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Vardo Gypsy Wagon Build-modern

Started by DMcCoy, January 24, 2020, 08:57:49 AM

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DMcCoy

I'm going to build a vardo, modern, trailer-able.  For those who don't know a vardo is a Gypsy wagon.  Used in Europe in the late 1800's early 1900's as a traveling tiny house, pulled by a horse.  Usually very ornate, I do not plan anything with that much decorative paint.  Circus wagons would also be considered a vardo and the old Pullman train cars have similarities point being the mollicroft.

I actually intend to use this on the road.  There are many styles.  I'm building what is called a Ledge.  Wood stove, propane HW and cooking,  shower, 12v and 120v power. Queen or king(?) bed.  Road legal.  Stained glass, artsy....

I took a 3 day class at Port Townsend School of Woodworking on Vardo design and construction last fall.  Part of the class we toured and inspected a few vardos in the local Port Townsend area.  Port Townsend is a noteworthy area for wooden boat design and construction.  Vardo construction shares more details with boats than houses, if you ignore weight, which you can't(!)  

Google 'Trillium Vardo' to see an elaborate 'Bow Top' build by Jim Tolpin.  An amazing creation that needs to be in a private collection somewhere, certainly not towed on a road, for fear of chipped paint(!)  There were a few we saw that were far more practical and still had the cool factor.  Googling Modern Vardo will get you another beautiful build by Greg Ryan on the east coast.

Our instructor Steve Habersetzer has built a few vardo's but linking might get me into copyright issues and he keeps a very low profile, unfortunately, because he has one build that I want to mimic and pictures are few and far between.  I get it, after learning and doing everything needed to build one in this age of the internet the onslaught of information seekers might certainly take a lot of fun away, and I will never sell plans.  This was actually a course topic.

This will be a multi year project.  I have been learning the skills I did not have before; bentwood lamination's, fine mortise and tenon joinery, and an overall increase in accuracy needed.   I started to mill lumber in a big way this week for all the non standard dimensions it will require.  

I will try and do regular updates with a few pictures.



Dan_Shade

I'm excited to follow along with your progress. 

Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

sprucebunny

I'll be looking forward to updates, also.

There is a man in this area that collects antique horse-drawn wagons and displays them at the Fair so I have seen the type of wagon you're talking about.
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

Ljohnsaw

John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

breederman

Very interesting, it will be a fun project for you I'm sure. Also interesting was this thread was the # 3 hit on the duck duck go search you suggested. 
Together we got this !

DMcCoy

Here as one sketch I have of the rear profile.  Arches are needed for the roof, mollicroft, door and windows. Traditionally the knee braces are made of wood, mine will be steel because I like the look better.


 
I decided to tackle the door and window arches first and for needed practice.  My first form was segmented and left dents and slight straight areas between, so I built a solid form out of some scrap plywood.  I'm using clear Western red cedar, 1/4" pieces, 6 layers.  These are non load bearing but part of the framing.

I researched springback and was disappointed with what I found, including a "formula" which wasn't good.  I read about "creep" of wood glues on bentwood lamination's.  One comment I read in hindsight was the best.  Take your best shot, plan for some springback and then modify your design to fit.  Yeah, well....In all seriousness it all depends.  Type of wood, thickness, radius.  You just have to built a form and try it.

I wanted a 24" radius so I built my jig at 23 1/2".  It did spring back a little and I think I'm close.  Spring back was uniform between pieces which was a relief.  I used a layer of packing tape to keep my form reusable.  This is NOT too many clamps.  Getting the lamination's to stay in place is like herding stray cats.  I think I will want help with the roof rafters(9' long 14 layers)


 


 

Making 1 artsy metal knee brace was easy, making the other 9 match was a lot of fussy work.  The curve must be spot on.  This bracket will tie together the base(floor) knee wall, ledge, and the upper wall.



 


 

It might be a awhile before I get much more to post.  I have to wait for lumber to dry...





Don P

Polyurethane glue should be better for creep/structural. The thinner the plies the less springback.



scsmith42

Quote from: Don P on January 26, 2020, 09:44:03 PM
Polyurethane glue should be better for creep/structural. The thinner the plies the less springback.
Don, what about resourcinal?
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Don P

That's better yet. It is the standby structural adhesive, waterproof, no creep. Polyurethanes are being used in CLT construction but "approved" stuff is still not available to us. The over the counter stuff is still waterproof and creep free compared to the PVA's (titebond, etc).

I really like the style of these, our old portable chicken coop was inspired by a gypsy wagon.

DMcCoy

Glues and lamination numbers were a tough one for me to decide upon.  Your absolutely correct the thinner lamination's have less springback.  I went with 1/4" for easier bending, easy math and a balance between how much cutting and gluing.  I used Titebond 3 which is far thinner than 2 and has more open work time.  I was careful to coat both sides of each ply uniformly to get a fully wet joint. I still had glue harden on my fingers by the time I was tightening the last clamps, I must be slow, or need a bigger brush...  I doubled the drying time they said before releasing to 48hrs.  They are at least consistent between each other.

I did look into Polyurethane and resorcinol.  I have used both in the past.  The decisions are not always easy for all kinds of reasons. I had a cross over point of 'good enough' and 'workability'.  

I will have some scarf (scarph?) joints and from what I have read the polyurethane is the only way to go, because of end grain absorption and non shrinking.  I can make those quick enough to get them aligned and clamped before the glue sets.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the issue of creep. The idea that dried glue can both loose it's bond yet maintain it doesn't make sense to me.  I looked at a few 10-12 yr. old bentwood laminations in Port Townsend and they looked fine.  I specifically inspected for delamination, cracks that would indicate creep.  I couldn't find anything and these were built using titebond 2.  This creep issue is a major fear of mine because of the work involved with the entire project.  I wonder if creep is from under-cured glue.  I doubled my release time in hopes of avoiding anything like creep.



Don P

Creep is not shear but plasticity, the ability to move or slip over time without delaminating or shearing. PVA's have not been able to get structural use approval because of this plastic creep. Resorcinol has been the main glue for things like glulam beams for decades. Specific polyurethane glues have gotten approval in more recent years. Henkel (loc-tite's parent co) makes one, Franklin (titebond's parent co) makes another.  Melamines also have approval but I've never used any. None of those glues creep.

Another form of creep we see pretty much every day is in a sagging old building, that permanent sag does not recover if you pull the sagged member out of the building. When we design say a joist it is designed within the elastic range of the material, apply load, it deflects, remove load, it recovers its original shape. This applies to wood or steel for that matter. if the beam is steel I should design within the elastic range but if it is overloaded it enters the plastic range where it does not fail but it does not recover its original shape when the load is removed. That range is wide in steel, very narrow in wood. But, in wood a moderately overloaded beam will take on that deflection set, creep, sag.

Zooming way in, hydrogen bonds hold a lot of stuff in this world together, us for example. Bending is hydrogen bonds jumping from molecule to molecule, when too many jump to a new home they hold the group in a new position and don't jump back, it has crept. TMI :D

Brad_bb

Do you have a Cobb (Gypsy) to pull it with?
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

DMcCoy

Thanks Don for the explanation, that makes sense to me now.   I might rethink this, I have time while lumber is drying.  A segmented vertically laminated curved arch would lend itself to shorter glue open time better than horizontal lamination's. Even with help I don't think I could get a 14 layer lamination together in 30 min. or maybe a huge group of people could get that done, or do a few layers at a time.  Lots to think over. Thanks again.

No horses, I can feed the truck only when I need it.  I'm using a 16' tandem axle trailer, electric brakes, commercially built, road legal.

Don P

I've done arches sort of like that for trim over circle top doors. I laid the pieces side by side and applied glue to them all at the same time using a scrap of formica as a spreader to quickly get them all wetted out quickly. Then stacked them and began with the center clamp and 2 people working our way out in both directions clamping it up.

Darn, checking my gallery I don't have a pic of the trim on the other side of this door. It was ~1/4"x1" oak strips glued into an arch 3-1/2" wide. This side is the factory brickmold, looks like just sawn out of a panel.




DMcCoy

Nice door!  I was wondering if maybe my radius is too small but yours is smaller.  Do you recall what glue you used?  You applied glue to just 1 side? Laminate thickness?  Sorry lots of questions, bentwood lamination's is something I have no experience with.  I have all 3 of the small arches done and I have been watching them. :(  Slowly they are expanding, they are days apart in age but it shows 1-2-3.  Cedar maybe a poor choice for wood type for this application.  I can't recall the wood used in the ones I toured, dumb, should have paid attention to that as well.

Ljohnsaw

Would it help to steam bend first and after set/cooled/dried, go back and glue?
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

btulloh

I went through a bent-lamination phase a few years ago.  Furniture type things.  I used pretty much the method DonP describes for applying the glue.  Resorcinal or DAP Urea Resin Glue.  I wouldn't trust a PVA glue in that application, plus the working time is just not long enough.  You might be able to get away with the creep since those members are captive after they're installed in the wagon, but I'd certainly switch glue if I were you.

The application method DonP describes works good with a small roller, brush, or formica chip.  Be fast, be messy.  I used packing tape on the forms and wrapped the assembly in saran wrap as well.  Best to cut strips 1/2 inch or so wider than finished width and then trim.  Trim on edge on a bandsaw, then run through the jointer.  Rig up a little cradle and rip to finished width on the table saw.

Neat project you got there.  Nice job on the metal work.  Good luck and keep those pictures coming.
HM126

DMcCoy

I considered steam bending,  I would like to keep my steps to a minimum if possible.
The roof arches are more gentle and thicker (deeper) which should help.
I will pick up some of the DAP(weldwood) glue and cut another set.
Thanks!

DMcCoy

Okay, Back to the shop finally.  I did get some Weldwood Urea-formaldehyde glue for the scarfing I did.  Man that is some glue!  Literally hard as a rock.
I started a blog for this project at the request of my kids.  mccoyvardo.blogspot.com   It is anything but consistent with peoples ability to find it, some can others cannot.

Changes to the plan-  I reduced the length to 12' from 16'.  Split the bed area in a way that is hard to describe.  Still continuing with everything else.

The base-  Let in floor joists into the rim joist w/Kreg screws and TB 3.  Corner blocking for rigidity and fastening to the trailer.  Jig made from oak pallet boards, used a small PC laminate trimmer with a square base to make the mortise.


 


 


 

DMcCoy

 


Corner bracket is bolted in + glue.


 
Rounded the shoulders on the floor joist.


 

DMcCoy

 Scarf cutting jig for the table saw.  Fast, accurate but dangerous.  With that much blade exposed the bottom of the blade exits the cut long before the top - and we all watch the top. :(





 


 

DMcCoy

 Mock up of the floor joist/rim joist junction.  The dowel is black walnut - more about it later.


 
I used a machinist 90 block to hold the corner blocks for counter boring with a forstner bit on the 45.  This IS NOT overkill.


 


 

btulloh

Very nice work. I was wondering how this wagon was progressing. Really interesting project. Thanks for the update. 
HM126

DMcCoy

Thanks btulloh.
I plan on covering the floor with T&G douglas fir and treating all the under side floor framing with pure tung oil cut 50% with mineral spirits. I have days of applying finish to various parts coming up.
From the base up the structures are; floor. knee wall. ledge, main wall, roof, mollycroft.

Knee wall framing-  Basically a truss, Warren style as near as I can figure out.  The top and bottom plate are douglas fir(DF).  Some of the studs are DF and others are Western Red Cedar(WRC).  All the diagonals are WRC.  I used WRC to save on weight. 



The studs are all through mortise and tenon, the diagonals are just glued in place.


 


btulloh

Totally awesome. 

Lots of inside corners. Applying finish with HVLP or rag&brush?  Sounds like work either way. How many coats to get it like you want it?  Or just going with the thin stuff to get good penetration and seal it up a bit?

I'd be glad to come help you with finish but I'm busy that day.  :D
HM126

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