To me it was too much.

[ajkoontz]

See I chalked it up to the guy just didn't want to deal with me because he didn't give me any of the reasons listed above. Makes more sense now. I always understood the concept of the guy with the highest price per hour might be the best deal because of various reasons but I always figured everything else being equal, beams should be less work than 1x. Now I know better.

I'll add, most of the how-to sawing videos out there are marketing to sell sawmills and such so the ratio of videos making sawyering look easy to showing how it really is skews heavily towards making everything look easy. That's why I lurk here from time to time to get the real scoop on sawing.

[Ianab]

I'll add, most of the how-to sawing videos out there are marketing to sell sawmills and such so the ratio of videos making sawyering look easy to showing how it really is skews heavily towards making everything look easy

If it was easy, everyone would be doing it :D

At least on the forum you see the breakdowns, the miss-cuts (or at least some of them), the metal strikes etc. And when someone posts a pic of their end of the day beer, they usually deserve it. 

[Bruno of NH]

Saw some beams for a picky Timber framer or a high end builder and load them in a U- Haul box truck like I see Peter Drouin do once  .
You will understand why

[stavebuyer]

The man with the WM1000 might have priced it at $900 because he didn't want the job??

[moodnacreek]

If you do get into sawing for $ be careful about lowering your rates for beams vs 1x lumber. Just a heads up.

What's the 'gotcha' with sawing lumber vs beams that I am missing? Less time with the saw in the wood should cost less right? I'm not doubting you, just trying to learn something today.

Anybody can saw 1x for the most part. In hardwood for instance just going to 2x presents problems you don't have with 1x. Often logs start to spring when a board is sawn off and the thicker the cut to worse it is. Sawing 1x gives the sawyer more control and the ability to saw around problems.

[Brad_bb]

I've milled a lot of beams in the last 5 years.  I've also milled a lot of  2x and 1x in the last 6 months.  I can tell you that I can cut beams a lot faster (manual mill).  And, who handles beams by hand?  That's just crazy.  You must have a forked machine.  With my little tractor forklift, I easily move beams.  

@stavebuyer   Slabbing is what he does!  And judging by his yard, didn't look booked up.  I originally heard about him from another sawyer nearby(LT50 owner).  What he originally told me gave me the impression that he didn't have the best impression and he never ended up taking him work.

[Magicman]

And, who handles beams by hand? That's just crazy. You must have a forked machine.

Maybe you "must" but in my job forked machines are not always available.  I use what the customer has.

I have sawn 14 twenty foot 6X6's so far on this job that I am presently sawing and all have been removed from the sawmill, loaded onto a trailer, offloaded and stickered by hand.  And yes, bf rate.

[Larry]

And, who handles beams by hand?  That's just crazy.  You must have a forked machine.  With my little tractor forklift, I easily move beams.  

I agree handling beams by hand is not smart.  Smashed fingers, dropping on ones toes, hurting a back, and who knows what else.  At the same time one doesn't necessary need a forked machine.  I sometimes use my dragback with a roller table to load them directly into a trailer backed up.  I try to saw smarter as its in my genes to be quite lazy!

Back to the slabbing.  I talked with a friend today that took a similar size walnut log to a guy that runs a D&L slabber.  The bill, 14 hours @ $50/hour.

[Walnut Beast]

And, who handles beams by hand? That's just crazy. You must have a forked machine.

Maybe you "must" but in my job forked machines are not always available.  I use what the customer has.

I have sawn 14 twenty foot 6X6's so far on this job that I am presently sawing and all have been removed from the sawmill, loaded onto a trailer, offloaded and stickered by hand.  And yes, bf rate.

Magicman gets the job figured out and done anyway possible 👍👍👍

[terrifictimbersllc]

If you do get into sawing for $ be careful about lowering your rates for beams vs 1x lumber. Just a heads up.

What's the 'gotcha' with sawing lumber vs beams that I am missing? Less time with the saw in the wood should cost less right? I'm not doubting you, just trying to learn something today.

Anybody can saw 1x for the most part. In hardwood for instance just going to 2x presents problems you don't have with 1x. Often logs start to spring when a board is sawn off and the thicker the cut to worse it is. Sawing 1x gives the sawyer more control and the ability to saw around problems.

And try making flat 3x hickory quickly. 

[customsawyer]

The other thing about cutting timbers vs. lumber I still have just as many logs and waste to deal with. Those things all take time.

[Jeff]

After having sawn beams for the pavilion we built this summer, I'm sitting here shaking my head and mouthing the word no no no at the notion sawing beams are easier. Hah!!

[teakwood]

I did this beam on a manual sawmill by hands (well i loaded the beam onto the sawmill with the excavator because it's probably 250-300kg heavy, but on the sawmill it was all done by hand).
It's no joke to do beams, and this log was 1.5x the length the sawmill, so it gets more complicated by several times

[Percy]

This is a great thread!! Up here, years ago, while charging  a strait across board foot price for our own lumber from purchased logs, we started to notice we never had any beams in the yard but had  large herds of lumber....our lumber was priced too high and our beams were a steal of a deal,,,we now have a much more complicated per bdft price list....

[Southside]

I have had customers try to beat me down on the rate when they want 2x vs 1x material, they use the "less cuts" argument.  What many folks who don't own a small business don't realize is that the fixed costs remain the same.  Insurance, real estate tax, real world depreciation, capital costs, advertising, those will all be there at the beginning - not the end - of the month no matter how much sawing I do, so I set my rate based upon what I believe will cover all of my costs, generate me an income, and leave a profit for the business.  

When I cut the sidewall of an $1,100 loader tire should I adjust my prices that month or week to accommodate that sudden expense?  Probably would not go over very well.  

I am in business to make money, not to keep busy.   

[alan gage]

Not to beat a dead horse on the beams vs boards debate but this week I've been sawing a lot of 1x lumber from some large logs. The majority of the "work" comes from loading and turning those large logs/cants (even with hydraulics) to get them squared up. Pulling off waste slabs that weigh a couple hundred pounds or more isn't an easy task. Once it's a cant it's easy to start taking boards out of it.

I try to end up with a square cant to work from, even if it's over 20" square, but often times I'll find that one or two edges are a bit off. When I'm cutting 1x material that will all be edged anyway I just shrug my shoulders and keep cutting. When I'm cutting beams I have to start futzing around to square everything up and keep it square.

Another thing I haven't seen mentioned is that if you open a large log and find an unexpected pocket of rot or a big nasty knot where you didn't expect it your beam might be ruined, which means you did all that work of opening the log for nothing. With 1x or 2x lumber you can cut around the defect to salvage something.

Alan

[hedgerow]

I have had customers try to beat me down on the rate when they want 2x vs 1x material, they use the "less cuts" argument.  What many folks who don't own a small business don't realize is that the fixed costs remain the same.  Insurance, real estate tax, real world depreciation, capital costs, advertising, those will all be there at the beginning - not the end - of the month no matter how much sawing I do, so I set my rate based upon what I believe will cover all of my costs, generate me an income, and leave a profit for the business.  

When I cut the sidewall of an $1,100 loader tire should I adjust my prices that month or week to accommodate that sudden expense?  Probably would not go over very well.  

I am in business to make money, not to keep busy.  

This is so true. Years ago I had a large customer come to me looking for a rate drop as one of my competitor's had went to him with a cheaper rate to try to keep himself going during the slower time of the year. I told the customer I don't need any more { practice}. Customer went with the other guy and when things got busy the other guy got too busy to do the cheaper rate. Customer then wanted to come back to me. I told him I was too busy. 

[longtime lurker]

Look one of the things everybody needs to learn is you don't have to justify your pricing to anybody. It costs what it costs and if a guy down the road can do the same job cheaper than you ever could yourself.... go buy it off him, mark it up and sell it at a profit. Making money by helping your competition go broke of their own volition is never a bad idea.

The beams vs boards debate and pricing is simple...

The bigger the wood you want out the bigger the log you need in.... and good big logs aren't as common a commodity as y'all think, not at commercial volumes. Ask me about it... I struggle to get enough logs to fill orders all the time and it's not shortage of logs, it shortage of good logs.  I have 400 ton of log either in the yard or in transit today and I'm turning work away for want of logs.
Any old piece of trash will cut 4 x 1's for decking and siding... thats just a matter of punching through enough tonnage to get there. Heart free, gunbarrell straight 10 x 5's to suit highway bridge decking is another matter entirely.
Same with length... good big long logs are even scarcer. So then we get a premium for length on top of the premium for end section.

Your price out has to reflect the costs in. Large end section timber requires large logs, (and the same with quarter sawn boards), and larger logs deserve a premium. You can't sell the wood of veneer grade logs without paying veneer log prices and the customer has to deal with that.

How many cuts you make on a saw is only one factor to do with pricing. 
How long it takes you to make those cuts is another.

One of the things I get told by potential customers all the time is that there's some guy down the road who can do it cheaper. And that guy inevitably has a portable mill, works part time at it, and yanno - he probably can. Or that guy has a competitive commercial mill thats capable of doing more I can a month by wednesday each week. And I'm just over it.... this is my business, and I set my pricing not some other guy who either has 20k or 20 million invested in their business. 

Another thing I hear all the time is "I can't pay as much for that as those other guys because I don't get paid as much for my work as them" Uh huh.... so I should give you a discount because you aren't as skilled or as good at sales as them huh???  The ability of a customer not to make a profit doesnt mean I should limit my profit accordingly does it?

I've really learnt in the last year or so that one of the secrets to making money in this business is to just get a better class of customer, because the guy who wants to be the cheapest supplier to his customers inevitably wants you to be the cheapest supplier to him. Since learning that lesson (and yeah, I'm still learning lessons about this business today) I am doing less work than ever before, and turning over less cash.... but I'm actually more profitable.

[longtime lurker]

Back on topic one of the things that hasn't been factored into this yet is job quality.

But - particularly cutting slabs on wide logs - there can be a lot of variation in job quality. And I'm talking saw wander. I wouldn't pay a premium to cut wide slabs on a WM 1000 for the simple reason that its the same disposable thin band as a smaller saw, and as we all know those bands arent that stiff. Now give me a guy with a 6" band thats dialled right in and I'd think about it.... for the reason that the extra $ spent on sawing would most likely equate to less $ spent later on fixing up crown or deflection issues.

That's just a thing I've noticed, and one of the things I sell here, when justifying why I'm expensive. You spend more $ getting me to slab your logs.... but you spend less $ later on getting them level so its all about the same. Cut quality, as opposed to just cut width or cut speed is something to take into account.



 

 

Those slabs pictured are 5' wide. And even with some variation in shrinkage during drying.... the cost to bring them into level is way less than the price of levelling the same width slab when it's got  ¼" of variation between the highest point and the lowest.It's like the moulder argument.... you feed trash in you get trash out, and the best way to know how good you're cutting is to dress some of your own lumber right?

I just can't see a thin band saw like a WM 1000 as a good saw for premium slabs. We all know how well those bands can cut, and we all know how well they can deflect over knots etc even with the best new sharp band and a skilled operator. And thats one of the reasons why I agreed with Brad that the guy was probably asking too much.... not to make a judgement on his business model but as my own evaluation of the suitability of his equipment to give me a premium quality job.

Value for money is a thing. So $900 for half a dozen cuts with the guys big flash WM saw would be less likely to give me a value for money result than $900 for the same cuts with a big band.

Just the contrary $0.02 worth.

[Walnut Beast]

So have you actually seen slabs off of a WM 1000

[longtime lurker]

Actually no. But I don't have to - it's just a set of wheels and a motor to turn a 2 or 3 inch band.... and I've seen a whole lot of timber cut with those. 
Lets just say that - at least within the constraints of the species I saw - the results were uninspiring. The stiffness of a band is determined by gauge and depth and while you can probably cut a lot of good flat timber with a 3" band, when things get gnarly ... or it's my money being dropped for a good result ... it's not the toy of choice. 

Unless the guy is going to reduce his rate for less than stellar results. Deflection around knots or cranky grain is unacceptable IMHO, and its mostly caused by lack of saw. 

[moodnacreek]

Yes, L.L. the more steel the better you can saw. Many are brainwashed about thin kerf and thin kerf is great when it is working especially in clear valuable stock. A heavy saw will cut straight when a thin saw may not cut at all in knotty slanted grain wood.

[carykong]

Have not read every reply.  $1 per bdft for a 900 bdft log that can be milled in five hours may seem expensive and is expensive.  Yet, if these slabs can be sold for $2 a bdft or better. You may have a good business model.
I do remember that your mill was for personal use and the business aspect was incidental.

[Walnut Beast]

Actually no. But I don't have to - it's just a set of wheels and a motor to turn a 2 or 3 inch band.... and I've seen a whole lot of timber cut with those.
Lets just say that - at least within the constraints of the species I saw - the results were uninspiring. The stiffness of a band is determined by gauge and depth and while you can probably cut a lot of good flat timber with a 3" band, when things get gnarly ... or it's my money being dropped for a good result ... it's not the toy of choice.

Unless the guy is going to reduce his rate for less than stellar results. Deflection around knots or cranky grain is unacceptable IMHO, and its mostly caused by lack of saw.

So in your opinion your saying a chainsaw slabber is better for overall flatness vs wide thin kerf ?

[Ianab]

Remember that some of the stuff LL cuts makes Live Oak look like a softwood.  ;)

You can cut it with carbide blades or a chain slabber. Thin kerf band mills are going to struggle.