]

On the one hand I am thinking "yeah, good luck to you, if you can get that kind of price, more power to you". But then I think about the times I either owned or operated very special equipment with limited applications and realize they get a ridiculous price because of the purchase cost and the fact that they don't run often. I understand his perspective, and maybe he has some sweet customers that keep him busy maybe 12 hours a week, but provide his full income in those 12 hours. In which case, he has a sweet life. Still, I think with all the slabbing work you do, if he had given you an attractive rate, you might have brought him a lot more work and sold your CSM gear.
Some guys think they are very special, but perhaps this guy has the clients to support that rate. Either he will do very well, or you may be able to buy his mill at a good price in a year or so. ;D
Given what I know about you and your skills, I would have said 'thanks, but no thanks' also. That $900. charge comes right off whatever you can sell them for, and while I am thinking about it $1./BF seems a bit high for just milling without any drying or handling or other processes.

[Walnut Beast]

If you where on the other end you would want 💰. What will the slabs be worth 🤔

[YellowHammer]

Interesting topic.  I could see him asking $1 but I also think that in short order he will either be rich or broke. 

I would have walked, also.  Then I would take that $900 and put a down payment on a Lucas or Peterson with a 6 foot slabber bar, and cornered the market by charging $0.75 per bdft.    ;D

A half a dozen good jobs and the mill is paid for.  

[Walnut Beast]

Whats the cost of a WM1000 versus something like LT35.  As with everyone else who is self employed, he is not just paying his own wages, but paying for the cost of doing business.  It seems high to me too, but I have to look at his side.  I have my price and I don't let people talk me down.  He had his price and didnt let someone talk him down.  

That is well said. 

[Walnut Beast]

It does seem he could barter a little. If he would have said 575.00 would you have done it

[Walnut Beast]

Interesting topic.  I could see him asking $1 but I also think that in short order he will either be rich or broke.

I would have walked, also.  Then I would take that $900 and put a down payment on a Lucas or Peterson with a 6 foot slabber bar, and cornered the market by charging $0.75 per bdft.    ;D

A half a dozen good jobs and the mill is paid for.  

It is a interesting topic. I wouldn't pay that either. And what YHammer says is what I plan on doing when I get into my big stuff 

[Sawmill Man]

 Starting to sound like everyone thinks it easy to saw through 50 inches of anything in a straight line and then load 600 lbs of table top slab that customer doesnt want a scratch on it. Every thing about slabbing is to me more expensive and time consuming  overall complicated compared to sawing siding and framing lumber,which i would rather do.

[Brad_bb]

Thanks for the responses guys.  

I could see him asking $1 but I also think that in short order he will either be rich or broke.  

Yeah, that's what I thought.  I also thought he must not be in a hurry to pay off the mill if he's turning such business away.  As i said, his yard wasn't rife with logs needing to be milled.  I highly doubt he is anywhere near capacity.

@Walnut Beast, I don't know what the slabs are worth because I don't sell anything.  Never have.  I have given  away a few to a couple acquaintances.   I don't think the value of the slabs should factor into it for him.  He should set his price by his costs and what he thinks is reasonable to make on top of that.  He was hinting at what I could sell them for.  I told him I don't sell anything, ( plus I think that's really none of his business).  If I put work into a slab, dry it, flatten it, sell it, plus it was my log... then I deserve to make money based on my costs, reasonable profit, and the market.  (Though I have no plans to do this).  This is the last of my slab logs, and the slabs I have now should last me til I die. I have multiple tables to make for my new house, my mom's new house, our barn tack room, plus counter tops, and a few more tables.  I'll probably make one for my GC and our horse trainer.  I'll also have table material for my nieces by the time they are old enough.

I honestly have the impression that his pricing was based more on ego than anything else, the way he came off.  As my GC always says "Pigs get fat, Hogs get slaughtered!"

[barbender]

I wonder what he would have said if you  had asked him an hourly rate first? I doubt he would've came back at $900/hr..

[Brad_bb]

@Sawmill Man , I'm not so sure he even moves the slabs, other than the first slab will have to come off before rolling so there is a flat bottom, and you'd use a forklift to remove that slab.  Slices the whole log consecutively.  It would have been up to me to take home and restack/sticker and brush the dust out.

[Brad_bb]

@barbender , that was part of the conversation when he confirmed it would take him an hour to slab...and his price was still $900.  Point being he was clear in that he didn't have an hourly rate, only a BF rate.  Not right to me given that the same log BF could take and hour to mill or 3 hours depending on what you want out of it.  I'm sure if I had agree to $900 but said I wanted all 4/4 boards he would have said NO.

[Southside]

Just playing devil's advocate here. If you spend a day slabbing the log and in the process blow up your saw, does the $900 become a great deal? 

Sometimes customers get a "I don't want to do the job, so you have to make it worth my while" price. 

[terrifictimbersllc]

I slabbed mostly with my Peterson for 8 yrs.  Charged by square foot area sawn. At the end, $2.25 per square foot, $2.50 if cut width over 42".  Customer had to have log in good setup area, and remove slabs as I sawed them. Had some commercial customers who I would discount 10-15% if things went well.  

I used my Excel calculator on your log.  22" radius, 11 ft, 3/8 kerf, split pith, 3" slabs.

My estimate would have been 415 square feet sawn area, 13 cuts to give 12 slabs 17-48" wide. At $2.25, total $933. Not counting a little more for three cuts over 42".  

If I run the same numbers using 1/8" kerf, I get 435 square feet sawn area, not a lot different.

415 square feet of sawn area, x 3" thick slabs, that is 1245 board feet. I get 1017 BF for 44" x 11' international scale. Substantial overrun because of thickness and full width.

This job would have taken me a whole day at a residential customer's. Not counting setup/packing up/driving actual sawing maybe 5 hr if slabs removed promptly and things went well which they often didnt.  I would not have charged time for hitting metal or difficulty with my milling.

You didnt say if the sawing would take two people or not.  1 hour 12 slabs is 5 minutes each including removing slabs, unloading/loading, setting up log.  Doesnt seem realistic to me. I wouldnt think he could process log aftr log from a customer's trailer at that pace.

Not every phone call turned into a job for me with this mill.  Many obstacles for residential customers to overcome, the usual three...logs are heavy, lumber is heavy, wood has to be dried, and then the cost.
My charging was too much even with some discount for some sawmills who would otherwise have been customers. But I did OK, sold the mill with about 250 hours on the engine and paid for it more than twice over, but had to work for that. But I was at where Southside said, doing no one a favor if my charging left me not wanting to take jobs. 

I guess I conclude that you got your answer, it is too much for you to pay, but apparently not too much for him to charge.  There's a lot built in to his pricing and that's where he is.  Maybe you try this log with him, show him what kind of customer you are, and nicely ask in the future if he's interested in some repeat volume with you.

[Walnut Beast]

Peterson had there live demo days and my interest was the slabbing. In the video they had the WPF 10 with clip on slabber. That's there slowest Running unit at 1900 rpm. On a redwood log that was 25.5 inches wide and 6 feet long it took it 5 minutes and 20 seconds. The dedicated slabber runs 6,500 rpm and it slabbed the same log in one minute fifty eight seconds. 

[terrifictimbersllc]

I had the WPF10.  Not long in, I put a smaller pulley on the input shaft of the gearbox, just for slabbing. This increased the slabber speed and cutting rate dramatically. It was necessary to put the original pulley back on to use it as a swing mill. 

A swing mill has to be set up for the blade speed.  The 8" mill is a good match for both blade and slabbing chain speed.  The 10" mill has to run slower because the blade diameter is larger.

[Peter Drouin]

I get cheap customers come in and try to talk me down all the time. Just had one guy send a truckload of logs in all 16'. He sees the load and wants me to cut them all in half for him.
I said sure for $$ more. 
Too much He will do it himself. Ok I said. When you go to have something done for yourself that you can't do don't complain he's too much $$$
If you were in my yard and only wanted to pay 1/2 price I will show you the door.
What do you think the blades cost on the thing. did you talk about hitting iron.
One thing nice about having a higher price he won't have you coming in and wasting his time anymore.

[Walnut Beast]

Hey Terrific what would you say was the average width with all the different slabbing jobs you did

[terrifictimbersllc]

Avg diameter log, maybe 40?

I had an lt40 super the whole time wouldn't have used the slabber if that could do the job.

[terrifictimbersllc]

I don't think Brad's question is out of line, nor the Sawyers charging. In the end, it's just wood and work. There's no right answer.

I had a regular customer who often said "everyone else's gig looks great until you try to do it yourself"

[Walnut Beast]

Thank for all your information 👍

[Bruno of NH]

To me it's the moving of the log and handling of the slabs.
I think the price was in the ball park.
That's just my opinion there is a cost of doing business. 

[longtime lurker]

I quoted a job yesterday - seriously big one - and I know they're going to come back and tell me "too expensive."
And I know I'm not going to budge because their "too expensive" is my "cost + a reasonable margin"
Then they're going to tell me what they cam get it done for up the road
Then I'm going to remind them that they're talking to me for a reason.
And I'll either be busy sawing for them a month later or I'll be sawing some other job.... either way it'll be sawing at a price that sees my bills will get paid.

It's all fun and games until you've got every cent you possess tied up in property and equipment, and I'd be loath to say anyone else doing a job I can't/don't want to is too expensive. (except when they're too expensive lol)  FWIW I think the guy was too expensive.... you buy a bigger faster saw to run more an hour, but usually that more an hour equates to a lower cost of production. But specialised is specialised too so.... what its worth is individual dependant I feel.

You'll save yourself a couple hundred $ with the CSM allowing for the cost of your labour and good for you. (assuming nothing goes wrong and you dont need a chiropractors visit or 3 after). I've had that internal debate a lot lately myself..... just stay small /work hard / live simply / if I don't borrow money I don't have to pay it back. Problem is I don't see that as a way to do anything but work yourself to death in this industry anymore.

[moodnacreek]

A log like that needs to be sawn as cheap as possible. It is hardwood, old, looks decayed and has a crotch in it. The planks will probably twist and split. After 3 years on sticks only the sound flat ones will sell and the others will have to be shortened and resawn. To start out spending $ 900 would be crazy. Get out the chainsaw and files.